Re: More Nature of Morality was Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Hi, Gilberto, I wrote: However, I assume you believe in contextualizing some sort of timeless (?) essentialist morality. You replied: Sure. Except I'm not sure I can clearly even imagine the alternative. My understanding of existentialism would suggest an individual boldly making whatever decisions they wanted and taking responsibility for them. But I'm not sure what an existentialist morality would be. If you mean the views of folks like Sartre and Camus, I am not an existentialist. The availability of divine Revelation provides us with additional choices. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: More Nature of Morality was Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto, At 06:50 PM 1/30/2005, you wrote: Yes, I know. Existentialism and Essentialism are often contrasted. So if Mark is opposing essentialist morality it suggests or at least raises the possibility that he is defending some version of existentialism. Okay. I wasn't sure why you referred to existentialism. It is true that essentialism and existentialism have often been contrasted, but essentialism can also be contrasted with other positions, as well, including positivism, logical positivism, William James' pragmatism, nominalism, particularism, social constructionism, ethnomethodology, etc. Existentialism is sometimes defined as the idea that your existence comes before your essence. You first are born, you exist, and THEN, through living and making decisions you decide for yourself what kind of person you will become, your essence. THAT you are, comes before WHAT you are. Although some Existentialists were theists, it is often associated with atheism. The definition of existentialism you provided came from Sartre. However, if you are referring to Soren Kierkegaard, I agree with some of his views, including his rejection of natural theology. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: More Nature of Morality was Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
In my personal gestalt, I have often equated Sartre with Warholesque theatricalism. For existential think, I far prefer Albert Camus and Soren Kirkegaard. Well, Camus certainly perfected the art of tragedy. What about Sartre do you think is pop culturist? Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: More Nature of Morality was Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto, At 07:55 AM 1/30/2005, you wrote: I gave this a little more thought and I think that perhaps we could all agree that morality can be situational and that what is appropriate or inappropriate can depend on the concrete specifics of a situation, but I think that would still see morality as more objective and in some respects prior to a prophet, while both of you would see morality as very much dependent on the Manifestation. That would be my view, yes. However, I assume you believe in contextualizing some sort of timeless (?) essentialist morality I'm more likely to say that the prophets command X because X is right. While I think both of you would say that X is right because the Manifestation commands X. Right, that is how I see it. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: More Nature of Morality was Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:36:14 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 07:55 AM 1/30/2005, you wrote: I gave this a little more thought and I think that perhaps we could all agree that morality can be situational and that what is appropriate or inappropriate can depend on the concrete specifics of a situation, but I think that would still see morality as more objective and in some respects prior to a prophet, while both of you would see morality as very much dependent on the Manifestation. That would be my view, yes. However, I assume you believe in contextualizing some sort of timeless (?) essentialist morality Sure. Except I'm not sure I can clearly even imagine the alternative. My understanding of existentialism would suggest an individual boldly making whatever decisions they wanted and taking responsibility for them. But I'm not sure what an existentialist morality would be. Peace Gilberto pharoah is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: More Nature of Morality was Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/30/2005 12:52:43 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That would be my view, yes. However, I assume you believe in contextualizing some sort of timeless (?) essentialist moralitySure. Except I'm not sure I can clearly even imagine the alternative.My understanding of existentialism would suggest an individual boldlymaking whatever decisions they wanted and taking responsibility forthem. But I'm not sure what an "existentialist morality" would be. The original author said "essentialist", not "existentialist". Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: More Nature of Morality was Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:09:27 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/30/2005 12:52:43 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That would be my view, yes. However, I assume you believe in contextualizing some sort of timeless (?) essentialist morality Sure. Except I'm not sure I can clearly even imagine the alternative. My understanding of existentialism would suggest an individual boldly making whatever decisions they wanted and taking responsibility for them. But I'm not sure what an existentialist morality would be. The original author said essentialist, not existentialist. Yes, I know. Existentialism and Essentialism are often contrasted. So if Mark is opposing essentialist morality it suggests or at least raises the possibility that he is defending some version of existentialism. Existentialism is sometimes defined as the idea that your existence comes before your essence. You first are born, you exist, and THEN, through living and making decisions you decide for yourself what kind of person you will become, your essence. THAT you are, comes before WHAT you are. Although some Existentialists were theists, it is often associated with atheism. Essentialism tends to emphasize the other side. God created us and before we were born we had a certain purpose, and God-given human nature with certain attributes. And other things tend to be associated with this perspective too. To really get into the whole issue would probably take a really long discussion. Peace Gilberto -- pharoah is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Nature of Morality Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto, At 01:13 AM 1/28/2005, you wrote: or even trial and error, sure. Well, thought experiments are not exactly based on trial and error. I wrote: I am not sure what you mean by certain kinds of actions. However, off the top of my head, I can think of many situations in which that would not be the case. When I went to Zaire, now the Republic of the Congo, it was normative for customs officials to beg for money. (They did it to me.) What would happen if a customs official did the same in the U.S. or Germany? You replied: I'm not sure what you mean by that in that would not be the case. You are the one hung up on the names now. I wouldn't assume that begging for money in Zeire is the same as begging for money in Germany. And perhaps you could say that in Zaire customs officials occurs frequently and went on unpunished. I'm not sure if that makes it normative. I don't see how saying, I can think of many situations in which that would not be the case, is being hung up with names. You would need to explain that to me. From what I was told, begging for money by customs officials was normative. Given the problems in that country, I did not fault them for it. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto (not dear Gilberto): If by moral relativism you mean the kind of mentality and attitude that anything goes and everything is OK, then Baha'is are definitely not moral relativists. As I said, just read Shoghi Effendi's Advent of Divine Justice for example. The relativism that we Baha'is are talking about is from one religious Dispensation to another and also within one Dispensation as well. For instance, in the early days of Islam wine was not strictly and categorically forbidden under all circumstances. The Quran first says that: if you are drunk, don't come to the congregational prayer. Later, it says that drinking is not such a great idea. Finally, wine was categorically forbidden. you can call this moral relativism or not; you can call this progressive revealtion or not. You can call it whatever you wish. But it doesn't change the fact. Or, the Qiblih for prayer used to be Jerusalem for Muslims in early Islam for some 15-16 years until it was abruptly changed to the K`abah in the middle of a prayer session while the K`abah was still occupied by idols (before the city of Mecca had been won) which act caused some consternation amongst the early believers. What do you, Gilberto, think I was suggesting about the Prophet Abraham's actions or motives or character? What did you disagree with? Iskandar Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:22 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Iskandar, I think you are misunderstanding Gilberto and his intentions. I do not think he is saying that Baha'is don't take morality seriously, so there is no need for an apology. Gilberto is stating the Islamic stance on the issue, which is different from the Baha'i view. I am positive he is aware that Baha'is take morality seriously. Thanks, I'm definitely not trying to say Bahais are less moral in their behavior than anyone else. I'm just trying to express disagreement with moral relativism. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Nature of Morality Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:41:05 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, I wrote: What kind of reasoning process? You replied: One example would be through some kind of deliberative process where we think about the consequences of having certain rules and what kind of society that would result in. A thought experiment. or even trial and error, sure. Well, thought experiments are not exactly based on trial and error. All I'm saying is that doing thought experiements is only one example of the kind of moral reasoning I am talking about. It could also involve concrete experiences. Gilberto: Sure but even apart from language, whatever you call them, certain kinds of actions will tend to have certain kinds of consequences. Mark: I am not sure what you mean by certain kinds of actions. However, off the top of my head, I can think of many situations in which that would not be the case. When I went to Zaire, now the Republic of the Congo, it was normative for customs officials to beg for money. (They did it to me.) What would happen if a customs official did the same in the U.S. or Germany? Gilberto: I'm not sure what you mean by that in that would not be the case. You are the one hung up on the names now. I wouldn't assume that begging for money in Zeire is the same as begging for money in Germany. And perhaps you could say that in Zaire customs officials occurs frequently and went on unpunished. I'm not sure if that makes it normative. Mark: I don't see how saying, I can think of many situations in which that would not be the case, is being hung up with names. You would need to explain that to me. Gilberto: What I'm saying is that you consider the consequences of each individual act in each particular situation. Just because two different acts have the same name (e.g. begging or killing or marrying a 9-year-old female) doesn't mean I would expect them to have the same consequences or would evaluate them the same way. And just because those acts have different consequences in different situations isn't a proof of moral relativism. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
See below.. Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:31:43 -0500, Iskandar Hai [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto (not dear Gilberto): If by moral relativism you mean the kind of mentality and attitude that anything goes and everything is OK, then Baha'is are definitely not moral relativists. In previous conversations I've had with them both Mark and Susan affirmed that they believed in moral relativism. So, again, you took my comments and earlier comments/postings of Mark and Susan out of context and made distortions. Well, that's not the first time you have done this. I bet it won't be the last time either. For instance, in the early days of Islam wine was not strictly and categorically forbidden under all circumstances. But even from the beginning it was recognized that wine was harmful and that there was something wrong with it. [2.219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. But there was a verse revealed earlier that says: don't come to prayer sessions when you are drunk. Quran 2:219 was revealed later; it was the second step and 2:219 was not (is not) a categorical prohibition of wine under all circumstances. I wouldn't consider the change in qiblah a moral issue. I would. So, what's your hang up with the things in the Quran and Bible about Abraham? Regards, Iskandar __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:14:42 -0500, Iskandar Hai [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: See below.. Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:31:43 -0500, Iskandar Hai [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto (not dear Gilberto): If by moral relativism you mean the kind of mentality and attitude that anything goes and everything is OK, then Baha'is are definitely not moral relativists. Gilberto: In previous conversations I've had with them both Mark and Susan affirmed that they believed in moral relativism. Iskandar: So, again, you took my comments and earlier comments/postings of Mark and Susan out of context and made distortions. Well, that's not the first time you have done this. I bet it won't be the last time either. Gilberto: Please don't make unfounded accusations. I didn't distort anything. That's how they both chose to categorize their positions. I wasn't putting words in their mouths. And they are both grown-ups and are certainly capable of speaking for themselves. Iskandar For instance, in the early days of Islam wine was not strictly and categorically forbidden under all circumstances. Gilberto: But even from the beginning it was recognized that wine was harmful and that there was something wrong with it. [2.219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. Iskandar: But there was a verse revealed earlier that says: don't come to prayer sessions when you are drunk. Quran 2:219 was revealed later; it was the second step and 2:219 was not (is not) a categorical prohibition of wine under all circumstances. Gilberto: I don't know if there are any sources which give the order you are talking about. Some of the pages I've looked at say that 2:219 was the first of the three verses dealing with intoxicants and the one you are talking about was second. In any case, the chemical formula for alcohol didn't change when the Quran came down, so its always had certain effects. I think that the fact that alcohol is problematic is a constant. Gilberto: I wouldn't consider the change in qiblah a moral issue. I would. What does the Quran say? [2.177] It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for (the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of conflicts-- these are they who are {rue (to themselves) and these are they who guard (against evil). Gilberto: So how are you defining morality? Iskandar: So, what's your hang up with the things in the Quran and Bible about Abraham? Gilberto: It's not a hang-up. I'm perfectly happy to let the matter drop. I just wouldn't want to casually suggest that prophets might lie or commit idolatry. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:43:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/28/05 8:06:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto (not dear Gilberto): If by moral relativism you mean the kind of mentality and attitude that anything goes and everything is OK, then Baha'is are definitely not moral relativists. In previous conversations I've had with them both Mark and Susan affirmed that they believed in moral relativism. Susan: That's because the definition above is not our understanding of moral relativism. I've never accused you of holding that position. That was how Iskander chose to interpret moral relativism. Susan: We understand that morality 'relates' to concrete circumstances, it isn't just an absolute ideal up in the sky somewhere. Iskandar: For instance, in the early days of Islam wine was not strictly and categorically forbidden under all circumstances. Gilberto: But even from the beginning it was recognized that wine was harmful and that there was something wrong with it. Susan: Yes, by the time the Qur'an was composed this was true,but in antiquity iwine was quite necessary. Putting a little wine into your water was one of the few ways people had of disinfecting it. And it is recognized in Islamic law that if it is medically necessary and there are no reasonable alternatives one can consume alcohol. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/28/2005 12:10:52 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto:It's not a hang-up. I'm perfectly happy to let the matter drop. I justwouldn't want to casually suggest that prophets might lie or commitidolatry. I do not think a Prophet ever lied. I believe they chose when not to speak, but no lies. I do not think a Prophet is capable of idolatry, They operate on a plane of nearness to Godmuch more exalted than mine. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Susan, At 10:43 AM 1/28/2005, you wrote: That's because the definition above is not our understanding of moral relativism. We understand that morality 'relates' to concrete circumstances, it isn't just an absolute ideal up in the sky somewhere. Yes. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:17:36 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Susan, At 10:43 AM 1/28/2005, you wrote: That's because the definition above is not our understanding of moral relativism. We understand that morality 'relates' to concrete circumstances, it isn't just an absolute ideal up in the sky somewhere. Yes. I'm not sure I would identify with the idea of an absolute ideal up in the sky somewhere. From my perspective, Islam is a very pragmatic realistic religion. Alot of emphasis is put on the fact that the Quran was revealed in stages and lived example of the prophet. On top of that, many of the commandments are explicitly given exceptions due to duress or other circumstances. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
G:Alot of emphasis is put on the fact that the Quran was revealed in stages Know of a certainty that in every Dispensation the light of Divine Revelation hath been vouchsafed unto men in direct proportion to their spiritual capacity... if the Sun of Truth were suddenly to reveal, at the earliest stages of its manifestation, the full measure of the potencies which the providence of the Almighty hath bestowed upon it, the earth of human understanding would waste away and be consumed; for men's hearts would neither sustain the intensity of its revelation, nor be able to mirror forth the radiance of its light. Dismayed and overpowered, they would cease to exist. -Baha'u'llah Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto, At 10:29 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote: Could you give examples of each to explain how they are different? Justice is a virtue. It is defined (structurized) by Baha'u'llah, in one sense, as upheld by reward and punishment: O people of God! That which traineth the world is Justice, for it is upheld by two pillars, reward and punishment. These two pillars are the sources of life to the world. Inasmuch as for each day there is a new problem and for every problem an expedient solution, such affairs should be referred to the Ministers of the House of Justice that they may act according to the needs and requirements of the time. -- Baha'u'llah, Bisharat, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p.27 Situations may arise in the moral contexts of different societies which require specific solutions; and the virtue of justice needs to be related to each socially constructed moral code. Social norms and values in the U.S. have historically been structurized around particular species of racism, sexism, and classism. Therefore, the virtue of justice would be tailored or applied differently to meet the requirements, and to solve the problems, of U.S. society than, I don't know, maybe of Peruvian society. I think one should be sensitive to the customs of the people around you. That's just adab. If belching in public and slurping your soup loudly is acceptable in a certain environment, go for it. If it isn't, you should refrain. But this isn't a moral issue. But it *is* a moral issue (a folkway), as morality is generally defined in sociology. That is why I am making a distinction between morality (values and norms) and virtues (spiritual qualities taught by particular Prophets). I don't think I have a aone-size-fits-all approach to behavior. I think there are different levels. I definitely agree that there is an aspect of human behavior and codes of acceptibility which fluctuates from time to time. But I would think that there is some core which has to do with basic moral principles and which has a divine origin. If there is such a core, I would leave it up to God. I assume that God can change any possible core as He wills. From my perspective, I just look to what Baha'u'llah reveals. So for example, the ultimate principle could be something like concern for the sanctity of human life and safety. Concern for the sanctity of life is just a name or signifier. One would need to look to the meaning behind that name, as taught by a given Prophet, and attempt to determine the meaning behind it. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Hi, Gilberto, At 11:24 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote: So would it be fair to say that the sinlessness is a non-falsifiable statement? You aren't saying that they conform to some prior moral principles, but that by definition, beecause they are the Manifestation they could do no wrong? Yes, IMO, protection ('ismat) from sin is not ultimately falsifiable. One would need to be in an equal or superior position to the Prophet in order to falsify it. On the other hand, I *could* decide that, based on my own will or conscience, a particular Prophet does not conform to sinlessness (as I understand it). However, I don't think that is a very good idea. ;-) Just as earlier when we first started talking, you wouldn't exclude Crowley from being a Manifestation just on moral grounds. I don't recall having used the term moral grounds, or anything like it, in my messages. You would need to show me what you have in mind. I said that, as a sociologist of religion and an individual, I would accept that Crowley (or anyone else) is whom he (or she) claims to be in the context of a particular paradigm. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Dear Firouz, I think this is a big challenge Baha'u'llah is inviting people to produce a verse like what He is revealing. The verse in the Tablet of Ahmad doesn't appear to me to be an invitation to produce man-made verses. He is stating that it's impossible for men to come up with such verses, even if they poll all their smarts together, which could rival His verses. That is, His verses will always be superior to whatever men produced. It's the same idea as the staff of Moses. The serpent it produced was superior to all the others and swallowed them all. Regards, Ahang. __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:13:23 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/26/2005 7:25:35 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I DID answer her question in the most reasonable way I know how. If you don't like that answer I'm not sure how to help you. Dear Gilberto, If I understand your answer you are basically saying that having sex with a child of nine or ten is more of a legal than a moral issue. Is that right? No. That is not what I'm saying. The underlying moral issue is that people shouldn't harm and exploit one another. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
And further, it is an allegorical indication that man can never reach the station of God. | | I think this is a big challenge Baha'u'llah is inviting people to | produce a verse like what He is revealing. | |The verse in the Tablet of Ahmad doesn't appear to me to be an |invitation to produce man-made verses. He is stating that |it's impossible for men to come up with such verses, even if |they poll all their smarts together, which could rival His |verses. That is, His verses will always be superior to |whatever men produced. | |It's the same idea as the staff of Moses. The serpent it |produced was superior to all the others and swallowed them all. | __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto, At 06:16 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote: Ok, then part of the difficulty is that we are using words differently. Yes. Whether or not one belches in public is not a moral question. As I said, I would call etiquette and all low-level social norms folkways. Norms and values, as I define them, are categories of morality. I would definitely want to distinguish between morality (which could presumably be derrived from some basic moral/ethical principles) and mere politeness or ettiquette. I am not sure what you mean by basic moral principles. Basic to whom? All moral principles and virtues, as I define them, are relative. Morals are relative to human groups; and virtues are relative to God. I would think that this core has some kind of logic to it. It's not just inscrutable and mysterious without rhyme or reason. IMO, logic cannot be a foundationism. What is logical in the context of one paradigm may be illogical in the context of another. But don't you think everything is just a name? No, I think that you and I exist. ;-) However, people is a name. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/27/2005 1:57:20 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I remember long long time back when I was living in Dubaiwe had a deepening class about Tablet of Ahmad, our Egyptian teacher explained it to us this way. Well, now that I compare it with the parallel verse in the Qur'anthe resemblance is certainly striking! warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Nature of Morality Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:36:46 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 06:16 AM 1/27/2005, you wrote: Ok, then part of the difficulty is that we are using words differently. Yes. Whether or not one belches in public is not a moral question. As I said, I would call etiquette and all low-level social norms folkways. Norms and values, as I define them, are categories of morality. Gliberto: But what makes one set of laws high-level and another low-level? I'm not sure how you are drawing the line. I have the impression that in your perspective there is not a clear fundamental difference between ettiquette and morality because it is all relative. Gilberto: I would definitely want to distinguish between morality (which could presumably be derrived from some basic moral/ethical principles) and mere politeness or ettiquette. I would think that this core [of moral values] has some kind of logic to it. It's not just inscrutable and mysterious without rhyme or reason. Mark: IMO, logic cannot be a foundationism. What is logical in the context of one paradigm may be illogical in the context of another. Gilberto: I'm speaking imprecisely. I don't think I mean that kind of logic. I mean a different kind of reasoning process. Gilberto: Think about it this way. Even across various religions, different groups of human beings tend to converge on similar sets of moral rules. Golden rule. Lying is bad. Murdering is bad. Stealing is bad. etc. To me that suggests that in spite of the differences, there is some kind of objective notion of good. And even without the aid of a prophet, human beings are able to make certain moral judgements. Yes, there are differences, but there are also recurring similarities. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Nature of Morality Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto, At 06:14 PM 1/27/2005, you wrote: But what makes one set of laws high-level and another low-level? It is relative to the norms of that community. Mores are norms which, in a particular time and place, are punished (formally or informally) more severely than folkways. A more in one society may be a folkway in another; or a norm in one society may not be a norm at all in another society (such as wearing the hajab or some similar head covering). I'm not sure how you are drawing the line. I have the impression that in your perspective there is not a clear fundamental difference between ettiquette and morality because it is all relative. Like I said, as I define the term morality, it would include etiquette. Morality is relative to different societies and communities. Virtues are relative to God's Will. I wrote: IMO, logic cannot be a foundationism. What is logical in the context of one paradigm may be illogical in the context of another. You replied: I'm speaking imprecisely. I don't think I mean that kind of logic. I mean a different kind of reasoning process. What kind of reasoning process? Think about it this way. Even across various religions, different groups of human beings tend to converge on similar sets of moral rules. Golden rule. Lying is bad. Murdering is bad. Stealing is bad. etc. We may invent words or categories broad enough to encompass sets of activities across cultures. However, that doesn't tell us that those categories or names represent shared meaning. For instance, in the U.S., some people, like the Quakers, are often pacifists regarding the Iraq War (or any war), and some of them describe war as institutionalized murder. Others, like many on the Christian right, support the Iraq War. However, when asked, most of these people would probably express their opposition toward murder. The same would apply to issues like abortion (whether it constitutes murder). In other words, murder does not signify precisely the same construction in the minds of these different sets of people. A civilian convicted of involuntary manslaughter might spend time in prison. However, a soldier, marine, sailor, or airman who kills someone due to friendly fire will not likely even be prosecuted (unless she or he was disobeying orders). There are all sorts of games we can play with words to justify actions which, in other situations, could get a person into deep trouble. To me that suggests that in spite of the differences, there is some kind of objective notion of good. I think it is more frequently the case that people will use words like good with the assumption, often incorrect, that others share the same understanding of it. And even without the aid of a prophet, human beings are able to make certain moral judgements. The influence of the teachings of various Prophets often extends well beyond their followers. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Nature of Morality Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:53:07 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, You replied: I'm speaking imprecisely. I don't think I mean that kind of logic. I mean a different kind of reasoning process. Mark: What kind of reasoning process? Gilberto: One example would be through some kind of deliberative process where we think about the consequences of having certain rules and what kind of society that would result in. It's hard for me to articulate but one model would be the traffic laws. The goal is to have a society where people can travel safely on the roads. You want to minimaize harm to other human beings. so the basic value would be something like safety or the sanctity of human life. And so as a result, speed limits are enforced, we drive on one side of the road and not the other, etc. Gilberto: Think about it this way. Even across various religions, different groups of human beings tend to converge on similar sets of moral rules. Golden rule. Lying is bad. Murdering is bad. Stealing is bad. etc. Mark: We may invent words or categories broad enough to encompass sets of activities across cultures. However, that doesn't tell us that those categories or names represent shared meaning. Gilberto: Sure but even apart from language, whatever you call them, certain kinds of actions will tend to have certain kinds of consequences. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Dear Susan, I came to this conclusion after reading several online accounts of British activity in the middle east subsequent to WW1. I read that Lawrence of Arabia was deeply involved in the Arab revolt against the Ottoman hegemony instigated by Sharif Hussein bin Ali . Sharif Hussein had been promised a independent Arab state/kingdom by the British in return for instigating the revolt as indicated by the Hussein-MacMahon correspondence. However, the Sykes-Picot Agreement, divided the area into zones of permanent colonial influence. I've also read that Ibn Sa'ud had access to Wahhabi shock troops and since Sharif Hussein lacked the kind of military support the British thought was necessary to manage the peninsula effectively, British support was withdrawn from Hashimite rule in Arabia. Among my sources are http://www.wahhabism-info.com/Essay/toc.htm , The Two Faces of Islam by Stephan Schwartz. and A History of the Arab Peoples by Albert Hourami. I know that things were far more complicated than my simple assessment and would appreciate any insights into this matter from yourself. or any other. I did take a course in Middle Eastern History a long time ago and have been fascinated by the rise and collapse of Islamic Civilization for many years. Sincerely, Elainna Dear Elainna, Where does your information that the British favoured Ibn Sa'ud over the Hashimites come from? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu The Doors are open at Elainna's New Place http://elainna.org The Wild Side http://elainnas-wild-side.net
Re: Nature of Morality Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto, I wrote: What kind of reasoning process? You replied: One example would be through some kind of deliberative process where we think about the consequences of having certain rules and what kind of society that would result in. A thought experiment. Sure but even apart from language, whatever you call them, certain kinds of actions will tend to have certain kinds of consequences. I am not sure what you mean by certain kinds of actions. However, off the top of my head, I can think of many situations in which that would not be the case. When I went to Zaire, now the Republic of the Congo, it was normative for customs officials to beg for money. (They did it to me.) What would happen if a customs official did the same in the U.S. or Germany? Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Hi Iskandar, I think you are misunderstanding Gilberto and his intentions. I do not think he is saying that Baha'is don't take morality seriously, so there is no need for an apology. Gilberto is stating the Islamic stance on the issue, which is different from the Baha'i view. I am positive he is aware that Baha'is take morality seriously. Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:57:22 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Iskandar, I think you are misunderstanding Gilberto and his intentions. I do not think he is saying that Baha'is don't take morality seriously, so there is no need for an apology. Gilberto is stating the Islamic stance on the issue, which is different from the Baha'i view. I am positive he is aware that Baha'is take morality seriously. Thanks, I'm definitely not trying to say Bahais are less moral in their behavior than anyone else. I'm just trying to express disagreement with moral relativism. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:49:29 -0500 (EST), Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . A girl of 8, 9, or 10 years of age who has had her menses is still a girl, not a woman. From around 13 to about 18-19 years of age, she is called a teenager. Past nineteen, she can be called a woman (or young woman). Gilberto: That's arbitrary. The concept of teenager or more precisely adolescent is a relatively new one in human history. Probably because in technical societies people need alot more training and education before they are reasonably able to make a living and provide for a family. In the past, people could pick up a trade from their family and could make a living a lot earlier. Saying that a 9-year old post-pubescent female is a young woman is so Orwellian newspeak. Gilberto: Puberty is at least a very natural dividing line. Virtually any other one is going to be arbitrary. To just say a girl becomes a woman at 15 even though no particular physical, mental or spiritual change happens at 15 is random. Its understandable that that's where Bahais draw the line and if you want to do that, I'm not objecting. But you have no place to get all offended if other people draw the line somewhere else. Yes, my understanding is that there are certain eternal fundamental verities and basic truths that are found in all Dispensations and moral/ethical orders. For instance, I'd guess that in all cultures, religions, civilizations, etc. ideas/ideals such as kindness, justice, compassion, chastity, decency, honesty, modesty, rectitude of conduct, courage, truthfullness, trustworthiness, etc., etc. are commended and commanded. Gilberto: Yes, we agree to that at least. The other thing is that in real life, sometimes the difficult and important decisions are not between a vice or a virtue but between competing virtues. Yes, I see that. How much justice is mercy and how much justice is unmerciful, for example. Yes, truthfullness is good. But where is the line between truthfulness and lying? Does taqiyyih constitute lying? Sure. I think alot of those sorts of questions depend more on the exact specifics of a given situation. For me, that's the best way to think of them rather than just depending on the date or the dispensation. And the religions give us rules and guidelines and help in making those decisions. The Prophet Abraham said Sarah was His sister at one point. At some point He said He would worship stars, then later He said He would worship the moon, later He said He would worship the sun. Finally, He said He would worship God the Creator of heaven and earth. Was He lying at some point? I think I see the point but I would be really hesitant about using this as an example because of what you possibly seem to be suggesting about Abraham's behavior and character. You haven't answered Susan's question yet, dear Gilberto. I don't think you should be calling me dear. And yes, I already answered Susan's question and the answer appears below. Maybe you don't like my answer. Maybe you don't understand my answer. But I certainly have given one. Peace Gilberto Good wishes, Iskandar On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:52:59 -0500 (EST), Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't see your answer to Susan's question. You basically made a speech against exploitation, etc. I DID answer her question in the most reasonable way I know how. If you don't like that answer I'm not sure how to help you. Already from the beginning of this whole discussion I had said I'd prefer to talk about these issues with a different kind of example because the topic tends to make people emotional and sensitive. I guess I should have known better. The way I see it there is a basic problem which Jews, Christians, Muslims and Bahais living in modern times have. How do we come to terms with the fact that individuals who are prophets and messengers or otherwise examplary, may have made comments or commited actions which might have the appearance or suggestion of immorality when viewed from modern secular lenses. In my experience, the answer I've gotten most often from Bahais seems to suggest that basic ethical principles and values change over time like hemlines. Personally I find that answer REALLY unsatisfactory beceause it doesn't seem to take morality seriously. I would prefer to think that basic moral principles should have more staying power. If that means arguing that certain actions done in the past make sense in terms of more fundamental moral principles, so be it. Basically, dear Gilberto, you can't call a 9-year old female (who has had her menses) a woman or young woman in front of a judge or a court of law in most any place nowadays (well, maybe with the exception of Saudi Arabia, etc.) Nevertheless, in many human cultures that is when adulthood begins. And then I asked
Re: Nature of Morality Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:41:05 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, I wrote: What kind of reasoning process? You replied: One example would be through some kind of deliberative process where we think about the consequences of having certain rules and what kind of society that would result in. A thought experiment. or even trial and error, sure. Gilberto: Sure but even apart from language, whatever you call them, certain kinds of actions will tend to have certain kinds of consequences. Mark: I am not sure what you mean by certain kinds of actions. However, off the top of my head, I can think of many situations in which that would not be the case. When I went to Zaire, now the Republic of the Congo, it was normative for customs officials to beg for money. (They did it to me.) What would happen if a customs official did the same in the U.S. or Germany? Gilberto: I'm not sure what you mean by that in that would not be the case. You are the one hung up on the names now. I wouldn't assume that begging for money in Zeire is the same as begging for money in Germany. And perhaps you could say that in Zaire customs officials occurs frequently and went on unpunished. I'm not sure if that makes it normative. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:03:37 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Islam, that's when a person becomes an adult. What other definition of woman are you using? Dear Gilberto, So do you think it would be okay today if a mature man married and had intercourse with a ten year old girl so long as she had had her menses? I don't think that's the only consideration in a relationship. People aren't just biological organs with stopwatches attached to them. I think a deeper criteria is that there be a loving non-exploitative commited relationship between the people who are married. There are some young people are precocious and can handle alot of things. There are some older people who are immature and can't. Ultimately age is just a number. But at the same time I certainly am in favor of efforts to protect children from exploitation. And I think a totally reasonable way to protect children in 2005 is to pass statutory rape laws, with certain age cut-offs even though the exact numbers might be somewhat arbitrary. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:26:59 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/26/2005 2:31:41 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Which social laws? I don't think the Bible or the Quran given minimum ages for marriage. Like I said elsewhere its not a question of absolute morality. The ordinary laws passed by current legislative bodies are certainly subject to change and aren't meant to last forever. Exactly. And, of course, neither are the religious social laws which are, after all the precursors of civil law in the first place. This is going in circles. I would want to make a distinction between the laws which people make up and the ones which God gives. I understand that Bahais disagree. This is nothing new. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/26/2005 4:39:10 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is going in circles. I would want to make a distinction betweenthe laws which people make up and the ones which God gives. Iunderstand that Bahais disagree. This is nothing new. People make laws modeled upon the ethical and religious tradition of their nation. It is indeed, nothing new. Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/26/2005 7:25:27 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't think you should talk to me like that. This is part of why Iwould rather use a more neutral example. I have absolutely no interestin marrying a nine-year old girl and as I said in my answer, I have noobjections to the statutory rape laws and I'm not interested inrepealing them. No one thinks you are, we are discussing the social laws of marriage and coming of age. If you like, forget the example of Ashia and Muhammed. The issue of measuring adulthood by menses or nocturnal emission is a method well adapted to small communities. When you speak of nations of millions, or tens of millions or hundreds of millions, that standard is no longer useful. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
That is true. However The house of Sa'ud entered into an alliance with the Wahhabis and subsequent to attaining control of Arabia, they exported Wahhabism through the funding of religious schools throughout the middle East. One also might note British encouragement of the sect as well as by favouring Ibn Sa'ud over the Sharif of Mecca. While this is pure speculation, it is possible if Britain had defended the Hashimites in the holy Places the Arabian Peninsula would probably have developed modern political institutions. As it is Wahhabism is the dominant religious influence in Saudi Arabia and is still spreading the fundamentalist teachings of Abdul-Wahab. Warm Wishes, Elainna And Abdul-Wahab's views were rejected and criticized by the more tolerant traditional mainstream. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu The Doors are open at Elainna's New Place http://elainna.org The Wild Side http://elainnas-wild-side.net __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
