Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
--- Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2/8/07, Sriram J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 2/8/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 08-Feb-07, at 4:38 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > > > > > > > > this mailing list and I did not see a very > public discussion on the > > > > > mailing list before everything was done and > over. The "committee" > > > > > related decisions of ILUGD have been mostly > off the list. > > > > > > > > not so - agenda is always disclosed on the > list. discussion is asked > > > > for. Even for 'committee meetings' all are > invited. And decision is > > > > by majority. Minutes and list of attendees are > also always posted on > > > > the list. You need to retract. > > > > > > > > what Anupam has said is common of any democracy > including India where the > > people who never vote are the most vocal critics > of any decision. > > > > IMHO ILUGD should introduce postal ballots so > that people can influence > > the majority opinion without actually taking the > trouble to be part of the > > majority. > > > You meant to be satirical but I think your > suggestion is an excellent > one! Well during election times do you see people > being asked to come > to Delhi and visit the Rashtrapati Bhavan in case > they want to be a > part of the electoral process? Before taking any > decision, you do not > take a decision and "inform" the members of the > same, you give the > members the details of the situation and "ask" for > their opinion and > continue to do so until some semblance of a > consensus on a possible > course of action emerges. Especially for ILUGD which > started out as a > mailing list, why have voting / decision-making > behind closed doors. > It's not very difficult to have an online voting > setup, why don't we > have that? > ilugd meetings are not conducted behind closed doors in the middle of the night,but announced on the mailing list , the location and subject are also mentioned. if someone is cribbing about some decisions, then please do be present during the meetings,or you don't have any right to criticise the decision taken by the members present there. members who talked with the organizers of the LA,kept others informed. And the votes were cast (as happens in our great democracy) and decision taken. regards, Tirveni Yadav __ Yahoo! India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new http://in.answers.yahoo.com/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
--- Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > They are not nil and I will vouch for it. Read my > Haskell post for an > example. Go to research.microsoft.com and you'll > realise that > Microsoft engineers contribute a lot in terms of > ideas (though their > code may still be under MS' control). And I > personally know atleast > one person in working in Microsoft who is an avid > Linuxer. Whatever Anupam, what is the overall equation? One avid linuxer against a gang of anti linux activist? There was one OSS pro person from M$ in LA. Still, junior executives distribute properitary software at CXO summit and demonstrate Vista and Office 2007. It appears paradox in saying and doing is the core of M$. It is difficult to believe that an organization boasting of corporate culture would be stupid enough, not to brief the executives properly!! Points raised by you in favour of M$ are perfectly valid. But one individual is easy to woo. M$ has baits for every fish in OSS ocean. Whether you avoid the bait or eat it is upto you. regards VK Engineers normally have problem with every solution. If not they have a solution in search of a problem. http://creative.linux-delhi.org Disclaimer The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw... We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
--- Sriram J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > they contributed the line "return 0;" to linux > code. :-) nah, "exit -1" :-) regards VK Engineers normally have problem with every solution. If not they have a solution in search of a problem. http://creative.linux-delhi.org Disclaimer The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw... 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 09-Feb-07, at 3:05 AM, Debarshi Ray wrote: >> Linus is another one of those "practical side" people, who >> had created Linux without any philosophy in mind. I totally agree >> that >> without RMS and FSF and GNU and all the "big picture people" we would >> not be where we are today but without "the practical people" we would >> all still be hacking on a huge bunch of loosely coupled GNU utilities >> wrapped around a commercial closed source kernel, waiting for GNU >> Mach >> to make an appearance. > > We still would have had the BSDs, I guess. So it still could have been > possible to use a completely free operating system. By the way Linux > can not be compiled without GCC, where G stands for GNU. looks like the FSF cavalry has finally arrived -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 7:17 PM, Vishnu Gopal wrote: > Offtopic, but I was there as well and it's not M$ alone that did this. > Google also had eyecandy gurls and pretty much nothing in their stalls > except a box where you can fill in an application to join them. Nobody > however takes them out on this which is sad. Anti-MS fervor can get > you far, but perhaps it can also make you blind. google spent 40,00,000 USD on the soc project for 640 students to contribute code to around a 100 OSS projects. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> Linus is another one of those "practical side" people, who > had created Linux without any philosophy in mind. I totally agree that > without RMS and FSF and GNU and all the "big picture people" we would > not be where we are today but without "the practical people" we would > all still be hacking on a huge bunch of loosely coupled GNU utilities > wrapped around a commercial closed source kernel, waiting for GNU Mach > to make an appearance. We still would have had the BSDs, I guess. So it still could have been possible to use a completely free operating system. By the way Linux can not be compiled without GCC, where G stands for GNU. Bye, Debarshi -- After the game the king and the pawn go into the same box. -- Italian proverb ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> 2. BTW as for the reason, Microsoft have their Linux > infrastructure in house to work on and do research. > They are taking on things that work in Linux and make > changes to their own products. When a crime is done, the criminal knows that he is doing wrong. In most cases he also knows what is right. It is just that he does not do what is right. The same logic holds here. > It doesn't do much good, if we can't show TCO will be > less with Linux. Be realistic, why many people are > afraid to take on Linux ;) People who know nothing about computers are never afraid of GNU/Linux. Only self-assuming know-alls are afraid. Cheers, Debarshi -- After the game the king and the pawn go into the same box. -- Italian proverb ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> Let's not have any illusions. Microsoft joined in the party for its > own personal selfish gains. It would be illogical to think otherwise. > But the point is did succeed in harming the community? Do we need to wait for it to do more harm? Regards, Debarshi -- After the game the king and the pawn go into the same box. -- Italian proverb ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
From: "Anupam Jain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> The event needed money and they were paying lots. Call a spade a spade. >> If they weren't paying this huge mail wouldn't have been there, right? >> M$ ideology is exactly opposite of Linux ideology, so its like Smirnoff >> sponsoring the Alcoholics Anonymous meet. > Except that Smirnoff is in the Alcoholic drinks business which is 'by > definition' opposed to an AA meet's purpose. Where as Microsoft is in > the software business, just like the FOSS fellows. Microsoft > sponsoring the LA event is NOT the same as Smirnoff sponsoring an AA > meet. Do you know what the Free Software movement stands for? I am not sure about the Open Source initiative, but atleast the Free Software movement is about software, philosophy and law. All three of them strongly relating to software freedom. Therefore the statement "Microsoft is in the software business, just like the FOSS fellows" is faulty. Microsoft was never in the business of spreading the philosophy of software freedom, and never supported any legislation to implement it. > I really don't understand what the big deal is. If the agenda was > sabotaged by Microsoft by just being a partrner/sponsor then let's > hear it in concrete terms *how*. Next time we talk of fighting the drug menace, we should inform the Taliban drug lords from Afghanistan. They will have plenty of money to pay for your tea and biscuits. Cheerio, Debarshi -- After the game the king and the pawn go into the same box. -- Italian proverb ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> Event like this do need money and no harm in accepting money from any one > including Drug Mafia. You might include Dawood Ibrahim and Osama Bin Laden too. Maybe even George W. Bush. > Linux community is strong minded and would not get influenced by Microsoft > on whatever forum. Keep it up LFY, you are really doing a great job for linux > community. Drug lord or no drug lord, I call this hypocrisy. Wonder whether Subhas Chandra Bose would have accepted funding from the British Empire for the INA. After all it is all about freedom. Regards, Debarshi -- After the game the king and the pawn go into the same box. -- Italian proverb ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 19:41 +0530, Parthan wrote: > Vishnu Gopal wrote: [...] > > Google also had eyecandy gurls [...] > Second, google wasn't with eye candy gurls. [...] I am really, really confused. What is wrong with, ahem, quote eye candy gurls unquote. And, in a FOSS world! I mean, really. Regards, Gora ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
in infinite wisdom Vishnu Gopal spoke thus On 02/08/2007 07:17 PM: > Offtopic, but I was there as well and it's not M$ alone that did this. > Google also had eyecandy gurls and pretty much nothing in their stalls > except a box where you can fill in an application to join them. Nobody > however takes them out on this which is sad. FWIW - I am anti-Google too ;-) . However, they have shown their support for free software quite strongly http://code.google.com/projects.html being one case in point and Summer of Code that they fund being another. -- raj shekhar facts: http://rajshekhar.net | opinions: http://rajshekhar.net/blog I dare do all that may become a man; Who dares do more is none. ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, G Karunakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2/8/07, Vishnu Gopal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [snip] > > well what do you expect google to show.. a screen with google search > opened..? or gmail? or orkut? or youtube? or google earth?... at > least they have something to do with FOSS.. whether they are there for > hiring..or drumming up for SoC... > what would tehelka show except their weekly.., or Novell ..except > their half propreitry stuff.. so with other stalls.. while all other > stalls used it in their own way.. they were atleast related to FOSS > ... while M$ aint.. > after all it was LA... not foss.in / freedel / gnunify.. > > Karunakar > If they have something to do with FOSS then a demo would do wonders. Frankly I'm disgusted at Google stalls I see at conferences everywhere - and yeah was at Foss.in too this year where they had six big couches and two (admittedly better looking) girls =). Contrast that to the Sun stall at Foss.in and the energy and enthu of the people there was amazing. Used to think Sun was a crappy company but just the tech demos there had me converted. Please note, this is not a comparison of what M$ did versus what Google did or is doing, but just a comment on their conference stalls. Vish ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Vishnu Gopal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2/8/07, Parthan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > [snip snip snip] > > > > 3. We were too tempted to know what 'interoperability' they meant were > > all about, so we went to the M$ stall and enquired what they were having > > there for display on a Linux conference. The answer was "we have a > > presentation running, you can see that." On the other hand, other stalls > > like Collabnet, Spike Source, Turbo Linux, etc were kind enough to > > explain in detail about their product, answer all queries and even open > > to some criticisms. The people posted at the M$ stall were not techies > > and were not even able to tell what they had displayed in their stall. > > We dont expect the reply "check the power point presentation" when some > > one eager enough to know something about their presence approaches. > > Offtopic, but I was there as well and it's not M$ alone that did this. > Google also had eyecandy gurls and pretty much nothing in their stalls > except a box where you can fill in an application to join them. Nobody > however takes them out on this which is sad. Anti-MS fervor can get > you far, but perhaps it can also make you blind. > well what do you expect google to show.. a screen with google search opened..? or gmail? or orkut? or youtube? or google earth?... at least they have something to do with FOSS.. whether they are there for hiring..or drumming up for SoC... what would tehelka show except their weekly.., or Novell ..except their half propreitry stuff.. so with other stalls.. while all other stalls used it in their own way.. they were atleast related to FOSS ... while M$ aint.. after all it was LA... not foss.in / freedel / gnunify.. Karunakar ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, G Karunakar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Wait you are confusing two entities - LUG - Linux User Group - the > registered society...where a committee takes decisions (you have to > pay a small fee to be registered member of this organization.. though > objectives of this entity are while being same as ILUGD but much more > too...(as specified in the MOA). > > & ILUGD - the unofficial group.. comprising folks on mailing > lists..quite informal.. anyone has a say as long as they do it in it > right time (when opinions are called for)..& place (ILUGD > meeting/list).. Hmmm, that makes sense. Agreed and thanks for pointing it out Karunakar. Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Vishnu Gopal wrote: > Offtopic, but I was there as well and it's not M$ alone that did this. > Google also had eyecandy gurls and pretty much nothing in their stalls > except a box where you can fill in an application to join them. Nobody > however takes them out on this which is sad. Anti-MS fervor can get > you far, but perhaps it can also make you blind. > > Vish Yes, I agree - But its not the first time Google is participating in an OSS event. They were/are there everywhere. Also, Google doesn't display a product which becomes a subject of debating. Second, google wasn't with eye candy gurls. I do not want to make a comparison with the two people you were speaking about, still they were far more un-eye-candy or seductive (f thats too strong a word, take it as attracting-by-skin). Also, that the girls at Google stall were far more knowledged about Google, than those put up at M$ stall. And, really they were open to suggestions - there were one guy suggesting that results of clusty.com were a bit better than google's (sometimes) and wanted google to make a note of it. From what I was told by the people at Google, their stall was aimed at recruitment and hence people were asked to drop down their business cards or fill up a similar stall. I do not think this is anything hindering to a Linux Conference. Am not a Anti-M$ fervor, if you were in other mailing lists (glug-bom and ilugc) you could have even seen me saying "we are not to consider M$ as enemies" and a lot of people spoke its not bad considering so. And am not pro-google as well. -- With Regards Parthan (TechnoFreak) . A Proud GNU/Linux User and Ubuntero .0. ..0 [Web] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Parthan 000 [Blog]http://technofreakatchennai.wordpress.com ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Parthan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [snip snip snip] > > 3. We were too tempted to know what 'interoperability' they meant were > all about, so we went to the M$ stall and enquired what they were having > there for display on a Linux conference. The answer was "we have a > presentation running, you can see that." On the other hand, other stalls > like Collabnet, Spike Source, Turbo Linux, etc were kind enough to > explain in detail about their product, answer all queries and even open > to some criticisms. The people posted at the M$ stall were not techies > and were not even able to tell what they had displayed in their stall. > We dont expect the reply "check the power point presentation" when some > one eager enough to know something about their presence approaches. Offtopic, but I was there as well and it's not M$ alone that did this. Google also had eyecandy gurls and pretty much nothing in their stalls except a box where you can fill in an application to join them. Nobody however takes them out on this which is sad. Anti-MS fervor can get you far, but perhaps it can also make you blind. Vish > -- > With Regards > > Parthan (TechnoFreak) > > . A Proud GNU/Linux User and Ubuntero > .0. > ..0 [Web] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Parthan > 000 [Blog]http://technofreakatchennai.wordpress.com > > ___ > ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org > http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd > Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi > http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/ > ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 16:38 +0530, Anupam Jain wrote: > On 2/8/07, Gora Mohanty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 00:30 +0530, Anupam Jain wrote: [...] > > > I liked ILUGD better when it wasn't committee-ised and decisions were > > > not taken by individuals for the whole LUG. The freedom to fork is > > > good but not the decision to do so on the slightest of provocation. > > > It's not prudent to fragment the community like this. [...] > Now I have been totally misunderstood it seems. How so? Please re-read your above statement, specifically the part about "...decisions were not taken by individuals for the whole LUG." That is a claim of fact, and not an expression of opinion. I see little room for misunderstanding, but maybe my comprehension of English is inadequate. If you cannot bother to stand by what you publicly declare, I see no point in continuing this discussion. > I never said anyone > was pressurized not to go. That was only part of my quibble with what you said. Please do not try to weasel out of replying to the main thrust of my comment. >Just that for me ILUGD has been primarily > this mailing list and I did not see a very public discussion on the > mailing list before everything was done and over. When was discussion on the mailing list ever a requirement? As a legally constituted body, the only thing that has any standing is a vote in meetings, unless the rules are changed to accommodate what you suggest. By all means, public discussion on the mailing list is a good goal, but people do not always have the time to ensure this. Please come to a meeting, vote for such a change in voting rules, and work to make it happen. That would be welcome, while pontificating on the list is less so. > The "committee" > related decisions of ILUGD have been mostly off the list. And you know this how, exactly? Clairvoyance? >I don't care > usually except that in this case I think the decision was very wrong, > something that would not have been so casually taken had there been a > real free-for-all discussion on the same. My ILUGD boycotting a Linux > event! Really! MS or no MS, that's a bit much. I will repeat it once more as you seemed determined to ignore this. The reasons for not participating in LA2007 were discussed at the meeting, passed by a voice vote, and the same was communicated to this list. Microsoft participation had absolutely nothing to do with it, as we were not aware of that at the time. You have yet to address the reason that ILUG-D chose not to participate. > Please don't take it personally, I'm not saying I could have taken a > better decision. I'm saying *we* all could have. If you are serious about this "*we*", and about "My ILUGD" you should be participating in ILUG-D meetings. Else, it is all just hot air. Regards, Gora ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 08-Feb-07, at 4:38 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > > > > this mailing list and I did not see a very public discussion on the > > > mailing list before everything was done and over. The "committee" > > > related decisions of ILUGD have been mostly off the list. > > > > not so - agenda is always disclosed on the list. discussion is asked > > for. Even for 'committee meetings' all are invited. And decision is > > by majority. Minutes and list of attendees are also always posted on > > the list. You need to retract. > > Even so, I still think the informality of ILUGD was better. Much of my > comment was in direct reaction to the someone pointing out that it was > time for LA and ILUGD to part ways permanently, for reasons that are > still not very convincing. If the ILUGD was an informal group such a > thing would probably not have even popped up. I stand by what I said > and you people are looking too much into it. There is hardly a need to > retract opinions clearly marked as such (remember I opened with "I > liked ILUGD better" not "ILUGD was better..."). > Wait you are confusing two entities - LUG - Linux User Group - the registered society...where a committee takes decisions (you have to pay a small fee to be registered member of this organization.. though objectives of this entity are while being same as ILUGD but much more too...(as specified in the MOA). & ILUGD - the unofficial group.. comprising folks on mailing lists..quite informal.. anyone has a say as long as they do it in it right time (when opinions are called for)..& place (ILUGD meeting/list).. > Anyways that is not even the main point of that supposedly > objectionable paragraph. The main point was that fragmenting the > community for no reason is not welcome! > by default the way a community is made (of individuals) its fragmented.. what cements it is the common views/ideas/philosophy shared.. Karunakar ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2/8/07, Sriram J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 2/8/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 08-Feb-07, at 4:38 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > > > > > > > > this mailing list and I did not see a very public discussion on the > > > > > mailing list before everything was done and over. The "committee" > > > > > related decisions of ILUGD have been mostly off the list. > > > > > > > > not so - agenda is always disclosed on the list. discussion is asked > > > > for. Even for 'committee meetings' all are invited. And decision is > > > > by majority. Minutes and list of attendees are also always posted on > > > > the list. You need to retract. > > > > > > > > what Anupam has said is common of any democracy including India where the > > people who never vote are the most vocal critics of any decision. > > > > IMHO ILUGD should introduce postal ballots so that people can influence > > the majority opinion without actually taking the trouble to be part of the > > majority. > > > You meant to be satirical but I think your suggestion is an excellent > one! Well during election times do you see people being asked to come > to Delhi and visit the Rashtrapati Bhavan in case they want to be a > part of the electoral process? Before taking any decision, you do not > take a decision and "inform" the members of the same, you give the > members the details of the situation and "ask" for their opinion and > continue to do so until some semblance of a consensus on a possible > course of action emerges. Especially for ILUGD which started out as a > mailing list, why have voting / decision-making behind closed doors. > It's not very difficult to have an online voting setup, why don't we > have that? Well if 1000 votes go in favour (by fence sitters) of participating & a 20 votes against it..by folks who are actually "in" delhi & will have to ultimately do the show...do all the hard work.. just for the sake that ..a 1000 lazy bums had time to to click on "Yes" !! Doesnt sound too good!!! Karunakar ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I prefer opinion polls to no polls at all. I'm not saying make the > poll decision binding, all I'm saying is let all voices be heard. Is > there any harm in providing another platform for people to raise their > voices? Anyways let me not keep on defending myself. I feel there > could have been more community participation within ILUGD itself, > that's all. And I'm open to all methods for doing the same. > > I think this thread is going seriously off track. Is anyone else tired? The first method u should be open to is to attend ilugd meetings. how do u think ILUGD will listen to all voices if they dont know voices are there to be heard. why dont u name the platform where u want to be heard. the internet and face to face mediums are already there. if u want a third platfrom why dont u name it. Regards Sriram ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Sriram J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > contributions of microsoft to the community are not debatable. They > > are nil. But their contributions against the community are legion > > > > they contributed the line "return 0;" to linux code. :-) > nope.. thats K&R contribution!! Karunakar ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 08-Feb-07, at 4:28 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > >> where did you discover this gem? or is it your own invention? Have > >> you read any of his writings? > > > > Kenneth which statement is it that you object to? All I'm saying is > > that Linus was in a more practical than philosophical mood when he > > started working on Linux, do you really doubt that? Do we have to > > argue on everything. Oh well.. > > there is a misconception spread that stallman is the fount of all > philosophy and does nothing but talk and guys like linus and guido et > al are mere code monkeys without a world view. This is not true. > Firstly stallman is a brilliant programmer and secondly the others > all have a world view and are capable of philosophising in their own > right. In fact in the very process of producing and sharing software, > all foss/oss people get a world view and a big picture. And anyone > without a clear picture of the thrill of sharing is a big zero in the > foss/oss world. Which comes back to my main point: > > FOSS/OSS conferencces are in the last analysis about sharing - code, > ideas, dreams, whatever. And no one who doesnt want to share should > be allowed in. Thats it. All the other big talk of openness, level > playing field, chance to challenge blah blah blah means nothing - > dont want to share? keep out. > +100 Karunakar ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> > > They are not nil and I will vouch for it. Read my Haskell post for an > example. Go to research.microsoft.com and you'll realise that > Microsoft engineers contribute a lot in terms of ideas (though their > code may still be under MS' control). And I personally know atleast > one person in working in Microsoft who is an avid Linuxer. Whatever > the case may be, my point is still this - What harm could (or did) MS > do by participating in a Linux event? I don't see a reason to ban > them. One swallow does not a summer make is common saying. Any number of people working in microsoft will not make microsoft an opensouirce company. It is the not individual employees contribution to the community that matters . it is how much the company does as a whole to negate the individual contributions. even if a microsoft employee contributes it is in his individual capacity and not as an employee of microsoft. Regards Sriram ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Sriram J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2/8/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > You meant to be satirical but I think your suggestion is an excellent > > one! Well during election times do you see people being asked to come > > to Delhi and visit the Rashtrapati Bhavan in case they want to be a > > part of the electoral process? Before taking any decision, you do not > > take a decision and "inform" the members of the same, you give the > > members the details of the situation and "ask" for their opinion and > > continue to do so until some semblance of a consensus on a possible > > course of action emerges. Especially for ILUGD which started out as a > > mailing list, why have voting / decision-making behind closed doors. > > It's not very difficult to have an online voting setup, why don't we > > have that? > > > > Regards, > > Anupam Jain > > > Do u see any democracy having online voting. > only opinion polls are conducted online and we are not talking about opinion > polls here. I prefer opinion polls to no polls at all. I'm not saying make the poll decision binding, all I'm saying is let all voices be heard. Is there any harm in providing another platform for people to raise their voices? Anyways let me not keep on defending myself. I feel there could have been more community participation within ILUGD itself, that's all. And I'm open to all methods for doing the same. I think this thread is going seriously off track. Is anyone else tired? Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 08-Feb-07, at 5:41 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > >> philosophy and does nothing but talk and guys like linus and guido et > >> al are mere code monkeys without a world view. This is not true. > > > > It may be a very popular misconception, but it is not one *I* harbour. > > then why are you spreading it? When did I say anything even remotely close to that? My belief is in a mix of practicality and philosophy. I was merely replying to the claim that only the "big picture" people count and practicality amounts to nothing. > > And I think FOSS is all about the community. And the community > > welcomes participation. > > you still havent understood - FOSS is about sharing - not community. > And it welcomes participation in sharing not participation per se > > > I somehow feel something's amiss when we start > > banning people and organisations from any of Linux/FOSS events, > > because their contributions to the community are debatable. > > contributions of microsoft to the community are not debatable. They > are nil. But their contributions against the community are legion They are not nil and I will vouch for it. Read my Haskell post for an example. Go to research.microsoft.com and you'll realise that Microsoft engineers contribute a lot in terms of ideas (though their code may still be under MS' control). And I personally know atleast one person in working in Microsoft who is an avid Linuxer. Whatever the case may be, my point is still this - What harm could (or did) MS do by participating in a Linux event? I don't see a reason to ban them. Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 08-Feb-07, at 5:48 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > > part of the electoral process? Before taking any decision, you do not > > take a decision and "inform" the members of the same, > > who did that - you are just spreading wild untrue allegations > > > you give the > > members the details of the situation and "ask" for their opinion and > > continue to do so until some semblance of a consensus on a possible > > course of action emerges. > > thats what they did > > > Especially for ILUGD which started out as a > > mailing list, why have voting / decision-making behind closed doors. > > It's not very difficult to have an online voting setup, why don't we > > have that? > > because a bunch of useless gaspots will take control - any one too > lazy to turn up for a meeting is unfit to vote If that's your opinion then fine. I don't think that will happen but anyways. Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > contributions of microsoft to the community are not debatable. They > are nil. But their contributions against the community are legion they contributed the line "return 0;" to linux code. :-) Regards Sriram ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 5:41 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: >> philosophy and does nothing but talk and guys like linus and guido et >> al are mere code monkeys without a world view. This is not true. > > It may be a very popular misconception, but it is not one *I* harbour. then why are you spreading it? > > And I think FOSS is all about the community. And the community > welcomes participation. you still havent understood - FOSS is about sharing - not community. And it welcomes participation in sharing not participation per se > I somehow feel something's amiss when we start > banning people and organisations from any of Linux/FOSS events, > because their contributions to the community are debatable. contributions of microsoft to the community are not debatable. They are nil. But their contributions against the community are legion -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You meant to be satirical but I think your suggestion is an excellent > one! Well during election times do you see people being asked to come > to Delhi and visit the Rashtrapati Bhavan in case they want to be a > part of the electoral process? Before taking any decision, you do not > take a decision and "inform" the members of the same, you give the > members the details of the situation and "ask" for their opinion and > continue to do so until some semblance of a consensus on a possible > course of action emerges. Especially for ILUGD which started out as a > mailing list, why have voting / decision-making behind closed doors. > It's not very difficult to have an online voting setup, why don't we > have that? > > Regards, > Anupam Jain Do u see any democracy having online voting. only opinion polls are conducted online and we are not talking about opinion polls here. People are not asked to come to Delhi but they are expected to queue up at the polling booth before they cast thier vote behind closed doors. where does voting happen in the open even an open ballot happens behind closed doors . all decision-making happens behind closed doors because you elected the representatives. next u might want to invited to cabinet meetings. Regards Sriram ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 5:48 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > part of the electoral process? Before taking any decision, you do not > take a decision and "inform" the members of the same, who did that - you are just spreading wild untrue allegations > you give the > members the details of the situation and "ask" for their opinion and > continue to do so until some semblance of a consensus on a possible > course of action emerges. thats what they did > Especially for ILUGD which started out as a > mailing list, why have voting / decision-making behind closed doors. > It's not very difficult to have an online voting setup, why don't we > have that? because a bunch of useless gaspots will take control - any one too lazy to turn up for a meeting is unfit to vote -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > And I think FOSS is all about the community. And the community > welcomes participation. I somehow feel something's amiss when we start > banning people and organisations from any of Linux/FOSS events, > because their contributions to the community are debatable. Besides > it's fun to watch a hardcore windows fan see a Linux demo and exclaim > that he didn't think such things were even possible! The pro windows > crowd visiting Linux events offers perspective and opinions and comes > fully vulnerable to a "Shining Linux" onslaught! Isn't that good > enough? > > Regards, > Anupam Jain what makes you think that the pro windows crowd will come only if M$ sponsors an linux event. we can "wow" the pro windows crowd even without having M$ as the main sponsor. what kind of perspective and opinions do u think a pro windows user who is viewing linux for the first time can provide on linux. maybe u might consider shipping solitaire and freecell withe all distros to make them feel t home. I dont think any community welcomes 100% participation. communities are made up of like minded people so the right of admission is usually reserved Regards Sriram ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Sriram J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2/8/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > On 08-Feb-07, at 4:38 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > > > > > > this mailing list and I did not see a very public discussion on the > > > > mailing list before everything was done and over. The "committee" > > > > related decisions of ILUGD have been mostly off the list. > > > > > > not so - agenda is always disclosed on the list. discussion is asked > > > for. Even for 'committee meetings' all are invited. And decision is > > > by majority. Minutes and list of attendees are also always posted on > > > the list. You need to retract. > > > > what Anupam has said is common of any democracy including India where the > people who never vote are the most vocal critics of any decision. > > IMHO ILUGD should introduce postal ballots so that people can influence > the majority opinion without actually taking the trouble to be part of the > majority. You meant to be satirical but I think your suggestion is an excellent one! Well during election times do you see people being asked to come to Delhi and visit the Rashtrapati Bhavan in case they want to be a part of the electoral process? Before taking any decision, you do not take a decision and "inform" the members of the same, you give the members the details of the situation and "ask" for their opinion and continue to do so until some semblance of a consensus on a possible course of action emerges. Especially for ILUGD which started out as a mailing list, why have voting / decision-making behind closed doors. It's not very difficult to have an online voting setup, why don't we have that? Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 08-Feb-07, at 4:28 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > >> where did you discover this gem? or is it your own invention? Have > >> you read any of his writings? > > > > Kenneth which statement is it that you object to? All I'm saying is > > that Linus was in a more practical than philosophical mood when he > > started working on Linux, do you really doubt that? Do we have to > > argue on everything. Oh well.. > > there is a misconception spread that stallman is the fount of all > philosophy and does nothing but talk and guys like linus and guido et > al are mere code monkeys without a world view. This is not true. It may be a very popular misconception, but it is not one *I* harbour. > Firstly stallman is a brilliant programmer and secondly the others > all have a world view and are capable of philosophising in their own > right. In fact in the very process of producing and sharing software, > all foss/oss people get a world view and a big picture. And anyone > without a clear picture of the thrill of sharing is a big zero in the > foss/oss world. Which comes back to my main point: > > FOSS/OSS conferencces are in the last analysis about sharing - code, > ideas, dreams, whatever. And no one who doesnt want to share should > be allowed in. Thats it. All the other big talk of openness, level > playing field, chance to challenge blah blah blah means nothing - > dont want to share? keep out. And I think FOSS is all about the community. And the community welcomes participation. I somehow feel something's amiss when we start banning people and organisations from any of Linux/FOSS events, because their contributions to the community are debatable. Besides it's fun to watch a hardcore windows fan see a Linux demo and exclaim that he didn't think such things were even possible! The pro windows crowd visiting Linux events offers perspective and opinions and comes fully vulnerable to a "Shining Linux" onslaught! Isn't that good enough? Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 08-Feb-07, at 4:38 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > > > > this mailing list and I did not see a very public discussion on the > > > mailing list before everything was done and over. The "committee" > > > related decisions of ILUGD have been mostly off the list. > > > > not so - agenda is always disclosed on the list. discussion is asked > > for. Even for 'committee meetings' all are invited. And decision is > > by majority. Minutes and list of attendees are also always posted on > > the list. You need to retract. what Anupam has said is common of any democracy including India where the people who never vote are the most vocal critics of any decision. IMHO ILUGD should introduce postal ballots so that people can influence the majority opinion without actually taking the trouble to be part of the majority. Regards Sriram ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 5:19 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > Anyways that is not even the main point of that supposedly > objectionable paragraph. The main point was that fragmenting the > community for no reason is not welcome! where is the fragmentation - do you contend that LFY is part of the community? Even they dont contend it -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 08-Feb-07, at 4:38 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > > this mailing list and I did not see a very public discussion on the > > mailing list before everything was done and over. The "committee" > > related decisions of ILUGD have been mostly off the list. > > not so - agenda is always disclosed on the list. discussion is asked > for. Even for 'committee meetings' all are invited. And decision is > by majority. Minutes and list of attendees are also always posted on > the list. You need to retract. Even so, I still think the informality of ILUGD was better. Much of my comment was in direct reaction to the someone pointing out that it was time for LA and ILUGD to part ways permanently, for reasons that are still not very convincing. If the ILUGD was an informal group such a thing would probably not have even popped up. I stand by what I said and you people are looking too much into it. There is hardly a need to retract opinions clearly marked as such (remember I opened with "I liked ILUGD better" not "ILUGD was better..."). Anyways that is not even the main point of that supposedly objectionable paragraph. The main point was that fragmenting the community for no reason is not welcome! Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 4:38 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > this mailing list and I did not see a very public discussion on the > mailing list before everything was done and over. The "committee" > related decisions of ILUGD have been mostly off the list. not so - agenda is always disclosed on the list. discussion is asked for. Even for 'committee meetings' all are invited. And decision is by majority. Minutes and list of attendees are also always posted on the list. You need to retract. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 4:28 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: >> where did you discover this gem? or is it your own invention? Have >> you read any of his writings? > > Kenneth which statement is it that you object to? All I'm saying is > that Linus was in a more practical than philosophical mood when he > started working on Linux, do you really doubt that? Do we have to > argue on everything. Oh well.. there is a misconception spread that stallman is the fount of all philosophy and does nothing but talk and guys like linus and guido et al are mere code monkeys without a world view. This is not true. Firstly stallman is a brilliant programmer and secondly the others all have a world view and are capable of philosophising in their own right. In fact in the very process of producing and sharing software, all foss/oss people get a world view and a big picture. And anyone without a clear picture of the thrill of sharing is a big zero in the foss/oss world. Which comes back to my main point: FOSS/OSS conferencces are in the last analysis about sharing - code, ideas, dreams, whatever. And no one who doesnt want to share should be allowed in. Thats it. All the other big talk of openness, level playing field, chance to challenge blah blah blah means nothing - dont want to share? keep out. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2/8/07, nipra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On 2/8/07, Gora Mohanty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 00:30 +0530, Anupam Jain wrote: > > [snip] > > > > I liked ILUGD better when it wasn't committee-ised and decisions were > > > > not taken by individuals for the whole LUG. The freedom to fork is > > > > good but not the decision to do so on the slightest of provocation. > > > > It's not prudent to fragment the community like this. > > > > [snip] > > > > > Please substantiate your allegations, or post a public retraction. > > > > +1 Forgot to add the -1 :) -1 > > Is that even allowed? I don't see a rule saying it isn't. Anyways the > count is back to zero ;) > > Regards, > Anupam Jain > ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, nipra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > On 2/8/07, Gora Mohanty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 00:30 +0530, Anupam Jain wrote: > [snip] > > > I liked ILUGD better when it wasn't committee-ised and decisions were > > > not taken by individuals for the whole LUG. The freedom to fork is > > > good but not the decision to do so on the slightest of provocation. > > > It's not prudent to fragment the community like this. > > [snip] > > > Please substantiate your allegations, or post a public retraction. > > +1 Is that even allowed? I don't see a rule saying it isn't. Anyways the count is back to zero ;) Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Gora Mohanty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 00:30 +0530, Anupam Jain wrote: > [...] > > I have mixed views on Microsoft's participation in the event. > Personally, I feel that it is up to LFY to decide. Given that > Linux Asia is by no stretch of the imagination a community > event, and, the name notwithstanding, is hardly a beacon for the > promotion of free software, I see no reason for us to get overly > exercised. Well even if Linux Asia was important to FOSS, I'd still find no reason to get excited. > > I liked ILUGD better when it wasn't committee-ised and decisions were > > not taken by individuals for the whole LUG. The freedom to fork is > > good but not the decision to do so on the slightest of provocation. > > It's not prudent to fragment the community like this. > > However, I will take strong exception to this snark, as you have been > repeating this baseless canard. Would you clarify what exactly you > mean by "...committee-ised and decisions were not taken by individuals > for the whole LUG", and what was your basis for making that rather > dramatic accusation? As has been intimated on this list, the decision > not to participate was made by voting among people present at ILUG-D > meetings, and was made before we were aware of Microsoft participation. > Though some people in ILUG-D have strong viewpoints on this, there was > no fatwa issued against participation, and, in fact, many ILUG-D members > apparently did participate, and some even enjoyed it. Please > substantiate your allegations, or post a public retraction. > Now I have been totally misunderstood it seems. I never said anyone was pressurized not to go. Just that for me ILUGD has been primarily this mailing list and I did not see a very public discussion on the mailing list before everything was done and over. The "committee" related decisions of ILUGD have been mostly off the list. I don't care usually except that in this case I think the decision was very wrong, something that would not have been so casually taken had there been a real free-for-all discussion on the same. My ILUGD boycotting a Linux event! Really! MS or no MS, that's a bit much. Please don't take it personally, I'm not saying I could have taken a better decision. I'm saying *we* all could have. Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Hi, On 2/8/07, Gora Mohanty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 00:30 +0530, Anupam Jain wrote: [snip] > > I liked ILUGD better when it wasn't committee-ised and decisions were > > not taken by individuals for the whole LUG. The freedom to fork is > > good but not the decision to do so on the slightest of provocation. > > It's not prudent to fragment the community like this. [snip] > Please substantiate your allegations, or post a public retraction. +1 Regards Nikhil Prabhakar ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 08-Feb-07, at 2:51 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > > Not true. Linus is another one of those "practical side" people, who > > had created Linux without any philosophy in mind. > > where did you discover this gem? or is it your own invention? Have > you read any of his writings? Kenneth which statement is it that you object to? All I'm saying is that Linus was in a more practical than philosophical mood when he started working on Linux, do you really doubt that? Do we have to argue on everything. Oh well.. Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 00:30 +0530, Anupam Jain wrote: [...] I have mixed views on Microsoft's participation in the event. Personally, I feel that it is up to LFY to decide. Given that Linux Asia is by no stretch of the imagination a community event, and, the name notwithstanding, is hardly a beacon for the promotion of free software, I see no reason for us to get overly exercised. > I liked ILUGD better when it wasn't committee-ised and decisions were > not taken by individuals for the whole LUG. The freedom to fork is > good but not the decision to do so on the slightest of provocation. > It's not prudent to fragment the community like this. However, I will take strong exception to this snark, as you have been repeating this baseless canard. Would you clarify what exactly you mean by "...committee-ised and decisions were not taken by individuals for the whole LUG", and what was your basis for making that rather dramatic accusation? As has been intimated on this list, the decision not to participate was made by voting among people present at ILUG-D meetings, and was made before we were aware of Microsoft participation. Though some people in ILUG-D have strong viewpoints on this, there was no fatwa issued against participation, and, in fact, many ILUG-D members apparently did participate, and some even enjoyed it. Please substantiate your allegations, or post a public retraction. Regards, Gora ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Janani Gopalakrishnan wrote: Who had the stalls next to Microsoft at LinuxAsia? Did they > use it well? (Apologies, I couldn't attend LA as I was busy getting married, > so somebody who attended please throw light on this!!) I don't know about who was next to M$'s stall, I know who was there opposite to it - it was us NRCFOSS. ;) so, now wasn't this a platform to > show Vista and Red Hat/SUSE/BOSS or whatever distro you place your bet on > right next to it... on both sides of Microsoft's booth... so, the users > could have seen with their own eyes that Linux and OSS work just as well as > the Microsoft products they are so used to? > Why should some one put up a stall and show people about Vista - they have already (tried) seen it, and most of them came back to *pirated* windows XP. I personally dont believe in comparing GNU/Linux with Windows or even Mac. Some may argue that for an *end user* its all same, no they are not. Similar eye candies don't make them similar. > Rather than expect everybody to understand, absorb and live by the > principles of free and open source right in the beginning, first show them > the produce! Show them that Linux and FOSS works not only for the geek but > for the desktop user too, show them it works for businesses, show them it > works just as well as what M$ sells. They will understand that Linux is 'free as in free beer' if they have bought their Windows for money. In a world where pirated stuff is common, we need philosophy more. > Makes me wonder... M$ dared to bravely step into alien turf (well knowing > that most attendees at LA are going to be Linux followers and not Microsoft > fans... think, if somebody stood in front of the Microsoft stall and loudly > argued with the rep there about the merits of Linux, how many people do you > think would have objected... now, that's a hazard M$ could have faced), but > we hesitate to give them a small place to stand in our ground? Nope. 1. In an Linux or OSS conference, you expect OSS products to be displayed. Not something which every one had been seeing it for years, having pirated copies in their homes. 2. They were tagged as 'Interoperability' partners and what people expected from them was some display of the same. Nobody expected Vista over there (though every one know thats all they can display in a M$ stall), including me. 3. We were too tempted to know what 'interoperability' they meant were all about, so we went to the M$ stall and enquired what they were having there for display on a Linux conference. The answer was "we have a presentation running, you can see that." On the other hand, other stalls like Collabnet, Spike Source, Turbo Linux, etc were kind enough to explain in detail about their product, answer all queries and even open to some criticisms. The people posted at the M$ stall were not techies and were not even able to tell what they had displayed in their stall. We dont expect the reply "check the power point presentation" when some one eager enough to know something about their presence approaches. 4. Some (around 10) students, who were interacting in our stall, did ask me what M$ was doing in a Linux Conference and whether M$ had any Linux or Open Source products being displayed ? 5. We, all those who from the community has been talking against M$ participation in LA, are people who attend most of the other FOSS conferences. We think that FOSS conference is a place where we get introduced to, or improve our knowledge about FOSS. Where we can socialize within our community and where new endeavors begin. For that matter, foss.in was far better place for the FOSS community and if it is true that M$ really wanted to display their product in a Linux/FOSS Conference, it should have been Foss.in rather as there were more stalls for FOSS products and where a major portion of the community was present as well as many non-Indian FOSS Developers as well. -- With Regards Parthan (TechnoFreak) . A Proud GNU/Linux User and Ubuntero .0. ..0 [Web] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Parthan 000 [Blog]http://technofreakatchennai.wordpress.com ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 2:51 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > Not true. Linus is another one of those "practical side" people, who > had created Linux without any philosophy in mind. where did you discover this gem? or is it your own invention? Have you read any of his writings? -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 3:26 PM, vivek khurana wrote: > Liberal/broad view does not means you allow anything. ahh - we are on the same side and saying the same thing. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> So when it comes to Microsoft advertising in Linux magazines and > sponsoring Linux events, where you see red, I see an opportunity, of > an equal footing, at Microsoft's expense. Linux and FOSS is clearly > better than Windows, we just need to cut through MS's FUD. Mailing > Lists will not do that for the average Joe, such collaborative events > will. In LUG style, "+1" I totally agree! Who had the stalls next to Microsoft at LinuxAsia? Did they use it well? (Apologies, I couldn't attend LA as I was busy getting married, so somebody who attended please throw light on this!!) CXOSummit had an audience of stakeholders and decision-makers, many of whom would have attended the expo as well... so, now wasn't this a platform to show Vista and Red Hat/SUSE/BOSS or whatever distro you place your bet on right next to it... on both sides of Microsoft's booth... so, the users could have seen with their own eyes that Linux and OSS work just as well as the Microsoft products they are so used to? Call it a flat world, a level playing field, whatever you will, but the only way a product (or philosophy) can survive is by competing with others! By making open source a "cult" rather than a "philosophy" and "expecting" people to adopt it, you only lose opportunities to gain more followers. Rather than expect everybody to understand, absorb and live by the principles of free and open source right in the beginning, first show them the produce! Show them that Linux and FOSS works not only for the geek but for the desktop user too, show them it works for businesses, show them it works just as well as what M$ sells. Once they see the merit in the products, they will automatically adopt the ideals as well... not vice versa. There are more people who are drawn to a religion from its customs than the other way round! And well, if you see something as a rival (or well, an enemy) then stand right next to them and say, "We are better!" rather than block them away from the scene. Makes me wonder... M$ dared to bravely step into alien turf (well knowing that most attendees at LA are going to be Linux followers and not Microsoft fans... think, if somebody stood in front of the Microsoft stall and loudly argued with the rep there about the merits of Linux, how many people do you think would have objected... now, that's a hazard M$ could have faced), but we hesitate to give them a small place to stand in our ground? Doesn't it show the community's doubt in its own abilities? Do you think any of the saadhus at the Kumbh Mela will worry about Christian, Muslim or Buddhist missionaries attending? You cannot convert a staunch follower! And for those who're not staunch followers, Linux/FOSS stands a better chance when placed right next to Microsoft and projected as superior "in comparison"! Look beyond religion at humanity. Look beyond Linux/FOSS at technology. Because that's how the hoi-polloi sees it! Only when you see the broader picture can you prove yourself in that vast world! Cheers, Janani ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> > thats not what i said - i asked if you permit > no-sharing, copy- > protect, no-copying, no-distribution? according to > this: > > http://creative.linux-delhi.org/?q=node/2 > > you dont. Why dont you allow that also. Why restrict > to just these 12 > licenses? Be liberal. Invite everyone in - you will > flourish, maybe > even micorsoft will fund you > mind reading this before posting such suggestion http://creative.linux-delhi.org/?q=node/20 no-copying, no-sharing, no-distribution will turn creativedot into a museum for display of creative work, something no user is interested. Please explain to me how can i implement no-copying license when everytime a user clicks on a photograph to view? Whenever a browser opens an image, it effectively copies image file on to computers temp file. Now you might say we should implement DRM to allow no-sharing, no-copying and no-distribution which will go against the basis of creativedot. Liberal/broad view does not means you allow anything. We allow broad range of licenses and broad range of creative work. We are not a website for hosting photographs only or for hosting music only. We allow publication creative work in any digital format as long as work published can be accessed/modified under any platform with requiring any special proprietary software. That means you cannot post pictures in a format which can be edited by photoshock only. As for funding, the concept of funding in terms of Money does not exist with creativedot yet. We accept donation in terms of webspace, technical inputs, man hours (we love dedicated man hours) and soon will require donation in terms of software code under GPL (Ok you may count it as man hours). We dont have any plan to accept monetary funding in foreseeable future. So, if you were thinking M$ will fund us with money, I will have to disappoint you here. Btw, you might be interested in trying Jannani's recipes published under creativedot. regards VK PS:- we are looking for funders who can donate us a server and monthly bandwidth, in case you know someone who can help us do let us know. Engineers normally have problem with every solution. If not they have a solution in search of a problem. http://creative.linux-delhi.org Disclaimer The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw... Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/8/07, Sandip Bhattacharya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > > the only question being asked here is 'should the community > > participate in conferences where microsoft is a sponsor' - and if it > > does, how does the community benefit? > > I believe there is a disconnect between what Kenneth is talking about > and what others are talking about. > > We all (Kenneth included) believe that every company (even Microsoft) > should have as much an opportunity as others to be at a FOSS event if it > has something relevant to say. This is probably a point on which every > body including LA, Anupam, Kenneth agree upon. Agreed. > Kenneth(and Me and others) goes beyond this argument with the following > line - Microsoft has had enough opportunities to participate in FOSS in > the time so far. Microsoft has announced its intentions and beliefs > rather clearly everytime - it doesn't like GPL/Free software/Opensource, > and it will go to any length to subvert this > community/movement/industry. It has shown its subversive intentions this > time too - by undermining Linux in a Linux event by ostentatiously > participating to show their open source offerings, and then promoting > their closed source software as an alternative. > > Given this rather long track record of Microsoft, we feel that it has no > place in an Free/Open Source event of any nature. Its presence(leave > alone sponsorship) itself undermines the event's credibility. I don't agree to this. As I've already pointed out. Microsoft's presence can only negatively affect a Linux event as much as we let it. That Microsoft's presence would undermine any Linux event's credibility is a myth that I'd like to see broken as soon as possible. Whenever I see a big computing conference being publicized I always wishing that somehow Linux and FOSS manage to grab some sound bytes right along with the big closed source boys. When I see MS employees on a Vista publicity campaign, and users being captivated by the 3d opengl based interface, I wish someone shows these people XGL and Compiz running on Linux and makes it a known fact that you can have everything Vista *promises* and more, on their desktops, right now, without costs or licenses. In short I wish for an equal stage, free of FUD, and it's clear that Microsoft is too scared to provide one. So when it comes to Microsoft advertising in Linux magazines and sponsoring Linux events, where you see red, I see an opportunity, of an equal footing, at Microsoft's expense. Linux and FOSS is clearly better than Windows, we just need to cut through MS's FUD. Mailing Lists will not do that for the average Joe, such collaborative events will. > > It is because of this argument, that we are considering whether we > should associate ourselves with any organization which doesn't feel the > same way about our movement. > > And please, for those focusing on the "practical side of Linux", it > would be best that you stay away from this discussion. You obviously > don't look at the larger picture. There would be no Linux/FOSS if people > only focused on the "practical side". Not true. Linus is another one of those "practical side" people, who had created Linux without any philosophy in mind. I totally agree that without RMS and FSF and GNU and all the "big picture people" we would not be where we are today but without "the practical people" we would all still be hacking on a huge bunch of loosely coupled GNU utilities wrapped around a commercial closed source kernel, waiting for GNU Mach to make an appearance. There would be no KDE, only a Gnome which would have been but a shell of it's formidable capabilities now (because I believe much of the impetus for Gnome's development came from KDE's success, I may be wrong but let's not debate that, it's seriously OT). For programming we would probably have a choice between C and Lisp and for editors between Emacs and Vi. Oh and the Linux user community would probably be in tens (or at max hundreds) of thousands instead of millions as is the case today, and Microsoft would be too busy promoting Windows 2007 to be wasting time sponsoring Linux events. Yes Sir, in the world inhabited solely by the "big picture people" things would be all too rosy and everyone would be happy. You and me, as happy as we can be, the happy hapless people stuck with Windows who wouldn't even realise what *could have been* and yes, the happiest of all would have been Microsoft. Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 2:16 PM, vivek khurana wrote: > > Yup, you can post work created using proprietary > software as long as you have licensed copy of the > software. And yes we have M$ executives as > contributors too. thats not what i said - i asked if you permit no-sharing, copy- protect, no-copying, no-distribution? according to this: http://creative.linux-delhi.org/?q=node/2 you dont. Why dont you allow that also. Why restrict to just these 12 licenses? Be liberal. Invite everyone in - you will flourish, maybe even micorsoft will fund you -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> And please, for those focusing on the "practical side of Linux", it > would be best that you stay away from this discussion. You obviously > don't look at the larger picture. There would be no Linux/FOSS if people > only focused on the "practical side". BS. F/OSS was doing great without all the marketing and hype surrounding it. No "mega-event" can ever beat the enthusiasm involved in a local LUG meet; where a small group of like-minded people get together and talk about what they like. Linux and other F/OSS were never made with the intention of pleasing the masses or for a market share, and it will always remain that way. Some corporates choose to use F/OSS because they've done their homework on what actually works for them; not because somebody presented them with a "LINUX ROCKS" pamphlet. I digress from the topic, but the bottom line is that F/OSS needs more people who can actually contribute to the development of F/OSS itself; not people who are blowing trumpets about how "Linux is better than Windows". -- Anant ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> > dont be silly - does creative dot take a broad > liberal view and allow > proprietary stuff there? Yup, you can post work created using proprietary software as long as you have licensed copy of the software. And yes we have M$ executives as contributors too. regards VK Engineers normally have problem with every solution. If not they have a solution in search of a problem. http://creative.linux-delhi.org Disclaimer The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw... Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > the only question being asked here is 'should the community > participate in conferences where microsoft is a sponsor' - and if it > does, how does the community benefit? I believe there is a disconnect between what Kenneth is talking about and what others are talking about. We all (Kenneth included) believe that every company (even Microsoft) should have as much an opportunity as others to be at a FOSS event if it has something relevant to say. This is probably a point on which every body including LA, Anupam, Kenneth agree upon. Kenneth(and Me and others) goes beyond this argument with the following line - Microsoft has had enough opportunities to participate in FOSS in the time so far. Microsoft has announced its intentions and beliefs rather clearly everytime - it doesn't like GPL/Free software/Opensource, and it will go to any length to subvert this community/movement/industry. It has shown its subversive intentions this time too - by undermining Linux in a Linux event by ostentatiously participating to show their open source offerings, and then promoting their closed source software as an alternative. Given this rather long track record of Microsoft, we feel that it has no place in an Free/Open Source event of any nature. Its presence(leave alone sponsorship) itself undermines the event's credibility. It is because of this argument, that we are considering whether we should associate ourselves with any organization which doesn't feel the same way about our movement. And please, for those focusing on the "practical side of Linux", it would be best that you stay away from this discussion. You obviously don't look at the larger picture. There would be no Linux/FOSS if people only focused on the "practical side". - Sandip ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 1:43 PM, vivek khurana wrote: > Kenneth this is too much. If you are making comment > on yourself then it is fine else do not think everyone > with liberal or broad view fail to accomplish > anything. dont be silly - does creative dot take a broad liberal view and allow proprietary stuff there? -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> > FOSS - Free Open Source Software > OSS - Open Source Software > > Please note the word 'software' in both these. > > that is what we are talking about here. There are > many other Free and/ > or Open thingies in the world. We are not talking > about them here. > Further i find people who take the 'liberal' or > 'broad' view never > accomplish anything as they never take a stand. And > especially on the > subject of microsoft, I pride myself on the > narrowness of my view. Kenneth this is too much. If you are making comment on yourself then it is fine else do not think everyone with liberal or broad view fail to accomplish anything. Example give by Janani has proven itself in a short span of one year that it is possible to have broad/liberal stand and accomplish bigger agendas. We had minor failure/problems here and there but we have overcome each time. Also, we are just geting started as far as creativedot is concerned. As for taking stace when it comes to M$ there are ample people in the list who had clear stance regarding M$. regards VK PS:- It will an honor for all of us if people can refrain making general comments on community as a whole. Engineers normally have problem with every solution. If not they have a solution in search of a problem. http://creative.linux-delhi.org Disclaimer The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw... No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> > > No, I didn't get it. Example, I couldn't find any > good video drivers for ATI Radeon 7000 card for Fedora > 4. Are going to write them for me for free? And yes, > please make sure that quality of driver is good. Don't > forget to write document and installation notes. > > g,d&r > > Thank You, > > http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/free_drivers.html Its upto the Vendor to Engage with the Community and Satisfy users like us , but again as users its our Job to keep pushing the vendors to work with the Community. Satya ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 12:14 PM, Janani Gopalakrishnan wrote: >> it isnt - it is a philosophy on how to make software. > > I know it's off-topic, but since you say this... what a narrow view, > Kenneth, it's a pity you think of free and open source as a philosophy > applying only to software. Check out creativedot for example! A real > philosophy, in my view, breaks narrow walls... and mindsets! FOSS - Free Open Source Software OSS - Open Source Software Please note the word 'software' in both these. that is what we are talking about here. There are many other Free and/ or Open thingies in the world. We are not talking about them here. Further i find people who take the 'liberal' or 'broad' view never accomplish anything as they never take a stand. And especially on the subject of microsoft, I pride myself on the narrowness of my view. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
>> (b) Does MS' presence at LA >> contribute to that focus or detract from it > > contributes +1. By actually spending a lot of money on LinuxAsia, Microsoft has publicly acknowledged that fact that F/OSS is a force to be contend with. This wasn't the case sometime back; and therefore, this is a welcome change. > the only question being asked here is 'should the community > participate in conferences where microsoft is a sponsor' - and if it > does, how does the community benefit? I don't see how community involvement in a M$ sponsored could actually be harmful in any way; but then again I don't see any major benefits either. Another point I want to put across is that all this trouble is only trouble if you think convincing lots of people to switch over to F/OSS is the primary goal of any such event. IMHO, this must not be the case. Like I've said before, the community shouldn't care a lot about evangelism, but more towards helping those who have _already_ made the decision to switch to F/OSS. As an individual of the F/OSS community, I really don't care if all the CEOs of top companies all over India got the wrong idea about F/OSS. I also don't care if M$ or whoever is sponsoring the event. All I care about is whether I can help those who attend my talk or tutorial or whatever. Really, you start losing sleep the day you start trying to convince other people to use F/OSS. If you're happy with what you have, and are happy to help others who are like-minded; then that's the real community. After all, no community has a "marketing" department! -- Anant ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> it isnt - it is a philosophy on how to make software. I know it's off-topic, but since you say this... what a narrow view, Kenneth, it's a pity you think of free and open source as a philosophy applying only to software. Check out creativedot for example! A real philosophy, in my view, breaks narrow walls... and mindsets! Cheers, Janani ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 11:41 AM, Raj Mathur wrote: > I think the questions being asked here (I could be wrong, of course) i think you are wrong > are (a) What is Linux-Asia's focus and to publicise LFY and sister publications and make money > (b) Does MS' presence at LA > contribute to that focus or detract from it contributes the only question being asked here is 'should the community participate in conferences where microsoft is a sponsor' - and if it does, how does the community benefit? -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 08-Feb-07, at 10:57 AM, Janani Gopalakrishnan wrote: > Hi all! > > First off, let me tell you that I had and have no intention of > jumping into > this debate, unfortunately you *have* jumped in > though I've been quietly watching it since the thread started. > Second, let me tell you that I'm pro-OSS but not anti-Microsoft and > that's > not abnormal... highly abnormal > many won't admit it if you do a "+1" voting here but I bet > there are quite a few people here who take a balanced view of both > proprietary and open source software. What works, works. if by 'balanced view' you mean neutral, very few people here are neutral. If they were, they wouldnt be here. It is the neutral people who take 'balanced views' and usualy keep quiet who are responsible for most of the trouble this planet is in. > > > "Isn't open source about being 'open', isn't it about a free > market, isn't > is about giving everybody a chance, isn't it about higher talent > and ideals > winning over lower ones, isn't it about people making their own > 'choices', it isnt - it is a philosophy on how to make software. In fact, there is no democracy in the FOSS world. The best rule. One doesnt go around giving others a 'chance'. And if you dont like it, go elsewhere. And that is what this debate is about - we dont like melas sponsored by microsoft and we wont go there. > then what is wrong in Microsoft participating? because microsoft doesnt participate > By trying to shut Microsoft > away from the Linux world, aren't you shutting competition away, > and in a > way playing at their own 'closed' game? To the best of my > understanding of > 'openness' as a word (and not as any hi-fi tech term), if one wants > to fight > Microsoft, the right way is to stand right next to them and prove > you are > better! Put up a stall right next to theirs and say, 'Hey, here, our > products are placed on a level playing field, next to each others', > now you > judge for yourself, aren't the OSS offerings as good as Microsoft's?'" so are you going to sponsor a FOSS stall in the next conference microsoft holds? > > Makes sense in an extremely earthy way, doesn't it?! it doesnt. It is said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Would your dad accept the opinions of a layman on an international debate on accounting standards to be adopted for the world? The 'neutral' and 'balanced' people are precisely those who havent deeply studied or experienced the implications of the various differences between what FOSS/OSS stands for and what microsoft pushes. Simplest of examples - find a CSS person who does not tear his hair and curse microsoft on a daily basis. Ask your dad to check out groklaw - microsoft doesnt 'play the game' - they use every dirty trick they can to subvert the F/OSS movement. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 08 February 2007 10:57, Janani Gopalakrishnan wrote: > [snip] > "Isn't open source about being 'open', isn't it about a free > market, isn't is about giving everybody a chance, isn't it about > higher talent and ideals winning over lower ones, isn't it about > people making their own 'choices', then what is wrong in Microsoft > participating? By trying to shut Microsoft away from the Linux > world, aren't you shutting competition away, and in a way playing > at their own 'closed' game? To the best of my understanding of > 'openness' as a word (and not as any hi-fi tech term), if one wants > to fight Microsoft, the right way is to stand right next to them > and prove you are better! Put up a stall right next to theirs and > say, 'Hey, here, our products are placed on a level playing field, > next to each others', now you judge for yourself, aren't the OSS > offerings as good as Microsoft's?'" Firstly, if you want to end a discussion, it's usually a good idea not to throw more ideas at it. As far as being open is concerned: openness and freedom don't mean ``Anything goes''. E.g. if I manage a free software mailing list (which I don't) it doesn't automatically become a forum for discussing Hindu-Muslim relations, the nuclear deal with America or promoting software patents or proprietary software, simply because the list charter includes the words ``free'' and ``open''. Entities such as mailing lists and events have a focus, and anything outside that focus area is to be eschewed. I think the questions being asked here (I could be wrong, of course) are (a) What is Linux-Asia's focus and (b) Does MS' presence at LA contribute to that focus or detract from it. If the answer to the second question is that it detracts, then ``open source'' cannot be used as a reason to justify its presence. To repeat the old adage, your freedom to move your fist ends where the tip of my nose begins. Regards, - -- Raju - -- Raj Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kandalaya.org/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F It is the mind that moves -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFyr8uyWjQ78xo0X8RArG+AKCQ3/9u8KW3tQ54EK3Efit+CoDFYwCdFSit LNoY++lh+zP/840ynsld7q0= =z62t -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007 (Pls read the complete news clipping)
--- Sandip Bhattacharya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Rahul, in what way was my "selective editing" > misrepresentative of my > point? I copy pasted the "relevant" content from > ET's epaper edition. In > any case, would I be so stupid to misquote from an > easily verifiable > source - that too a very popular one? > But Sandip isnt it a normal practice to post the link when quoting from third party published item. One of the reasons i stayed away from the thread initially was absence of link in original post. Please remember to give the original link when quoting someone else. regards VK Engineers normally have problem with every solution. If not they have a solution in search of a problem. http://creative.linux-delhi.org Disclaimer The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw... Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Hi all! First off, let me tell you that I had and have no intention of jumping into this debate, though I've been quietly watching it since the thread started. Second, let me tell you that I'm pro-OSS but not anti-Microsoft and that's not abnormal... many won't admit it if you do a "+1" voting here but I bet there are quite a few people here who take a balanced view of both proprietary and open source software. What works, works. But something happened this morning related to this thread, that I want to share with you... just a small interaction that set me thinking and I guess it might do the same to you. I was telling my dad on the phone about this debate about Microsoft in LinuxAsia. My dad is a chartered accountant who calls a spade a spade, he uses both proprietary and open source software, he "knows" about open source software, but not to the depth of analysing every word in every license and interpreting the terminology and stuff... let's say he has a commoner's view of the whole thing. With his basic knowledge he asked me something, a profound question which I now throw open to you all to answer "to yourself" (since I agree with Sankarshan that it *is* time to close this long-drawn and unfruitful discussion)... "Isn't open source about being 'open', isn't it about a free market, isn't is about giving everybody a chance, isn't it about higher talent and ideals winning over lower ones, isn't it about people making their own 'choices', then what is wrong in Microsoft participating? By trying to shut Microsoft away from the Linux world, aren't you shutting competition away, and in a way playing at their own 'closed' game? To the best of my understanding of 'openness' as a word (and not as any hi-fi tech term), if one wants to fight Microsoft, the right way is to stand right next to them and prove you are better! Put up a stall right next to theirs and say, 'Hey, here, our products are placed on a level playing field, next to each others', now you judge for yourself, aren't the OSS offerings as good as Microsoft's?'" Makes sense in an extremely earthy way, doesn't it?! Cheers, Janani Janani Vikram Gopalakrishnan http://gjanani.googlepages.com ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
--- "Mahesh T. Pai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Nah. They are not against _linux_ but against GPL. > Agsint freedom; > against freesoftware. It is is Linux's fault if it > is gpl'ed and Free > a.k.a swatantra. > > GOT IT? > No, I didn't get it. Example, I couldn't find any good video drivers for ATI Radeon 7000 card for Fedora 4. Are going to write them for me for free? And yes, please make sure that quality of driver is good. Don't forget to write document and installation notes. g,d&r Thank You, Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007 (Pls read the complete news clipping)
On 08-Feb-07, at 10:28 AM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote: > Let's leave the hoary discussion aside and move on as to how and > what to > do in future event where this is going to happen again and again. this discussion is not about convincing LA or about condemning them. It helps us clarify our stands and our thinking - at least it helps me. Maybe everyone else is crystal clear on all these issues, in which case maybe we should drop the discussion. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007 (Pls read the complete news clipping)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > PS: Interestingly, I CANNOT find any news item on the ET website with the > title "MS takes linux world by storm"...can you? I have been reading this thread and as of right now - why don't we just let it go ? Much as we try the event is past us and cannot be reverted and any amount of mailing would not really succeed in getting across why MSFT presence at a "Linux" event is not in sync. If MSFT did support/sponsor/contribute to any (F)OSS projects they might as well be at foss.in (where they have been traditionally absent). The LFY organisers saw merit in talking about Interoperability and thus getting MSFT although by that same token one should have also got IBM's AIX team and Apple's team (or whatever is left of it in Bangalore). The FOSS community does not see any merit in that thread of logic or argument. Let's leave the hoary discussion aside and move on as to how and what to do in future event where this is going to happen again and again. :Sankarshan - -- You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFyq4NXQZpNTcrCzMRAsJwAJ0brkthr5Xm9pF63orJUnPJ3T53LwCfXBhr 8phugtavuSzoBc34JceZKsM= =O024 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Second--since LA 04, we've been wanting Microsoft to participate in > LinuxAsia. In fact, it did present a couple of talks in the first Ah. The decision was made way back, 2 years ago. > a) Microsoft, due to its recent Novell deal, has entered the Linux > terrain--though indirectly. Recently, it even sold Novell's Linux' > Virtualisation Support to Walmart as part of a mega deal. Interesting. Since it is supposed to be free software (that is what both Microsoft and Novell say), can you distribute a version of that sofware on the next LFY CD? Preferably with source? > Can't we do "+1"for writing letters/emails to such > editors--explaining them the context and requesting them to do a > more balanced story? Ah. That is where we hoped people like you will help us. Not in writing letters to the ediotors, but taking the message direct to the target audience. But you decided, admittedly, 2 years back, that our messages will be on stationery paid for my our competition. Our heartfelt thanks!!! -- Mahesh T. Pai <<>> http://paivakil.blogspot.com/ free - (adj) able to act at will; not hampered; not under compulsion or restraint; free from obligations or duties; not bound to servitude; at liberty. ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Parthan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Anupam Jain wrote: > Asia' ? what products that MS exhibited there has relation to Linux. Their OS, probably? It is a competition to Gnu/linux, no? and that is relationship enough, no? > They are the first and biggest ones again Linux and what they are doing > in a so called Linux Conf ? Nah. They are not against _linux_ but against GPL. Agsint freedom; against freesoftware. It is is Linux's fault if it is gpl'ed and Free a.k.a swatantra. GOT IT? -- Mahesh T. Pai <<>> http://paivakil.blogspot.com/ ``Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty'' ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Naresh Narang wrote: > Hi there, > > 1. Why are we scared of Microsoft being there in the > event? s/Scared/Pissed Off ;) > 2. BTW as for the reason, Microsoft have their Linux > infrastructure in house to work on and do research. > They are taking on things that work in Linux and make > changes to their own products. They may, but it doesn't mean they can show their proprietary product which can not run in Linux, that too in a Linux Conference. > 3. By similar argument, why can't we take Linux in a > .NET event to just show anything that works? Yes, taking that you do so - will you be showing .Net or rather Mono on Linux or Java in Linux ? If you are coming to a Linux conf, show/speak the same. > It doesn't do much good, if we can't show TCO will be > less with Linux. Be realistic, why many people are > afraid to take on Linux ;) ahem! and.. you are mailing in a *Linux* user group's mailing list. -- With Regards Parthan (TechnoFreak) . A Proud GNU/Linux User and Ubuntero .0. ..0 [Web] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Parthan 000 [Blog]http://technofreakatchennai.wordpress.com ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Quoting Naresh Narang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hi there, > > 1. Why are we scared of Microsoft being there in the > event? who is scared? ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 08 February 2007 00:30, Anupam Jain wrote: > [snip] > I liked ILUGD better when it wasn't committee-ised and decisions > were not taken by individuals for the whole LUG. The freedom to > fork is good but not the decision to do so on the slightest of > provocation. It's not prudent to fragment the community like this. All the meetings that we had regarding participation in LA 2007 were announced on the list, and everyone was welcome to participate. Yes, decisions were taken by individuals, but ultimately all decisions are, aren't they? In this particular case, the individuals were the ones who bothered to come to the meetings. Considering we're one of the few (only?) LUGs in India that has bothered to register itself as a society and setup a democratic organisation, your comments and conclusions are completely wrong. If anyone wants to discuss issues with the ILUGD structure outside the LA frame, please start a new thread. Regards, - -- Raju - -- Raj Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kandalaya.org/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F It is the mind that moves -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFyptOyWjQ78xo0X8RAg6yAJ9pID8DSAvrpLu3pnKTo5nQJJrZYgCdFU2D 4Gvywesbw8q5SutaEUD5ZcM= =75vS -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Hi there, 1. Why are we scared of Microsoft being there in the event? 2. BTW as for the reason, Microsoft have their Linux infrastructure in house to work on and do research. They are taking on things that work in Linux and make changes to their own products. 3. By similar argument, why can't we take Linux in a .NET event to just show anything that works? It doesn't do much good, if we can't show TCO will be less with Linux. Be realistic, why many people are afraid to take on Linux ;) Regards, --Naresh Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007 (Pls read the complete news clipping)
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Hi friends, > > Pls allow me to clarify. > > 1. We had informed most speakers in advance about Microsoft's presence, > and sponsors too. At least all who had signed in after the deal. which Indian speakers did you inform? > > 2. We never intended to hide the fact. why didnt you announce it and celebrate it as a great achievement as you appear to think it is? ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Quoting Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > And in this case LA was our turf, our event. it wasnt. never was. it is a commercial event involved with linux, and the organisers wanted to involve the community too. Unfortunately, they went about it the wrong way and the community did not respond very well this year. (this was long before microsoft came into the picture). It is *not* a f/oss community event. All we are saying is that if the organisers want the community involved, they have to be responsive to the feelings of the community. In past LA events also they have not been very responsive and community participation has been on the low side. > Microsoft was in the > belly of David so to say. And yet we find our LUG faltering and > finding it hard to digest. We really could have handled it in a more > mature manner. faltering? It is not only ilugd that kept away. LUGs all over India did the same. And how should have it been handled anyway? ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Quoting Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Cmon are all sponsors necessarily connected with Linux? Most companies > sponsor events because they want advertising, not because they believe > in the cause. BS - pure BS. Take a look at the sponsorship list at foss.in. Most companies sponsor foss thingies because oss is part of their business model and are using and promoting it to, among other things, compete with their main rival which strangely enough, happens to be microsoft. At the very least, the companies that sponsor are not committed to the destruction of f/oss > Why should Microsoft be any different. the why of it is between you and uncle bill. But the fact is that microsoft *is* different. ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> > when an event of big scale is to be organized the > planning has to be > well in advance..& engaging with the community has > to begin early on & > not at last minute.. with less than a month left for > the event! I would second that. I have come to know preparations for LCA start 18 months in advance and they have a dedicated team to plan the event in advance. Preparation in advance is very important when communities are involved. Communities have an informal structure, even if they are committee-ised . There are individuals in every community having varying opinions. So it takes time to garner the support of the community as a whole. Communities are not efficient corporate and are slow to decide because communities normally have wider objectives than corporate. Ilugd for instance is not limited to supporting Linux only, but we support OSS overall, which happens to be bigger than Linux. regards VK Engineers normally have problem with every solution. If not they have a solution in search of a problem. http://creative.linux-delhi.org Disclaimer The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw... Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Quoting Sudev Barar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On 07/02/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > The only sparks that flew where when Microsoft made it abundantly clear > > > that they would use their patent portfolio to prevent the spread of GPL > > > software. > > > " > > > > Did something like that happen in LA too? If not then it's not > > something worth raising so much fuss over is it? > > Anupam did you attend LA? If yes then your opinion - unbiased - on > what M$ did to promote the theme - Linux Asia - is welcome. If not > then in line with your snipped comment "your opinion is not worth much > .. is it?" +1 ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007 (Pls read the complete news clipping)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > 4. VERY IMP POINT!!! > > Interestingly, the para selected for the discussion SEEMS TO BE A GREAT > EXAMPLE OF SELECTIVE EDITING. No URL for this story was provided for all > of us to view the complete story. > > Our PR agency recently sent us press-clippings of LinuxAsia. A story > published in ET (Delhi) seems to be same as the one stated to be from ET > (Blore). > > PLEASE NOTE THAT THE TITLE IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT! Rahul, in what way was my "selective editing" misrepresentative of my point? I copy pasted the "relevant" content from ET's epaper edition. In any case, would I be so stupid to misquote from an easily verifiable source - that too a very popular one? - Sandip ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/7/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2/7/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 07-Feb-07, at 5:24 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > > > >> hold that doing so is the biggest danger to the development of > > >> software. So the analogy is exact. > > > > > > Wouldn't you call making money from software being "in the software > > > business"? > > > > making money how? that is the question. I make money buying and > > selling shares and the money i make depends on my knowledge of the > > share market. You make money buying and selling shares and the money > > you make depends on manipulating the market and insider trading. Are > > we in the same business? > > On 2/7/07, Sudev Barar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Anupam did you attend LA? If yes then your opinion - unbiased - on > > what M$ did to promote the theme - Linux Asia - is welcome. If not > > then in line with your snipped comment "your opinion is not worth much > > .. is it?" > > > > Appreciate the fact that there is whole lot of community involved and > > we are open to LiFY's view point in spite of obvious hurt caused by > > their action to something the community hold dear. If you do not hold > > OSS and Linux dear to your heart then also we will welcome you to > > express your opinions but do not crap on our face and expect us to be > > silent. > > Again I somehow feel that we have this image of Microsoft that we love > to believe in. Shouldn't we react to Microsoft-the-company's-actions > instead of Microsoft-the-company-period? Targetting Microsoft perhaps > gives us a big target to fight, but only when fighting *for the cause* > is not good enough. For me the cause is bigger than Microsoft and it's > trying to muscle in on Linux events is only a sign of good things. I > would not lose sleep over it. > > I was not in Delhi during that time and could not attend but I plan to > do it the next time unless someone gives me a good reason to do so > otherwise. If something negative happened in LA this time do let us > know. It would be a very sad thing to see no participation from ILUGD > for reasons *unknown*. > becoz you missed the ILUGD meetings..! i think the roots of community being skeptic about LA were set in the past events itself.. & personally after seeing 2006 one.. & participating in .ORG mela fiasco, i too share the mood...where you could feel the impression that here the community is secondary!.. thankfully there wasnt a .org mela again (whatever their reasons).. when an event of big scale is to be organized the planning has to be well in advance..& engaging with the community has to begin early on & not at last minute.. with less than a month left for the event! Karunakar ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/7/07, Sandip Bhattacharya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > vivek khurana wrote: > > --- Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> On 07-Feb-07, at 12:56 PM, vivek khurana wrote: > >> > >>> Just one presentation with no explaination from > >> any > >>> reperesntative regarding the purpose of > >> presentation. > >>> Yes a presentation was running along with demo of > >>> Vista and M$ office 2007. > >> which open source project?? > >> > > I don't know which one. But this has been in the news lately. > > http://odf-converter.sourceforge.net/ > > But again, this was not done by benevolence. Microsoft is forced to > provide this to ensure compatibility with ODF which is being slowly > standardised around the world. > This was not on display at the event!.. just some "wow with Vista" show!.. Karunakar ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007 (Pls read thecomplete news clipping)
