subject:"ditching Apple products due to boycotts\?"

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 21:41, Bryan O'Neal 
bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com wrote:

 Did you not even read you cited references?


Not that I am complaining. I think it was a bold move that paid off
 very, very, well. But denying the nature of the conflict is like
 saying the Civil War was fought over slavery. It is fine for your Jr.
 High text book but when grow, otherwise intelligent, people try
 spouting that stuff they are either American idiots or just don't
 care.

 To quote from the wikipidia page you cited.

 The Mexican–American War was an armed conflict between the United
 States and Mexico from 1846 to 1848 in the wake of the 1845 U.S.
 annexation of Texas, which Mexico considered part of its territory
 despite the 1836 Texas Revolution.


Bryan you make me laugh :)
Placing aside your inflammatory 'American idiot' speak...lets say that for
argument's sake that Mexico under duress sold parts of modern day America
150+ years ago rather than surrender their entire country to the EVIL
American empire.  Any affected people at the time would have become
Americans or chosen to move to Mexico.
Please explain this to me (perhaps off list) :)  How does something that
happened generations before anyone alive was born justify breaking laws
now?
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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread James Finstrom

Regardless of your political point of view or personal feelings on the
issues boycotts by state are stupid and pointless. These boycotts of
arizona do not affect those who affect the law. The boycotts only hurt
those they are trying to protect. I am a fan of an eye for an eye but
these boycotts end up taking a toe, thunb and an ear with the eye.

On 5/18/10, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:
 On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 21:41, Bryan O'Neal 
 bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com wrote:

 Did you not even read you cited references?


 Not that I am complaining. I think it was a bold move that paid off
 very, very, well. But denying the nature of the conflict is like
 saying the Civil War was fought over slavery. It is fine for your Jr.
 High text book but when grow, otherwise intelligent, people try
 spouting that stuff they are either American idiots or just don't
 care.

 To quote from the wikipidia page you cited.

 The Mexican–American War was an armed conflict between the United
 States and Mexico from 1846 to 1848 in the wake of the 1845 U.S.
 annexation of Texas, which Mexico considered part of its territory
 despite the 1836 Texas Revolution.


 Bryan you make me laugh :)
 Placing aside your inflammatory 'American idiot' speak...lets say that for
 argument's sake that Mexico under duress sold parts of modern day America
 150+ years ago rather than surrender their entire country to the EVIL
 American empire.  Any affected people at the time would have become
 Americans or chosen to move to Mexico.
 Please explain this to me (perhaps off list) :)  How does something that
 happened generations before anyone alive was born justify breaking laws
 now?


-- 
Sent from my mobile device

James Finstrom
Rhino Equipment Corp.
http://rhinoequipment.com ~ http://postug.com
Phone: 1-877-RHINO-T1 ~ FAX: +1 (480) 961-1826
Twitter: http://twitter.com/rhinoequipment
IP: gu...@asterisk.rhinoequipment.com
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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 06:58, James Finstrom
jfinst...@rhinoequipment.comwrote:

 Regardless of your political point of view or personal feelings on the
 issues boycotts by state are stupid and pointless. These boycotts of
 arizona do not affect those who affect the law. The boycotts only hurt
 those they are trying to protect. I am a fan of an eye for an eye but
 these boycotts end up taking a toe, thunb and an ear with the eye.

 I agree.. boycotting unrelated entities is stupid.
We have a new entity to add to the list of 'Arizona Boycotters'.. Seattle
city council :)
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/05/17/seattle-residents-oppose-arizona-boycott

I wasn't planning on vacationing in Seattle.. but I'll definitely not go
there now :)
Fortunately Linux has no official country or state of origin for people to
boycott.

JD
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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

All rhetoric aside... for anyone actually interested the text of the law
fueling all of this debate you can read it here:
http://www.azleg.gov/alispdfs/council/SB1070-HB2162.PDF
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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

They teach hate and AZTLAN.  They teach that this is their land - Mexico.  That 
is unAmerican and if I might say so, racist.  What does La Raza stand for?  The 
Race!

If I as a white man was to start a group called The Race or something similar 
like the Aryan Nation which I denounce right here right now, I would be 
labeled a racist.  

Watch this video and tell me La Raza is not a problem - 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGqPo5ofk0s

Tell me we are not traveling full speed towards a race war?

Instead of embracing the American dream these groups poison young minds which 
will ultimately destroy lives.    

This is America!  I'm tired of the bellyaching and all the poor me stuff.  
This is the land of opportunity.  Don't expect a handout and don't expect me to 
pay our bills.  Get up off your lazy behind and make something happen.

I worked midnight shift as a police officer so I could attend college during 
the day.  It was hard but that is what it takes.  You wants something don't 
look to the government look to your God and your Savior and get out and pay the 
price.

This is America!  If you do not like it here get out.  You are dead weight and 
you are holding those of us of who what REAL change, back.  Beleive me you have 
not experienced anything like a red blooded American that feels he is being 
wronged.  We will right what is wrong with this country and that includes those 
who have come here illegally.  I do not stand alone.  The surveys say 50 - 70% 
of America is behind Arizona.  There is a battle line being drawn.  What side 
will you be on?

If you are on the side of La Raza you will loose.  This is America.  If you fly 
the Mexican flag expect trouble.

As a Christian man I believe I am to live in peace with you as much as you will 
allow.  

My Bible says in Romans 12: 8 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, 
live at peace with everyone..  That says it is up to you.  I want peace and 
revival in this land.  If you however want trouble that is on your head, and 
that is what you will get.  






Keith Smith

--- On Mon, 5/17/10, David da...@damnetwork.net wrote:

From: David da...@damnetwork.net
Subject: Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:56 PM

Why?  Serious inquiry.   From my brief reading, they don't do anything many 
other political groups do.

David

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
--Darth Vader



On May 17, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:

 
 
    David,
 
      Will you condemn and denounce the political groups La Raza and MEChA 
right now?
 
    -jmz
 
 
 
  
 
 On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:42 PM, David da...@damnetwork.net wrote:
 Josh, I don't know you from Adam, but FU for calling me unAmerican.
 
 Yes, a personal attack.  Just as the comment I'm referring to is.
 
 David
 I find your lack of faith disturbing.
 --Darth Vader
 
 
 
 On May 17, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:
 
 
    Tuna,
 
      We were discussing macro economic trends that effect all linux 
 developers as well as issues pertaining to Arizona and Linux.  Just because 
 some deem the issue of illegal aliens to be out of bounds does not mean we 
 terminate the discussion whenever we arrive at the subject.  Of course some 
 people don't like it being discussed.  Those are the people who want to 
 prevent action from being taken.  There are some of these people on this 
 thread.  How can we discuss anything these days without addressing *what is 
 right in front of our faces every day*!?
 
      The fact is everyone, this country is in deep doo doo.  It's not a 
 laughing matter.  Anyone who was at the Sharpton rally will tell you that 
 these people are violent and they most certainly are un-american.  Our state 
 is broke, as are many other states.  Our ability to maintain our technology 
 sector will rely heavily on our ability to stabilize ourselves politically.  
 This means *your job*.  It might even be an opportunity to position 
 ourselves profitably relative to California.  Discussion is absolutely 
 critical to moving in the right direction.  Don't let people blow the issue 
 out of proportion or try to turn it into some racial battleground.
 
      That being said, you may now return to complaining about COX service or 
 whatever other stuff is 'on topic'.
 
    -jmz
 
 
  On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Tuna t...@supertunaman.com wrote:
          /|      ___
         / |   __--     --__      |\
         |  \_--            --_  /  |
         |    )                \/   |
          \__/                     /
          )     ,-`
          /          0   ..   0 |
         /         /|           | ,
         \   ,__  / |           \/ |
          \     ```)
           \__/
         ILLEGAL ALIEN IS ILLEGAL
 
  I created this ascii art myself, and hereby release it into the public 
  domain

Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

More misinformation.  We have had 3 or 4 police officers killed by Illegals in 
the recent past.  Phoenix is the kidnap capital of the WORLD.  Most of the 
kidnaps, tortures, and murders are illegals. 

I called ICE and they told me they estimate there are about 500,000 illegals in 
Phoenix.  That means there is a MILLION! As a police officer I saw plenty of 
violence - rape, knifings, shootings, and homicides perpetrated by illegals. 

Just because the crime rate is not rising means nothing.  It means that if 25% 
of the homicides are perpetrated by illegals and nothing changes we have the 
same crime level.

It is being reported that half of all homicides in LA are perpetrated by 
Illegals.

Last year I talked with a Border Patrolman who worked on the border by 
Nogales.  He said it was no man's land.  Are you hearing about the gun battles 
on the border.  No you are not.  You have no idea what is happening right here 
in our own community.

If you want the truth turn off your TV and start reading the blogs.  The real 
truth is our there.  

 



Keith Smith

--- On Mon, 5/17/10, Ariel Gold arielqg...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Ariel Gold arielqg...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 11:40 PM

Sure, some of the radical rhetoric, on both sides, sounds scary, and I 
understand people are upset and angry. While I don't think a listserv lends to 
people understanding each other on a volatile issue like this, I thought I'd 
still share this link from the conservative think tank, the Cato Institute. 



Misguided Fears of Crime Fuel Arizona Immigration Law

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/04/27/misguided-fears-of-crime-fuel-arizona-immigration-law/







2010/5/17 Bryan O'Neal bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com



Indeed I did ;)



On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Tim Noeding tim.noed...@gmail.com wrote:

 Flame wars? Really? Did you all read that linux magazine article about how

 the editor thinks they are enjoyable reads?



 from my DROID



 On May 17, 2010 9:41 PM, Bryan Oapos;Neal

 bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com wrote:



 Did you not even read you cited references? It is more like if I

 called your mama fat beat you up and then drove off down the street in

 your car after tossing you a few bucks and a pick of your naked sister

 out the window onto your limp body and then when the cops showed up

 made you say thank you and apologize for wasting my time ;)



 Not that I am complaining. I think it was a bold move that paid off

 very, very, well. But denying the nature of the conflict is like

 saying the Civil War was fought over slavery. It is fine for your Jr.

 High text book but when grow, otherwise intelligent, people try

 spouting that stuff they are either American idiots or just don't

 care.



 To quote from the wikipidia page you cited.



 The Mexican–American War was an armed conflict between the United

 States and Mexico from 1846 to 1848 in the wake of the 1845 U.S.

 annexation of Texas, which Mexico considered part of its territory

 despite the 1836 Texas Revolution.



 In addition to a naval blockade of the Mexican coast, American forces

 invaded and conquered New Mexico, California and parts of northern

 Mexico. Another American army captured Mexico City, forcing Mexico to

 agree to the sale of its northern territories to the U.S.



 On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 8:47 PM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:





 On Mon, May 17, 2010 at...



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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?


I agree.  The first question one should ask when someone makes a comment is 
Have you read the law?.  I have and it is very tame.