- Marriages then were rarely a matter of simple choice no matter what age you were, but by all accounts it was a happy marriage. Dear Susan, I realise that. I said this because she might not at all have been unwilling to marry Muhammad, maybe have even wished for it. It is not usual that a person at 9 or 10 have sound judgements on matters like choosing a marriage partner, but it is not unheard of. Some people, very few, have an insight and understanding far beyond their years. I am not saying that Aisha had, but rather I wanted to put that possibility forward. I do not think really that she had a big say in the matter, though it is not unthinkable that she was consulted. After all, when the Light of a Manifestation appears, some people are so touched by it that old customs and habits are completely forgotten, so it may be possible that contrary to tradition and custom, in this case Aisha was consulted and that she was very insightful and advanced for her years and knew exactly what she was doing. I do not think it very likely, but it is a possibility. much love, janine __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto, At 08:01 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote: The original point was how do you evaluate prophets and think about sinlessness. I would say that there is a certain minimal core morality which is more fundamental and you could in principle use that the judge prophets. Mark seemed to say it was reversed and that within their dispensation prophets could do anything and almost by definition it would be correct. To my understanding, the sinlessness of the Prophets is called the Most Great Infallibility (ismat-i-kubraa). Whatever virtues the Prophets reveal to humanity constitute the divine standard of sinlessness. There is no sinlessness (or virtue) apart from God's manifested Will. For Baha'is, in my view, that sinlessness has been embodied in a human being, `Abdu'l-Baha. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:20:03 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, There is, IMO, a difference between virtues, which are divine structurizations, and morals (norms and values), which are human structurizations. Through the Will of God (virtues) or through the wills of humans in groups (morals), both can change over time and vary geographically or situationally. Could you give examples of each to explain how they are different? The fact that virtues may be relative to God's Will does not indicate a failure to take them seriously. Likewise, people must be sensitive to the norms and values in different cultures and, for Baha'is, to find ways of contextualizing the virtues revealed in the Baha'i Sacred Texts into the moral codes (values and norms) of the societies in which they live. Gilberto: I think one should be sensitive to the customs of the people around you. That's just adab. If belching in public and slurping your soup loudly is acceptable in a certain environment, go for it. If it isn't, you should refrain. But this isn't a moral issue. This relativist approach respects both the prerogatives of God and the differences between societies and cultures. On the other hand, a timeless, one- size-fits-all approach to human behavior turns virtues and morals into ritualized rrelevances. I don't think I have a aone-size-fits-all approach to behavior. I think there are different levels. I definitely agree that there is an aspect of human behavior and codes of acceptibility which fluctuates from time to time. But I would think that there is some core which has to do with basic moral principles and which has a divine origin. So for example, the ultimate principle could be something like concern for the sanctity of human life and safety. And in some societies that gets implemented by having everyone drive on the right side of the road. In other societies it gets implemented by having everyone drive on the left side. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:25:25 -0800, Elaine Crowell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is true. However The house of Sa'ud entered into an alliance with the Wahhabis and subsequent to attaining control of Arabia, they exported Wahhabism through the funding of religious schools throughout the middle East. One also might note British encouragement of the sect as well as by favouring Ibn Sa'ud over the Sharif of Mecca. While this is pure speculation, it is possible if Britain had defended the Hashimites in the holy Places the Arabian Peninsula would probably have developed modern political institutions. As it is Wahhabism is the dominant religious influence in Saudi Arabia and is still spreading the fundamentalist teachings of Abdul-Wahab. Yes. And Muslims know that. And many see it as a problem and do what they can to promote more traditional understandings. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:29:01 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark seemed to say it was reversed and that within their dispensation prophets could do anything and almost by definition it would be correct. -- Hi Gilberto, I think the idea is based on the following verses of Baha'u'llah, among others. This idea - that one can come up with a set of morals or a standard to weight or measure the Prophets - appears to be at odd with these verses. Please share with us how you read these verses.: The Kitab-i-Aqdas verse 99- Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring Balance established amongst men. In this most perfect Balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it. It seems like you are reading it correctly. I just don't think I would agree with it. The Quran actually invites people to examine itself for contradictions. Dares people to try to come up with verses like it. In other places the Quran also calls itself the Criterion but I don't know of a place where it declares itself immune from criticism. This is a slight digression but there is a book by a convert to Islam named Jeffery Lang named Even Angels Ask its an allusion to the Quranic story of the creation of Adam when God announced he was going to make human beings. [2.30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know. And Lang points out that from the Islamic perspective angels always do what they are told and are sinless. And the conclusion is that even questioning God's wisdom the way they do here is therefore not a sin in Islam. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:38:28 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 08:01 PM 1/26/2005, you wrote: The original point was how do you evaluate prophets and think about sinlessness. I would say that there is a certain minimal core morality which is more fundamental and you could in principle use that the judge prophets. Mark seemed to say it was reversed and that within their dispensation prophets could do anything and almost by definition it would be correct. To my understanding, the sinlessness of the Prophets is called the Most Great Infallibility (ismat-i-kubraa). Whatever virtues the Prophets reveal to humanity constitute the divine standard of sinlessness. There is no sinlessness (or virtue) apart from God's manifested Will. For Baha'is, in my view, that sinlessness has been embodied in a human being, `Abdu'l-Baha. So would it be fair to say that the sinlessness is a non-falsifiable statement? You aren't saying that they conform to some prior moral principles, but that by definition, beecause they are the Manifestation they could do no wrong? Just as earlier when we first started talking, you wouldn't exclude Crowley from being a Manifestation just on moral grounds. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto addressing Mark: It seems like you are reading it correctly. I just don't think I would agree with it. The Quran actually invites people to examine itself for contradictions. Dares people to try to come up with verses like it. In other places the Quran also calls itself the Criterion but I don't know of a place where it declares itself immune from criticism. Firouz: Baha'u'llah also challenges people to come up a verse like what Baha'u'llah has revealed and goes further and allows them to assist each other: O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof hath ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones. Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another. I think this is a big challenge Baha'u'llah is inviting people to produce a verse like what He is revealing. Regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:30:04 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto addressing Mark: It seems like you are reading it correctly. I just don't think I would agree with it. The Quran actually invites people to examine itself for contradictions. Dares people to try to come up with verses like it. In other places the Quran also calls itself the Criterion but I don't know of a place where it declares itself immune from criticism. Firouz: Baha'u'llah also challenges people to come up a verse like what Baha'u'llah has revealed and goes further and allows them to assist each other: Yeah. As I was wriiting I started to think about that and thought I should maybe rephrase the above since the Bahai writings basically repeat the challenge of the Quran. [2.23] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. [11.13] Or, do they say: He has forged it. Say: Then bring ten forged chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. [52.33] Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe. [52.34] Then let them bring an announcement like it if they are truthful. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/26/2005 11:30:40 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Baha'u'llah also challenges people to come up a verse like what Baha'u'llah has revealed and goes further and allows them to assist each other:" O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof hath ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another." Dear Firouz, I never read that passage that way. I thought He was asking them to come up with proof they believed in God, not come up with better verses. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/26/2005 8:21:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One also might note British encouragement of the sect as well as by favouring Ibn Sa'ud over the Sharif of Mecca. Dear Elainna, Where does your information that the British favoured Ibn Sa'ud over the Hashimites come from? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Dear Firouz, I never read that passage that way. I thought He was asking them to come up with proof they believed in God, not come up with better verses. warmest, Susan Dear Susan, I remember long long time back when I was living in Dubaiwe had a deepening class about Tablet of Ahmad, our Egyptian teacher explained it to us this way. Actually he emphasized that in Tablet of Ahmad Baha'u'llah goes one step further than Quran and allows people to assist one another to produce a verse like His. To me it makes lots of sense and the followingfrom Epistle to the Son of the Wolf is also saying something similar. `O ye peoples of the earth! Turn yourselves towards Him Who hath turned towards you. He, verily, is the Face of God amongst you, and His Testimony and His Guide unto you. He hath come to you with signs which none can produce.' The voice of the Burning Bush is raised in the midmost heart of the world, and the Holy Spirit calleth aloud among the nations: `Lo, the Desired One is come with manifest dominion!' regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Hi, Susan, At 09:48 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote: In the case of Mormonism there is strong evidence to suggest that on the global scale they are experiencing the same stagnation as we are: http://www.cumorah.com/report.htmlhttp://www.cumorah.com/report.html Yes, I was referring to American statistics. For instance, the following comes from the report you cited: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is growing relatively faster than many large Christian faiths, at least in the United States. The 1990-2000 Glenmary study reports that the LDS Church ranks twenty-third among the 149 participating denominations in overall U.S. growth rate but first among denominations with over one million adherents. The annual U.S. LDS growth rate of 1.9% edges out the annual world population growth rate by 0.2-0.4%. The Glenmary study cautions that the main findings are based solely upon the raw number of adherents 'claimed by religious bodies,' and activity and retention rates for Latter-day Saints were not examined. That is a limitation in the methodology. However, other studies I have seen (especially NES data) also indicate that U.S. LDS growth rates are still pretty strong. You will also note they have some of the same debates regarding membership statistics as we do. Personally, I doubt that Mormonism would have similar global appeal as in the U.S. It is, in many ways, the ultimate religion of American romanticism. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Mark:Personally, I doubt that Mormonism would have similar global appeal as in the U.S. It is, in many ways, the ultimate religion of American romanticism. JS: And I think for this reason it is surprising that Islam and the Baha'i Faith have grown so fast in the US (Islam recently and Baha'i over the last 50 years). Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Scott, At 08:40 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote: Mark seems to have come into the faith the same way I did, through the written words of Baha`u'llah. When truth sings in your heart, you are carried away. Baha`u'llah's words reveal His character. Abdu'l Baha's words reveal Baha`u'llah's character. That is the necessary outcome when one finds the truth spoken by an individual. Actually, no. I did not read any of Baha'u'llah's Writings before I declared. I had only read portions of Jessica Gaver's introductory book (which I found at Macy's Dept. Store). When I told the late Counsellor, Hedi Ahmadiyya, that story, he said it was the first good thing he ever heard coming out of Jessica's book! I later met Jessica (just once) at the old NYC Baha'i Center and thanked her for her book. She was a not so active member of that community. Soon after, she left the Baha'i Faith and became a pentecostal. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Appeal of Islam (was: punishment of crimes - was arson)