Wow! thanks Ashish. Seems like this original article got changed within the same day or the Delhi article replaced the Chennai version! Kudos to the editor (of ET), for having realised the complete picture soon enough :-) And thankfully, though the stated title is there---the text seems to have a similar "IF YOU can't beat them why not join them" tone to it. Regards rahul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ashish Shukla Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 1:26 AM To: The Linux-Delhi mailing list Subject: Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007 (Pls read thecomplete news clipping) On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 01:07:31AM +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] > PS: Interestingly, I CANNOT find any news item on the ET website with the > title "MS takes linux world by storm"...can you? > > Must add, I did try to google this titlethere's one find...of an ET > entry...same date...but no news turns up...just the statement stating... > > >> Page not found > The page you have requested might no longer exist, has had its name > changed, or is temporarily unavailable. http://google.com/search?q=cache:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1545266,prtpage-1.cms Thanks Ashish Shukla -- Ashish Shukla "Wah Java !!" आशीष शुक्ल ,= ,-_-. =. webpages: http://wahjava.googlepages.com ((_/)o o(\_)) weblog: http://wahjava.wordpress.com `-'(. .)`-' PGP: 1E00 4679 77E4 F8EE 2E4B 56F2 1F2F 8410 762E 5E74 \_/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Hi, On 2/8/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2/7/07, Sandip Bhattacharya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You can't blame the media - the media sees from the common man's > > viewpoint. What else can you make out from Microsoft participating in a > > Linux event and a Microsoft spokesman talking about how M$ is better > > than Linux in TCO? We see things the same way that Media sees it. > > > > If LA believes that their actions were right and they have "effectively" > > handled the situation, then this is point where the LUG and LA should > > part ways permanently - their idea of what promotion of Linux is about, > > and ours obviously differs. They have the right to continue doing what > > they are doing. And we have the right to go our own way doing what we > > feel is right. > > That would indeed be a sad event, but more importantly, a completely > avoidable one, *if* people let their ego go a little. > > I liked ILUGD better when it wasn't committee-ised and decisions were > not taken by individuals for the whole LUG. The freedom to fork is > good but not the decision to do so on the slightest of provocation. > It's not prudent to fragment the community like this. Then who is supposed to take decisions. Do you want a poll to be conducted for each and every decison that is taken? It's very easy to say that it could have done this way and that way. Looking back at past one and half years of ILUG-D activities, I've seen instances of many volunteering to do some work and then backing out at last moment. At the end of day only same bunch of people end up doing all the work and that too without making any fuss. Regards Nikhil Prabhakar ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Akshay Lamba > The way I see it there are 3 stands here: > 1. The event organizers really believes in the stand they took and are > ready to defend it > 2. The event organizers is justifying it's stand by sugar coating the > basic facts (a CYA tactic) > 3. The event organizers had a noble intention however that did not work > out as planned and a lesson has been learnt > I believe, through this thread, we are only trying to understand which > of the 3 above (or maybe a 4th option) is the truth here. Either way, > LFY's contribution to OSS is not being questioned and is appreciated. It's a combo of #1 and #3 A ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007 (Pls read the complete news clipping)
On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 01:07:31AM +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] > PS: Interestingly, I CANNOT find any news item on the ET website with the > title "MS takes linux world by storm"...can you? > > Must add, I did try to google this titlethere's one find...of an ET > entry...same date...but no news turns up...just the statement stating... > > >> Page not found > The page you have requested might no longer exist, has had its name > changed, or is temporarily unavailable. http://google.com/search?q=cache:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1545266,prtpage-1.cms Thanks Ashish Shukla -- Ashish Shukla "Wah Java !!" आशीष शुक्ल ,= ,-_-. =. webpages: http://wahjava.googlepages.com ((_/)o o(\_)) weblog: http://wahjava.wordpress.com `-'(. .)`-' PGP: 1E00 4679 77E4 F8EE 2E4B 56F2 1F2F 8410 762E 5E74 \_/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007 (Pls read the complete news clipping)
Hi friends, Pls allow me to clarify. 1. We had informed most speakers in advance about Microsoft's presence, and sponsors too. At least all who had signed in after the deal. 2. We never intended to hide the fact. We had mentioned the possibility of Microsoft coming in as a sponsor even during our first meeting with ilug-D officials. And yes, we had agreed to not have Microsoft sponsor the Tech track is ILUG-D was there with us, but since that deal fell apart, we did not push that clause with Microsoft. 3. No topic or theme got changed after Microsoft came in. Infact some topics were tightened to promote Linux/OSS--which you can simply guage from the copy of our ads in ET. 4. VERY IMP POINT!!! Interestingly, the para selected for the discussion SEEMS TO BE A GREAT EXAMPLE OF SELECTIVE EDITING. No URL for this story was provided for all of us to view the complete story. Our PR agency recently sent us press-clippings of LinuxAsia. A story published in ET (Delhi) seems to be same as the one stated to be from ET (Blore). PLEASE NOTE THAT THE TITLE IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT! I am pasting the original piece (and the URL) with IMP sections marked by "*". PLEASE READ IT. I feel this news item itself indicates that Linux/OSS emerged as a strong contender (and Microsoft's presence proved it). Looks like we won't need to send those letters/emails to the editors and journos - story starts here --- Publication : The Economic Times Edition : Online Date: January 31, 2007 URL: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/MS_to_debut_at_Linux_Asia_07/articleshow/1541733.cms MS to debut at Linux Asia 2007 (remarks: this seems to be very different from the stated title, "MS takes linux world by storm") TIMES NEWS NETWORK [WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 31, 2007 03:51:13 AM] NEW DELHI: * If you can't beat them why not join them. This could well be Microsoft's new mantra. * (Remarks: It seems to us that Linux/OSS emerged stronger--right from the start!) For the first time ever Redmond Giant Microsoft will be rubbing shoulders with its arch rival, the Penguin (Linux mascot) at Linux Asia 2007. For quite some time Microsoft has been concerned about the growing open source movement, the increasing appeal and adoption of Linux in enterprise servers and by governments. ** Participation in the Linux party, starting on Wednesday in the national capital, attests to the fact that Microsoft is worried about competition from the open source community. *** In the last several years Microsoft has been facing the heat from its smaller rivals. Many like Google are seen as thought leaders of the internet era, and not Microsoft, one of the world's largest commercial software vendor. * Participating in Linux Asia is seen by experts as Microsoft's bid to ensure that it is not isolated in some of the fastest growing markets for software in the world. * When asked about its participation in Linux Asia Microsoft said that the company will try to educate clients and communicate about its new stance towards open source. Radhesh Balakrishnan, director, platform strategy, Microsoft told ET, ``open source software is turning commercial and commercial software is becoming more open to open source. We believe that interoperability between the two is the way to the future. People have created a myth in the minds of clients that the world can work only either on open source or on commercial software. Rather than being carried over by rhetoric, clients should rather look at lowering TCO (Total Cost Of Ownership). According to a Frost & Sullivan study, Windows offers 15.9% lower TCO than Linux on server side." (Remarks: this is the only para that was chosen for this discussion) ** Microsoft Windows market share is going on a roller coaster ride thanks to Linux. * (Remarks: did Linux/OSS lose at all) According to IDC Windows accounted for 68.1%, 65.3%, 69.5% and 68.2% of the total x86 servers shipped in India in Q3 2005, Q4 2005, Q1 2006 and Q2 2006, respectively. Open source supporters have long accused Microsoft of security flaws but Microsoft counters that. "Microsoft also has a record of patching up vulnerabilities in one-third of the time compared to Linux. You need to pay to get security updates in Linux whereas in Windows its free," Mr Balakrishnan said. Adds Sandeep Menon, Forum for Open Source Initiative in India (FOSII) and director of Linux business for Novell West Asia: "Microsoft's decision to participate in the Linux Asia 2007 for the first time shows maturity on its part. It indicates that the industry cannot operate without open source and has become its integral part." Nevertheless, Microsoft did face apprehensions from the Linux Asia organisers on expressing intent to participate. "They inquired about our intent behind the interest to participate. We told them we wanted to bridge the two worlds and educate clients," Mr Menon sai
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/7/07, Sandip Bhattacharya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > vivek khurana wrote: > > --- Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> On 07-Feb-07, at 12:56 PM, vivek khurana wrote: > >> > >>> Just one presentation with no explaination from > >> any > >>> reperesntative regarding the purpose of > >> presentation. > >>> Yes a presentation was running along with demo of > >>> Vista and M$ office 2007. > >> which open source project?? > >> > > I don't know which one. But this has been in the news lately. > > http://odf-converter.sourceforge.net/ For some time now, I've been developing programs in a programming language called Haskell. It's an awesome language and is about as FOSSy and Linuxy as a language can be. Needless to say it caused significant (and very justifiable) concern amongst the Haskell community when Simon Peyton Jones and Simon Marlow (both lead developers of GHC - the de facto Haskell implementation) joined Microsoft. There were talks of Microsoft sabotaging GHC's development and Linux support, but it has been several years since and I see none of that happening. GHC is still very much on the cutting edge of development, very much FOSS and perhaps surprisingly much easier to use on Linux than Windows! Here's quoting from one of the Simons - "It's very nice working for an outfit that lets you do full-time research, doing pretty much what you want to do. Microsoft generally has fairly bad press, but I think that this is something that Microsoft should really brag about, because they pay lots of people to do essentially very freely directed research. They don't correct our papers, they let us go to whatever conferences we want to. I'm publishing at a higher rate than I did at the university." Now, I admit he is probably biased in favour of his employer and I *know* Microsoft isn't exactly an angel, but still the fact remains that Simon is a very active and productive FOSS developer inspite of being deep embedded inside the belly of the Goliath. No MS can influence a true Linuxer.. If he (she) is strong enough and determined enough. And in this case LA was our turf, our event. Microsoft was in the belly of David so to say. And yet we find our LUG faltering and finding it hard to digest. We really could have handled it in a more mature manner. Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/7/07, Sandip Bhattacharya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Anupam Jain wrote: > > I really don't understand what the big deal is. If the agenda was > > sabotaged by Microsoft by just being a partrner/sponsor then let's > > hear it in concrete terms *how*. > > This was supposed to be a Linux promotion event. This was not "IT 2007" > or the like, where everybody related to software have the right to be > there and heard. So, is it fair that we expect that the event would be > about companies promoting Linux as a platform of choice? > > Whether you have Microsoft's own .Net event, or IBM's own developerworks > events, do you see parties with an alternative to offer, to get a chance > to come, show off their wares and talk about how their offering is > better than the one which is the centerpiece of the event? It never > happens. It is a convention, if you want to put it that way. This was a > Linux event - we are not interested in going to the event hearing people > talk about something belittling what we are interested in. Exactly! Linuxers would go to the event and ignore whatever crap is doled out by the MS drones. Did their sponsorship affect our thinking at all? No! They know that and we know that. They just have money to burn and fear FOSS enough to try out everything they can, even futile things. Why bother? Why all the infighting? > > Now "Linuxers" are a breed apart. They are philosophically attached to > their platform of choice, and believe that what closed source offers is > an anti-thesis of what Linuxers stand for. Having a closed source > company whose whole business purpose is to undermine Linux [1], talk in > such a meet is preposterous. You can't underrate sentiments and > philosophy when you are talking Linux and call it out of place in a > business world - it is the fundamental base on which the Free and Open > Source movement was founded, Linux being but a part of it. > First, there are millions of Linuxers out there who do not believe in RMS's FOSS philosophy (I *do* BTW). They use Linux and Windows happily, whatever gets their work done. There is an equally large group of people who are confused and/or scared by the staunch philosophy that underlies FOSS. They use Linux because it's Free as in beer and not as in speech. They are comfortable with it and call Linux their own without attachment to any philosophy. There is a huge group of people (Who prefer the term Open Source over Free Software) who use FOSS solely for its practical utility, people who believe that Open Source is simply the best way to get work done. There are also people who differ with RMS and you and me on the definition of Freedom and the direction Linux should take. Linux based companies, Linux User Groups, and Linux Events do and should cater to all the above people, even if you and I do not think they match our philosophy. > Our anger is because we see Microsoft knowingly entering into this event > and sabotaging it from within - we are still trying to determine whether > LA cares about it or not. From LA's side of the story, they are still > trying to defend their actions instead of apologizing for the > embarrassment their decision has cost the Linux community in India. I still do not see why they should apologise, and I really hope they don't. > You can't blame the media - the media sees from the common man's > viewpoint. What else can you make out from Microsoft participating in a > Linux event and a Microsoft spokesman talking about how M$ is better > than Linux in TCO? We see things the same way that Media sees it. > > If LA believes that their actions were right and they have "effectively" > handled the situation, then this is point where the LUG and LA should > part ways permanently - their idea of what promotion of Linux is about, > and ours obviously differs. They have the right to continue doing what > they are doing. And we have the right to go our own way doing what we > feel is right. That would indeed be a sad event, but more importantly, a completely avoidable one, *if* people let their ego go a little. I liked ILUGD better when it wasn't committee-ised and decisions were not taken by individuals for the whole LUG. The freedom to fork is good but not the decision to do so on the slightest of provocation. It's not prudent to fragment the community like this. Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/7/07, Parthan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Anupam Jain wrote: > I > > see nothing wrong with letting MS parade the choices it has for offer > > and us parading what we have. If MS pays us good money to hold such a > > showoff and that too *on our turf* then what is the problem? > > Why should MS parade its products on a conference named *Linux* Asia. Is > it a conference like 'Computer Asia' or 'Technology Asia' or 'Software > Asia' ? what products that MS exhibited there has relation to Linux. > They are the first and biggest ones again Linux and what they are doing > in a so called Linux Conf ? > > What interest does MS have in sponsoring a event which is all about > something they think as their foremost threat to their future existence ? Let's not have any illusions. Microsoft joined in the party for its own personal selfish gains. It would be illogical to think otherwise. But the point is did succeed in harming the community? The FOSS community is (or should be) such that it cannot be sneaked upon. Everything is open and everyone's opinion counts. What happens when Microsoft joins a Linux event? They pay big money which helps more such events to be held in the first place. They advertise their products to a decidedly pro-Linux crowd who isn't probably going to be influenced any ways (and if someone does get influenced then we need to get our act together). Basically they have the money to try anything, and they are trying everything, even such things as advertising in Linux magazines and sponsoring Linux events. We know how futile these things are and we can just sit back and enjoy the popcorn. We can't stop MS from trying to undermine Linux. So I'd rather have them trying sneaky things that do us more good than harm, than to do things that only harm us. > Why are > > we worried unless we believe that Vista is better than Linux and MS is > > better than FOSS and so on and so forth. > > > > Why you want to compare so crap with Linux ? And why should such things > be displayed in a place which should have been all about Linux or at > least something related to or connecting with Linux. Cmon are all sponsors necessarily connected with Linux? Most companies sponsor events because they want advertising, not because they believe in the cause. Why should Microsoft be any different. Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/7/07, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 07-Feb-07, at 5:24 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: > > >> hold that doing so is the biggest danger to the development of > >> software. So the analogy is exact. > > > > Wouldn't you call making money from software being "in the software > > business"? > > making money how? that is the question. I make money buying and > selling shares and the money i make depends on my knowledge of the > share market. You make money buying and selling shares and the money > you make depends on manipulating the market and insider trading. Are > we in the same business? On 2/7/07, Sudev Barar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Anupam did you attend LA? If yes then your opinion - unbiased - on > what M$ did to promote the theme - Linux Asia - is welcome. If not > then in line with your snipped comment "your opinion is not worth much > .. is it?" > > Appreciate the fact that there is whole lot of community involved and > we are open to LiFY's view point in spite of obvious hurt caused by > their action to something the community hold dear. If you do not hold > OSS and Linux dear to your heart then also we will welcome you to > express your opinions but do not crap on our face and expect us to be > silent. Again I somehow feel that we have this image of Microsoft that we love to believe in. Shouldn't we react to Microsoft-the-company's-actions instead of Microsoft-the-company-period? Targetting Microsoft perhaps gives us a big target to fight, but only when fighting *for the cause* is not good enough. For me the cause is bigger than Microsoft and it's trying to muscle in on Linux events is only a sign of good things. I would not lose sleep over it. I was not in Delhi during that time and could not attend but I plan to do it the next time unless someone gives me a good reason to do so otherwise. If something negative happened in LA this time do let us know. It would be a very sad thing to see no participation from ILUGD for reasons *unknown*. Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 07/02/07, Anupam Jain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The only sparks that flew where when Microsoft made it abundantly clear > > that they would use their patent portfolio to prevent the spread of GPL > > software. > > " > > Did something like that happen in LA too? If not then it's not > something worth raising so much fuss over is it? Anupam did you attend LA? If yes then your opinion - unbiased - on what M$ did to promote the theme - Linux Asia - is welcome. If not then in line with your snipped comment "your opinion is not worth much .. is it?" Appreciate the fact that there is whole lot of community involved and we are open to LiFY's view point in spite of obvious hurt caused by their action to something the community hold dear. If you do not hold OSS and Linux dear to your heart then also we will welcome you to express your opinions but do not crap on our face and expect us to be silent. But this is digressing from dicussion -- Regards, Sudev Barar ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
> A booklet distributed by Microsoft at the CXOSummit presented how > Microsoft was working with Open Source projects! I believe the same was > running as a presentation on their booth too. For me it is Free Software and not Open Source. I have heard Microsoft executives boast of their six 'open source' projects in Sourceforge. How does it help? Is Microsoft in any way committed to championing the cause of software freedom? For someone who sells a magazine named after one of the more well-known and sucessful Free Software programs, this might be a good chance to make money but is highly damaging for the Free Software community and software freedom. > Now how many events have witnessed that? :-) I witnessed that, when I visited the Microsoft office in Hyderabad in December 2005. > Plus, if you see the point of the 'customers' a wholistic event builds > more trust than a one sided affair. Wow! Stupid joke. Never followed Linux for You much, and would not do so in future. Regards, Debarshi -- After the game the king and the pawn go into the same box. -- Italian proverb ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 2/7/07, Raj Shekhar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Anupam Jain wrote: > > > > FOSS is not about forcing a choice. It's about letting people know > > that a choice exists so that they can take a well informed decision. I > > see nothing wrong with letting MS parade the choices it has for offer > > and us parading what we have. If MS pays us good money to hold such a > > showoff and that too *on our turf* then what is the problem? Why are > > we worried unless we believe that Vista is better than Linux and MS is > > better than FOSS and so on and so forth. > > This argument is based on the assumption that MS will play fair. If you > read link that I posted < > http://samba.org/samba/news/articles/low_point/column11.html>, you will > see this quote > " > The only sparks that flew where when Microsoft made it abundantly clear > that they would use their patent portfolio to prevent the spread of GPL > software. > " Did something like that happen in LA too? If not then it's not something worth raising so much fuss over is it? Regards, Anupam Jain ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Maybe we should create an orkut community titled "MS trojan horse @ LA" ;-) ducking and running VK Engineers normally have problem with every solution. If not they have a solution in search of a problem. http://creative.linux-delhi.org Disclaimer The facts expressed here belong to everybody, the opinions to me. The distinction is yours to draw... Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
vivek khurana wrote: > --- Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> On 07-Feb-07, at 12:56 PM, vivek khurana wrote: >> >>> Just one presentation with no explaination from >> any >>> reperesntative regarding the purpose of >> presentation. >>> Yes a presentation was running along with demo of >>> Vista and M$ office 2007. >> which open source project?? >> I don't know which one. But this has been in the news lately. http://odf-converter.sourceforge.net/ But again, this was not done by benevolence. Microsoft is forced to provide this to ensure compatibility with ODF which is being slowly standardised around the world. - Sandip ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Anupam Jain wrote: > I really don't understand what the big deal is. If the agenda was > sabotaged by Microsoft by just being a partrner/sponsor then let's > hear it in concrete terms *how*. This was supposed to be a Linux promotion event. This was not "IT 2007" or the like, where everybody related to software have the right to be there and heard. So, is it fair that we expect that the event would be about companies promoting Linux as a platform of choice? Whether you have Microsoft's own .Net event, or IBM's own developerworks events, do you see parties with an alternative to offer, to get a chance to come, show off their wares and talk about how their offering is better than the one which is the centerpiece of the event? It never happens. It is a convention, if you want to put it that way. This was a Linux event - we are not interested in going to the event hearing people talk about something belittling what we are interested in. Now "Linuxers" are a breed apart. They are philosophically attached to their platform of choice, and believe that what closed source offers is an anti-thesis of what Linuxers stand for. Having a closed source company whose whole business purpose is to undermine Linux [1], talk in such a meet is preposterous. You can't underrate sentiments and philosophy when you are talking Linux and call it out of place in a business world - it is the fundamental base on which the Free and Open Source movement was founded, Linux being but a part of it. [1] http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver/facts/default.mspx Our anger is because we see Microsoft knowingly entering into this event and sabotaging it from within - we are still trying to determine whether LA cares about it or not. From LA's side of the story, they are still trying to defend their actions instead of apologizing for the embarrassment their decision has cost the Linux community in India. You can't blame the media - the media sees from the common man's viewpoint. What else can you make out from Microsoft participating in a Linux event and a Microsoft spokesman talking about how M$ is better than Linux in TCO? We see things the same way that Media sees it. If LA believes that their actions were right and they have "effectively" handled the situation, then this is point where the LUG and LA should part ways permanently - their idea of what promotion of Linux is about, and ours obviously differs. They have the right to continue doing what they are doing. And we have the right to go our own way doing what we feel is right. - Sandip ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
Anupam Jain wrote: I > see nothing wrong with letting MS parade the choices it has for offer > and us parading what we have. If MS pays us good money to hold such a > showoff and that too *on our turf* then what is the problem? Why should MS parade its products on a conference named *Linux* Asia. Is it a conference like 'Computer Asia' or 'Technology Asia' or 'Software Asia' ? what products that MS exhibited there has relation to Linux. They are the first and biggest ones again Linux and what they are doing in a so called Linux Conf ? What interest does MS have in sponsoring a event which is all about something they think as their foremost threat to their future existence ? Why are > we worried unless we believe that Vista is better than Linux and MS is > better than FOSS and so on and so forth. > Why you want to compare so crap with Linux ? And why should such things be displayed in a place which should have been all about Linux or at least something related to or connecting with Linux. But if this LUG boycotts a Linux event being > organised by a company actively promoting Linux just because MS was > allowed to make an appearance and put forward it's views, I have a > right to be appalled. I am afraid that wasnt the only and the foremost reason. Please check Mr.Gora's reply in this thread to know the *real* reason for ilugd walking out. -- With Regards Parthan (TechnoFreak) . A Proud GNU/Linux User and Ubuntero .0. ..0 [Web] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Parthan 000 [Blog]http://technofreakatchennai.wordpress.com ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
Re: [ilugd] The MS trojan horse in Linux Asia 2007
On 07-Feb-07, at 5:24 PM, Anupam Jain wrote: >> hold that doing so is the biggest danger to the development of >> software. So the analogy is exact. > > Wouldn't you call making money from software being "in the software > business"? making money how? that is the question. I make money buying and selling shares and the money i make depends on my knowledge of the share market. You make money buying and selling shares and the money you make depends on manipulating the market and insider trading. Are we in the same business? > > Ok let me put it this way - I also make money from creating software, > it's the sole way I earn my daily b & b. The company I work for very > much treats it like a commodity and I am not against that viewpoint. > Would you (if it were up to you) bar me from attending LA events in > the future? Ask anyone around me and they would tell you how much of a > Linux-head I am, selling FOSS's virtues to the slightest of receptive > ears. Isn't my interest in the Linux community enough to make me a > part of it? I wouldnt bar you - because there is some interest in foss/oss. But i would bar you if one of your main aims was to crush foss and oss > > It really isn't a comfortable argument for me, comparing myself with > MS the-evil-one. But if this LUG boycotts a Linux event being > organised by a company actively promoting Linux just because MS was > allowed to make an appearance and put forward it's views, I have a > right to be appalled. If something sneaky and underhanded took place > which compromised the LA agenda, let us know what exactly it was. > Otherwise don't spread FUD. not a question of MS being 'allowed to make an appearance and put forward its views'. They were invited in and given top billing - solely for monetary gain. And slipped in sneakily and in an underhand way - if the organisers were proud of what they did, how come they didnt boldly announce it? They flooded all lug lists with any number of announcements anyway. Microsoft has no business in a foss/oss/ linux meet. And so-called organisers who want to call their meets foss/oss/linux have no business inviting microsoft. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate, NRC-FOSS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