Keith Smith

--- On Tue, 5/18/10, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:

From: JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com
Subject: Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 8:31 AM

All rhetoric aside... for anyone actually interested the text of the law 
fueling all of this debate you can read it here:
http://www.azleg.gov/alispdfs/council/SB1070-HB2162.PDF





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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread James Finstrom

When I heard of 1070 and before and since it was signed I have read:
- The bill ( 4 times at least )
- The U.S. Constitution as it applies
-- 4th amendment
--- Supreme court opinions and case law on the 4th amendment
-- 10th amendment - States Rights
-- 11th amendment  - related to the boycotts
- U.S. Immigration laws
- Mexican Constitution
- Mexico's Immigration laws

I guess ignorance is bliss but I prefer to be tormented and distracted by
knowledge.

---James


On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 10:24 AM, keith smith klsmith2...@yahoo.com wrote:


 I agree.  The first question one should ask when someone makes a comment is
 Have you read the law?.  I have and it is very tame.

 
 Keith Smith

 --- On *Tue, 5/18/10, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com* wrote:


 From: JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com

 Subject: Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
 To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
 Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 8:31 AM


 All rhetoric aside... for anyone actually interested the text of the law
 fueling all of this debate you can read it here:
 http://www.azleg.gov/alispdfs/council/SB1070-HB2162.PDF



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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

   As much as David would like to depict these groups equivalent to The Boy
Scouts of America or similar organizations, it should be made abundantly
clear what constitutes their politics.  Not only do these groups freely
demonstrate and organize here, but *they are supported and funded by our
STATE UNIVERSITIES*.

   http://www.public.asu.edu/~mechanet/

http://www.public.asu.edu/~mechanet/  Wake up and smell the coffee.

  -jmz


On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 10:03 AM, keith smith klsmith2...@yahoo.com wrote:

 They teach hate and AZTLAN.  They teach that this is their land - Mexico.
 That is unAmerican and if I might say so, racist.  What does La Raza stand
 for?  The Race!

 If I as a white man was to start a group called The Race or something
 similar like the Aryan Nation which I denounce right here right now, I
 would be labeled a racist.

 Watch this video and tell me La Raza is not a problem -
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGqPo5ofk0s

 Tell me we are not traveling full speed towards a race war?

 Instead of embracing the American dream these groups poison young minds
 which will ultimately destroy lives.

 This is America!  I'm tired of the bellyaching and all the poor me
 stuff.  This is the land of opportunity.  Don't expect a handout and don't
 expect me to pay our bills.  Get up off your lazy behind and make something
 happen.

 I worked midnight shift as a police officer so I could attend college
 during the day.  It was hard but that is what it takes.  You wants something
 don't look to the government look to your God and your Savior and get out
 and pay the price.

 This is America!  If you do not like it here get out.  You are dead weight
 and you are holding those of us of who what REAL change, back.  Beleive me
 you have not experienced anything like a red blooded American that feels he
 is being wronged.  We will right what is wrong with this country and that
 includes those who have come here illegally.  I do not stand alone.  The
 surveys say 50 - 70% of America is behind Arizona.  There is a battle line
 being drawn.  What side will you be on?

 If you are on the side of La Raza you will loose.  This is America.  If you
 fly the Mexican flag expect trouble.

 As a Christian man I believe I am to live in peace with you as much as you
 will allow.

 My Bible says in Romans 12: 8 If it is possible, as far as it depends on
 you, live at peace with everyone..  That says it is up to you.  I want
 peace and revival in this land.  If you however want trouble that is on your
 head, and that is what you will get.




 
 Keith Smith

 --- On *Mon, 5/17/10, David da...@damnetwork.net* wrote:


 From: David da...@damnetwork.net

 Subject: Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
 To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
 Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:56 PM


 Why?  Serious inquiry.   From my brief reading, they don't do anything many
 other political groups do.

 David

 I find your lack of faith disturbing.
 --Darth Vader



 On May 17, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:

 
 
 David,
 
   Will you condemn and denounce the political groups La Raza and MEChA
 right now?
 
 -jmz
 
 
 
 
 
  On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:42 PM, David 
  da...@damnetwork.nethttp://mc/compose?to=da...@damnetwork.net
 wrote:
  Josh, I don't know you from Adam, but FU for calling me unAmerican.
 
  Yes, a personal attack.  Just as the comment I'm referring to is.
 
  David
  I find your lack of faith disturbing.
  --Darth Vader
 
 
 
  On May 17, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:
 
  
 Tuna,
  
   We were discussing macro economic trends that effect all linux
 developers as well as issues pertaining to Arizona and Linux.  Just because
 some deem the issue of illegal aliens to be out of bounds does not mean we
 terminate the discussion whenever we arrive at the subject.  Of course some
 people don't like it being discussed.  Those are the people who want to
 prevent action from being taken.  There are some of these people on this
 thread.  How can we discuss anything these days without addressing *what is
 right in front of our faces every day*!?
  
   The fact is everyone, this country is in deep doo doo.  It's not a
 laughing matter.  Anyone who was at the Sharpton rally will tell you that
 these people are violent and they most certainly are un-american.  Our state
 is broke, as are many other states.  Our ability to maintain our technology
 sector will rely heavily on our ability to stabilize ourselves politically.
 This means *your job*.  It might even be an opportunity to position
 ourselves profitably relative to California.  Discussion is absolutely
 critical to moving in the right direction.  Don't let people blow the issue
 out of proportion or try to turn it into some racial battleground.
  
   That being said, you may now return to complaining about COX
 service or whatever other stuff is 'on topic'.
  
 -jmz

Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Bryan O'Neal

JD - Good I am taking this in a very light hatred manor - I was hoping
it came across that way through email :)

As for the American empire and current illegal activity; it does not
justify the breaking of laws in any way - I was retorting to the
liberal (or conservative not sure which it was) curriculum regarding
the Mexican American war. The light hatred nature of my mildly
satirical retort is to show that it does not matter.  But you cut it
off too early by jumping to the point!!! - I was so going to go
another round indicating that all those Mexicans flooding across the
boarder would already have good American jobs if we just took the
whole country over 150 years ago insted of stoping where we did ;)
Now I have to let some one else fan the flames :)

The whole point I would like to make is that truth depends greatly on
your point of view. Don't recite rhetoric, think in a logical and
scientific manor, don't cloud the issue, define the problem and
develop a holistic and pragmatic approach.  But I may not have been
able to pull that argument off in an email forum any way so I suppose
cutting to the chase (which is something that I encourage) is to be
rewarded with a cessation of flame :)
At lest from me, at lest for now ;)

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:33 AM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:


 On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 21:41, Bryan O'Neal
 bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com wrote:

 Did you not even read you cited references?

 Not that I am complaining. I think it was a bold move that paid off
 very, very, well. But denying the nature of the conflict is like
 saying the Civil War was fought over slavery. It is fine for your Jr.
 High text book but when grow, otherwise intelligent, people try
 spouting that stuff they are either American idiots or just don't
 care.

 To quote from the wikipidia page you cited.

 The Mexican–American War was an armed conflict between the United
 States and Mexico from 1846 to 1848 in the wake of the 1845 U.S.
 annexation of Texas, which Mexico considered part of its territory
 despite the 1836 Texas Revolution.


 Bryan you make me laugh :)
 Placing aside your inflammatory 'American idiot' speak...lets say that for
 argument's sake that Mexico under duress sold parts of modern day America
 150+ years ago rather than surrender their entire country to the EVIL
 American empire.  Any affected people at the time would have become
 Americans or chosen to move to Mexico.
 Please explain this to me (perhaps off list) :)  How does something that
 happened generations before anyone alive was born justify breaking laws
 now?


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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Alex Dean


On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:



  Wake up and smell the coffee.


This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux.  Can this please be  
ended?  This thread has run its course.

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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Alex Dean a...@crackpot.org wrote:

 On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:


  Wake up and smell the coffee.


 This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux.  Can this please be ended?
  This thread has run its course.




   sure as soon as someone gives me an adequate explanation as to why SB1070
is called racist and MEChA is funded by our state university.


   -jmz



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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

the link you sent works, but none of the links on the page...
on a side note, any group can get started at ASU and receive funding. the
requirements are quite low.

Eric

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.comwrote:



 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Alex Dean a...@crackpot.org wrote:

 On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:


  Wake up and smell the coffee.


 This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux.  Can this please be ended?
  This thread has run its course.




sure as soon as someone gives me an adequate explanation as to why
 SB1070 is called racist and MEChA is funded by our state university.


-jmz



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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:04, Bryan O'Neal 
bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com wrote:


 The whole point I would like to make is that truth depends greatly on
 your point of view. Don't recite rhetoric, think in a logical and
 scientific manor, don't cloud the issue, define the problem and
 develop a holistic and pragmatic approach.  But I may not have been
 able to pull that argument off in an email forum any way so I suppose
 cutting to the chase (which is something that I encourage) is to be
 rewarded with a cessation of flame :)
 At lest from me, at lest for now ;)


I'd say replace 'opinion' with truth above and you're correct :)

Regardless of opinion the truth is America at this point in time is a
sovereign nation just like Mexico is.  One of reason we have laws is to
eliminate the 'my truth' versus your 'truth' issue.  The law is the end all
truth and we have a court system to wage that battle in.

We have reasonable immigration laws that are less strict than a lot of other
countries.
Those laws being broken (it's undeniable) and have not been enforced
federally like they should be most likely due to big business interests that
want to continue to exploit those people.

The unfortunate side effect of that exploitation is that a lot of Americans
have been displaced from their jobs and it has placed a tremendous burden on
State services (that we can't afford), it has lured a lot of people here
illegally, and now those people feel 'entitled' to be here because of the
lax enforcement in the past.  It is unfortunate that enforcing this law will
break up families in the same way it is unfortunate that other crime
enforcement breaks up families.

My hope is that somehow the pressure goes where it should be - ON MEXICO -
to make life there as attractive as it is here.  The Mexican people deserve
better there!  They shouldn't have to come here to have a fair chance at a
good life.

JD
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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

   clearly they took down some of the content on there, knowing that they
were under public scrutiny.

   the requirements are so low that you can receive funding even if your
group is vocally declaring war on the US.

   Brewer is trying to get this group removed, but she was called 'racist'
for removing 'ethnic studies programs' from ASU.


   -jmz


On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote:

 the link you sent works, but none of the links on the page...
 on a side note, any group can get started at ASU and receive funding. the
 requirements are quite low.

 Eric

 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.comwrote:



 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Alex Dean a...@crackpot.org wrote:

 On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:


  Wake up and smell the coffee.


 This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux.  Can this please be ended?
  This thread has run its course.




sure as soon as someone gives me an adequate explanation as to why
 SB1070 is called racist and MEChA is funded by our state university.


-jmz



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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:19, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Alex Dean a...@crackpot.org wrote:

 On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:


  Wake up and smell the coffee.


 This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux.  Can this please be ended?
  This thread has run its course.




sure as soon as someone gives me an adequate explanation as to why
 SB1070 is called racist and MEChA is funded by our state university.


-jmz


I don't think anyone here is qualified or in authority to address either of
those issues :)
I'm against state funded special interests whether it's right, left, or
racist.  Hopefully the current budget crisis will end funding of such
groups.
JD
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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Ariel Gold

I would be surprised if you DIDN'T see crime being in law enforcement, but
your anecdotal evidence, while shocking at first, isn't very compelling.
Just because people keep repeating talking points won't make me believe
them.

For example, you said Phoenix is the kidnap capital of the world...from
everything I can find I see it is number two in the world, after Mexico
City. Sure, nothing to brag about,but just an example. Cites:
http://www.project.org/info.php?recordID=158
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/02/12/mexican-drug-cartels-make-phoenix-2-in-world-for-kidnappings/
http://www.drugaddictiontreatment.com/addiction-news/drug-crimes/phoenix-number-two-kidnapping-capital-as-drug-cartel-wars-intensify/I
also see pepole in forums making a reference that it is number one in
the
world, but I don't see what kind of weight hhat has...here someone uses the
claim you made to try to sell karate classes:
http://phoenix.backpage.com/Classes/phoenix-is-the-kidnap-capital-of-the-world-see-you-at-arizona-traditional-karate/10020835

But honestly, not really afraid myself. I do feel sorry for you, and other
people if you are filled with fear. I don't think our policies should be
motivated by fear.

So you are seriously telling me the DOJ stats, cited by the conservative
CATO institute, are misinformation?

In terms of the rest of your email. I don't deny that there is a drug war (a
whole other can of worms) going on, but that doesn't mean that I want a
father to be deported when he gets pulled over at a traffic stop, when his
wife and kids have their papers, and he doesn't. Make him register. Make him
pay a fine. Give him a path to citizenship. Imagine how afraid the wife and
kids are,right now, wondering if the next time they get in the car their
father is going to be put hauled away.

I just am sick of what I see as people saying things aren't going well for
me (economically, career-wise, my love life, etc), so I may as well blame a
Mexican!

Immigrants Add Nearly $1 Billion Annually to Arizona's Economy
http://uanews.org/node/13529
Also, if the economy is bad, many undocumented workers will leave anyways!
It's simple supply and demand. this all the way from 2008:

Arizona Seeing Signs of Flight by Immigrants
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/12/us/12arizona.html

I agree we need comprehensive immigration reform. and if there's any upside
to sb1070 I hope it will be to help force the feds to take action.

2010/5/18 keith smith klsmith2...@yahoo.com

More misinformation. We have had 3 or 4 police officers killed by Illegals
in the recent past. Phoenix is the kidnap capital of the WORLD. Most of
the kidnaps, tortures, and murders are illegals.

I called ICE and they told me they estimate there are about 500,000
illegals in Phoenix. That means there is a MILLION! As a police officer I
saw plenty of violence - rape, knifings, shootings, and homicides
perpetrated by illegals.

Just because the crime rate is not rising means nothing. It means that if
25% of the homicides are perpetrated by illegals and nothing changes we have
the same crime level.

It is being reported that half of all homicides in LA are perpetrated by
Illegals.

Last year I talked with a Border Patrolman who worked on the border by
Nogales. He said it was no man's land. Are you hearing about the gun
battles on the border. No you are not. You have no idea what is happening
right here in our own community.

If you want the truth turn off your TV and start reading the blogs. The
real truth is our there.

Keith Smith

--- On *Mon, 5/17/10, Ariel Gold arielqg...@gmail.com* wrote:

From: Ariel Gold arielqg...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 11:40 PM

Misguided Fears of Crime Fuel Arizona Immigration Law

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/04/27/misguided-fears-of-crime-fuel-arizona-immigration-law/

2010/5/17 Bryan O'Neal
bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.comhttp://mc/compose?to=bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com

Indeed I did ;)

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Tim Noeding
tim.noed...@gmail.comhttp://mc/compose?to=tim.noed...@gmail.com
wrote:
Flame wars? Really? Did you all read that linux magazine article about
how
the editor thinks they are enjoyable reads?

from my DROID

On May 17, 2010 9:41 PM, Bryan Oapos;Neal
bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.comhttp://mc/compose?to=bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com
wrote:

Did you not even read you cited references? It is more like if I
called your mama fat beat you up

Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Craig White

On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 14:05 -0500, Alex Dean wrote:
 On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:
 
 
Wake up and smell the coffee.
 
 This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux.  Can this please be  
 ended?  This thread has run its course.

obviously you don't understand that JMZ has absolutely no respect for
the members of this group and somehow think that his insistent posting
of his political views somehow correlates to persuasion. It doesn't
persuade me to thinking anything except that they are abusive, obnoxious
and irrelevant. Keith to a lesser extent. 

Craig


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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:38 PM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:



 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:19, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Alex Dean a...@crackpot.org wrote:

 On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:


  Wake up and smell the coffee.


 This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux.  Can this please be ended?
  This thread has run its course.




sure as soon as someone gives me an adequate explanation as to why
 SB1070 is called racist and MEChA is funded by our state university.


-jmz


 I don't think anyone here is qualified or in authority to address either of
 those issues :)
 I'm against state funded special interests whether it's right, left, or
 racist.  Hopefully the current budget crisis will end funding of such
 groups.
 JD


  don't assume anything.  There was some foul play recently regarding the
organizer, Dan Smeriglio, of the June 5th event.  They tried to call him a
Neo Nazi.  Meanwhile he is having Alan Keyes and Ted Hayes speak.  I'm in
touch with him and he is a supporter of Israel.

  -jmz
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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Lyle Tuttle



At 12:47 PM 5/18/2010, you wrote:
So you are seriously telling me
the DOJ stats, cited by the conservative CATO institute, are
misinformation?
I don't know yet...I did copy that info to one of the section leaders in
the county Atty's office, and the immediate response was one of
surprise.and they should knowthey are doing some checking, and
will get back to me...the figures are not congruent with
theirs.

In terms of the
rest of your email. I don't deny that there is a drug war (a whole other
can of worms) going on, but that doesn't mean that I want a father to be
deported when he gets pulled over at a traffic stop, when his wife and
kids have their papers, and he doesn't.
Please, what other laws can a person break and get away with it?
Let's see, I need money, so I rob a bank--well, that's where the money
was.whatever you do, don't send me to jail -- that would break up my
family!
Make him
register. Make him pay a fine. Give him a path to citizenship. Imagine
how afraid the wife and kids are,right now, wondering if the next time
they get in the car their father is going to be put hauled
away.
What about the poor families of those in prison for breaking the
law..actions have consequences. And what about those
law-abiding people who have stood in line to come to the USA legally - do
we just line-jump them?

Also, if the
economy is bad, many undocumented workers will leave anyways! It's simple
supply and demand. this all the way from 2008:
Yes, thank God they passed a law to put some heat on unscrupulous
employers. 
I agree we need
comprehensive immigration reform. and if there's any upside to sb1070 I
hope it will be to help force the feds to take
action.
Well, why do you think they passed that law?
lyle, trying to stay out of this one...G...but
failing


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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?


I think you missed my point.  My Point : Just because there is as much crime 
last year as this year does not mean there isn't a problem.    

So there might not be an increase in crime in LA.  Does that mean that 1/2 the 
homicides in LA being from Illegals is not important.

The article you put a link to said there is no increase in crime.  So if my 
neighbor was arrested last year for beating his wife and was arrested again 
this year for beating his wife there would be no change in the crime level.  So 
do we solve the problem or say, hay crime has leveled off, lets go get a beer 
and let my neighbor's wife deal with it?

So Phoenix is number two and Mexico City is number one.  I still want crime to 
be reduced.

Also if you are caught here illegally you must be remove back to your country.  
That is the law.  No rewards.  If we reward them then we must reward the guy 
that sole your car.  Have you had a car stolen?  Everyone I know has had a car 
stolen while living in Phoenix.  I was here 90 days and they stole my truck.  
It was paid for and I had liability insurance.   The next day I was $2500 
poorer and had a $300/mo car payment.  Not to mention my insurance went up 
because I now had full coverage on a new car.  I'll almost bet you my truck was 
taken to Mexico by an illegal. Would take too much to explain why I believe 
that.

Just because crime stats are flat does not mean the crime being committed is 
not bad.

Bet you did not know that the labor and delivery department of the Bisbee 
hospital had to be closed.  Why?  Illegals crossing the boarder to have their 
babies.  Now if you live in Bisbee and your wife goes into labor what do you 
do?  Drive 30 miles to Sierra Vista.  Tell me how that is a win-win situation.

What about Barnet?  Was that fair?  What about Rob Krenz who was killed outside 
of Douglas?  The Cochise County Sheriff said crime has not risen in his county 
over the last 10 years.  Tell that to Krenz's family.  

Douglas has been to main point of entry for over 10 years.  It is in Cochise 
County.  Tell that to my father who had to leave Douglas because the town was 
over run with illegals.  

Hey the crime level might have remained constant however there is a Border 
Patrol Agent on every corner.  It has become a militarized zone.  650 Border 
Patrol Agents in a town that only has a population of 20,000 people.

Hey but crime has not risen!
   




Keith Smith

--- On Tue, 5/18/10, Ariel Gold arielqg...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Ariel Gold arielqg...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 12:45 PM

I would be surprised if you DIDN'T see crime being in law enforcement, but your 
anecdotal evidence, while shocking at first, isn't very compelling. Just 
because people keep repeating talking points won't make me believe them. 




For example, you said Phoenix is the kidnap capital of the world...from 
everything I can find I see it is number two in the world, after Mexico City. 
Sure, nothing to brag about,but just an example. Cites: 
http://www.project.org/info.php?recordID=158 
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/02/12/mexican-drug-cartels-make-phoenix-2-in-world-for-kidnappings/
 
http://www.drugaddictiontreatment.com/addiction-news/drug-crimes/phoenix-number-two-kidnapping-capital-as-drug-cartel-wars-intensify/
 I also see pepole in forums making a reference that it is number one in the 
world, but I don't see what kind of weight hhat has...here someone uses the 
claim you made to try to sell karate classes: 
http://phoenix.backpage.com/Classes/phoenix-is-the-kidnap-capital-of-the-world-see-you-at-arizona-traditional-karate/10020835 
   




But honestly, not really afraid myself. I do feel sorry for you, and
other people if you are filled with fear. I don't think our policies
should be motivated by fear.


So you are seriously telling me the DOJ stats, cited by the conservative CATO 
institute, are misinformation?


In terms of the rest of your email. I don't deny that there is a drug war (a 
whole other can of worms) going on, but that doesn't mean that I want a father 
to be deported when he gets pulled over at a traffic stop, when his wife and 
kids have their papers, and he doesn't. Make him register. Make him pay a fine. 
Give him a path to citizenship. Imagine how afraid the wife and kids are,right 
now, wondering if the next time they get in the car their father is going to be 
put hauled away.




I just am sick of what I see as people saying things aren't going well for me 
(economically, career-wise, my love life, etc), so I may as well blame a 
Mexican! 


Immigrants Add Nearly $1 Billion Annually to Arizona's 
Economy
http://uanews.org/node/13529


Also, if the economy is bad, many undocumented workers will leave anyways! It's 
simple supply and demand. this all the way from 2008:

Arizona

Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Bryan O'Neal

I agree - what I would like to see is not to allow more immigration
but allow more guest workers. No rites, heavily taxed, but documented
and working.

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:30 PM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:

 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:04, Bryan O'Neal
 bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com wrote:

 The whole point I would like to make is that truth depends greatly on
 your point of view. Don't recite rhetoric, think in a logical and
 scientific manor, don't cloud the issue, define the problem and
 develop a holistic and pragmatic approach.  But I may not have been
 able to pull that argument off in an email forum any way so I suppose
 cutting to the chase (which is something that I encourage) is to be
 rewarded with a cessation of flame :)
 At lest from me, at lest for now ;)


 I'd say replace 'opinion' with truth above and you're correct :)

 Regardless of opinion the truth is America at this point in time is a
 sovereign nation just like Mexico is.  One of reason we have laws is to
 eliminate the 'my truth' versus your 'truth' issue.  The law is the end all
 truth and we have a court system to wage that battle in.

 We have reasonable immigration laws that are less strict than a lot of other
 countries.
 Those laws being broken (it's undeniable) and have not been enforced
 federally like they should be most likely due to big business interests that
 want to continue to exploit those people.

 The unfortunate side effect of that exploitation is that a lot of Americans
 have been displaced from their jobs and it has placed a tremendous burden on
 State services (that we can't afford), it has lured a lot of people here
 illegally, and now those people feel 'entitled' to be here because of the
 lax enforcement in the past.  It is unfortunate that enforcing this law will
 break up families in the same way it is unfortunate that other crime
 enforcement breaks up families.

 My hope is that somehow the pressure goes where it should be - ON MEXICO -
 to make life there as attractive as it is here.  The Mexican people deserve
 better there!  They shouldn't have to come here to have a fair chance at a
 good life.

 JD

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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 13:25, keith smith klsmith2...@yahoo.com wrote:


 I think you missed my point.  My Point : Just because there is as much
 crime last year as this year does not mean there isn't a problem.


It's a sad truth that few people are ever swayed by logic when the issue is
emotional and vice-versa.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/15056/
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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?



Even with a 10% unemployment rate?  That is the government number.  It is being 
reported that the real unemplyement number is closer to 19%.  And there are 
those who are under employed.

Also there is no proof we need these laborers.  Just because a farmer says he 
can't find labor it might be true.  What we might need is to re-invent 
farming.  We might need some capital investment and just maybe Americans will 
take these jobs.

I seem to recall Tyson saying there was a shortage of labor so they had to hire 
illegals.  After a raid and removal of maybe 300 illegals, as I recall, Tyson 
found willing employees just a few miles away in a back community that had high 
unemployment and had been denied jobs.

What did it take to get those AMERICAN citizens into those jobs?  A few buses 
and a few more dollars and hour.

So do we really need guest workers and those H1B Visa folks?  I need to see a 
dozen studies done by disinterested researchers before I can make a decision 
either way. 

Just because Bill Gates and a few farmers in Yuma say it is so does not mean it 
is.





Keith Smith

--- On Tue, 5/18/10, Bryan O'Neal bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com wrote:

From: Bryan O'Neal bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com
Subject: Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 1:44 PM

I agree - what I would like to see is not to allow more immigration
but allow more guest workers. No rites, heavily taxed, but documented
and working.

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:30 PM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:

 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:04, Bryan O'Neal
 bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com wrote:

 The whole point I would like to make is that truth depends greatly on
 your point of view. Don't recite rhetoric, think in a logical and
 scientific manor, don't cloud the issue, define the problem and
 develop a holistic and pragmatic approach.  But I may not have been
 able to pull that argument off in an email forum any way so I suppose
 cutting to the chase (which is something that I encourage) is to be
 rewarded with a cessation of flame :)
 At lest from me, at lest for now ;)


 I'd say replace 'opinion' with truth above and you're correct :)

 Regardless of opinion the truth is America at this point in time is a
 sovereign nation just like Mexico is.  One of reason we have laws is to
 eliminate the 'my truth' versus your 'truth' issue.  The law is the end all
 truth and we have a court system to wage that battle in.

 We have reasonable immigration laws that are less strict than a lot of other
 countries.
 Those laws being broken (it's undeniable) and have not been enforced
 federally like they should be most likely due to big business interests that
 want to continue to exploit those people.

 The unfortunate side effect of that exploitation is that a lot of Americans
 have been displaced from their jobs and it has placed a tremendous burden on
 State services (that we can't afford), it has lured a lot of people here
 illegally, and now those people feel 'entitled' to be here because of the
 lax enforcement in the past.  It is unfortunate that enforcing this law will
 break up families in the same way it is unfortunate that other crime
 enforcement breaks up families.

 My hope is that somehow the pressure goes where it should be - ON MEXICO -
 to make life there as attractive as it is here.  The Mexican people deserve
 better there!  They shouldn't have to come here to have a fair chance at a
 good life.

 JD

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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread David

- Original Message -
From: keith smith klsmith2...@yahoo.com
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 10:03:19 AM
Subject: Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

They teach hate and AZTLAN. They teach that this is their land - Mexico.
That is unAmerican and if I might say so, racist. What does La Raza
stand for? The Race!

Hmmm...I keep hearing that.   I also hear it stands for The Family.  I guess 
context matters.

If I as a white man was to start a group called The Race or something
similar like the Aryan Nation which I denounce right here right now, I
would be labeled a racist.

Watch this video and tell me La Raza is not a problem -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGqPo5ofk0s

Yup, I can say he's a problem.

Tell me we are not traveling full speed towards a race war?

Um...welcome to the world.  There've been race wars ever since people noticed 
differences in appearance.

Instead of embracing the American dream these groups poison young minds
which will ultimately destroy lives.

Much like some other groups I could name.

This is America! I'm tired of the bellyaching and all the poor me
stuff. This is the land of opportunity. Don't expect a handout and don't
expect me to pay our bills. Get up off your lazy behind and make
something happen.

Wah.

I worked midnight shift as a police officer so I could attend college
during the day. It was hard but that is what it takes. You wants
something don't look to the government look to your God and your Savior
and get out and pay the price.

Good for you.  Except for the God part.  I'm more of a belief-in-self kinda guy.

This is America! If you do not like it here get out. You are dead weight
and you are holding those of us of who what REAL change, back. Beleive
me you have not experienced anything like a red blooded American that
feels he is being wronged. We will right what is wrong with this country
and that includes those who have come here illegally. I do not stand
alone. The surveys say 50 - 70% of America is behind Arizona. There is a
battle line being drawn. What side will you be on?

Actually, those of us who wanted change are mostly getting it.  We voted this 
guy into office...by 
a HUGE majority.  A mandate, if you will.  Also, A very large portion of the 
country liked slavery
and the thought of black people as less than a white person.  Didn't make it 
right. 
OR Constitutional.

If you are on the side of La Raza you will loose. This is America. If
you fly the Mexican flag expect trouble.

I'm against any group whose stated core principals include racism, elitism, 
exclusionism, hate,
intolerance, or the promotion of Windows based solutions (hows *that* for an 
On-topic attempt?).

I'm also smart enough to realize that a few bad apples does *not* make the 
group. If I wasn't, I'd
have to oppose most forms of religion (Church of the Subgenius excluded), the 
Teabaggers, most Conservative
groups, some liberal groups, and, of course, anything put out by SCO.

As a Christian man I believe I am to live in peace with you as much as
you will allow.

My Bible says in Romans 12: 8 If it is possible, as far as it depends
on you, live at peace with everyone.. That says it is up to you. I want
peace and revival in this land. If you however want trouble that is on
your head, and that is what you will get.

Blah, blah, blah.  I don't recall Jesus (the deity, not the common spanish 
name) ever saying anything even 
*close* to that.  It sounds like your intolerant religion is itching for a 
fight. 

 Keith Smith

--- On Mon, 5/17/10, David da...@damnetwork.net wrote:

From: David da...@damnetwork.net
Subject: Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 9:56 PM

Why? Serious inquiry. From my brief reading, they don't do anything many
other political groups do.

David

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
--Darth Vader

On May 17, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:

 David,

 Will you condemn and denounce the political groups La Raza and MEChA
 right now?

 -jmz

 On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:42 PM, David  da...@damnetwork.net  wrote:
 Josh, I don't know you from Adam, but FU for calling me unAmerican.

 Yes, a personal attack. Just as the comment I'm referring to is.

 David
 I find your lack of faith disturbing.
 --Darth Vader

 On May 17, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:

  Tuna,

  We were discussing macro economic trends that effect all linux
  developers as well as issues pertaining to Arizona and Linux. Just
  because some deem the issue of illegal aliens to be out of bounds
  does not mean we terminate the discussion whenever we arrive at the
  subject. Of course some people don't like it being discussed. Those
  are the people who want to prevent action from being taken. There
  are some of these people on this thread. How can we discuss

Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 13:44, Bryan O'Neal 
bryan.on...@theonealandassociates.com wrote:

 I agree - what I would like to see is not to allow more immigration
 but allow more guest workers. No rites, heavily taxed, but documented
 and working.


This covers the above: http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/15056/
I would like to see the companies here luring people here illegally to pay
all of the fees and other associated monies to sponsor those people to
become legal American citizens.  They would have to continually do that over
and over since once those people become American citizens they won't
tolerated being exploited.

JD
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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread joe


While I agree that it is generally preferable to try to keep this forum as
focused as possible on primarily Linux related topics ... on the other
hand as long as the subject line clearly states OT ... then why not just
let it run its course.

Seems to me that the main thing is to just make sure that OT is added to
the subject line and avoid replying to anything off-topic if OT is not
in the subject line. How difficult is that to do?

I appreciate the insightful comments that so many astute plug members have
(on more topics than just Linux).

Does anyone here really disagree with the concept of vigorously enforcing
the laws of the land?

Someone wrote this, and I totally agree:
 We have reasonable immigration laws ...
 [but] ... laws are being broken (it's undeniable) and have not been
 enforced federally ...

 ... a lot of Americans have been displaced from their jobs
 and it has placed a tremendous burden on State services (that
 we can't afford), it has lured a lot of people here illegally
 and now those people [wrongly] feel 'entitled' to be here because
 of lax enforcement in the past.  It is unfortunate that enforcing
 this law will break up families in the same way it is unfortunate
 that other crime enforcement breaks up families.

Please visit this link: http://www.upquick.com/america



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Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Lyle Tuttle



At 01:02 PM 5/18/2010, you wrote:
At 12:47 PM 5/18/2010, you
wrote:
So you are seriously telling me
the DOJ stats, cited by the conservative CATO institute, are
misinformation?
I don't know yet...I did copy that info to one of the section leaders in
the county Atty's office, and the immediate response was one of
surprise.and they should knowthey are doing some checking, and
will get back to me...the figures are not congruent with
theirs.
They think this is better infoI have not looked yet.

http://www.cis.org/Announcement/AZ-Immigration-SB1070


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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

La Raza started as a down home reference for family, yes you are right.  Today 
it has taken on another meaning.  Ask Isabel Garcia.

Yes you and a lot of other people voted in Obama.  Most have remorse now that 
they know he lied.  I'm guessing he will not run again because he is unwilling 
to provide proof that he legally qualifies to be president.  That is another 
law that will come out of the next Arizona Legislature - One must provide proof 
they are legally qualified for the position they are running for.  If not then 
they will not be added to the ballet.

Even if he does run he will be voted out.  Hopefully we will not get another 
Bush or Obama.  Both bad if you ask me.  We need REAL leadership!

You say Blah, blah, blah.  I don't 
recall Jesus (the deity, not the common spanish name) ever saying 
anything even *close* to that..

Read Romans
 12: 8 for yourself.  It is right there in the Bible.

And you say It sounds like your intolerant 
religion is itching for a fight..  Not at all, I stated I wanted peace and 
revival.  However I will stand my ground.  I'm not looking for a fight and I 
will not back down either.

Maybe we should switch places with Mexico.  They move here and we move there.  
No switching after that.  I'd bet in 5 years America would look like Mexico and 
in 10 years Mexico would look like America (a lot to accomplish).  And we would 
have the same problems.  Illegals wanting to come to the New America because it 
would be prospering. 

Why can't Mexico build a place where their people want to stay?




Keith Smith

--- On Tue, 5/18/10, David da...@damnetwork.net wrote:

From: David da...@damnetwork.net
Subject: Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 1:48 PM



- Original Message -
From: keith smith klsmith2...@yahoo.com
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 10:03:19 AM
Subject: Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

They teach hate and AZTLAN. They teach that this is their land - Mexico.
That is unAmerican and if I might say so, racist. What does La Raza
stand for? The Race!

Hmmm...I keep hearing that.   I also hear it stands for The Family.  I guess 
context matters.

If I as a white man was to start a group called The Race or something
similar like the Aryan Nation which I denounce right here right now, I
would be labeled a racist.

Watch this video and tell me La Raza is not a problem -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGqPo5ofk0s

Yup, I can say he's a problem.

Tell me we are not traveling full speed towards a race war?

Um...welcome to the world.  There've been race wars ever since people noticed 
differences in appearance.

Instead of embracing the American dream these groups poison young minds
which will ultimately destroy lives.

Much like some other groups I could name.

This is America! I'm tired of the bellyaching and all the poor me
stuff. This is the land of opportunity. Don't expect a handout and don't
expect me to pay our bills. Get up off your lazy behind and make
something happen.

Wah.

I worked midnight shift as a police officer so I could attend college
during the day. It was hard but that is what it takes. You wants
something don't look to the government look to your God and your Savior
and get out and pay the price.

Good for you.  Except for the God part.  I'm more of a belief-in-self kinda guy.

This is America! If you do not like it here get out. You are dead weight
and you are holding those of us of who what REAL change, back. Beleive
me you have not experienced anything like a red blooded American that
feels he is being wronged. We will right what is wrong with this country
and that includes those who have come here illegally. I do not stand
alone. The surveys say 50 - 70% of America is behind Arizona. There is a
battle line being drawn. What side will you be on?

Actually, those of us who wanted change are mostly getting it.  We voted this 
guy into office...by 
a HUGE majority.  A mandate, if you will.  Also, A very large portion of the 
country liked slavery
and the thought of black people as less than a white person.  Didn't make it 
right. 
OR Constitutional.


If you are on the side of La Raza you will loose. This is America. If
you fly the Mexican flag expect trouble.

I'm against any group whose stated core principals include racism, elitism, 
exclusionism, hate,
intolerance, or the promotion of Windows based solutions (hows *that* for an 
On-topic attempt?).

I'm also smart enough to realize that a few bad apples does *not* make the 
group. If I wasn't, I'd
have to oppose most forms of religion (Church of the Subgenius excluded), the 
Teabaggers, most Conservative
groups, some liberal groups, and, of course, anything put out by SCO.

As a Christian man I believe I am to live in peace with you as much as
you will allow.

My Bible says in Romans

Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

Excellent reference!

Keith Smith

--- On Tue, 5/18/10, Lyle Tuttle l.tut...@cox.net wrote:

From: Lyle Tuttle l.tut...@cox.net
Subject: Re: OT ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 2:24 PM

At 01:02 PM 5/18/2010, you wrote:

At 12:47 PM 5/18/2010, you
wrote:

So you are seriously telling me
the DOJ stats, cited by the conservative CATO institute, are
misinformation?

I don't know yet...I did copy that info to one of the section leaders in
the county Atty's office, and the immediate response was one of
surprise.and they should knowthey are doing some checking, and
will get back to me...the figures are not congruent with
theirs.

They think this is better infoI have not looked yet.

http://www.cis.org/Announcement/AZ-Immigration-SB1070 

-Inline Attachment Follows-

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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Technomage


On 5/17/10 4:13 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:



  you might see some kind of short term deflation, but any substantial 
deflation would break us.  Any time you have debt, then deflation 
makes that debt harder to pay.  Not only would it be tragic for 
Americans on a personal level, but on a state and federal level it 
would be equally disastrous.  eg. What would happen if everyone's 
salary were halved next week?  Massive default on mortgages, housing 
inventory increases, values go down, etc.  I would think that 
deflation might be beneficial, I just don't think its an option 
(either financially or politically).  Most likely they will just print 
their way out of this, and destroy the dollar in the process.


  -jmz

I have been reading through this and as someone who has an accounting 
background (thank you GCC),
you all have not mentioned one important fact: the rate at which 
deflation could (or would) occur.


A low rate (say under 2% would have minimal effects on the economy in 
the very short term, it would
start making life a litte more difficult with time, but not 
substantially so. IF, however, the rate if deflation went up
or varied wildly over the long term, yeah,, I could see the above 
scenarios coming to pass.


The biggest problem with have in this country is a lack of personal 
responsibility for ones own actions
(including incurring debt). we need to be a lot more responsible and we 
need to force the states into
doing so at their level. 5 years ago, Arizona had 2 billion in excess 
cash set aside (call it a rainy day fund).
the politicians couldn't leave well enough alone and now here we are, 
suffering a 2.1 billion dollar shortfall
for this year alone. California was living on borrowed time ever since 
gray davis started as governor.


Personally, I have gotten rid of all my credit cards (can't have them 
anyone living on a disability income),
I am paying down any debts I have left (just over $3,000 at this point) 
and will be debt free in 3 years.


I view credit as nothing more than a company selling you the money you 
borrow (debt) and then charging you

monthly to be able to use that money. it isn't yours. its a legal scam IMHO

anyway, my point is this: deflation might actually be a good thing for 
this country, if and only if, it can

be held to a minimum level for as long as possible.

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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

As the Austrians point out, deflation in real terms (not inflicted by the
Federal Reserve) is actually a result of the innovation of the free market
and the creation of wealth (as individuals create wealth, things become more
affordable... think of the cost of a brand new technology, like DDR3, as
time progresses, it comes down).
So, you are right, we should experience a general deflation as innovation
creates wealth, making things more affordable for all. (this includes things
like healthcare).

Eric

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Technomage technomage.ha...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 5/17/10 4:13 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:



  you might see some kind of short term deflation, but any substantial
 deflation would break us.  Any time you have debt, then deflation makes that
 debt harder to pay.  Not only would it be tragic for Americans on a personal
 level, but on a state and federal level it would be equally disastrous.  eg.
 What would happen if everyone's salary were halved next week?  Massive
 default on mortgages, housing inventory increases, values go down, etc.  I
 would think that deflation might be beneficial, I just don't think its an
 option (either financially or politically).  Most likely they will just
 print their way out of this, and destroy the dollar in the process.

  -jmz

  I have been reading through this and as someone who has an accounting
 background (thank you GCC),
 you all have not mentioned one important fact: the rate at which deflation
 could (or would) occur.

 A low rate (say under 2% would have minimal effects on the economy in the
 very short term, it would
 start making life a litte more difficult with time, but not substantially
 so. IF, however, the rate if deflation went up
 or varied wildly over the long term, yeah,, I could see the above scenarios
 coming to pass.

 The biggest problem with have in this country is a lack of personal
 responsibility for ones own actions
 (including incurring debt). we need to be a lot more responsible and we
 need to force the states into
 doing so at their level. 5 years ago, Arizona had 2 billion in excess cash
 set aside (call it a rainy day fund).
 the politicians couldn't leave well enough alone and now here we are,
 suffering a 2.1 billion dollar shortfall
 for this year alone. California was living on borrowed time ever since gray
 davis started as governor.

 Personally, I have gotten rid of all my credit cards (can't have them
 anyone living on a disability income),
 I am paying down any debts I have left (just over $3,000 at this point) and
 will be debt free in 3 years.

 I view credit as nothing more than a company selling you the money you
 borrow (debt) and then charging you
 monthly to be able to use that money. it isn't yours. its a legal scam IMHO

 anyway, my point is this: deflation might actually be a good thing for this
 country, if and only if, it can
 be held to a minimum level for as long as possible.


 ---
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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

  Deflation is generally not a bad thing for people who save or people who
lend (unless the deflation forces a default).  It's a bad thing for people
who borrow.

  -jmz


On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote:

 As the Austrians point out, deflation in real terms (not inflicted by the
 Federal Reserve) is actually a result of the innovation of the free market
 and the creation of wealth (as individuals create wealth, things become more
 affordable... think of the cost of a brand new technology, like DDR3, as
 time progresses, it comes down).
 So, you are right, we should experience a general deflation as innovation
 creates wealth, making things more affordable for all. (this includes things
 like healthcare).

 Eric


 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Technomage technomage.ha...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 5/17/10 4:13 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:



  you might see some kind of short term deflation, but any substantial
 deflation would break us.  Any time you have debt, then deflation makes that
 debt harder to pay.  Not only would it be tragic for Americans on a personal
 level, but on a state and federal level it would be equally disastrous.  eg.
 What would happen if everyone's salary were halved next week?  Massive
 default on mortgages, housing inventory increases, values go down, etc.  I
 would think that deflation might be beneficial, I just don't think its an
 option (either financially or politically).  Most likely they will just
 print their way out of this, and destroy the dollar in the process.

  -jmz

  I have been reading through this and as someone who has an accounting
 background (thank you GCC),
 you all have not mentioned one important fact: the rate at which deflation
 could (or would) occur.

 A low rate (say under 2% would have minimal effects on the economy in the
 very short term, it would
 start making life a litte more difficult with time, but not substantially
 so. IF, however, the rate if deflation went up
 or varied wildly over the long term, yeah,, I could see the above
 scenarios coming to pass.

 The biggest problem with have in this country is a lack of personal
 responsibility for ones own actions
 (including incurring debt). we need to be a lot more responsible and we
 need to force the states into
 doing so at their level. 5 years ago, Arizona had 2 billion in excess cash
 set aside (call it a rainy day fund).
 the politicians couldn't leave well enough alone and now here we are,
 suffering a 2.1 billion dollar shortfall
 for this year alone. California was living on borrowed time ever since
 gray davis started as governor.

 Personally, I have gotten rid of all my credit cards (can't have them
 anyone living on a disability income),
 I am paying down any debts I have left (just over $3,000 at this point)
 and will be debt free in 3 years.

 I view credit as nothing more than a company selling you the money you
 borrow (debt) and then charging you
 monthly to be able to use that money. it isn't yours. its a legal scam
 IMHO

 anyway, my point is this: deflation might actually be a good thing for
 this country, if and only if, it can
 be held to a minimum level for as long as possible.



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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

The deflation with which you are referring is the reverse of devaluation of
the dollar through poor monetary policy inflected upon us by the concept of
central banking. And I would agree with you with the asterisk that any
change of the money supply by central banking is bad for everyone, although
not as bad for a group of individuals.

Eric

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.com wrote:



   Deflation is generally not a bad thing for people who save or people who
 lend (unless the deflation forces a default).  It's a bad thing for people
 who borrow.

   -jmz


 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote:

 As the Austrians point out, deflation in real terms (not inflicted by the
 Federal Reserve) is actually a result of the innovation of the free market
 and the creation of wealth (as individuals create wealth, things become more
 affordable... think of the cost of a brand new technology, like DDR3, as
 time progresses, it comes down).
 So, you are right, we should experience a general deflation as innovation
 creates wealth, making things more affordable for all. (this includes things
 like healthcare).

 Eric


 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Technomage 
 technomage.ha...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 5/17/10 4:13 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:



  you might see some kind of short term deflation, but any substantial
 deflation would break us.  Any time you have debt, then deflation makes 
 that
 debt harder to pay.  Not only would it be tragic for Americans on a 
 personal
 level, but on a state and federal level it would be equally disastrous.  
 eg.
 What would happen if everyone's salary were halved next week?  Massive
 default on mortgages, housing inventory increases, values go down, etc.  I
 would think that deflation might be beneficial, I just don't think its an
 option (either financially or politically).  Most likely they will just
 print their way out of this, and destroy the dollar in the process.

  -jmz

  I have been reading through this and as someone who has an accounting
 background (thank you GCC),
 you all have not mentioned one important fact: the rate at which
 deflation could (or would) occur.

 A low rate (say under 2% would have minimal effects on the economy in the
 very short term, it would
 start making life a litte more difficult with time, but not substantially
 so. IF, however, the rate if deflation went up
 or varied wildly over the long term, yeah,, I could see the above
 scenarios coming to pass.

 The biggest problem with have in this country is a lack of personal
 responsibility for ones own actions
 (including incurring debt). we need to be a lot more responsible and we
 need to force the states into
 doing so at their level. 5 years ago, Arizona had 2 billion in excess
 cash set aside (call it a rainy day fund).
 the politicians couldn't leave well enough alone and now here we are,
 suffering a 2.1 billion dollar shortfall
 for this year alone. California was living on borrowed time ever since
 gray davis started as governor.

 Personally, I have gotten rid of all my credit cards (can't have them
 anyone living on a disability income),
 I am paying down any debts I have left (just over $3,000 at this point)
 and will be debt free in 3 years.

 I view credit as nothing more than a company selling you the money you
 borrow (debt) and then charging you
 monthly to be able to use that money. it isn't yours. its a legal scam
 IMHO

 anyway, my point is this: deflation might actually be a good thing for
 this country, if and only if, it can
 be held to a minimum level for as long as possible.




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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 15:13, Technomage technomage.ha...@gmail.comwrote:


 The biggest problem with have in this country is a lack of personal
 responsibility for ones own actions (including incurring debt). we need to
 be a lot more responsible and we need to force the states into doing so at
 their level.


I couldn't agree more.  My wife drags her deadbeat high school friends into
our lives.. they have an entitlement mentality and it dives me crazy.  They
can justify getting a new car when they can't afford the one they already
have and when things get rough just declare bankruptcy or run from the repo
man as long as they can.  These people can get cars/motorcycles/etc but
can't pay their mortgage, repay personal loans, or keep promises they make.
We've loan them money to keep their kids from being homeless but do they
change any of the behavior that got them into that position?   No.  Within a
year they're back again with their hand out.
If they were willing to live within their means they might prosper but
they're always trying take more than they're willing to work for.  It all
falls to poor character in my opinion and a selfish attitude; I don't see it
getting better.



 5 years ago, Arizona had 2 billion in excess cash set aside (call it a
 rainy day fund). the politicians couldn't leave well enough alone and now
 here we are, suffering a 2.1 billion dollar shortfall for this year alone.
 California was living on borrowed time ever since gray davis started as
 governor.



At least Arizona is trying to do something now.  I'm sure we could make our
state government 20% more efficient if we wanted to but even that would cost
money.



 Personally, I have gotten rid of all my credit cards (can't have them
 anyone living on a disability income), I am paying down any debts I have
 left (just over $3,000 at this point) and will be debt free in 3 years.


We did the same thing.  Last year when my business was finally debt free I
felt a tremendous sense of relief!  For 8K in debt I easily paid $30K by the
time it was all paid off.  Until it was paid off I felt like a slave to the
credit card companies.  Theres nothing worse than working with clients you
can't stand and doing jobs when you'd rather be sleeping but I had that
monkey on my back.



 I view credit as nothing more than a company selling you the money you
 borrow (debt) and then charging you monthly to be able to use that money. it
 isn't yours. its a legal scam IMHO


Oh but we're so addicted to instant gratification :)  Credit does allow
people to have things they could never save up for but credit card companies
have really set up the less intelligent people in the world for failure.  I
doubt the new laws will change that much.  The young know everything so good
luck teaching them that it's better to work for what they want!


 anyway, my point is this: deflation might actually be a good thing for this
 country, if and only if, it can be held to a minimum level for as long as
 possible.

 I'd prefer deflation to inflation.. it mean the dollars in my pocket are
worth more :)
Inflation works the other way.. the harder I work the less my money is
worth.
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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

This reminds me of the book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
I worked at a country club to put myself through college. I'd say about 1/2
of the members group up dirt poor. So poor, 1-2 families shared run down
studio apartments. They worked hard, saved, and repeated. Now they are
extremely wealthy. They maintain those principles. They pay cash for cars,
houses, boats. They save for things they want, working for them.
Poor people remain poor because of their habits like JD lists. Its precisely
why things like welfare don't work. It isn't lack of money why these people
are poor.
To bring this back to the original topic, the majority of illegal
immigrants in this country are hard working individuals willing to work and
save. The problem isn't illegal immigration. Its that immigration is
illegal.

resume the flame war.

Eric

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 3:37 PM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:


 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 15:13, Technomage technomage.ha...@gmail.comwrote:


 The biggest problem with have in this country is a lack of personal
 responsibility for ones own actions (including incurring debt). we need to
 be a lot more responsible and we need to force the states into doing so at
 their level.


 I couldn't agree more.  My wife drags her deadbeat high school friends into
 our lives.. they have an entitlement mentality and it dives me crazy.  They
 can justify getting a new car when they can't afford the one they already
 have and when things get rough just declare bankruptcy or run from the repo
 man as long as they can.  These people can get cars/motorcycles/etc but
 can't pay their mortgage, repay personal loans, or keep promises they make.
 We've loan them money to keep their kids from being homeless but do they
 change any of the behavior that got them into that position?   No.  Within a
 year they're back again with their hand out.
 If they were willing to live within their means they might prosper but
 they're always trying take more than they're willing to work for.  It all
 falls to poor character in my opinion and a selfish attitude; I don't see it
 getting better.



 5 years ago, Arizona had 2 billion in excess cash set aside (call it a
 rainy day fund). the politicians couldn't leave well enough alone and now
 here we are, suffering a 2.1 billion dollar shortfall for this year alone.
 California was living on borrowed time ever since gray davis started as
 governor.



 At least Arizona is trying to do something now.  I'm sure we could make our
 state government 20% more efficient if we wanted to but even that would cost
 money.



 Personally, I have gotten rid of all my credit cards (can't have them
 anyone living on a disability income), I am paying down any debts I have
 left (just over $3,000 at this point) and will be debt free in 3 years.


 We did the same thing.  Last year when my business was finally debt free I
 felt a tremendous sense of relief!  For 8K in debt I easily paid $30K by the
 time it was all paid off.  Until it was paid off I felt like a slave to the
 credit card companies.  Theres nothing worse than working with clients you
 can't stand and doing jobs when you'd rather be sleeping but I had that
 monkey on my back.



 I view credit as nothing more than a company selling you the money you
 borrow (debt) and then charging you monthly to be able to use that money. it
 isn't yours. its a legal scam IMHO


 Oh but we're so addicted to instant gratification :)  Credit does allow
 people to have things they could never save up for but credit card companies
 have really set up the less intelligent people in the world for failure.  I
 doubt the new laws will change that much.  The young know everything so good
 luck teaching them that it's better to work for what they want!


 anyway, my point is this: deflation might actually be a good thing for
 this country, if and only if, it can be held to a minimum level for as long
 as possible.

 I'd prefer deflation to inflation.. it mean the dollars in my pocket are
 worth more :)
 Inflation works the other way.. the harder I work the less my money is
 worth.



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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Donn

Come on, give it a rest or take it off-line already!


-- 
Donn
There is a very fine line between hobby and mental illness.
-- Dave Barry
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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 15:45, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote:

 The problem isn't illegal immigration. Its that immigration is illegal.


Sorry maybe you didn't know about this but... immigration is not illegal!
Foreign born citizens become legal American citizens every single day.

Its just that these particular people choose not to go through the process
to become legal American citizens.  The other possibility is that they're
not eligible or don't want fulfill the requirements.
Generally, to be eligible for naturalization you must:

   - Be age 18 or older;
   - Be a permanent resident for a certain amount of time (usually 5 years
   but less for some individuals);
   - Be a person of good moral character;
   - Have a basic knowledge of U.S. history and government;
   - Have a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the
   United States; and
   - Be able to read, write, and speak basic English. There are exceptions
   to this rule for someone who:
  - Is 55 years old and has been a permanent resident for at least 15
  years; or Is 50 years old and has been a permanent resident for
at least 20
  years; or
  - Has a permanent physical or mental impairment that makes the
  individual unable to fulfill these requirements.


Lots of documents/videos/etc here that explain it all:
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis
http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/B3en.pdf
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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

  The issue of illegal aliens is essentially an enormous financial siphon
and legal black hole that is fenced off from public criticism by the (false)
pretext of racism.

  Many different groups use this siphon and legal black hole to their
advantage.  Naturally such a thing attracts all sorts of characters ranging
from economic refugees to mafia drug lords to corrupt bureaucrats.  It
certainly does not benefit Americans at all.  When you calculate cost to tax
base, they don't even offer cheap labor.

   -jmz




On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 4:00 PM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:



 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 15:45, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote:

 The problem isn't illegal immigration. Its that immigration is illegal.


 Sorry maybe you didn't know about this but... immigration is not illegal!
 Foreign born citizens become legal American citizens every single day.

 Its just that these particular people choose not to go through the process
 to become legal American citizens.  The other possibility is that they're
 not eligible or don't want fulfill the requirements.
 Generally, to be eligible for naturalization you must:

- Be age 18 or older;
- Be a permanent resident for a certain amount of time (usually 5 years
but less for some individuals);
- Be a person of good moral character;
- Have a basic knowledge of U.S. history and government;
- Have a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the
United States; and
- Be able to read, write, and speak basic English. There are exceptions
to this rule for someone who:
   - Is 55 years old and has been a permanent resident for at least 15
   years; or Is 50 years old and has been a permanent resident for at 
 least 20
   years; or
   - Has a permanent physical or mental impairment that makes the
   individual unable to fulfill these requirements.


 Lots of documents/videos/etc here that explain it all:
 http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis
 http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/B3en.pdf


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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Robert Holtzman


On Tue, 18 May 2010, Craig White wrote:


On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 14:05 -0500, Alex Dean wrote:

On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:



  Wake up and smell the coffee.


This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux.  Can this please be
ended?  This thread has run its course.


obviously you don't understand that JMZ has absolutely no respect for
the members of this group and somehow think that his insistent posting
of his political views somehow correlates to persuasion. It doesn't
persuade me to thinking anything except that they are abusive, obnoxious
and irrelevant. Keith to a lesser extent.


You have to remember that every group has it's crusading self 
centered lunatic fringe who are determined to save the world by 
belaboring everyone within earshot with their crackpot politics.

Even Linux users.

--
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer
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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Matt Graham

From: Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net
[snip]
 You have to remember that every group has its crusading self 
 centered lunatic fringe who are determined to save the world by 
 belaboring everyone within earshot with their crackpot politics.

Even though something that I wrote 1.5 years ago shouldn't still be relevant,
it seems to be:  http://crow202.org/wordpress/2008/11/oh-enough-already/

-- 
Matt G / Dances With Crows
The Crow202 Blog:  http://crow202.org/wordpress/
There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see


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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

you haven't immigrated here lately, have you?
I am not talking about naturalization (which is not a simple checklist like
you make it out to be). I am talking about merely coming to work (which is
also not a simple checklist like you make it out to be).

Eric

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 4:00 PM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:



 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 15:45, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote:

 The problem isn't illegal immigration. Its that immigration is illegal.


 Sorry maybe you didn't know about this but... immigration is not illegal!
 Foreign born citizens become legal American citizens every single day.

 Its just that these particular people choose not to go through the process
 to become legal American citizens.  The other possibility is that they're
 not eligible or don't want fulfill the requirements.
 Generally, to be eligible for naturalization you must:

- Be age 18 or older;
- Be a permanent resident for a certain amount of time (usually 5 years
but less for some individuals);
- Be a person of good moral character;
- Have a basic knowledge of U.S. history and government;
- Have a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the
United States; and
- Be able to read, write, and speak basic English. There are exceptions
to this rule for someone who:
   - Is 55 years old and has been a permanent resident for at least 15
   years; or Is 50 years old and has been a permanent resident for at 
 least 20
   years; or
   - Has a permanent physical or mental impairment that makes the
   individual unable to fulfill these requirements.


 Lots of documents/videos/etc here that explain it all:
 http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis
 http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/B3en.pdf

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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 16:09, Joshua Zeidner jjzeid...@gmail.com wrote:



   The issue of illegal aliens is essentially an enormous financial siphon
 and legal black hole that is fenced off from public criticism by the (false)
 pretext of racism.


I'd agree that in MOST cases it is false and no racism is involved.  There
are still a small minority of racist idiots out there on BOTH sides.
Racists are typically not very intelligent and it is easier to blame their
problems on other people than face the fact that they're the only captain of
their ship in life.

The media seems to do a lot of racism flame throwing.  This new law is a
perfect example of that.  We have people like our US Attorney general giving
opinion on it based only on what they've heard in the media (hasn't actually
read it) which just fuels the misinformation even more.  Anyone that shows
up for the pro-SB1070 rally will immediately be branded as racist by the
media (local and otherwise), the numbers will be under reported, and the
racist idiots that show up will be the voice heard on the news.




   Many different groups use this siphon and legal black hole to their
 advantage.  Naturally such a thing attracts all sorts of characters ranging
 from economic refugees to mafia drug lords to corrupt bureaucrats.  It
 certainly does not benefit Americans at all.  When you calculate cost to tax
 base, they don't even offer cheap labor.

-jmz


America is essentially a safety valve and money stream for Mexico.  The
Mexican people are a proud hard working people that are oppressed by their
own corrupt government and rich families.  I bet if there were a popular
vote there the Mexican people would vote to become a US territory.
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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 16:32, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote:

 you haven't immigrated here lately, have you?
 I am not talking about naturalization (which is not a simple checklist like
 you make it out to be). I am talking about merely coming to work (which is
 also not a simple checklist like you make it out to be).

 Eric


 Sorry Eric; we're in a pretty serious recession; Americans want those jobs
too.
You're right it isn't a simple check list.  Even when emigration was easier
people still had to go through an approval process.

For workers that are in demand there are visa programs that allow workers to
come here legally.
It's all on that same site.
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=838e2f8b69583210VgnVCM10082ca60aRCRDvgnextchannel=838e2f8b69583210VgnVCM10082ca60aRCRD

No alien may accept employment in the United States unless they have been
authorized to do so. Some aliens, such as those who have been admitted as
permanent residents, granted asylum or refugee status, or admitted in
work-related nonimmigrant classifications, may have employment authorization
as a direct result of their immigration status. *Other aliens may need to
apply individually for employment authorization.*
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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Matt Iavarone

This is perhaps the most ignorant statement I have ever seen on the subject.
Do you really believe these people would not rather have had the opportunty
to come here legally?  Are you really that out of touch with reality?

On May 18, 2010 7:00 PM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:



On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 15:45, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote:

 The problem isn't illega...
Sorry maybe you didn't know about this but... immigration is not illegal!
Foreign born citizens become legal American citizens every single day.

Its just that these particular people choose not to go through the process
to become legal American citizens.  The other possibility is that they're
not eligible or don't want fulfill the requirements.
Generally, to be eligible for naturalization you must:

   - Be age 18 or older;
   - Be a permanent resident for a certain amount of time (usually 5 years
   but less for some individuals);
   - Be a person of good moral character;
   - Have a basic knowledge of U.S. history and government;
   - Have a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the
   United States; and
   - Be able to read, write, and speak basic English. There are exceptions
   to this rule for someone who:
  - Is 55 years old and has been a permanent resident for at least 15
  years; or Is 50 years old and has been a permanent resident for
at least 20
  years; or
  - Has a permanent physical or mental impairment that makes the
  individual unable to fulfill these requirements.


Lots of documents/videos/etc here that explain it all:
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis
http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/B3en.pdf

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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread wta

I am sorry guys to interrupt your drama club, but this is a plug discuss
group, no politics or religion here, but if you like this topic so much, you
may create a discuss group.

you know one email is ok, but getting all this crap that will take you
nowhere is no nice for nobody.

Just let it be, and go back to LINUX

thank you guys, I sorry to get in your way

dona nobis pacem = Grant us peace

walter


On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Eric Cope eric.c...@gmail.com wrote:

 thats a great picture - and a pretty good post too.
 Eric


 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Matt Graham danceswithcr...@usa.netwrote:

 From: Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net
 [snip]
  You have to remember that every group has its crusading self
  centered lunatic fringe who are determined to save the world by
  belaboring everyone within earshot with their crackpot politics.

 Even though something that I wrote 1.5 years ago shouldn't still be
 relevant,
 it seems to be:  http://crow202.org/wordpress/2008/11/oh-enough-already/

 --
 Matt G / Dances With Crows
 The Crow202 Blog:  http://crow202.org/wordpress/
 There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see


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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Craig White

On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 16:09 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
 On Tue, 18 May 2010, Craig White wrote:
 
  On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 14:05 -0500, Alex Dean wrote:
  On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:
 
 
Wake up and smell the coffee.
 
  This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux.  Can this please be
  ended?  This thread has run its course.
  
  obviously you don't understand that JMZ has absolutely no respect for
  the members of this group and somehow think that his insistent posting
  of his political views somehow correlates to persuasion. It doesn't
  persuade me to thinking anything except that they are abusive, obnoxious
  and irrelevant. Keith to a lesser extent.
 
 You have to remember that every group has it's crusading self 
 centered lunatic fringe who are determined to save the world by 
 belaboring everyone within earshot with their crackpot politics.
 Even Linux users.

:::sigh:::

I suppose so - it's pointless to engage them too which is why I have
stayed out.

Craig



-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 16:57, Matt Iavarone matt.iavar...@gmail.comwrote:

 This is perhaps the most ignorant statement I have ever seen on the
 subject. Do you really believe these people would not rather have had the
 opportunty to come here legally?  Are you really that out of touch with
 reality?

I appreciate your comment but I disagree naturally :)  Sure they'd love to
be US citizens but they choose not to go through the process.

They likely chose to come here illegally because *it's easier*, they didn't
have the money to file the paperwork (whoever lured them here illegally
should have sponsored them and paid it), or fulfill the requirements (such
as speaking English proficiently), or wait to be approved.  It is a slap in
the face to the millions of Mexican Americans that came here legally and
followed the rules *just ask any of them (I have).*

I'm a god father to children in two different such families with extended
branches of non-legal family members.  I've seen this issue from both
sides.  Sure I feel sorry for them and I'd probably do the same thing in
their circumstance but as soon as I was here I'd start the process to become
a legal citizen.  Of the extended families I've seen with 1/2 or more
illegal citizens many of them started out illegal but became legal citizens
in the amnesty in the 80s, others were born here after their parents came
here illegally, and the rest are still breaking the law.

Just the fact that they are here illegally fuels more illegal activity.  The
ones that aren't here legally get fake/stolen IDs and Social security cards
in order to work.  Many join gangs, steal cars, sell drugs, and conduct
other illegal activity to make money.  The ones that have been convicted of
a crime will never be allowed to be US citizens.  That was all in LA but I'm
sure the same thing happens here.  If they had come here legally I doubt
they'd be doing any of that as they're otherwise good people.

It's natural that they don't want this new law enforced; if half of my
family was here illegally I wouldn't want it enforced either.  It's very sad
that many of the people that are here illegally have been here since they
were small children and despite the fact that they were born in Mexico it
would be a foreign country to them if they returned.  If their parents had
become naturalized US citizens they also would be Us citizens as long as
they were under 18.  It's not their fault that their parents brought them
here illegally but it's also doesn't change that they must take measures to
become a legal citizen if they wish to stay here.

I hope enforcement of this new law will prompt many here illegally to become
legal American citizens (I believe they already are doing that) and for
these large political groups currently fighting it to put up the money,
people, and other resources help them through that process.
Think about it for a minute and you'll realize that we actually need more
laws like this to change the status quo and to stop the exploitation of
these great people.

JD
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(OT) Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Lyle Tuttle



At 04:57 PM 5/18/2010, you wrote:
This is perhaps the most
ignorant statement I have ever seen on the subject. Do you really believe
these people would not rather have had the opportunty to come here
legally? Are you really that out of touch with
reality?
Of course they would! And they are working hard at getting open
borders, too! They even teach it in some schools - can you say La
Roza? I think PBS was filing in Tucson when Huppenthal was
visiting, and had to explain some facts to the class.I will ask
him if he has a link to ita picture is worth 1,000 words

At least 20% of the illegals would not be allowed to enter due to their
criminal history. And if you think it is just Mexicans or Central
Americans crossing, you should educated yourself.
Have you ever sat near the border and watched them cross at night?
I have. Have you ever helped clean up the 'lay-up' areas where they
dump their laptop cases, now empty of drugs, then change their clothes
and move North? I have.
Look, I have a lot of respect for those who pay the coyotes to walk them
across the border (have you seen it where it is 3 strands of barbed wire,
with trails clear as day where they cross?) to make a better life for
themselves.but they are still breaking the law. 
Sorry, but if you want more legal immigration, change the law, but stop
crying for amnesty for law-breakers and shouting raciest for
those of us who want the laws enforced. It has nothing to do with
ethnicity, but of law.
lyle


On May 18, 2010
7:00 PM, JD Austin
j...@twingeckos.com
wrote:

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 15:45, Eric Cope
eric.c...@gmail.com
wrote:

 The problem isn't illega...
Sorry maybe you didn't know about this but...
immigration is not illegal! 
Foreign born citizens become legal American citizens every single
day. 
Its just that these particular people choose not to go through the
process to become legal American citizens. The other possibility is
that they're not eligible or don't want fulfill the requirements.
Generally, to be eligible for naturalization you must:

Be age 18 or older;
Be a permanent resident for a certain amount of time (usually 5 years
but less for some individuals);
Be a person of good moral character;
Have a basic knowledge of U.S. history and government; 
Have a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the
United States; and
Be able to read, write, and speak basic English. There are exceptions
to this rule for someone who:

Is 55 years old and has been a permanent resident for at least 15
years; or Is 50 years old and has been a permanent resident for at least
20 years; or 
Has a permanent physical or mental impairment that makes the
individual unable to fulfill these requirements.


Lots of documents/videos/etc here that explain it all:

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis

http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/B3en.pdf
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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Matt Iavarone

Again, you are showing your ignorance.  If you enter without inspection, you
cannot apply for a visa or change your status.  You have to go back to your
native country, subject to a ban of up to 10 years, and then apply and wait,
and of course pay through the nose with non existant funds.

On May 18, 2010 9:04 PM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:


On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 16:57, Matt Iavarone matt.iavar...@gmail.com
wrote:

 This is perhaps t...
I appreciate your comment but I disagree naturally :)  Sure they'd love to
be US citizens but they choose not to go through the process.

They likely chose to come here illegally because *it's easier*, they didn't
have the money to file the paperwork (whoever lured them here illegally
should have sponsored them and paid it), or fulfill the requirements (such
as speaking English proficiently), or wait to be approved.  It is a slap in
the face to the millions of Mexican Americans that came here legally and
followed the rules *just ask any of them (I have).*

I'm a god father to children in two different such families with extended
branches of non-legal family members.  I've seen this issue from both
sides.  Sure I feel sorry for them and I'd probably do the same thing in
their circumstance but as soon as I was here I'd start the process to become
a legal citizen.  Of the extended families I've seen with 1/2 or more
illegal citizens many of them started out illegal but became legal citizens
in the amnesty in the 80s, others were born here after their parents came
here illegally, and the rest are still breaking the law.

Just the fact that they are here illegally fuels more illegal activity.  The
ones that aren't here legally get fake/stolen IDs and Social security cards
in order to work.  Many join gangs, steal cars, sell drugs, and conduct
other illegal activity to make money.  The ones that have been convicted of
a crime will never be allowed to be US citizens.  That was all in LA but I'm
sure the same thing happens here.  If they had come here legally I doubt
they'd be doing any of that as they're otherwise good people.

It's natural that they don't want this new law enforced; if half of my
family was here illegally I wouldn't want it enforced either.  It's very sad
that many of the people that are here illegally have been here since they
were small children and despite the fact that they were born in Mexico it
would be a foreign country to them if they returned.  If their parents had
become naturalized US citizens they also would be Us citizens as long as
they were under 18.  It's not their fault that their parents brought them
here illegally but it's also doesn't change that they must take measures to
become a legal citizen if they wish to stay here.

I hope enforcement of this new law will prompt many here illegally to become
legal American citizens (I believe they already are doing that) and for
these large political groups currently fighting it to put up the money,
people, and other resources help them through that process.
Think about it for a minute and you'll realize that we actually need more
laws like this to change the status quo and to stop the exploitation of
these great people.

JD



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Re: (OT) Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?


Good Job!



Keith Smith

--- On Tue, 5/18/10, Lyle Tuttle l.tut...@cox.net wrote:

From: Lyle Tuttle l.tut...@cox.net
Subject: (OT) Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 6:44 PM


 
At 04:57 PM 5/18/2010, you wrote:


This is perhaps the most
ignorant statement I have ever seen on the subject. Do you really believe
these people would not rather have had the opportunty to come here
legally?  Are you really that out of touch with
reality?

Of course they would!  And they are working hard at getting open
borders, too!  They even teach it in some schools - can you say La
Roza?  I think PBS was filing in Tucson when Huppenthal was
visiting, and had to explain some facts to the class.I will ask
him if he has a link to ita picture is worth 1,000 words



At least 20% of the illegals would not be allowed to enter due to their
criminal history.  And if you think it is just Mexicans or Central
Americans crossing, you should educated yourself.


Have you ever sat near the border and watched them cross at night? 
I have.  Have you ever helped clean up the 'lay-up' areas where they
dump their laptop cases, now empty of drugs, then change their clothes
and move North?  I have.


Look, I have a lot of respect for those who pay the coyotes to walk them
across the border (have you seen it where it is 3 strands of barbed wire,
with trails clear as day where they cross?) to make a better life for
themselves.but they are still breaking the law.  


Sorry, but if you want more legal immigration, change the law, but stop
crying for amnesty for law-breakers and shouting raciest for
those of us who want the laws enforced.  It has nothing to do with
ethnicity, but of law.


lyle





On May 18, 2010
7:00 PM, JD Austin
j...@twingeckos.com
wrote:





On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 15:45, Eric Cope
eric.c...@gmail.com
wrote:



 The problem isn't illega...

Sorry maybe you didn't know about this but...
immigration is not illegal! 

Foreign born citizens become legal American citizens every single
day.  


Its just that these particular people choose not to go through the
process to become legal American citizens.  The other possibility is
that they're not eligible or don't want fulfill the requirements.

Generally, to be eligible for naturalization you must:

Be age 18 or older;
Be a permanent resident for a certain amount of time (usually 5 years
but less for some individuals);
Be a person of good moral character;
Have a basic knowledge of U.S. history and government; 
Have a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the
United States; and
Be able to read, write, and speak basic English. There are exceptions
to this rule for someone who:

Is 55 years old and has been a permanent resident for at least 15
years; or Is 50 years old and has been a permanent resident for at least
20 years; or 
Has a permanent physical or mental impairment that makes the
individual unable to fulfill these requirements.



Lots of documents/videos/etc here that explain it all:

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis


http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/B3en.pdf


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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?


Wait a minute.  There are reports that is cost $2500 to pay the coyote to bring 
them here. $2500 in nothing to sneeze at.

There is a lot more to this story than we know.  This is huge. 



Keith Smith

--- On Tue, 5/18/10, Matt Iavarone matt.iavar...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Matt Iavarone matt.iavar...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?
To: Main PLUG discussion list plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 6:46 PM

Again, you are showing your ignorance.  If you enter without inspection, you 
cannot apply for a visa or change your status.  You have to go back to your 
native country, subject to a ban of up to 10 years, and then apply and wait, 
and of course pay through the nose with non existant funds.

On May 18, 2010 9:04 PM, JD Austin j...@twingeckos.com wrote:


On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 16:57, Matt Iavarone matt.iavar...@gmail.com wrote:


 This is perhaps t...I appreciate your comment but I disagree naturally :)  
 Sure they'd love to be US citizens but they choose not to go through the 
 process.  

They likely chose to come here illegally because it's easier, they didn't have 
the money to file the paperwork (whoever lured them here illegally should have 
sponsored them and paid it), or fulfill the requirements (such as speaking 
English proficiently), or wait to be approved.  It is a slap in the face to the 
millions of Mexican Americans that came here legally and followed the rules 
just ask any of them (I have).  



I'm a god father to children in two different such families with extended 
branches of non-legal family members.  I've seen this issue from both sides.  
Sure I feel sorry for them and I'd 
probably do the same thing in their circumstance but as soon as I was here I'd 
start the process to become a legal citizen.  Of the extended families I've 
seen with 1/2 or more illegal citizens many of them started out illegal but 
became legal citizens in the amnesty in the 80s, others were born here after 
their parents came here illegally, and the rest are still breaking the law.  



Just the fact that they are here illegally fuels more illegal activity.  The 
ones that aren't here legally get fake/stolen IDs and Social security cards in 
order to work.  Many join gangs, steal cars, sell drugs, and conduct other 
illegal activity to make money.  The ones that have been convicted of a crime 
will never be allowed to be US citizens.  That was all in LA but I'm sure the 
same thing happens here.  If they had come here legally I doubt they'd be doing 
any of that as they're otherwise good people.



It's natural that they don't want this new law enforced; if half of my family 
was here illegally I wouldn't want it enforced either.  It's very sad that many 
of the people that are here illegally have been here since they were small 
children and despite the fact that they were born in Mexico it would be a 
foreign country to them if they returned.  If their parents had become 
naturalized US citizens they also would be Us citizens as long as they were 
under 18.  It's not their fault that their parents brought them here illegally 
but it's also doesn't change that they must take measures to become a legal 
citizen if they wish to stay here.  



I hope enforcement of this new law will prompt many here illegally to become 
legal American citizens (I believe they already are doing that) and for these 
large political groups currently fighting it to put up the money, people, and 
other resources help them through that process.  


Think about it for a minute and you'll realize that we actually need more laws 
like this to change the status quo and to stop the exploitation of these great 
people.  

JD




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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 18:46, Matt Iavarone matt.iavar...@gmail.comwrote:

 Again, you are showing your ignorance.  If you enter without inspection,
 you cannot apply for a visa or change your status.  You have to go back to
 your native country, subject to a ban of up to 10 years, and then apply and
 wait, and of course pay through the nose with non existant funds.

Right.. thats part of the penalty of coming here illegally. I didn't say it
would be easy.  Companies that are luring them here have the money.  Though
if they paid those fees then it would be cheaper to pay Americans to do
those jobs instead of exploiting people from Mexico.

So you're saying that since it's 'hard' then we should be ok with anyone
breaking the law as long as it's easier than following the law?

If a company offers them a job they can get a green card to work here
legally:
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=daa2a6c515083210VgnVCM10082ca60aRCRDvgnextchannel=daa2a6c515083210VgnVCM10082ca60aRCRD
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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Alex Dean



On May 18, 2010, at 2:19 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:




On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Alex Dean a...@crackpot.org wrote:
On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:


 Wake up and smell the coffee.

This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux.  Can this please be  
ended?  This thread has run its course.




   sure as soon as someone gives me an adequate explanation as to  
why SB1070 is called racist and MEChA is funded by our state  
university.



   -jmz


I think you've made it quite clear you don't believe *any* adequate  
explanation of either thing exists.  So what are we do to?  This  
thread has run its course.

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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Jim

due to repeated inappropriate use of this list, all posts relating to 
the apple boycott will be filtered to trash.


if some members fail to respect the other members of this list, and if 
the managers of this list fail to take appropriate action, i can and will.


Craig White wrote:

On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 14:05 -0500, Alex Dean wrote:

On May 18, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote:


  Wake up and smell the coffee.
This coffee doesn't smell anything like linux.  Can this please be  
ended?  This thread has run its course.


obviously you don't understand that JMZ has absolutely no respect for
the members of this group and somehow think that his insistent posting
of his political views somehow correlates to persuasion. It doesn't
persuade me to thinking anything except that they are abusive, obnoxious
and irrelevant. Keith to a lesser extent. 


Craig



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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?

2010-05-18 Thread Alex Dean



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Re: ditching Apple products due to boycotts?