And I think for this reason it is surprising that Islam and the Baha'i Faith have grown so fast in the US (Islam recently and Baha'i over the last 50 years). Not to me. Most of the internal growth (i.e., not due to immigration) in the States has been among people of color. This paragraph pretty well sums up much of the thinking I have read on the subject: African-American Muslims I spoke with consistently explained Islams appeal in terms of four benefits: a new sense of personal empowerment; a rigorous call to discipline; an emphasis on family structure and values; and a clear standard of moral behavior. But negative comments about Christianity and its associations with slavery and discrimination regularly accompany their expressions of gratitude to Islam Read between the lines and its hard not to conclude that for many African-Americans an added appeal of Islam is that its not Christianity. http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2877 Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Hi, Susan, At 08:11 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote: I didn't see any big problem with that book aside from the fact it had never gone through review. Gaver imported a lot of popular Baha'isms, urban legends, or kitab-i-hearsays, into the book. I would need to go back and find them. However, overall, I liked the spirit of the book. It convinced me to become a Baha'i - even without reading most of it. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:29:38 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 09:25 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote: I would probably prefer to discuss this point with an issue that wasn't so emotionally charged because because it can be sensitive for alot of folks. But I would say, no. I think that tastes and expectations can change over the years, norms of behavior. But that doesn't make them moral issues, no. If an adult marrying a child in 21st c. Kansas (or NYC) is not a moral issue, then what *is* a moral issue? I'm not certain how to articulate it but I think that the rules of morality would be more or less deducible from certain basic principles or axioms through some kind of moral reasoning process. So for example, actually harming and abusing a child (or anyone else) is definitely a moral issue. But if its not a case of abused and if you are just talking about people getting married at ages atypical for 21st century Kansas, I don't think that's a moral question. . However, perhaps you mean something different by morality than myself. I am using the term with its usual sociological definition (esp. from Emile Durkheim). In that context, morality is a neutral, culturally relative concept which understands morals as norms and values. Gilberto: So what is the difference between ettiquette and morality? Gilberto: I think there is a difference between saying something is immoral and saying that something is popularly perceived to be wrong or disgusting. Mark: I suppose you regard morality as an unchangeable absolute. Gilberto: Something like that. I would want to be sensitive to the specific nature of a situation and realize that there are extremes and exceptions. I ithink I'm kind of a pragmatist. And I don't necessarily think that all the morally relevant factors will be adequately captured by a verbal formulation (like the 10 commandments of Moses or the 7 Noachide commandments) and in any given situation there might be more than one moral choice. But I don't consider myself a moral relativist. To me, morality is always relative, whether to a particular Revelation or culture. The first expresses God's standards, which change. The second involves human standards, which both change and vary from place to place. Maybe a decent example would be the kind of stuff people do on Fear Factor. It's basically a game show where part of the competition might include dares to eat some kind of disgusting substance. Even though most people are on a very visceral level disgusted by the act of eating bugs or horse intestine or whatever, it's not clear that its a moral question. Well, now I suppose I do not understand you at all. Are you saying that Muhammad's marriage to Khadija, while disgusting by contemporary standards, would not be immoral? Wow, that's the first time I've heard anyone call Muhammad's marriage to Khadija disgusting. Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher don't look THAT bad. And How Stella got her Groove Back was more popular than contraversial. You probably meant Aishah. Here is the best article piece I've seen discussing the issue: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html So, if someone unearthed persuasive evidence which proved that Bahaullah had been involved in certain kinds of unsavory and conventionally immoral behavior it wouldn't play a role in or affect whether you believed in him? I would hope not. Really? Why not? What if it turned out that the Bahai Writings actually came from someone like Charles Manson or Jeffery Dahmer ? And you thought the writings were pretty but they came from a serial killer/serial rapist. Could a person like that really be a Manifestation? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/25/2005 8:37:34 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gaver imported a lot of popular "Baha'isms," urban legends, or "kitab-i-hearsays," into the book. Dear Mark, I suppose at the time I read that book I took those things for granted. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/25/2005 8:33:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: However, some other things have been much greater concerns to me recently, especially Ruhi. Well, if it is any comfort, Baha'u'llah didn't do that. ;-} __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Appeal of Islam (was: punishment of crimes - was arson)
Dear Mark. What you said reminded me of a previous conversation I had on the relative appeal of groups like the Nation of Islam and the Bahai faith to African-Americans. So by comparison, Abdul-Baha wrote: But I wish to say one thing in order that the blacks may become grateful to the whites and the whites become loving toward the blacks. If you go to Africa and see the blacks of Africa, you will realize how much progress you have made. Praise be to God! You are like the whites; there are no great distinctions left. But the blacks of Africa are treated as servants. The first proclamation of emancipation for the blacks was made by the whites of America. How they fought and sacrificed until they freed the blacks! Then it spread to other places. The blacks of Africa were in complete bondage, but your emancipation led to their freedom also--that is, the European states emulated the Americans, and the emancipation proclamation became universal. It was for your sake that the whites of America made such an effort. Were it not for this effort, universal emancipation would not have been proclaimed. Therefore, you must be very grateful to the whites of America, and the whites must become very loving toward you so that you may progress in all human grades. The Promulgation of Universal Peace p45, also at PUP p45 My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:03:26 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark: Personally, I doubt that Mormonism would have similar global appeal as in the U.S. It is, in many ways, the ultimate religion of American romanticism. JS: And I think for this reason it is surprising that Islam and the Baha'i Faith have grown so fast in the US (Islam recently and Baha'i over the last 50 years). When historians speculate the various discoveries of America before Columbus at least one or two of them were by Muslims. Muslims were in American since slavery and an early wave of immagrants occured around the 1920s and 30s. And a large increase occured when the Nation of Islam became orthodox. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Susan, At 08:11 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote: Aisha, not Khadija. Yep. ;-) I think of circumstances where it might for me. For instance if Baha'u'llah had authorized anything similiar to the massacre of the Banu Qurayza I doubt if I could recognize Him as having the remedy we need for this day. It would be of concern to me, too. However, some other things have been much greater concerns to me recently, especially Ruhi. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
In a way. my as to date not completely formed thinking goes along the lines that God is Reality.That compared to God some things have no Reality at all. Yet they do have a reality, for example a cat has a certain reality of its own, and when I am hungry it is a reality of its own as well. But compared to God there is not much of a reality there. (that is the best I can do in explaining). More like all things emanate from God, the world of phenomena that is. But that there is much we humans do not yet know of Reality and are discovering of Reality. Hence we should not weigh the book with such standards and sciences as are current among us, cause these are not enough, not insightful enough. may wisdom and love shine on your path janine[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:21:38 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: that each new Manifestation, because of the taxonomies He uses defines anew what goodness is? Dear Janine, Isn't that what this passage implies? "O leaders of religion! Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring Balance established amongst men. In this most perfect Balance whatsoever the peoples and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it." warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto, At 08:42 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote: But if its not a case of abused and if you are just talking about people getting married at ages atypical for 21st century Kansas, I don't think that's a moral question. I think it would clearly be a moral issue to most Americans for an adult to marry a prepubescent child - even without immediately consummating the marriage. So what is the difference between ettiquette and morality? Using common sociological terminology, etiquette would fall under what William Graham Sumner called folkways (folk norms). In all contemporary Western societies, marrying a prepubescent child would be a more violation. Something like that. I would want to be sensitive to the specific nature of a situation and realize that there are extremes and exceptions. I ithink I'm kind of a pragmatist. So, if you think that morality is absolute, and that the Prophet Muhammad exemplified it, you believe it would be acceptable for an American to marry a prepubescent child??? But I don't consider myself a moral relativist. Based on what you wrote, I would not consider you one either. You appear to be a moral absolutist. The difference is that your moral standard is, um, different. You probably meant Aishah. Yes, I did. Here is the best article piece I've seen discussing the issue: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html However, Gilberto, this writer is making **my** point about cultural, or historical, relativism, which you appear to dismiss. For instance: It is no surprise that both of the above authors agree on the fact that the marriage of cAishah and Muhammad took place when the former had reached puberty and that this was normal at the time. Really? Why not? What if it turned out that the Bahai Writings actually came from someone like Charles Manson or Jeffery Dahmer ? I said, I hope not. That is the most I can determine. No one can really know for sure how she or he would react under such circumstances. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Susan, At 08:46 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote: Well, if it is any comfort, Baha'u'llah didn't do that. ;-} I suppose we can all ask Him about it in the next world. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Personally, I doubt that Mormonism would have similar global appeal as in the U.S. Exactly. We are doing much better in Africa and Asia where their figures are only about a half of million. It is, in many ways, the ultimate religion of American romanticism. Which is why I doubt it is realistic to think we will be able to compete with them here anytime soon. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto, At 10:09 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote: That she was pre-pubescent is an assumption on your part. There are indications otherwise. I know the issue is not decided. However, the author of the article you referenced before on the subject said that, presently, the evidence *did* support that she was 9 years old. To me, however, it doesn't matter either way, but I am a moral relativist. ;-) And according to the commentaries he at least waited till after puberty. I don't see how that matters. What would happen in most parts of the U.S. if a grown man wanted to marry an 11- or 12-year-old girl? How would the majority of people likely respond? So what is the difference between a folkway and a more? On a scale, a folkway is a relatively unimportant norm (like most etiquette), while a more is a more important norm (like the subject we are discussing would be in the U.S.). All norms, or rules of social conduct, are socially constructed (as are the social controls and punishments which may accompany their violation). It is certainly weird and atypical, but if I could be convinced that their intentions didn't involve any hint that they would exploit the child I wouldn't have a moral objection to them being betrothed. However, it was *not* weird and atypical in 7th-century Arabia. So Squires is obviously saying there is an absolute morality on the one hand and cultural norms on the other. And furthermore, he says that Christians who seem to find the young marriage of Aishah morally objectionable are confusing the latter for the former. If the writer is advocating moral absolutism, I would disagree with him, too. But what I don't understand is why that would even be your hope. Why wouldn't the character of the messenger be an issue? Because, in principle, I don't think that a Prophet is required to conform to human standards of conduct. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:11:52 -0800 (PST), louise mchenry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gilberto, thanks for your response. Food for thought and a challenge to make my understanding and thoughts more clear. Glad to oblige. My question was: how can religion by itself do this? [reform and change] Suppose that a Bahai country interprets the Bahai writings to say that an arsonist should be burned. So this country makes a law whereby the punishment of arson is burning, no matter what was set on fire, a car, an empty warehouse, a house full of people. In the Bahai faith, as soon as the UHJ becomes aware of a country where the code of law was influenced by the Bahai laws, I am sure the UHJ would say to this country they are implementing that law too strictly and too narrowly. gilberto: I wouldn't automatically assume that but that's ok. Janine: I assume that because Baha'u'llah says that it is also okay to change the sentence of burning an arsonist to life sentence. And the UHJ has said that there is a difference between a school full of children being set on fire or an empty warehouse. Gilberto: Ok. That makes more sense then if there actually is a specific statement on the application of this law from the UHJ. But still, this Bahai country would at some point burn at least one person alive I would think. And when it does, people might be outraged. L: A religion who has no authority centre cannot do this. A religion needs an administrative structure to be able to guide people back to the core. G: I think that isn't true. Religions with decentralized authority can still change in response to new situations. It might happen slowly or unevenly but that's actually ok with me. Besides, even in Islam there are still mid-level national and international organizations and associations that can mobilize large numbers of people. So some kinds of coordination can happen that way.. Janine: I can see that as a possibility. It is a good argument. Gilberto: But I would actually be very mistrustful of a centralized authority which claimed to be infallible L: I would be so as well, unless it was said by someone who I think is speaking with God's authority. Baha'u'llah is someone Who has that authority, for me, G: Yes, alot of these arguments really do just boil down to that point. If you believe the Bahai claims about Bahaullah then everything else follows. If you don't start at that point, it is hard to imagine being convinced based on argumentation. Gilberto: Another aspect to how a religion can be brought back to its core is through reformers. It is actually a prophecy of Muhammad, that in every century (Islamic) a reformer will arise who will revive the community's understanding of the religion. So powerful figures do rise up, get recongized, and reenergize the community. Janine: but how do you discern who is a reformer who has the goodwill and approval of Allah? From where I am standing, reformers in religions always lead to more divisions, more fractions be formed, more offficial schools of thought established which then led to schisms. Gilberto: In Christian history Luther and Calvin and the other reformers led to certain divisions and ultimately split Christendom in radical ways. In terms of Islam, Abdul Wahab claimed to try to reform Islam, and in certain respects probably wounded the unity of Islam. But at the same time, Islam still has a strong focus on unity and so Wahabis don't want to declare themselves a schism. They would just consider themselves a movement within sunni Islam. I think there are more movements and schools of thought then there are actual schisms. So for the most part, a reviver comes along and people either like that person or not. But at the end of the day they would still be willing to pray together at the same mosque. [Another example. The Black civil rights movement in the US reformed the US churches. In order for that process of change to occur, it didn't require Martin Luther King to become pope.] Janine: but how was it possible that the civil rights movement did get so much support, that it spoke to so many people, at that particular time? Was it not because peoples' awareness and understanding had grown? Gilberto: Sure. And that's a process which occured in a decentralized way, through multiple organizations. L: As I understand it, Martin Luther King was not the only one who advocated racial unity. Gilberto: Of course It was a mass effort.. L: Martin King had a following, yes. And in my view that made him a priest, just like Ghandi. G:I wouldn't call either of them priests. I suspect that if you have a definition of priest which is big enough to include them, it can't be narrow enough to exclude Bahais. Islam is a very fair religion. My problem is though that in many Islamic communities there is a lot of cultural burden put on the practice of Islam and that many Muslims
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Gilberto, At 10:54 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote: It's the individualists who throw off traditional scholarship who are the extremists. But isn't that what the 19th-century higher critics were doing - throwing off traditional scholarship? Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Thanks From: Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: punishment of crimes - was arson. Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:38:51 -0600 James, At 10:30 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote: What is the basis of this statement? Are there any current statistics available that show comparative numbers of Baha'is from year to year? Aside from having had discussions with Baha'is in many Western countries, here are some good sources. Some are better than others, and not all of them provide longitudinal data: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Baha'i http://www.religioustolerance.org/bahai4.htm http://users.whsmithnet.co.uk/ispalin/statistics/ Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Are there any current statistics available that show comparative numbers of Baha'is from year to year? Such statistics would be interesting. Dear James, On the global level, or within the US? US statistics exist and they indicate we definitely experienced a decline this year. Do you want me to find these and post them? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Janine I would be so as well, unless it was said by someone who I think is speaking with God's authority. Baha'u'llah is someone Who has that authority, for me,G: Yes, alot of these arguments really do just boil down to thatpoint. If you believe the Bahai claims about Bahaullah then everythingelse follows. If you don't start at that point, it is hard to imaginebeing convinced based on argumentation. Janine: smile. Exactly. it is all a matter of belief, in the end. I thank you again for your responses.I may return later to the rest of your mail to reply. I am learning and remembering a whole lot about Islam on this list, and I am very grateful for that. may wisdom and love light your path. janine van rooij dublin ireland Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Thanks Susan. From experience at the Baha'i National Center (and keeping up with those statistics during that time) their availability in the US is known. On the International level, they would be interesting. From: Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: RE: punishment of crimes - was arson. Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:02:03 -0600 Are there any current statistics available that show comparative numbers of Baha'is from year to year? Such statistics would be interesting. Dear James, On the global level, or within the US? US statistics exist and they indicate we definitely experienced a decline this year. Do you want me to find these and post them? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
I'm saying that when a 53-year old male marries a 20-30 year old female, he has married a young woman, and when he marries a female who is barely 18 he then has married a teenager. When a 53-year old male marries a female who has just barely tuned 9 lunar years, it is not accurate to say that he married a young woman, Gilberto. The thing is, dear Gilberto, that if a 50-year old male now decides to consummate a marriage with a ten-year old girl he cannot do that in 2005 in most any place now. He cannot argue that he has her consent and her parents' consent, that she is happy with it, that she is physically/emotionally mature, that she has had her menses, etc., etc. He just can't call it marriage. Since we are talking about the Prophet Muhammad PBUH, I'd prefer not to comment on the morality (or lack thereof) of this specific issue. Regards, Iskandar Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'd say a child of around 7 or 9 lunar years of age is a more accurate term than young woman when she marries a person 50 years older than her. She is what she is whether she is married or not. She was barely 18 when she became a widow, and could not marry again ever. So what are you ultimately trying to say? Peace Gilberto Regards, Iskandar __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
I do not take all of the comments here about the marriage between Muhammad and Aisha asevidencethat Muhammad was evil or had ill intentions. As our society changes, there is a need to renew the Revelation of God, which is, after all, written forUS inOUR language based onOUR society.As our society changes, God's RevelationTO USchanges, while God's Revelation is in essence always One. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Bab's wife (was: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson)
In a message dated 1/25/2005 5:56:38 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why, specifically, was it a violation of the Bab's honor? I can see how it was a violation of the wife's honor; it appears she was simply passed around like a piece of furniture, none of the men seemed interested in what she wanted. So, I see the dishonor to the woman. But what is the dishonor to the Bab? Dear Tim, I can see you don't think like a Middle Eastern male. ;-} warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
The sources indicate that the nikah didn't occur until after puberty. In Islam, that's when a person becomes an adult. What other definition of woman are you using? Peace Gilberto On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:59:53 -0500 (EST), Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm saying that when a 53-year old male marries a 20-30 year old female, he has married a young woman, and when he marries a female who is barely 18 he then has married a teenager. When a 53-year old male marries a female who has just barely tuned 9 lunar years, it is not accurate to say that he married a young woman, Gilberto. The thing is, dear Gilberto, that if a 50-year old male now decides to consummate a marriage with a ten-year old girl he cannot do that in 2005 in most any place now. He cannot argue that he has her consent and her parents' consent, that she is happy with it, that she is physically/emotionally mature, that she has had her menses, etc., etc. He just can't call it marriage. Since we are talking about the Prophet Muhammad PBUH, I'd prefer not to comment on the morality (or lack thereof) of this specific issue. Regards, Iskandar Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'd say a child of around 7 or 9 lunar years of age is a more accurate term than young woman when she marries a person 50 years older than her. She is what she is whether she is married or not. She was barely 18 when she became a widow, and could not marry again ever. So what are you ultimately trying to say? Peace Gilberto Regards, Iskandar __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
yep I agree with you Gilberto. It could be that at a young age this woman recognised the purity and specialness of the Prophet and was therefore very willing to marry Him. Times and habits and way of thinking and mores were completely different then. Plus, the Prophet was a very special person. with love, janine --- Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The sources indicate that the nikah didn't occur until after puberty. In Islam, that's when a person becomes an adult. What other definition of woman are you using? Peace Gilberto On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:59:53 -0500 (EST), Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm saying that when a 53-year old male marries a 20-30 year old female, he has married a young woman, and when he marries a female who is barely 18 he then has married a teenager. When a 53-year old male marries a female who has just barely tuned 9 lunar years, it is not accurate to say that he married a young woman, Gilberto. The thing is, dear Gilberto, that if a 50-year old male now decides to consummate a marriage with a ten-year old girl he cannot do that in 2005 in most any place now. He cannot argue that he has her consent and her parents' consent, that she is happy with it, that she is physically/emotionally mature, that she has had her menses, etc., etc. He just can't call it marriage. Since we are talking about the Prophet Muhammad PBUH, I'd prefer not to comment on the morality (or lack thereof) of this specific issue. Regards, Iskandar Quoting Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'd say a child of around 7 or 9 lunar years of age is a more accurate term than young woman when she marries a person 50 years older than her. She is what she is whether she is married or not. She was barely 18 when she became a widow, and could not marry again ever. So what are you ultimately trying to say? Peace Gilberto Regards, Iskandar __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
In Islam, that's when a person becomes an adult. What other definition of woman are you using? Dear Gilberto, So do you think it would be okay today if a mature man married and had intercourse with a ten year old girl so long as she had had her menses? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Janine: It could be that at a young age this woman recognised the purity and specialness of the Prophet and was therefore very willing to marry Him. Should the Prophet marry any girl (no matter what age) who would like to get married to Him? regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
Hi Mark, I am a bit confused as how you mean this. Do you mean to say that discussions of this sort assume that there is something called goodness in people, do you mean to say that goodness changes with each new Manifestation, that each new Manifestation, because of the taxonomies He uses defines anew what goodness is? much love, janine van rooij dublin, ireland"Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMO, the problem with discussions of this sort is that they assume there is something called "goodness" apart from the taxonomies provided by the Prophet in each Dispensation.Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED]"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." Abbie Hoffman __You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Hi, Janine, At 07:17 AM 1/24/2005, you wrote: The problem I see is that various religions have different views on how things should be handled. all religions except the Bahai faith have priests and different schools of thought. Actually, there are many religions which do not have clergy, including Hicksite Quakerism (Friends General Conference in the U.S.), Doukhoborism, Sikhism, Confucianism, Christian Science, the Theosophical Society, Christadelphianism, etc. There may officially be no schools of thought in the Baha'i Faith. However, I think that the varied postings on the Internet would indicate the presence of several schools of thought, or Baha'i faiths, among Baha'is. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 05:17:28 -0800 (PST), louise mchenry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Janine: The problem I see is that various religions have different views on how things should be handled. all religions except the Bahai faith have priests and different schools of thought. Gilberto: I know that Bahais say things like this but I don't think that's true. Even in my conversations here, there are certainly Bahais with different understandings of various issues, different schools of thought. And there are many religions which don't have priests. (Islam for instance. The Quakers would be another) Authority, ultimate authority, is given to one person (like the Pope, the Dalai Lama, Khomeini). There are many Protestant churches which run rather democratically as well. the world is becoming more and more one entity. More and more we see that what happens in one country affects other countries. For example, political refugees have been flooding western countries Actually I've read that the worldwide, the country which takes in the most refugees is Iran. the last 20 years to the point that western countries feel they cannot take on more immigrants and something should be done in the countries of origin so that people do not feel endangered. Political refugees are usually people who have no chance of making a normal living in their own countries, whose livelihood is threatened or whose life is at stake. This relates directly to how a country views what is humane and what not, what should be punished and what not, what is eligible for open speech and what not. If a country sees a particular action, like voicing one's opinion about a government, as punishable with death, then it will most likely produce political refugees. Wait, hold on a sec. You are mixing all sorts of things together. Political repression isn't justifiable Islamically. And I'm certainly not defending it. I think leaders should definitely be made to be accountable for what they do and their behavior should be open to public debate. There are many non-Muslim countries where the leaders don't like being criticized and they repress their own citizens. Christian, Muslim, and secular. This isn't a religious issue. And who is the main authority on behalf of the religion in say a religion as Islam? There are no priests in Islam. For example, in many Islamic countries we see that women are extremely restricted in what they can do and what role in public they can play. And in some Islamic countries we see that women got certain rights or have reached certain milestones faster than many Western countries. Societies change. Bahais seem to simply assume that Muslim societies are frozen and things won't improve in the Muslim world but they actually have in certain respects. So how can in this scenario religion remind people of certain principles, when people simply do not want to listen to the principles? It's never that simple. If you want to talk about women, there actually are progressive Islamic movements, there are feminist Muslims, there are scholars, both men and women, who are reading the Quran and hadith with new eyes more sensitive to the needs and concerns of women in society. So changes are actually occuring. In the West, in some countries, most of the converts to Islam are actually women. Who can enforce these principles, when all the religious leaders, who are appointed for life, and not elected by the people themselves, are against them? What are you talking about? There are no priests, let alone priests for life in Islam. I think you just have a really bizzare idea of authority in Islam. And the same applies in Christianity, of which I know catholicism best, since I grew up a Catholic. Although in Islam it seems to be worse, because in Catholicism you have the Pope, whereas in Islam there is no central point where people can refer to, as far as I know (maybe I am totally wrong here, I do not know that much about Islam, except a bit of the Qur'an). I have the impression you are bouncing back and forth in some inconsistent way. Because first you seemed to be saying that having priests and having a certain kind of authority structure was a bad thing. But now you say having a Pope is a good thing. It just gives the impression that you are simply biased against Islam, want to delegitimize it, whether or not any facts or logic support your claims. But the Pope's authority is not accepted by Protestants, and the head of the Anglican church is not an authority Methodists recognise. So who are going to be spokespeople for Christianity? Why does there need to be a spokesperson for Christianity? The principles on certain things differ also from religion to religion. There is a consensus in religions, like the golden rule. But in other things one can extract a different idea from religion to religion. For example, a state inspired by Hindu teachings can put up
Re: Arson
Hi, Janine, At 07:21 AM 1/24/2005, you wrote: I am a bit confused as how you mean this. Do you mean to say that discussions of this sort assume that there is something called goodness in people, do you mean to say that goodness changes with each new Manifestation, that each new Manifestation, because of the taxonomies He uses defines anew what goodness is? I am saying that goodness (or badness) is simply a name to signify what a particular Prophet, group, or ordinary individual regards as being good (or bad). I don't know whether goodness *always* changes with each new Dispensation, though I imagine it does (at least with respect to social ordinances), but it is certainly God's prerogative to categorize behaviors previously defined to be bad as good and vice-versa. On the other hand, a extreme Platonist (idealist realist) might contend that goodness is a part of God's nature. Therefore, she or he might presume it can never be altered. In other words, if Muhammad makes one ethical pronouncement and Baha'u'llah makes another, each of them, applying the principle of progressive Revelation, would be *good relative to that Prophet's paradigm. Similarly, human standards of goodness (values) can only be evaluated in juxtaposition to specific cultures and societies (cultural relativism). Progressive Revelation, which is the divine standard of goodness, provides relative truth across time, within Dispensations, and in the life cycles of particular societies, groups, and individuals. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
In a message dated 1/24/2005 8:11:22 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe that each Bahai has their own version of the Bahai faith. And it is the love each baha`i has in his heart for Baha`u'llah that keeps it united. The love expressed as trust in Baha`u'llah's laws, and the establishment of the institutions He createdthat permits it to have a personal Faith and a communal Faith at the same time. Islam and Christianity allowed the "schools of thought" to factionalize them. In this dispensation no faction has prospered where in the past almost every faction prospered enough to shatter unity. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/24/2005 8:33:48 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But that's not even the main issue. The thing I'm having troubleseeing from your perspective is why God would have mandated thepunishment to begin with? Even though I disagree with many of thethings you mentioned in your list, not one of them would be any lesstrue before 1844. Because then it was appropriate to mark the habitual thief in a way that was easy to spot. Punishment for theft nowadays in the west is imprisonment with the hope that the perpetrator can be rehabilitated. Rehabilitation would be more difficult if he was branded or mutilated for his crime. That's western perspective. Baha`i perspective is that the Islamic punishment suited the time and place. It doesnot suit THIS time and place because God has altered it. If that's unconvincing, who said you had to be convinced? This is a discussion, how often will discussion lead to convincing those who hold contrary positions? Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/24/2005 8:38:50 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But if "good" is worth calling "good" then shouldn't it be independentof the prophet? God is the Source of All BOunty. The manifestation is the Revealer of God's Bounty. I avoid the term Prophet because I do not think the English meaning and the Arabic meaning are really the same. The Messiah, The Promised One, the Friend of God, He Who Saw God, the Enlightened One is far more than a prophet. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 06:55:33 -0800 (PST), louise mchenry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HI Gilberto, It seems I did not make myself clear. I apologise. I made some remarks in that post which showed forth my ignorance ;o) First, I assumed from your post that you meant that religion needs to guide people back to the core teachings of that religion. Gilberto: Sure. That's a fair assumption.A religion should promote certain core values in socieity. (So that might seem like a conservative tendancy). But it should also remain aware of the current situation and act accordingly to stay relevant. L: My question was: how can religion by itself do this? Suppose that a Bahai country interprets the Bahai writings to say that an arsonist should be burned. So this country makes a law whereby the punishment of arson is burning, no matter what was set on fire, a car, an empty warehouse, a house full of people. In the Bahai faith, as soon as the UHJ becomes aware of a country where the code of law was influenced by the Bahai laws, I am sure the UHJ would say to this country they are implementing that law too strictly and too narrowly. I wouldn't automatically assume that but that's ok. L: A religion who has no authority centre cannot do this. A religion needs an administrative structure to be able to guide people back to the core. I think that isn't true. Religions with decentralized authority can still change in response to new situations. It might happen slowly or unevenly but that's actually ok with me. Besides, even in Islam there are still mid-level national and international organizations and associations that can mobilize large numbers of people. So some kinds of coordination can happen that way. But I would actually be very mistrustful of a centralized authority which claimed to be infallible. Another aspect to how a religion can be brought back to its core is through reformers. It is actually a prophecy of Muhammad, that in every century (Islamic) a reformer will arise who will revive the community's understanding of the religion. So powerful figures do rise up, get recongized, and reenergize the community. That is what that whole thing about priests and the pope etc. was all about: my attempt to clarify that a religion cannot bring people back to the core if the people are confused about what the core is, and how can we be sure they are not, when there is no central point who has the final say in matters. Here's another kind of example I had in mind when I was thinking about how a religion can promote certain core values in society. This is kind of oversimplified but: If you look at Christianity in the US during the earlier part of the 20th century, in many of the white churches were segregated, and racism was openly preached from the pulpit. But through the civil rights movement, organized out of Black churches, the countries conscience was pricked, and now it would be rare to find churches where segregation and racism were openly preached by the pulpit. In order for that process of change to occur, it didn't require Martin Luther King to become pope. I did *NOT* mean to say that Islam justifies political suppression. That is something you read in my words, not what I meant or implied. What I am trying to figure out is how you see it that when there is no administrative structure in a religion, how religion can lead people back to the core, and how it can prevent that people make laws which are very strict and based on a narrow interpretation of the scriptures of that religion. G: The above is a good example. L: Also, I felt that even if one religion goes back to the core, the other religions have different cores or different interpretations about what the core is. And what happens in one country affects others. So if one country, a Christian for example, interprets that women who have an abortion should be put to death, or a person who performs abortion should be put to death, this country will create political refugees, who will go to another country to seek asylum. And that at a certain point these other countries might feel that the country which is doing this to its people needs to be made to understand that it is not doing things correctly, that it is suppressing people. But what if this country is adamant and says: no, this is our interpretation of the scripture? G: But the country doesn't have a uniform view or understanding, Individuals in every country are going to have different opinions. For example, in Saudi Arabia the Wahabi movement is very strong, but there are also dissidents who want to change the direction which the country is going in. In order for change to occur, some alternative movement in the ideological spectrum can become more powerful, persuasive, and then reach a tipping point. L: Look, I gather from the various posts I have glimpsed at, that you feel that Bahais have a negative view of Islamic countries. I
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:05:10 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/24/2005 8:53:18 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: History After Charles Mason Remey's proclamation in 1960 that he was the second Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, his followers became known as the Orthodox Bahá'í Faith. Among those who accepted Remey's proclamation, several further divisions have occurred. Some of these are described below: You are actually missing several factions before these. G: Yes, I realized there were earlier splits but it took more than a minute to find the relevant article which discussed them so I just went with the Remey-ites. They did not prosper either. Mason Remey pulled away how many Baha`i's of the time? probably less than 200. Didn't the French NSA approve of Remey's claims at the time? Were there only 200 Bahais in France at the time? One cannot say a faction has prospered if it breaks into smaller less tiny factions over time. Jensen is the result of one of the senescent Remey's appointments as Guardian. It too has gotten smaller over time. That is not a quality of prosperity. Where is it possible to find recent statistics on the growth or decline of Bahais in different parts of the world? I've heard Bahai growth figures have been stagnant too. Would you like an outline of the history of covenant breakers you have missed? If its not inconvenient, sure. Look. All I'm really saying is that it is insulting to cast all sorts of negative aspersions on other religions for being split, when your own religion has obvious splits. It's like this massive act of denial. Like you think your s*** doesn't stink. We all see things from our own perspectives. We don't all see the world in the same way. Sometimes that means people in the same religion will read the same texts and interpret them differently. Sometimes those differences are large enough to cause a split. This is not surprising or shocking. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good versus God [was Arson]
Mark:I am saying that "goodness" (or "badness") is simply a name to signify what a particular Prophet, group, or ordinary individual regards as being good (or bad).JS: So are you saying that nothing above and beyond what the Manifestations reveal exists in man's mind, heart, or his environment to manifest signs of and lessons on, goodness? In other words, God has no interaction with man outside of the interaction between man and the Manifestation. If goodness is only the product of the Pen and Tongue of the Manifestation, then animal behavior cannot be bad or good, since the animal cannot understand the Manifestation. A snake biting and poisoning a rabbit, for example, cannot be described as 'bad' or 'murder'. Likewise, since man cannot understand God, just as a dog cannot understand Baha'u'llah, we cannot know, and we cannot understand, what goodness or badness is to God except as manifested through His Manifestations. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good versus God [was Arson]
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:09:56 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark: I am saying that goodness (or badness) is simply a name to signify what a particular Prophet, group, or ordinary individual regards as being good (or bad). Do you think this is just your independent opinion or is it ultimately rooted in the Bahai faith somehow? I suspect that it probably is common among Bahais who have thought about ethics and morality a certain way but I would be interested in your take on it. I wonder what you would think about the example of slavery? There were certainly Christian abolitionists who well before the Babi/Bahai faith spoke against slavery realized on their own that there was something morally questionable about that peculiar institution. So were they actually wrong? Was slavery actually ok until the very moment that it was banned? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 07:17:26 -0800 (PST), louise mchenry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep. but they are not considered bahais. They call themselves Orthodox Bahais. Despite that they call themselves Bahai and see themselves as followers of Baha;u;llah, yet they have violated the covenant, because if you read what is written in the will and testaments you will see that we had the institute of the Guardian, but we had not the institute of the UHJ after Shoghi Effendi passed away, and that what followed was a logical consequence of the Will and Testaments of both Abdu'l-Baha and Baha'u'llah. Yes. I've heard that before. I've heard Protestants who will say with a straight face and without stuttering that Catholics are not Christian. And I know of Wahibis who will say with a straight face and without stuttering that there are no sects in Islam and that Shia, or even traditional Sunni Muslims are not Muslim. It isn't surprising to me anymore that people can look at the exact same text and come up with two totally different interpretations. I've looked more at Catholicism in the past few years to hear there side of things and as someone who was raised Protestant it is interesting to see how much of Catholic doctrine actually comes out of the Bible. Everyone thinks their beliefs are obvious. Just read the book and you will see. [2.113] And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ. Peace My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Hi, Janine, At 08:11 AM 1/24/2005, you wrote: about the Bahai faith: what I feel is that there are different ideas in the Bahai faith because people are different. Yes, I think that would be true by definition. My take is that one idea cannot develop in a different school of thought leading to schisms, just like in previous religions. Not leading to schisms, no. However, I think that there clearly *are* different schools of thought among Baha'is, even if they are not always acknowledged. I believe that each Bahai has their own version of the Bahai faith. Yes, or at least different groups of Baha'is have socially constructed their own Baha'i faiths or Baha'i paradigms. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
In a message dated 1/24/2005 10:40:20 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Didn't the French NSA approve of Remey's claims at the time? Werethere only 200 Bahais in France at the time? Five of the NSA voted to go with Remey. The Hands sent in a couple representatives and declared the French NSA to be dissolv ed. A new French NSA was elected and few French Baha`i's stayed with the five members who voted to follow Remey. There were more than 200 French Baha`is but very few stayed with Remey. Thanks to quick handling by the Hands. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
In a message dated 1/24/2005 10:40:20 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Look. All I'm really saying is that it is insulting to cast all sortsof negative aspersions on other religions for being split, when yourown religion has obvious splits. It's like this massive act of denial.Like you think your s*** doesn't stink. We all see things from our ownperspectives. We don't all see the world in the same way. Sometimesthat means people in the "same" religion will read the "same" textsand interpret them differently. Sometimes those differences are largeenough to cause a "split". This is not surprising or shocking. I cast no aspersions on other faiths for their splintered fate. They were not designed to remain united. The Baha`i Faith was. As to Catholics and Protestants there are more total Protestants than Roman catholics by a long shot. Protestantism prospered. None of the splinters from the faith of Baha`u'llah prospered they all withered and wasted away. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
Hi, Gilberto, At 08:38 AM 1/24/2005, you wrote: But if good is worth calling good then shouldn't it be independent of the prophet? I am not sure how something could be worth calling good. I have not been a neo-Platonist for about 5 or 6 years, so I don't see *goodness* as a quality detached from the process of naming by a particular Prophet. Whatever Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, etc. signified as being good was good in the contexts of their Revelations. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good versus God [was Arson]
So are you saying that nothing above and beyond what the Manifestations reveal exists in man's mind, heart, or his environment to manifest signs of and lessons on, goodness? In other words, God has no interaction with man outside of the interaction between man and the Manifestation. Well, I would want to separate out those ideas: First, yes, I do *not* think that goodness is, from a Baha'i perspective, a valid concept apart from the Revelation of a Prophet. However, anyone is obviously free to define goodness in any fashion they please. (Goodness *is* nothing but categorization.) Second, your statement would appear to assume something like natural theology, a common approach among religious and ethical humanists, which I do not accept. Third, I believe that God can have interaction with anyone, especially through prayer and meditation. However, as `Abdu'l-Baha said, personal intuitions and visions can easily be confused with imagination and are, therefore, untrustworthy. If goodness is only the product of the Pen and Tongue of the Manifestation, then animal behavior cannot be bad or good, since the animal cannot understand the Manifestation. I would agree that animals are neither good nor bad - except in relation to human values. A snake biting and poisoning a rabbit, for example, cannot be described as 'bad' or 'murder'. Likewise, since man cannot understand God, just as a dog cannot understand Baha'u'llah, we cannot know, and we cannot understand, what goodness or badness is to God except as manifested through His Manifestations. I think so, yes. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Good versus God [was Arson]
Hi, Gilberto, At 02:40 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote: Do you think this is just your independent opinion or is it ultimately rooted in the Bahai faith somehow? I suspect that it probably is common among Bahais who have thought about ethics and morality a certain way but I would be interested in your take on it. It is a combination of my own readings, my dialogues with Susan Maneck over the last 10 years (though I would not blame her for any of my views!), and my understandings of various Baha'i texts, including those which distinguish between a particular individual's essence and its qualities. Also, the following: And should the Essence of Truth reveal that which is contrary to their inclinations and desires, they will straightway denounce Him as an infidel, and will protest saying: 'This is contrary to the sayings of the Imams of the Faith and of the resplendent lights. No such thing hath been provided by our inviolable Law.' Even so in this day such worthless statements have been and are being made by these poor mortals. And now, consider this other tradition, and observe how all these things have been foretold. In 'Arba'in' it is recorded: 'Out of Bani-Hashim there shall come forth a Youth Who shall reveal new laws. He shall summon the people unto Him, but none will heed His call. Most of His enemies will be the divines. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: This is contrary to that which hath been handed down unto us by the Imams of the Faith.' In this day, all are repeating these very same words, utterly unaware that He is established upon the throne of 'He doeth whatsoever He willeth,' and abideth upon the seat of 'He ordaineth whatsoever He pleaseth.' No understanding can grasp the nature of His Revelation, nor can any knowledge comprehend the full measure of His Faith. All sayings are dependent upon His sanction, and all things stand in need of His Cause. All else save Him are created by His command, and move and have their being through His law. -- Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp.242-243 I wonder what you would think about the example of slavery? There were certainly Christian abolitionists who well before the Babi/Bahai faith spoke against slavery realized on their own that there was something morally questionable about that peculiar institution. So were they actually wrong? Was slavery actually ok until the very moment that it was banned? Personally, I would say that slavery, including the rather strange capitalistic variety in the United States, has been wrong for some time. However, in saying so, I am asserting my own will, not necessarily the Will of God. The only standard we have for the Will of God is the Revelations of His Prophets. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
These stats are 10 years old, but they are still basically accurate: Catholic 968,000,000 Protestant 395,867,000 Other Christians 275,583,000 Orthodox 217,948,000 Anglicans 70,530,000 http://adherents.com/adh_branches.html#Christianity Even throwing in other Christians and Anglicans, there are more Catholics than Protestants. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Gilberto, At 05:29 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote: If so perhaps *all* the followers of Bahaullah are declining. Stagnating, not necessarily declining. Most religions are not growing. Notable exceptions are some of the branches of Islam, the pentecostal-charismatic movement, Mormonism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Hi Gilberto, thanks for your response. Food for thought and a challenge to make my understanding and thoughts more clear. : My question was: how can religion by itself do this? Suppose that a Bahai country interprets the Bahai writings to say that an arsonist should be burned. So this country makes a law whereby the punishment of arson is burning, no matter what was set on fire, a car, an empty warehouse, a house full of people. In the Bahai faith, as soon as the UHJ becomes aware of a country where the code of law was influenced by the Bahai laws, I am sure the UHJ would say to this country they are implementing that law too strictly and too narrowly. gilberto: I wouldn't automatically assume that but that's ok. Janine: I assume that because Baha'u'llah says that it is also okay to change the sentence of burning an arsonist to life sentence. And the UHJ has said that there is a differencebetween a school full of children being set on fire or an empty warehouse. L: A religion who has no authority centre cannot do this. A religion needs an administrative structure to be able to guide people back to the core. I think that isn't true. Religions with decentralized authority canstill change in response to new situations. It might happen slowly orunevenly but that's actually ok with me. Besides, even in Islam thereare still mid-level national and international organizations andassociations that can mobilize large numbers of people. So some kindsof coordination can happen that way.. Janine: I can see that as a possibility. It is a good argument. Gilberto: But I would actually be verymistrustful of a centralized authority which claimed to be infallible I would be so as well, unless it was said by someone who I think is speaking with God's authority. Baha'u'llah is someone Who has that authority, for me, and it is He who says that in matters of legislation with regards to matters not clear in the Bahai writings, and guiding the Bahai faiththe UHJ is infallible. Gilberto: Another aspect to how a religion can be brought back to its core isthrough reformers. It is actually a prophecy of Muhammad, that inevery century (Islamic) a reformer will arise who will revive thecommunity's understanding of the religion. So powerful figures do riseup, get recongized, and reenergize the community. Janine: but how do you discern who is a reformer who has the goodwill and approval of Allah? From where I am standing, reformers in religions always lead to more divisions, more fractions be formed, more offficial schools of thought established which then led to schisms. That is what that whole thing about priests and the pope etc. was all about: my attempt to clarify that a religion cannot bring people back to the core if the people are confused about what the core is, and how can we be sure they are not, when there is no central point who has the final say in matters. Gilberto: Here's another kind of example I had in mind when I was thinking abouthow a religion can promote certain core values in society. This iskind of oversimplified but:If you look at Christianity in the US during the earlier part of the20th century, in many of the white churches were segregated, andracism was openly preached f! rom the pulpit. But through the civilrights movement, organized out of Black churches, the countriesconscience was pricked, and now it would be rare to find churcheswhere segregation and racism were openly preached by the pulpit. Inorder for that process of change to occur, it didn't require MartinLuther King to become pope. Janine: but how was it possible that the civil rights movement did get so much support, that it spoke to so many people, at that particular time? Was it not because peoples' awareness and understanding had grown? Both on the black people's side, who in great numbers decided not to put up with any form of discrimination any more, even should they have to die for the promotion of racial equality, and also on the white people's side, who realised more and more that the whole idea of superiority based on the colour of one's skin or one's race was totally not in accordance with Reality. As I understand it, Martin Luther King was not the only one who advocated racial unity. Rosa Parks was an example of not putting up with discrimination, with taking the back seat. And there were a few others as well. Martin King had a following, yes. And in my view that made him a priest, just like Ghandi. Both are people whose ideas I find very valuable. And I think both did a lot not to be seen as special, as better than others, as deserving a different treatment than others. L: Also, I felt that even if one religion goes back to the core, the other religions have different cores or different interpretations about what the core is. And what happens in one country affects others. So if one country, a Christian for example, interprets that women who have an abortion should be put to death, or a person who performs abortion should
Re: punishment of crimes - was arson.
Hi, Janine, At 06:22 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote: From where I am sitting, here in Europe, I cannot see that there are even different groups of Bahais. For me, where I am sitting, every Bahai has their own take on the Bahai religion, and although some will support some thoughts some people have published, they will not support all of the thoughts of that person. Most of the socially constructed Baha'i paradigms (Baha'i faiths) I am referring to are not theological or ideological (thought there are some). They are formulated around subcultures of engagement, i.e., methodologies or epistemologies. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu