Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls
We'll offer them separately as soon as we have enough in stock. Polishing them is tricky, since the post has to remain full diameter and roundness... Our polisher is working on them, but for now, we only have enough in stock to fit on complete brakesets. The upgrade kit has proven remarkably popular. Clearly, there are many people who have a set of Mafacs on a bike they love. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Saturday, December 6, 2014 7:43:19 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote: Our custom pad holders are short enough to clear the seatstays/fork blades, so the brake can open wide. Most modern pads hit the stays/blades, which limits how wide the brake can open. I sure hope that Compass makes those brake holders available separately. They appear to be another real upgrade from stock MAFAC hardware. That's the only piece that doesn't appear to be available separately. Hopefully that's just a temporary condition. People who buy that $125 hardware upgrade kit for their MAFAC Racers will probably want those nicer pad holders. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] About to start experimenting with centerpulls
Paul Price (the Paul of Paul Component Engineering) and I have known each other for a very long time. I remember how he called me up after I wrote an article about centerpulls for the Riv. Reader, way back in the last century (before Bicycle Quarterly), and asked about them. I sent him a set of old Mafac Racers, and he liked them so much that he made his own Racers. We talked back then about forging the arms, and he told me that in the U.S., there simply isn't anybody making small aluminum forgings like that. So you basically have a choice of CNC-machining in the U.S. or having them forged where the technology exists. These days, even TA cranks are forged in Taiwan. Forging requires a higher initial investment, but the part is stronger and thus can be made lighter, and there isn't as much waste. (With CNC-machining, you make a lot of chips as you chisel the part out of a block of aluminum. With forging, you squish a piece of aluminum that is roughly the right size into a die that gives the part the shape you want.) To me, made in the U.S. isn't that important, as long as it's made under good working conditions. My friends live all over the world, and it doesn't make sense to prefer my American friends over my Japanese, French or German friends. We look at each supplier to make sure they are working in ways that I can support, both with concern to labor and to the environment. Beyond that, I do prefer short supply paths, for environmental and logistical reasons. If possible, we'll make components close to Seattle, like our laser-cut rack tabs, our frame alignment gauges, and some other projects that are still in development. We buy American-made brake shoes, and our tire wipers are made by a retired guy in the U.S. who is grateful for the extra income. Our leather washers for fender mounting come from California... Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. Seattle WA USA www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Thursday, December 4, 2014 9:55:54 AM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not a huge flag-waver, but Pauls are made in Chico, CA. I know Taiwanese folks have families and kids and hobbies and mortgages, but I guess I'd rather give my money to Mr. Price and support their local economy. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.
The problem with Phil Wood BBs and hubs isn't the bearings, but the lack of seals for them. The black rubber shields are intended to keep out dust, not water. So you basically have the bearings exposed to the elements... If you ride in the rain, they won't last long. As you point out, at least they are replaceable. Regarding the SKF bottom bracket you installed, it sounds that either the BB shell's threads are too small (worn reamer), or the SKF unit's threads are too large. That would constrict the BB, reduce its diameter, and cause rough running of the rollers on the driveside. The SKF does have a very thin shell (to maximize space for the bearings inside and minimize the weight), so it may be a bit more sensitive to misalignment, etc., than other BBs with thicker shells. If your friend's BB is faulty, then it's covered by our 10-year warranty, of course (which includes the bearings, unlike almost all other BB warranties). Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Saturday, November 29, 2014 6:58:54 AM UTC-8, Anton Tutter wrote: Phil Wood complaints. [...] Since they don't manufacture their own bearings but use standard bearings (of which they source very high quality ones from the Japanese mfr NTN), the reliability of their BBs should be no better or worse than any other brand that uses similarly high quality bearings. As for SKF BBs, I have never owned one but I had an interesting experience installing one on a friend's bike. Her frame was a new, hand-built frame from a known Boston-area master builder, so there was no possibility of the BB having been faced/chased improperly. The SKF threaded in by hand and spun very smoothly, until the drive side cup was torqued to spec. Then the bearings began to bind and feel rough. If I backed off the torque and loosened the DS cup, the bearings turned smoothly again. This was without the NDS cup installed, so there were no axial alignment issues causing the binding-- the non-drive side was right on axis and the NDS cup could thread in without binding the cartridge. I suspect the cartridge housing, which is milled as one piece with the DS cup, had been improperly made, and when torqued into the BB shell, deformed slightly, putting stress on the bearing where where there shouldn't be. When I grabbed another random used Shimano cartridge unit from my parts bin, it torqued in just fine and remained smooth. Anton On Saturday, November 29, 2014 8:07:07 AM UTC-5, ascpgh wrote: Anton, You touched on my major favorite. Mavic headsets, bottom brackets and hubs of the late '80s and early '90s opened a special place in my heart, for cartridge bearings particularly. The BB was fantastic, serviceable without deinstalling. The bearings were not fiddly odd ducks, I'd picked some up at an industrial bearing supply house. Appreciating the same, I have had fluctuating luck with the Phil BBs. I switched to the SKF in my Ram when I changed my triple to a wide double. I was very much into that era of Mavic components until their manufacture ended. I still found NOS at shops ten years later. That headset, predating threadless, was fantastic in its design and operation. Once the sourcing of those parts became rare I sold my Mavic mechanic's toolkit to Jeremy at http://www.tearsforgears.com (On the front page, the picture for Mavic tools is the box. All those technical drawings on mylar pages too.) Shifting systems have always been moving targets when trying to pin down the sweet spot. Indexed shifting has an impulse that the shifter generates and transmits down the cable to which the derailleur responds. The different brands do so in different manners which vary where the stress peaks are and also how those pieces are able to tolerate being cheapened for budget groups. The chain and cog teeth interaction once the shift impulse is initiated is the final interaction. Shimano shifting seems to produce the highest spike of impulse energy for indexed shifts and I feel like over the years it is a key source of the wear that befalls their out of the box shifting first. These sudden yanks of cable have left so many rear derailleurs with accumulated play in the parallelogram pivots, as that thread about STX pointed out. Anyone have a strong feeling as to the durability of your shift cables in a particular brand's drivetrain? There is nothing better than a sweet functioning component, even more so if light too. I have to say I have been confounded by such components when they don't meet the expectations that either the expense or effort to provide for them in a build. Bottom of the top third hub offerings from Shimano have done well for me and I think no ill thoughts about their retirement. I was about to send a set back to PJW for a new build and he instead offered a new in box set of XTs that made
[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.
The current owners of the Phil Wood company sometimes do make misleading statements, like We have often been credited with inventing the cartridge bearing bottom bracket in an interview in the Reader No. 40. (Note how they don't claim that they invented it... Cartridge bearings in hubs and BBs have been around at least since the 1930s.) That one really bothered the historian in me! I wouldn't be surprised if the submersible pumps used the same bearings, but I suspect that they have external seals that make sure the bearings don't get wet in the first place! The bearings on Phil hubs really need external bearings – they aren't designed to be exposed to the elements. Look around any industrial application (or even your car) – you won't find cartridge bearings exposed to the elements, unless the piece of machinery is only used indoors. Disclosure: Compass Bicycles sells SKF bottom brackets, so we are a competitor to Phil Wood. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. Seattle WA USA www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Saturday, November 29, 2014 9:37:18 AM UTC-8, Anton Tutter wrote: It was indeed water that destroyed my Phil bearings, but what confuses me is that Phil states they use the highest grade of seals available, basically the same ones used on submersible pump bearings. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.
Sorry, I mistyped: The below sentence should say external SEALS (not bearings). Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. On Saturday, November 29, 2014 12:20:50 PM UTC-8, Jan Heine wrote: The bearings on Phil hubs really need external bearings – they aren't designed to be exposed to the elements. Look around any industrial application (or even your car) – you won't find cartridge bearings exposed to the elements, unless the piece of machinery is only used indoors. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Oregon Outback and water
My water consumption depends very much on the temperature. In the early morning, I often ride 50+ miles on half a bottle. (I usually start rides well-hydrated.) If it's very hot and dry, I may drink a bottle every 10 miles. Listening to my body is key to completing challenging rides. I also don't plan to ride for 5 hours without water. However, I also don't limit myself by the fear of discomfort. If I have a 5% chance of being very uncomfortable, but not seriously hurting myself, then that is a risk I am willing to take in exchange for an unforgettable experience. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Oregon Outback and water
Anne, You don't sound like somebody who is limiting herself. I was thinking about the people who write to me asking how I can ride these rides and not be scared. The precautions you plan to take are good ones. It's one thing to follow your dream, and an entirely different thing to be foolhardy. Funny thing about being tourists – I consider myself a cyclotourist, too. I stopped numerous times to take photos during the Oregon Outback. I had a choice between carrying a spare tire or my camera. It was an easy decision... When I raced, I carried neither! I hope to meet you at next year's Oregon Outback. I am sure you'll find the ride enjoyable and rewarding. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 9:50:14 AM UTC-8, Anne Paulson wrote: I'm not going to limit myself-- I'm going to do the Oregon Outback. And I'd say that there is, not a 5% chance, but a 100% chance, that at some point I'll be very uncomfortable. But I'm going to carry extra water. I'd rather arrive back with water to spare than ride 14 miles in the desert into a headwind. And if that makes me slower-- well, take a look at my sig. I'm not racing. I just want to have fun. (Not meaning to imply that racers aren't having fun, but I'm a tourist.) On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Jan Heine hei...@earthlink.net javascript: wrote: My water consumption depends very much on the temperature. In the early morning, I often ride 50+ miles on half a bottle. (I usually start rides well-hydrated.) If it's very hot and dry, I may drink a bottle every 10 miles. Listening to my body is key to completing challenging rides. I also don't plan to ride for 5 hours without water. However, I also don't limit myself by the fear of discomfort. If I have a 5% chance of being very uncomfortable, but not seriously hurting myself, then that is a risk I am willing to take in exchange for an unforgettable experience. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript:. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- Anne Paulson It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Oregon Outback and water
The 40 miles per bottle were on soft gravel in daytime, which resulted in more work per mile than the stretch from Fort Rock to Prineville, most of which is on harder gravel or even pavement. Plus, I did half of that stretch at night, with cooler temperatures. If I was concerned, I'd put a disposable water bottle or two in my jersey pockets, thus increasing my capacity by 40%. It's important to be prepared, but not be scared off. In the end, you just have to go out and do it! If you have to ride 20 miles without water, it'll probably be fine. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Monday, November 24, 2014 7:28:38 PM UTC-8, ted wrote: Thanks for weighing in with your experience Jan. Sounds like you got 40 miles per bottle, so with 3 bottles you had at least 50% margin for an 80 mile gap between water. No worries, pretty simple. I presume warmer sunnier conditions would reduce your miles per bottle, and would eat into that margin. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Oregon Outback and water
I think the longest stretch without water was about 40 miles, maybe a bit more during the night. I think the organizers carried a lot of water because they camped in places with no water. If you want to cook dinner, you'll need some extra water. I carried three large cycling water bottles. That meant that I could skip the first two places where I could have got water on or near the route. (It was an overcast day, so I didn't sweat a lot.) I refilled my bottles for the first time at mile 120. I think the ride is doable for most riders with just three bottles, even if you go slower and sweat more. You should use every opportunity to top off in some parts of the course, but it's never so remote that you'll die if you are stranded. Cars use those roads (or the one's paralleling the trail), even if infrequently. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Oregon Outback and water
There are a bunch of campgrounds about 10 miles or so before Prineville in the canyon of the Crooked River. There were tons of people camping there, and I would be very surprised if they didn't have water. There were some farms about half-way between Fort Rock and Prineville. Assuming they aren't abandoned, you probably could get water there in an emergency. You also cross a major highway around there. It may be worth while investigating whether that highway gets you to a town sooner, in case you really are running low. I didn't stop during that stretch, except to take a few photos, so my experience is limited. In any case, it's a splendid adventure, but there are also some stretches that are a little monotonous. As you pass Fort Rock, you are going straight toward the horizon for a few hours... Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Monday, November 24, 2014 9:24:33 AM UTC-8, Anne Paulson wrote: The organizers assert: Water is very limited in several sections of the route. There are points of interest (POI) on the GPS link above that note the last reliable water for the most significant sections, the longest of which is ~80 miles. There are several other sections of 50+ miles without reliable water. The organizers also do not identify any water sources between Fort Rock and Prineville, a distance of 80 miles. Do you know of water between those spots? On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Jan Heine hei...@earthlink.net javascript: wrote: I think the longest stretch without water was about 40 miles, maybe a bit more during the night. I think the organizers carried a lot of water because they camped in places with no water. If you want to cook dinner, you'll need some extra water. I carried three large cycling water bottles. That meant that I could skip the first two places where I could have got water on or near the route. (It was an overcast day, so I didn't sweat a lot.) I refilled my bottles for the first time at mile 120. I think the ride is doable for most riders with just three bottles, even if you go slower and sweat more. You should use every opportunity to top off in some parts of the course, but it's never so remote that you'll die if you are stranded. Cars use those roads (or the one's paralleling the trail), even if infrequently. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript:. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- Anne Paulson It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Cyclocross and a little contest
I am sorry if my post offended some people, or if it sounded like I suggested that you _should_ like cyclocross _racing_. My intention simply was only to point out that cyclocross is out there for those who feel so inclined, but not to suggest that you should like it (or anything else, at that matter.) *Bicycle Quarterly*'s editorial policy always has been to provide the facts, but leave the judgment up to you. That is why we don't crown bikes of the year or rides of the year – we figure that everybody's preferences are different. So we provide the facts (for example, how a bike handles, how it performs, how well it's put together), and you can form your own opinion on whether you'd like to own one or not. I am sorry if my post was unclear in that regard. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Flats and Hetres
I agree with you, with one caveat: Width and tire pressure make a huge difference. If you are comparing two 32 mm tires, the supple, light one will get more flats. But if you are comparing a puncture-resistant 32 mm tire with a supple, light 42 mm tire, the 42 mm tire probably will get fewer flats. For me, the key to riding supple tires with almost zero flats has been wide tires, which I run at 38-45 psi. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Saturday, November 15, 2014 10:28:17 AM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote: The simple physics is that light, supple tires with thin rubber are going to be punctured more easily than tires with thicker rubber, heavier walls, puncture strips, etc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Flats and Hetres
I don't use tire wipers http://www.compasscycle.com/tires_wipers_700.html any longer, since I just don't have enough flats to warrant the noise and dust they put on the bike. When I raced on 21.5 mm tubulars, I had lots of flats until I started using tire wipers. Thereafter, only a single flat in three years of racing – the tire wiper had become dislodged and no longer rubbed the surface of the tire... Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Sunday, November 16, 2014 3:47:55 PM UTC-8, AaronY wrote: Jan, Do you still use tire sweeper contraptions? Thanks, Aaron Young The Dalles, OR On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 11:06 AM, Jan Heine hei...@earthlink.net javascript: wrote: I agree with you, with one caveat: Width and tire pressure make a huge difference. If you are comparing two 32 mm tires, the supple, light one will get more flats. But if you are comparing a puncture-resistant 32 mm tire with a supple, light 42 mm tire, the 42 mm tire probably will get fewer flats. For me, the key to riding supple tires with almost zero flats has been wide tires, which I run at 38-45 psi. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Saturday, November 15, 2014 10:28:17 AM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote: The simple physics is that light, supple tires with thin rubber are going to be punctured more easily than tires with thicker rubber, heavier walls, puncture strips, etc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript:. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Flats and Hetres
I looked at the photo, and it doesn't look that abnormal. We have car accidents in Seattle, too. I just go around the pile of debris, rather than through it. When you look at the photo, you can see that the travel lane is clean. That said, I had to go through a pile of bottle glass in a narrow spot yesterday, and was surprised that no flats ensued. It was probably just luck, but overall, I get far fewer flats with wider tires. The lower air pressure does work for me at least – the only flats I get these days are from steel wires that come out of exploded car and truck tires. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. Seattle WA USA http://www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Friday, November 14, 2014 6:48:28 PM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote: Obviously, Jan H. is lucky not to have to deal with this on a daily basis: https://flic.kr/p/pM2AGC His flat-free experience would be much different, I think, if he had to ride in these conditions. P.S. Today’s ride: No flats!! —Eric N campyo...@me.com javascript: www.campyonly.com www.wheelsnorth.org Blog: http://campyonlyguy.blogspot.com Twitter: @campyonlyguy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Cyclocross and a little contest
Just a heads-up for our little contest – guess how much mud my 'cross bike hauled around at the end of last weekend's race. The best guess wins a 1-year subscription to *Bicycle Quarterly*. I haven't seen much discussion of cyclocross here, even though it seems like it would appeal to many here – it's fun and exhilarating, and compared to any other forms of racing, there is little or no pressure or snobbish-ness. I've been racing my Alan – friction shifting, bar-ends, lugged frame – and everybody seems to love the classic bike. More about the bike and contest here: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/why-i-love-cyclocross/ Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Cyclocross and a little contest
The one thing that is nice about 'cross is that you don't get cold even on a cold, damp day, because you aren't out for that long, and you are going fast. I was wearing shorts and short sleeves in November in Seattle! I understand the unracer ethic, but I don't think it means that you cannot enjoy going fast once in a while. Cyclocross is about as unracer as you can get, since you can race almost any bike and almost any outfit - and believe me, people do! It's not like racing, where you have to wear team kit and get dropped on the first hill if your fitness isn't at the top level. In 'cross, you are racing (in a friendly way) the guy ahead of you and the one behind you. And at the end, it's smiles all around, and nobody really cares who won. Unless you've been to a race and tried it, it's hard to pass judgment. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly Seattle WA USA www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Is the Bleriot/Honjos/ Hetres clearance I have not enough?
Compass tires have about the same tread thickness as the Grand Bois for the 700C models, and a bit thinner tread that the (somewhat excessively thick) Grand Bois 650B models. In my experience, thicker tread doesn't really improve flat resistance, at least in the range we are looking at. (Very thin treads do flat more easily, and very, very thick treads may offer extra protection.) Generally speaking, wider tires that run at lower pressures have far fewer flats than narrower tires that run at higher pressures. My friend Ryan used to have a flat every other ride on his 700C x 25 mm tires. When he got a new bike with Hetres, and more recently, Babyshoe Pass tires, he gets a handful of flats a year – and he rides a lot. Flat frequency depends on many factors. The biggest one is where you ride, both in terms of the roads you use and where you position yourself on the road. If you ride on shoulders of busy highways, you'll get many flats from all the debris that accumulates there. The same applies if you hug the curb when riding in the city. You get far fewer flats on small backroads, and if you ride further from the curb in the city. If you mostly ride in the travel lane of cars, you'll get few flats, because the cars sweep the roadway clear of debris. (The debris gets flung in the air and lands randomly all over the place. The debris that lands outside the travel lane remains there, whereas the debris in the travel lane gets flung in the air again by the next car, until all debris has landed outside the travel lane.) That is why I don't get flats touring on little backroads. And I get few flats in the city, since I ride at least 3 feet from the curb. I wrote more about that in this blog post: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/preventing-flat-tires/ Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 8:17:38 PM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote: The new Compass tires seem to have a bit more tread thickness than the Grand Bois tires, IMO. I think they are a little more flat resistant than the Grand Bois. That is not to say that you won't get flats, but I think it's a reasonable amount. On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 10:10 PM, Hugh Smitham hughs...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: https://flic.kr/p/pgpfKC https://flic.kr/p/hUrN6m The first link is the Hetre's casing don't see anything special and doesn't seem substantial. When mounted They rode great. I do try to avoid debris but I'm not fanatical about it, generally more concerned with other large obstacles . I rode them on a fire road in the San Gabriel's which has granite structures exposed which I suspect is different from Jan's gravel roads. The second link is the gash from said ride...tore then the tube squeezed out and ruptured. Jan did sell me replacement at cost, so I'll try em again just not on our brand of off road. Also realize I'm hijacking this post, my apologies. But this tire gets me going. -Hugh Los Angeles, CA On Nov 11, 2014 7:37 PM, Eric Norris campyo...@me.com javascript: wrote: I’ve been to Seattle and ridden there. The roads don’t *seem* to be magically free of debris, but that’s the only way to explain Jan’s run of good luck. The GBs are nice tires—I really like them—but in my experience they are just as prone to flatting as anything else out there. Maybe more. —Eric N campyo...@me.com javascript: www.campyonly.com www.wheelsnorth.org Blog: http://campyonlyguy.blogspot.com Twitter: @campyonlyguy On Nov 11, 2014, at 7:14 PM, hsmitham hughs...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: Eric, I don't buy Jan's Hetre's flat resistance. He can come ride em in LA and see how he fairs. I know, I know others swear by them. It must just be my bad luck. Hugh Los Angeles, CA On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 8:09:26 AM UTC-8, Eric Norris wrote: FWIW, my Hetres seem very adept at picking stuff up. Monsieur Blériot’s rear tire (worn enough to have lost most of the molded tread ribs) snagged both of these items in the same ride on Sunday. The straight piece I’m holding in a gloved hand went through the sidewall and caused a flat; the other was embedded in the tire about 20 miles later but somehow didn’t damage the tube. https://flic.kr/p/q2b95K https://flic.kr/p/pZ5DX5 Jan Heine reports excellent flat resistance with Grand Bois tires; he should come ride the mean streets of Sacramento County sometime. —Eric N campyo...@me.com www.campyonly.com www.wheelsnorth.org Blog: http://campyonlyguy.blogspot.com Twitter: @campyonlyguy On Nov 11, 2014, at 6:39 AM, Shoji Takahashi shoji.t...@gmail.com wrote: Are you using new-ish tires? New tires seem a bit more tacky and can pick up pebbles
Re: [RBW] Re: What's the safety rule for metal fender size/clearance?
Agreed. I should have written leading or front edge. Especially when mounting tire wipers, they should go on the trailing (front) edge of the fender, so they don't get sucked into the fender when bigger debris hits them... I apologize for any confusion. Jan Heine Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com On Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:52:44 PM UTC-7, Anton Tutter wrote: Not to nitpick, but my engineering background compels me to explain that when looking at fender/wheel dynamics, the trailing edge would be, counterintuitively, the front edge of the fender, not the rear edge. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: What's the safety rule for metal fender size/clearance?
Time for one last correction. Debris hits the leading or _rear_ edge of the fender and either must go through or be slow enough that it falls back onto the road without collapsing the fender. Tire wipers are mounted on the trailing or _front_ edge of the fender. Sorry for the continued confusion - I hope it's correct this time around! Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com On Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:40:56 PM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote: Agreed. I should have written leading or front edge. Especially when mounting tire wipers, they should go on the trailing (front) edge of the fender, so they don't get sucked into the fender when bigger debris hits them... I apologize for any confusion. Jan Heine Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com On Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:52:44 PM UTC-7, Anton Tutter wrote: Not to nitpick, but my engineering background compels me to explain that when looking at fender/wheel dynamics, the trailing edge would be, counterintuitively, the front edge of the fender, not the rear edge. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: What's the safety rule for metal fender size/clearance?
Most of the classic French randonneur machines had very *generous* fender clearances, and that, together with the wide, and thus stiff, fenders, seems to be the reason why there are no reports of fender accidents. Generally, more clearance is better. At some point, it doesn't look nice, and you get toe overlap problems, though... The idea is that small debris can be accelerated so much that it will collapse a fender - and you want it to go through the fender instead. Large stuff cannot pick up quite so much speed, and so it'll bang against the trailing edge of the fender, and then fall back onto the road. In most fender accidents I have seen, insufficient (too tight) clearances were at least a contributing factor. Generally speaking, metal fenders seem to be safer than plastic ones. Even the quick release of plastic fenders cannot prevent all accidents... Fender accidents are rare, but if they happen, they can be nasty. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] So what is standard Q for...
Today, most racing doubles have a Q factor of 146-148 mm. Campagnolo is very consistent at 146, others vary a bit. Road triples usually are about 10 mm wider. For example, our Rene Herse doubles have a Q factor of 142 mm when set up with a 43.5 mm chainline. (I run mine with a narrower chainline, since I usually ride on the – relatively small – big ring, so I get a Q of 139 mm). The R. Herse triple is designed for a 44 mm chainline, and you get a Q factor of 153 mm. If your bike requires a wider chainline because the chainstays aren't optimally designed, then you obviously get a wider Q (and not-quite-optimal shifting). Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. Seattle WA USA http://www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] New Compass tires?
Perhaps it's useful to clarify: Having ridden the same bikes with 700C x 32 mm and 700C x 38 mm tires, I prefer the wider tires. The extra air inside and the extra rubber on the road really transform the bike. However, if I were to get a new bike, I'd still spec it for 650B, as I prefer the handling of the slightly smaller wheels. Too bad if that statement slows the sales of our Barlow Pass 700C x 38 mm tires... *Bicycle Quarterly* always has been about honest reports of our findings, not about boosting sales. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] New Compass tires?
Rod, thank you for summarizing it so well. Yes, the extra cush and grip of wide tires trumps the slower handling. That handling issue can be positive - some bike can use some calming – but it occurs with all geometries, whether low-, mid- or high-trail bikes (however you define those). So yes, if I am buying a new bike and want nimble handling, 650B x 42 mm. If I have a 700C bike, 700C x 38 mm will improve it in most cases and for most tastes. However, there are some drawbacks to wider tires - see this blog post http://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/the-downsides-of-wide-tires/ from a few years ago. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly On Thursday, September 4, 2014 9:15:24 AM UTC-7, Rod Holland wrote: I fear Jan is requiring that we think of two or three things at once. Previously, he's laid out ranges of ideal tire size for specific wheel sizes, based on the effects of rotational inertia on steering, among other things (tire weight, air volume). For 700C, 32mm was the top of the range, driven principally by steering considerations. However, he just said that he prefers the 38mm tires over 32mm tires on 700C due to increased air volume and contact patch. This isn't a negation of the analysis based on steering, but rather (seems to me, Jan may have intended something else) a rider's pragmatic judgement that the virtues of big air and big contact trump a little bit of vice in the steering department. He further comments that he still prefers 650B for the width domain that includes 38mm and 42mm, presumably because it gives you the virtues of wide tires without paying a steering tax. Jan's guidance seems to depend on whether you're buying a tire, or buying a bike AND a tire. rod On Thursday, September 4, 2014 11:36:58 AM UTC-4, Philip Williamson wrote: Jan, do you prefer the bike handling with 32mm tires (over 38mm tires) for mid and high trail bikes, as well as for your low trail bikes? Philip www.biketinker.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] New Compass tires?
Interesting observation about the rim width. I am running the 650B x 42 mm Babyshoe Pass Extralights both on 20 mm and 23 mm rims, and cannot notice a difference, either on pavement or on gravel, even when running the wheels on the same bike... Regarding the cuts, it's impossible to say much without seeing the tires, but generally, a piece of casing is as strong as the casing it replaces. Your rocks must be sharper than ours – my tires have many gravel miles on them, but no issues at all. Or perhaps it's just the luck of the draw? Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. On Thursday, September 4, 2014 4:17:10 PM UTC-7, Metin Uz wrote: I liked everything except how the wheel seemed to want to dig in at a sharp switchback. I built a new set of wheels with H+Son Archetype rims, and the tires behaved much better on the wider 23mm rims. I am now convinced that 38mm tires are too wide for standard (21mm) road rims. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] New Compass tires?
I still believe that for tires 38 mm and wider, 650B offers more nimble handling, while also improving the packaging of the tire between the chainstays of the bike. Two things made us re-consider our opinion on wide 700C tires: 1. We all ride the bikes we have, not the ones we wish to have, and there are many, many bikes that can be improved with a set of supple, wide 700C tires. In fact, we just tested such a machine http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/autumn-2014-bicycle-quarterly/ (Ritchey Swiss Cross) that went from a good machine to a great one with the addition of these tires. 2. Some riders may prefer a more stable machine, that doesn't react to small inputs as much, and thus works better with a firmer grip on the handlebars. Anyhow, the tires are available, and we now hope that we'll amortize the tooling costs eventually. It's a big leap of faith to offer tires that are different from anything previously available (i.e., wide and supple 700C tires), and the future will tell whether they'll be a success. 55 or 60 mm-wide 700C tires: Packaging those becomes difficult, unless you go to mountain bike cranks with very wide tread (Q factor). You basically need to build a 29er, and that isn't really what Compass Bicycles is about. We are about road bikes, even if those roads often are poorly surfaced or gravel. Hence we use the term Allroad, but the road part – as in spirited ride and nimble handling – is very important to us. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 7:22:30 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote: On 09/02/2014 09:43 PM, justin...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: I doubt it. I was surprised to see 700x38 coming from Jan due to his stance on larger diameter 700c tires. But there was a steady stream of pleading, coaxing and cajoling, begging him to do a 700x38 here and on the iBOB list. 55 and 60, not so much. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Attn: Big mileage riders
When I was a poor college student, I tended to ride tires until they were threadbare. (Or should that be tread-bare?) Then I realized that the cost of emergency room visits far exceeds the cost of even the most expensive FMB tubulars (not that I was riding those). To say nothing about the cost of patches and aggravation of fixing more flats as the tires get thin and worn. I started replacing my tires when they started getting more flats than usual and felt thin when I took them off the rim. Sheldon's point was that if you run your tires down until they blow out, you'd be better off with a rear blowout. My point is that you don't want any blowouts. It's not worth risking an accident to squeeze the last dollar or two of life out of your tire. So I recommend replacing your tires before they blow out. To do that, you need to keep an eye on them. If you have fenders, you don't ever see the rear tire tread unless you lay down the bike or remove the wheel. Thus, I recommended putting the new tire on the rear. The front tire is always visible - even with full fenders. Thus, you'll see when the tread pattern disappears, and you'll definitely see if the casing shows through the rubber. And obviously, when the front tire is thin, check the rear one, too! Please don't try to set mileage records, but be reasonable. You don't drive your car and try to see how many miles you can squeeze out of a tank of gas when you go through Death Valley, either. You fill up at the gas station with the sign Last gas for 180 miles and then enjoy the scenery without worrying about whether you'll make it back to civilization on the last drop of gas. These days, I just replace each tire individually when it gets worn. Currently, the new tire is on the front, but once the rear tire gets worn, there will be a newer tire on the rear. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Compass 650b 38 vs. 650b 42 mm tires question.
I'd recommend the Babyshoe Pass 650B x 42 mm if you have room. If 42 mm tires are a squeeze, take the 38 mm Loup Loup Pass. There are many bikes (early 650B Rivs, Kogswell P/R, etc.) that cannot accept the full 42 mm Demi-Ballon with adequate clearances, especially if you use fenders. For those, we developed the Loup Loup Pass. Both are extraordinary tires, and you cannot go wrong with either. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Grand Bois Cypres tires, a review.
I totally agree. As our research has shown, tire pressure is much less important than most of us used to think. This is especially true with supple tires. When we tested a Vittoria CX, it no longer held its line in corners because the sidewalls collapsed before the rolling resistance goes up significantly. These 25 mm tires had roughly the same rolling resistance at 70 psi as at 130 psi, and everywhere in between. So start with Berto's chart http://janheine.wordpress.com/2010/10/18/science-and-bicycles-1-tires-and-pressure/and then experiment. If you feel like you could let out some air to get a more cushy ride on bumpy roads, do so. If you feel the tire sidewalls starting to collapse under hard cornering, increase the pressure a bit. If your tires feel great, just ride them. That's all. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com On Thursday, June 26, 2014 8:09:30 PM UTC-7, Philip Williamson wrote: I think that's over complicating things. It's just a guideline. If you end up with 25% tire drop instead of the ideal 15%, under hard braking on a rough downhill... Who cares? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Grand Bois Cypres tires, a review.
When you brake hard, you put 100% of your weight on the front wheel. With wide tires that run at relatively low pressures, that determines your tire pressure more than the load on the tire. I find that about 10% less pressure in the front than the rear works best for me on 42 mm Extralight tires... Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 12:58:00 PM UTC-7, Dave Johnston wrote: Why are everybodies F R tire pressures so close? Are you really that centered over the wheels? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Grand Bois Cypres tires, a review.
Here is a photo of what happens when you brake hard, even if you move your weight back: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/how-to-brake-on-a-bicycle/ Since the rear wheel isn't touching the ground, 100% of the weight rests on the front wheel. BTW, the rider did not go over the bars, this was simply a controlled stop with maximum brake power during our brake tests. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Optimal tire pressure questions...
I totally agree with you. You also have to know that Berto's curve is an average of a lot of tires he tested. I have his raw data, and different tires deflect very differently. A supple tire will give you 20% tire drop for the same pressure where an ultra-stiff one gives you 5% or less. (In fact, one critic on rec.bicycles.tech complained that there was no way to get 15% tire drop, even with zero air pressure. I suspect he did something else wrong, but part of the problem was that he was using Specialized Armadillo tires!) In the end, this brings up a much bigger question: Do we work from first principles forward, or do we work backward from our subjective experience of riding on the road? At Bicycle Quarterly, we start with the ride, and then devise tests to confirm that our subjective impressions hold up under rigorous scientific scrutiny. Bicycles are so complex that this seems to be the best approach. All attempts to work from first principles forward have not yielded useful results, as far as applicability to real-world conditions is concerned. So in the case of 15% tire drop, we tested tires at various pressures and looked at where the drop-off in performance occurred. We found that this roughly correlates to Berto's 15% tire drop. So we recommend Berto's chart as a starting point for experimentation. However, it's only a starting point... For example, I ride my wider tires at higher pressures than Berto's chart would indicate, if you extrapolate it. With the extremely supple casings, the tires otherwise tend to collapse under hard cornering... Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 9:27:06 PM UTC-7, ted wrote: Which is an appeal to authority and a seems to work ok where we have used it. Which is fine so far as it goes, but its not much to go by for guessing how applicable either extrapolations of Berto's curves or the 15% rule of thumb are outside the domain where we have experience using them. I hope I don't come across as to critical. I have pulled the equation for the regression fit of Berto's curves from the spreadsheet and like using it. But I suspect I would do as well (practically speaking) if I just let air out of the tires till they squished a good bit when I got on the bike, and then just rode it and adjusted for feel. On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 8:57:33 PM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote: Originally, the 15% drop came from the tire companies to whom Frank Berto talked. So Frank then just tried to figure out how to get that value. Our initial tire testing indicated that somewhere around 15% tire drop was the point where performance and comfort were optimized. Since then, we found that at least for supple tires, even lower pressures don't seem to slow the bike down, so it matters even less. However, even today, the 15% tire drop values from the chart are a good starting point for experimenting with tire pressure... Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 4:19:49 PM UTC-7, ted wrote: But I think the real question is whats so special about 15% drop. I can't recall seeing any supporting argument / evidence for it being optimal. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Optimal tire pressure questions...
The minimum inflation values are pretty arbitrary. I run my Hetres at 35-45 psi... For the Compass tires, we don't list minimum inflation values, because they are too confusing. The maximum inflation really is the maximum safe pressure - don't exceed it! For the minimum, you can go lower. Once the tire really starts to deflect a lot and washes out in corners, you are too low. Also, the casing threads will start to break if you run pressures that are too low. You'll see it as a pattern in the sidewall. If just one thread is broken (which usually happens), the tire still is fine to ride... But this happens at ridiculously low pressures. The one time to pay attention is you have a flat. Don't ride it until you roll on the rim, otherwise, you'll break a few threads in the casing. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ Do Hetres have inflation pressure ranges on the sidewalls? Yes, the 650B Grand Bois Extra Leger says 55-75 psi. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Optimal tire pressure questions...
Originally, the 15% drop came from the tire companies to whom Frank Berto talked. So Frank then just tried to figure out how to get that value. Our initial tire testing indicated that somewhere around 15% tire drop was the point where performance and comfort were optimized. Since then, we found that at least for supple tires, even lower pressures don't seem to slow the bike down, so it matters even less. However, even today, the 15% tire drop values from the chart are a good starting point for experimenting with tire pressure... Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 4:19:49 PM UTC-7, ted wrote: But I think the real question is whats so special about 15% drop. I can't recall seeing any supporting argument / evidence for it being optimal. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] 1952 Rene Herse - the bike that started the current 650B trend in the U.S.
I recently got to ride a 1952 Rene Herse again - the bike that persuaded us of the merits of wide 650B tires... which then were popularized by Grant and Rivendell. It was interesting to see how it felt now, when bikes like these no longer are exotic, but relatively commonplace. I wrote about it on our blog, with lots of photos: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/06/09/the-650b-ancestor-rene-herse-randonneur/ Enjoy! Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: RIV The Oregon Outback
I agree that if you have to walk significant distances, you'd lose more than you gain on the parts. However, even Ira on his 38 mm tires didn't walk, except one steep climb to preserve his legs. I walked a few more of the really steep rollers toward the end, but it was a concern for my knees, not tire width, that forced me off the bike. Wider tires would have been a little faster on the really sandy parts, but probably not much... Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly On Thursday, June 5, 2014 8:56:31 PM UTC-7, Anne Paulson wrote: It depends on how bad the performance is on the remaining 10%. I've seen the pictures of the Oregon Outback route, and I understand why a lot of the riders wanted something wider than 42 mm tires. If I were riding that route on 42 mm tires, I'd end up walking a lot. I'd give up a lot of speed in a bike tire in order not to have to walk 35 miles. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: RIV The Oregon Outback
A wider smooth tire with an extra-supple casing... so the Schwalbes wouldn't be such a great option. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. 2116 Western Ave. Seattle WA 98121 www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Wednesday, June 4, 2014 8:20:04 PM UTC-7, Anne Paulson wrote: So then a better choice would be a wider smooth tire? Like, for example, the Schwalbe Super-Motos? On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 7:42 AM, Jan Heine hei...@earthlink.net javascript: wrote: My 42 mm Compass Babyshoe Pass Extralight tires were great on 85% of the gravel sections. There were a number of places where the gravel was very sandy and soft, where everybody seemed to have trouble. Wider tires would have been useful there. On the other hand, 30% of the ride was on paved roads, where any knobbies would slow you down considerably. It's no coincidence that the two fastest finishers were on road tires (38 and 42 mm wide). My current hypothesis is that wider high-performance road tires (if they were in fact available) would be ideal for this event, but considering the currently available options, I'd choose the same tires again if I was going for a fast time. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 8:46:17 PM UTC-7, Mike Schiller wrote: Jan said after the ride that he would have preferred something fatter than 42 mm for the dirt sections. I think a low profile knobby in like 52-56 mm wide would be ideal. Schwalbe makes some super plush XC racing tires like the Thunder Burt that would be great for this ride. I know of a few people who used these and were very pleased with the performance on this ride. ~mike Carlsbad Ca. On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 8:58:52 AM UTC-7, Anne Paulson wrote: Here are pictures of some of the bikes that did the organized Oregon Outback. https://www.facebook.com/jamesnathanjones/media_set? set=a.10203614505580588.1073741833.1154446016type=1 What tires were you thinking of using for the route? The 1.9 smooth Schwalbes I have on my Atlantis seem like a tiny bit of underbiking, and the 3 tires on my Krampus seem like overbiking. Jan Heine did the route, very fast, on smooth 42mm Compass Babyshoe Pass tires on his randonneur bike. I'd be happier with more rubber and disc brakes than on a randonneur bike, I'm pretty sure. On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 8:44 AM, velomann velo...@gmail.com wrote: When are you going? I'm considering for later June myself but don't want to go it alone. Mike On Monday, June 2, 2014 9:09:55 PM UTC-7, Antonioni Vicente wrote: Any Rivsters out there ever ridden this route? Tons of stuff on Velodirt.com but as usual- seeking the Riv School's input. An Atlantis and a '93 XO-3 soon to tackle it... Thanks y'all. -ant -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- Anne Paulson It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript:. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- Anne Paulson It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: RIV The Oregon Outback
The key is not to give up performance on 90% of the course to gain a little on the remaining 10%. Jan Heine On Thursday, June 5, 2014 9:47:30 AM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote: A wider smooth tire with an extra-supple casing... so the Schwalbes wouldn't be such a great option. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. 2116 Western Ave. Seattle WA 98121 www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Wednesday, June 4, 2014 8:20:04 PM UTC-7, Anne Paulson wrote: So then a better choice would be a wider smooth tire? Like, for example, the Schwalbe Super-Motos? On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 7:42 AM, Jan Heine hei...@earthlink.net wrote: My 42 mm Compass Babyshoe Pass Extralight tires were great on 85% of the gravel sections. There were a number of places where the gravel was very sandy and soft, where everybody seemed to have trouble. Wider tires would have been useful there. On the other hand, 30% of the ride was on paved roads, where any knobbies would slow you down considerably. It's no coincidence that the two fastest finishers were on road tires (38 and 42 mm wide). My current hypothesis is that wider high-performance road tires (if they were in fact available) would be ideal for this event, but considering the currently available options, I'd choose the same tires again if I was going for a fast time. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 8:46:17 PM UTC-7, Mike Schiller wrote: Jan said after the ride that he would have preferred something fatter than 42 mm for the dirt sections. I think a low profile knobby in like 52-56 mm wide would be ideal. Schwalbe makes some super plush XC racing tires like the Thunder Burt that would be great for this ride. I know of a few people who used these and were very pleased with the performance on this ride. ~mike Carlsbad Ca. On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 8:58:52 AM UTC-7, Anne Paulson wrote: Here are pictures of some of the bikes that did the organized Oregon Outback. https://www.facebook.com/jamesnathanjones/media_set? set=a.10203614505580588.1073741833.1154446016type=1 What tires were you thinking of using for the route? The 1.9 smooth Schwalbes I have on my Atlantis seem like a tiny bit of underbiking, and the 3 tires on my Krampus seem like overbiking. Jan Heine did the route, very fast, on smooth 42mm Compass Babyshoe Pass tires on his randonneur bike. I'd be happier with more rubber and disc brakes than on a randonneur bike, I'm pretty sure. On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 8:44 AM, velomann velo...@gmail.com wrote: When are you going? I'm considering for later June myself but don't want to go it alone. Mike On Monday, June 2, 2014 9:09:55 PM UTC-7, Antonioni Vicente wrote: Any Rivsters out there ever ridden this route? Tons of stuff on Velodirt.com but as usual- seeking the Riv School's input. An Atlantis and a '93 XO-3 soon to tackle it... Thanks y'all. -ant -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- Anne Paulson It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- Anne Paulson It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: RIV The Oregon Outback
My 42 mm Compass Babyshoe Pass Extralight tires were great on 85% of the gravel sections. There were a number of places where the gravel was very sandy and soft, where everybody seemed to have trouble. Wider tires would have been useful there. On the other hand, 30% of the ride was on paved roads, where any knobbies would slow you down considerably. It's no coincidence that the two fastest finishers were on road tires (38 and 42 mm wide). My current hypothesis is that wider high-performance road tires (if they were in fact available) would be ideal for this event, but considering the currently available options, I'd choose the same tires again if I was going for a fast time. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 8:46:17 PM UTC-7, Mike Schiller wrote: Jan said after the ride that he would have preferred something fatter than 42 mm for the dirt sections. I think a low profile knobby in like 52-56 mm wide would be ideal. Schwalbe makes some super plush XC racing tires like the Thunder Burt that would be great for this ride. I know of a few people who used these and were very pleased with the performance on this ride. ~mike Carlsbad Ca. On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 8:58:52 AM UTC-7, Anne Paulson wrote: Here are pictures of some of the bikes that did the organized Oregon Outback. https://www.facebook.com/jamesnathanjones/media_set?set=a.10203614505580588.1073741833.1154446016type=1 What tires were you thinking of using for the route? The 1.9 smooth Schwalbes I have on my Atlantis seem like a tiny bit of underbiking, and the 3 tires on my Krampus seem like overbiking. Jan Heine did the route, very fast, on smooth 42mm Compass Babyshoe Pass tires on his randonneur bike. I'd be happier with more rubber and disc brakes than on a randonneur bike, I'm pretty sure. On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 8:44 AM, velomann velo...@gmail.com wrote: When are you going? I'm considering for later June myself but don't want to go it alone. Mike On Monday, June 2, 2014 9:09:55 PM UTC-7, Antonioni Vicente wrote: Any Rivsters out there ever ridden this route? Tons of stuff on Velodirt.com but as usual- seeking the Riv School's input. An Atlantis and a '93 XO-3 soon to tackle it... Thanks y'all. -ant -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- Anne Paulson It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: It looks like now Rivendell stocks the Soma Grand Randonneur tires
You really need to look at the cost-per-mile. A Grand Bois Hetre lasts 5000+ miles for most riders. So the cost per mile is much lower than for most tires. The Compass Babyshoe Pass, Loup Loup Pass (650B) and Barlow Pass (700C) have almost as much tread in the center, so it will last roughly as long. (We removed tread on the shoulders of the tire, where it doesn't wear, to make the tires lighter.) Of course, a Marathon or something super-beefy will give you even lower cost-per-mile, but if you can get a more enjoyable, fun ride for an extra 1-2 cents per mile, I consider that worth the cost. With some event tires that are even lighter, your cost-per-mile will go up a lot, because you cannot use the last millimeter of tread. In fact, some of the super-superlight tires are so thin that I'd consider them close to the wear limit right out of the package. I wrote about the compromises inherent in making tires here http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/04/23/the-art-of-compromise/. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: It looks like now Rivendell stocks the Soma Grand Randonneur tires
Correction: I realized that I mis-spoke. The Hetres do have more tread even in the center. I expect the Compass Babyshoe Pass to come within 700 miles of the longevity of the Hetre. I am still working on wearing out my first set of Babyshoe Pass, and that is a prototype set I've been riding for six months now. Either way, per mile, none of these tires are expensive. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. On Saturday, May 31, 2014 7:11:57 AM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote: The Compass Babyshoe Pass, Loup Loup Pass (650B) and Barlow Pass (700C) have almost as much tread in the center, so it will last roughly as long. (We removed tread on the shoulders of the tire, where it doesn't wear, to make the tires lighter.) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Pedal Strike - LongLow
I'd consider getting different pedals. The lean angle allowed by pedals varies significantly, and if you have some wide pedals with big cages, you can pick up a lot of clearance... If you have pedals that allow a decent lean angle and still strike your pedals, then I'd consider coasting instead. Pedaling around fast corners is not a good habit. I learned this when racing, on a criterium course in Portland on wide streets. I broke away and was hoping to stay away until the finish. In a few corners, my pedals lightly touched the ground during every lap, until, with one lap to go, I touched a little harder and crashed. I think it was Greg LeMond who said that if you can pedal through a corner, it means you weren't going fast enough on the straights. At slow speeds, you often have to pedal around corners just to stay upright. In those situations, you aren't leaning much, and toe overlap is your big problem, not pedal strike. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] re: tires - I could be imagining things, but...I am thinking Cypres is good
Grand Bois changed their tire design significantly based on our tire tests. At first, they used a casing that was similar to the Rolly-Poly/Jack Brown/Maxy-Fasty. After our tests, they went back to the drawing board and improved the design. The latest step in that direction are the Extra Léger tires. The wire-bead version was the original version. History has shown that they could be – and have been – improved. Disclosure: It's probably well-known by now that Bicycle Quarterly's sister company, Compass Bicycles Ltd., imports Grand Bois tires... Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Monday, May 12, 2014 9:16:54 AM UTC-7, Fullylugged wrote: I have been running Cypres on my Riv Road for a few years and like them a lot. The kevlar bead ones. There was also a steel bead at one time that I tried and did not like. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] re: tires - I could be imagining things, but...I am thinking Cypres is good
I think Steve is right, it would be hard to improve upon FMB. Their tubulars are pretty amazing. I used them in 'cross last season, and they were a dream. For their road tires, I think the tread could be improved (they use Challenge's treads for their wider tires), mostly to increase the longevity. Unfortunately, the Compass treads cannot be separated from the tires, so it's not possible to use them on an FMB tubular. FMB doesn't make clinchers. François Marie (the FM of FMB) and I have talked about it, and in theory, it's possible, but the investment is considerable, and the learning curve is steep. It seems that at the moment, they are more than busy, and let's face it, the Compass Extralight tires are so nice that it is hard to see a large market for a tire that is twice as expensive, but not much faster, smoother or more comfortable. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Monday, May 12, 2014 11:34:47 AM UTC-7, Brewster Fong wrote: On Monday, May 12, 2014 11:22:09 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote: On 05/12/2014 02:16 PM, Brewster Fong wrote: On Monday, May 12, 2014 10:37:43 AM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote: Grand Bois changed their tire design significantly based on our tire tests. At first, they used a casing that was similar to the Rolly-Poly/Jack Brown/Maxy-Fasty. After our tests, they went back to the drawing board and improved the design. The latest step in that direction are the Extra Léger tires. The wire-bead version was the original version. History has shown that they could be – and have been – improved. Disclosure: It's probably well-known by now that Bicycle Quarterly's sister company, Compass Bicycles Ltd., imports Grand Bois tires... Jan, Are you planning on coming out with a tubular tire? I ask because several of my friends are into these new lightweight carbon tubular wheelsets (e.g., 1100 tp 1200 grams for the wheelset) and a set of super fast tires based on your finding might make them even faster! And, let's face it, who doesn't like light, fast wheels?! :) Let us know. Thanks! How could Compass improve upon the FMB? Good question! However, Jan makes his GB tires sounds so much faster than any clincher out there that I'm thinking he could work his magic on tubulars too! May be another question is whether FMB makes a clincher tire and if so, how does it compare to the GB?! Good Luck! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] re: tires - I could be imagining things, but...I am thinking Cypres is good
That is correct. There has been a lot of discussion between Grand Bois, Compass and Panaracer about how to make the ultimate clincher tires... Jan Heine On Monday, May 12, 2014 4:38:30 PM UTC-7, ted wrote: Do I recall correctly that Jan has said elsewhere that the EL casings were developed from the mfg's high end tubular casing? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Compass Barlow Pass tires
Take this with a grain of salt, since we are the makers of these tires... but we only sell what we use, and we use our bikes hard. We've ridden these tires (and the similar Grand Bois Extra Légers) on gravel for many hundreds of miles, and they work very well. I put them on my son's bike, and he also hasn't had problems on some pretty rough terrain. Check out http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/a-winter-adventure/ and http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/riding-to-forest-road-6700/ On mud and snow, you'd want knobbies, and on big, sharp rocks, you need stiffer sidewalls that don't cut so easily, but everywhere else, I have no qualms riding these. The one place they don't do well is highway shoulders with all the steel wires that accumulate there... Best, Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Saturday, May 10, 2014 3:11:27 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote: I am debating getting a pair of the Barlow Pass tires for my long meandoneering rides. What has folks' experience been with them on dirt roads with loose gravel/sand? Also could someone compare and contrast the ultralight casing with the standard casing? With abandon, Patrick -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Compass Barlow Pass tires
On Sunday, May 11, 2014 10:20:22 AM UTC-7, Philip Williamson wrote: Do you find tire savers help protect against wire flats on the Barlow Pass tires? We get so few flats that we don't bother with tire wipers (aka tire savers) any longer on wide tires... However, there is no reason why they shouldn't help. Jan Heine www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Tire noise, way OT
You are right, of course. Tread patterns and construction do affect rolling resistance - just look at the Col de la Vie tires which use the same casing as the Pasela, but the micro-knob pattern makes them significantly slower... It's just that unless you go to knobbies, the tread pattern isn't as significant as other factors, but as you point out, that doesn't make it unimportant. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Sunday, May 11, 2014 5:12:20 PM UTC-7, ted wrote: Per your results, a Nifty Swifty is ~3% slower than a Maxy Fasty, and wearing 1.3 mm of tread off a Rolly-Poly makes it ~2% faster. RBW describes the difference between their stronger and lighter tire variants (i.e. Nifty-Swify/Maxy-Fasty, Ruffy-Tuffy/Rolly-Poly, JB Blue/Green) as stronger casing, kevlar belt and thicker tread*. In the case of the Ruffy-Tuffy the extra tread thickness is said to be 1mm. Scaling your ~2% for 1.3mm result to 1mm yields ~1.5% which is about 1/2 of the 3% difference you found between the Maxy Fasty and the Nifty Swifty. Presumably the other half is due to the kevlar belt and casing differences. Your results indicate that, for RBW's tires, the rolling resistance impacts of changes in casing and tread are similar. That supports the hypothesis that rolling resistance is effected by (among other things) tread characteristics. I suspect the 17% difference you measured between the fastest and slowest tires you tested says more about variation in tire design philosophies (which is interesting in its own right), than it does about tire phenomenology (which is what I was commenting on). Re your more practical day to day rubber meats the road comment: I concur that supple tires are great. I am very pleased with the GB tires I am currently using. When they wear out I expect I will buy new Compass tires to replace them. But that is a bit off topic. ted * It's just like a Nifty Swifty without the extra ultra-duty casing, kevlar belt, extra tread and it has a folding kevlar bead, not a wire one., It's a Roll-y Pol-y with a kevlar belt and an extra millimeter of tread thickness., The GREEN version is like a plumper Roll-y Pol-y, in that it has a normal casing and tread, with no beefening-up features (thicker casing, kevlar belt, extra rubber) that would add weight., The Blue version is the same volume, but has an extra strong casing, kevlar belt, and thicker tread, so it weighs more. On Saturday, May 10, 2014 6:16:36 AM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote: On Friday, May 9, 2014 3:02:01 PM UTC-7, ted wrote: without measuring the speed of tires with the same casing and varying treads I think declaring tread less significant than casing from a design standpoint is premature. You make a good point - you need good measurements before you make claims. We did measure the same tire with different tread thicknesses. That test is easy - you compare an almost new tire (we rode all tires for about 50 miles to make sure they were well-seated and that the casing threads had the opportunity to relax) and a well-worn one. A worn-out set of Rolly-Poly tires with 1.8 mm tread+casing thickness was 2.1% faster than new set of the same model with 3.1 mm tread+casing. So it's not insignificant, but it pales in comparison to the differences you get from a more supple casing. And the worn-out tires wouldn't last you through Paris-Brest-Paris or other long ride... When we talk about tire performance, we don't just throw out conjecture and hypotheses. We spent maybe 100 hours testing tires, analysing data, performing statistical analyses, etc. The effects we report are real, and they are significant. Tires make the biggest difference at lower speeds, where the difference between the fastest and slowest tires we tested was about 17% in speed for the same power output. Faster riders have more wind resistance to deal with, so they obtain less of an advantage from faster tires, but it's still the biggest factor in the performance of your bike. Perhaps even more important is the way the bike feels with supple, fast tires. To me and many others, supple tires greatly contribute to the joy of riding. If you really are interested in the topic, I suggest you look up the back issues of *Bicycle Quarterly* where we reported the results. You find an index by topic herehttp://www.bikequarterly.com/BQ_subject_index.html, and perhaps your local library has a subscription. If not, ask them to order the magazine - many libraries already do - or you can order the relevant back issues from us. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
[RBW] Re: Tire noise, way OT
On Friday, May 9, 2014 3:02:01 PM UTC-7, ted wrote: without measuring the speed of tires with the same casing and varying treads I think declaring tread less significant than casing from a design standpoint is premature. You make a good point - you need good measurements before you make claims. We did measure the same tire with different tread thicknesses. That test is easy - you compare an almost new tire (we rode all tires for about 50 miles to make sure they were well-seated and that the casing threads had the opportunity to relax) and a well-worn one. A worn-out set of Rolly-Poly tires with 1.8 mm tread+casing thickness was 2.1% faster than new set of the same model with 3.1 mm tread+casing. So it's not insignificant, but it pales in comparison to the differences you get from a more supple casing. And the worn-out tires wouldn't last you through Paris-Brest-Paris or other long ride... When we talk about tire performance, we don't just throw out conjecture and hypotheses. We spent maybe 100 hours testing tires, analysing data, performing statistical analyses, etc. The effects we report are real, and they are significant. Tires make the biggest difference at lower speeds, where the difference between the fastest and slowest tires we tested was about 17% in speed for the same power output. Faster riders have more wind resistance to deal with, so they obtain less of an advantage from faster tires, but it's still the biggest factor in the performance of your bike. Perhaps even more important is the way the bike feels with supple, fast tires. To me and many others, supple tires greatly contribute to the joy of riding. If you really are interested in the topic, I suggest you look up the back issues of *Bicycle Quarterly* where we reported the results. You find an index by topic herehttp://www.bikequarterly.com/BQ_subject_index.html, and perhaps your local library has a subscription. If not, ask them to order the magazine - many libraries already do - or you can order the relevant back issues from us. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Tire noise, way OT
We didn't test the Jack Browns, but we did test the Nifty-Swifty and Maxy-Fasty, which are the same tires, only in 650B. The Nifty-Swifty was about 3% slower. However, compared to other tires, both were among the slower tires we tested, indicating that the casing has a much greater influence on the speed than the tread thickness and extra puncture-proof layer... at least for tires with a relatively stiff casing. On a supple tire, the puncture-proof layer might slow you down more, simply because it defeats the supple casing. If the casing is already stiff, then adding a stiff layer might not do as much. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Friday, May 9, 2014 12:49:40 PM UTC-7, ted wrote: If you include the rubber in your definition of casing. I am fairly sure research has shown that slick tires have less rolling resistance than tires with a modest tread (I can't speak to the size of the difference though). Similarly tread compound has been shown to have an impact. Tires with light casings tend to have light treads, and vice versa. Jan may have tested Jack Brown tires in both Blue and Green variants thereby measuring the effect of the casing reinforcement (as I am not a BQ subscriber I don't know). Has anybody tested say the BG Rock n' Road and a tire built with the same casing but a tread more like what the new Compass tires have? It is very hard for me to believe that a thicker heavier layer of tread doesn't increase the rolling resistance of a tire. I am skeptical about the notion of a solid center ridge making a thick tread fast. I haven't much idea if that relates to noise levels at all. On Friday, May 9, 2014 11:41:30 AM UTC-7, Cyclofiend Jim wrote: Most of the analysis of rolling resistance for bicycle tires points at casing construction as a much more significant factor WRT rolling resistance. You can create sound without all that much energy loss, and part of it may be related to the audiological perception of the difference - there's a fair bit of tone/timbre difference which certainly fades and we also probably get used to over time. But, I'm not sure you find much actual friction effect - the deformation of the casing and the ease with which that occurs has greater impact (if I'm understanding Jan's tests and writings, for example). - Jim -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] thump thump thump thump
On Thursday, May 8, 2014 6:35:57 AM UTC-7, Anne Paulson wrote: When I had that exact symptom, the rim was unsafely worn out on the braking surface. The rim needed to be replaced. I suspect if you've got 16000 miles on it, that rim has met its maker and needs a decent burial. I second that. When your rim gets wider, it means it's bowing outward. At the seam is where it's easiest to bow, since the rim is split there. You probably are just a few brake maneuvers away from the rim suddenly cracking, and a part of the sidewall breaking away. I am surprised that a front rim lasted only 16,000 miles, but it all depends on the conditions, and, of course, on how thick that sidewall was to begin with. After you've replaced the rim, you can cut it in half and see how much material you had left... Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Nanoreview, Barlow Pass 700x38C on Dyad
It's amazing how much of tire making remains a black art. The manufacturers really don't know exactly how wide the tire will be when it comes out of the mold. However, the size needs to be engraved in the mold before the first tire is made... So the Barlow Pass measures about 36-37 mm, depending on your rim width, after it has stretched some. Since so many riders try to cram the largest tire possible into their frames, we also need to err on the side of caution when giving tire widths. If our 38 measured 39 mm, we'd get lots of returns: Doesn't fit my bike. It also seems that everybody measures tire width differently. If you simply squeeze a caliper closed until you touch the tire sidewalls, you compress the tire. With supple sidewalls, you easily get a millimeters less than the actual width. The most accurate way to measure is by iteratively closing the calipers, 1 mm at a time. Start with 38 mm, see whether it rattles when you wiggle it. If it does, go to 37 mm, and so on. The last measurement where the caliper has some play is the tire width. If you compress the tire as you measure, you might find that a tire that should fit inside your frame does rub. (Ideally, you'll have so much clearance that two millimeters don't make a difference.) I no longer worry about a millimeter or two in width, but focus on the ride. I find that a great 30 mm tire rides so much more comfortably than a mediocre 35 mm tire. Width really matters only when comparing two otherwise identical tires. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Grant on tires
Grant, Thank you for the nice words. Yes, I appreciate your friendship, too. Fond memories... I totally understand where you are coming from when it comes to tires. There is a place for sturdy tires. You articulate it well: How much do you want to think about your bike. I don't mind changing my chain once in a while, so I ride derailleurs, not an internally-geared hub. And I don't mind looking at my tires every couple of months to make sure that the sidewalls are still OK. (They usually are, I haven't had a sidewall cut in decades.) For me, riding a bike is all about the smiles. The wind in my face, the bike leaning into a corner, picking up speed as I pedal harder – it's an incredible feeling. It's as much fun today as it was when I was ten and got my first ten-speed. I am looking for tires that sing on the road. I want my tires to absorb even the worst chipseal without making my hands blur on the handlebars. On gravel roads, I want my tires to float over the pebbles rather than bounce with each little bump. It's an added bonus that these tires allow me to ride through the night and feel none the worse for wear when I see the sun come up behind some peak in the Cascades. But even on short rides – especially on short rides – great tires makes the ride much more fun for me. When I go for a run or a walk, I wear running shoes, not steel-shanked hiking boots. I'll have to be a bit more careful where I step, but that is OK. I also don't wear racing flats, and for the same reason, we don't make event tires with ultra-thin tread that lasts only 1500 miles and is more likely to puncture. I want tires that offer a great ride and performance, but that a good rider can use every day. Like Grant, I don't like flats, and with the wider tires we ride these days, flats are such a rare occurrence that I rarely think about them. In more than 25,000 miles of riding Hetres and Babyshoe Pass 650B x 42 mm tires, I've had three flats. Two were caused by steel wires that would have penetrated most tires eventually. Even so, I would be willing to endure a flat every few months in return for a tire that puts a smile on my face. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires
Any airplane must be light enough to fly, and strong enough to survive turbulence. It's a fine balancing act, and it's the reason why Rene Herse's bikes are so amazing: He learned his craft building prototype aircraft, including the first plane to fly across the Atlantic the hard way – against the westerly winds. His vision has greatly influenced how I see bikes: Light enough to fly, but strong enough to survive turbulence. So we don't make event tires, but we also don't make bullet-proof tires you can ride even without air in them. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Friday, March 14, 2014 7:49:30 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote: On 03/14/2014 10:36 AM, Aaron Young wrote: Outweighs those performance gains for a specific type of riding. It's another example of 'horses for courses.' When this thread began, I was tempted to post a couple of photos illustrating comparing the Grant vs Jan approaches: *Grant* A-10 vs *Jan* U-2 (Note, that both examples represent perhaps the best aircraft of each type ever developed...) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires
On Friday, March 14, 2014 9:25:49 AM UTC-7, Jim Bronson wrote: You can't make something fly just by making it light. You are totally right. You cannot make a great tire just by making it light, either. Aircraft design, especially in the early days before prodigious horsepower could lift even huge weights, was a careful balance of lightness and strength. On bicycles, we still live in that age, because we cannot increase the horsepower much. Even a professional racer puts out only little more than a single horsepower, and not for long! Back to tires, there are many factors that have to be considered. We could make our tires lighter, but only at the expense of a greatly reduced longevity. We'd gain very little in speed, so to me, the trade-off was not worth it. The art lies in making the right compromises, and of course, everybody will value different compromises depending on how they ride. There is no perfect tire, but a variety of perfect tires optimized for different riding styles. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Edelux - Blug Post
You are right. I am sorry I mis-spoke. What I meant was that if the light moves a bit, the torque increases on the standing light, whereas it decreases on the hanging light. So in one case, you have a light that is balanced on a ridge, in the other, it's in a valley, so to speak. The main advantage of the hanging light is its ease of mounting on racks, as the originally-discussed blug post pointed out... Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Friday, March 14, 2014 2:02:35 PM UTC-7, ted wrote: Jan writes There is less torque on the mounting bolt, How is that? Looks like the cg of the light is the same distance in front of the bolt either way, so the magnitude of the torque would be the same. On Thursday, March 13, 2014 7:42:23 AM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9-BgcVClSC4/UyHCr4nz7PI/ACI/Z3C93t1D-GA/s1600/Jan_Herse_light.jpg A hanging Edelux makes a lot of sense on a rack with a dedicated attachment for the light. There is less torque on the mounting bolt, so it's less likely to come loose due to vibrations. (A standing light always wants to rotate downward.) The hanging Edelux also makes sense when you mount your light under the handlebars – less obtrusive than on top of the bars... Above is the hanging Edelux on my randonneur bike. I modified the attachment so it is forked. This allows me to adjust the angle of the light while riding (higher when out of town to see even when going into a dip in the road, lower in town to avoid blinding oncoming traffic), without the bolt loosening. Once the hanging Edelux II will become available, I'll probably run the lighting wire through the tube that supports the light – there is less risk of snagging it that way, and it doesn't look nice exposed as it currently is. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Edelux - Blug Post
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9-BgcVClSC4/UyHCr4nz7PI/ACI/Z3C93t1D-GA/s1600/Jan_Herse_light.jpg A hanging Edelux makes a lot of sense on a rack with a dedicated attachment for the light. There is less torque on the mounting bolt, so it's less likely to come loose due to vibrations. (A standing light always wants to rotate downward.) The hanging Edelux also makes sense when you mount your light under the handlebars – less obtrusive than on top of the bars... Above is the hanging Edelux on my randonneur bike. I modified the attachment so it is forked. This allows me to adjust the angle of the light while riding (higher when out of town to see even when going into a dip in the road, lower in town to avoid blinding oncoming traffic), without the bolt loosening. Once the hanging Edelux II will become available, I'll probably run the lighting wire through the tube that supports the light – there is less risk of snagging it that way, and it doesn't look nice exposed as it currently is. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Edelux - Blug Post
I agree with the rant – it shouldn't be that hard to use your bike at night. There actually are standards for lights. For example, all the German lights use an M6 bolt, and the bases are the same width. They mount to standard brackets that go on the fork crown. The bracket sandwiches the light, so you can adjust the light's angle by hand without loosening the bolt. As long as you use canti, V-brakes or discs, the fork crown is wide open. The rear light goes on the rear fender. Whether these are the best locations is a different matter, but if you have a German city bike and want to switch from a IQ Cyo to an Edelux, it's a simple swap. It's the same with derailleurs on our bikes. Yes, putting the derailleur on the outside of the rear dropout isn't ideal – the hanger tends to bend when the bike falls over – but they all are the same, and switching from Shimano to Campy is a snap today, unlike in the old days when Campy, Huret and Simplex each had their own dropouts with different derailleur hangers. We run into problems if our bikes aren't designed for derailleurs or lights. Then we have to get creative. And the results are often sub-optimal. Just like with cars, where the add-on fog lights tend to fall off, rotate or have unintended consequences (engines overheating because the lights block the radiator). The headlights that come with the car rarely have any issues... The beauty of a bike that is designed from the onset for lights is that you don't have to think about them. If they are well-designed, they are just there, ready to be switched on when you need them. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly 2116 Western Ave. Seattle WA 98121 http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:20:52 PM UTC-7, Peter M wrote: +1 on that rant. Shouldn't have to buy a rack to make a light work. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Edelux - Blug Post
Steve is right - the photo shows an Edelux I for hanging mounting – the thinner black ring at the front is a dead-giveaway. The Blug post with its link to the Edelux II product page could mislead readers into thinking they could just attach a standard Edelux II that way, but that would not work well at all. The beam pattern would be upside-down. (The Edelux and IQ Cyo have a very carefully designed beam pattern that provides even illumination from the near- to the far-field, and cut off the beam at the top to prevent blinding oncoming traffic.) The Edelux II has a wider beam and in general is preferable over the already-excellent original Edelux. The version for hanging mounting is still months away – it appears that demand for the standard Edelux II has the good people at Schmidt in Germany more than busy! Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: New Compass tires?
With 700C rims, you have a lot of options of excellent rims. Just avoid the usual suspects that don't work well in 650B, and you'll be fine. A wider rim obviously is a plus... Just to be clear, the seating issue of many 650B wheels isn't a fault of the tires, but of the poorly designed rims, where the wells are too deep. The Synergies have issues with all tires, but of course, a stiffer tire (which is round by itself) will be easier to seat than a very supple one. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:26:08 PM UTC-8, Burton wrote: Jan, is there a rim that works particularly well with these tires? I'm hoping to avoid the seating issues I've had with Hetres on Synergies. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Compass tires?
You could run the standard Loup Loup Pass, which has a similar casing to the Pari-Motos. You still get the extra tread thickness and longer life, in exchange for a few grams extra weight when new. Once you have ridden them for a thousand miles or so, they'll be almost indistinguishable from the Pari-Motos... Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com On Monday, February 24, 2014 7:58:01 AM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote: Perhaps I would also love the Loup Loup Pass but get longer tread life. The thinner sidewalls are a concern though. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Compass tires?
The wider Compass tires are brand-new designs, not re-branded tires from other makers. They all feature a tread pattern designed for optimum cornering adhesion in dry and wet conditions, whereas the Hetre has a ribbed pattern that also is considerably thicker. Compared to the Pari-Moto, the Compass Loup Loup Pass has more tread in the middle, so it will last many times longer. The Extralight version also has a lighter, more supple casing than the Pari-Moto... Basically, the Compass tires reflect everything we've learned in 8 years of tire testing. In the past, we've worked with other makers to get tires that offered more performance and comfort than what was available before, but we've now decided to develop our own, so we don't have to compromise in any way. Sorry for the typos on the web site - they are fixed now. There were a lot of pages to redesign! Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at janheine.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Compass tires?
As Grant has pointed out for rims, you can only wear them down to a certain limit, so the worst case is a rim that has the absolute minimum sidewall thickness and will be worn out the first time you brake. Adding a little extra sidewall thickness will greatly increase the lifespan, while adding not very much weight. With tires, it's the same. The Compass Loup Loup Pass is 3 mm thick (casing + tread combined). You can wear it down to about 1.2 mm before you start increasing the flat risk greatly. (If you are lucky, you may be able to wear the tire down to the casing without flats, but that isn't recommended, because at that point, you are only a few miles away from a blowout.) 3.0 - 1.2 gives you 1.8 mm tread to wear off. The Pari-Moto is 1.8 mm thick mm, so you get only 0.6 mm wear before it's getting very thin. So the Loup Loup Pass should last three times as long, while being only a little heavier. (The Extralight version actually is lighter, but the weight savings come from the casing, not a thinner tread.) Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Compass tires?
My previous post might be interpreted to be negative about the Pari-Moto... I have enjoyed my rides on them a lot, and we used to sell them at Compass Bicycles. If you compare them to a narrower racing tire, the life expectancy is just fine. We've become so used to riding tires for many thousands of miles that we tend to lose perspective. I still remember the days when my 20 mm-wide Michelin High-Lites wore out every 800-1000 miles... Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Tire Casing Quiz
The biggest difference between the Grand Bois tires (standard model) and the lesser Panaracer tires (Pasela, Col de la Vie) is the angle of the casing layers. Zero degrees would be a radial tire, but that doesn't work without a steel belt to hold it all together. However, the closer you get to a radial, the more supple the tire gets. As others pointed out, when you get closer to the edge, you have to work much more carefully, since the margin of error is smaller. That – and the cost of the mold – are the main reasons the Hetre is more expensive to make. The tread rubber is a little different, which adds to the cost, too. For the Extra Leger version, the casing is made of finer threads (higher TPI), but that alone doesn't account for the better performance. There are a few other, proprietary things that make that tire even more comfortable and fast, but unfortunately, also more expensive. In the car world, the Pasela would be a BMW 3 series, the standard Grand Bois a BMW M3, and the Extra Léger one of the race-optimized special editions of the M3. The basic 3-series costs about 1/4 of the most expensive versions, even though they look the same from the outside... Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Mixte frame design question
On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 7:03:09 PM UTC-8, Philip Williamson wrote: Did all French builders use the TT stays? Peugeot made many women's bikes with a single dropped top tube, but no extra rear stays. In the 1980s, their inexpensive models had the twin diagonal stays, but the more expensive, performance-oriented women's model had the single, dropped top tube. I suspect the single dropped tube was influenced by the fashion for Italian bikes. Many Italian makers offered frames of this type. (In Germany where I grew up, it was very unusual even for a sporting woman to ride a men's frame, so you saw these Italian frames, outfitted with Campagnolo components, on training rides.) I've often wondered about the ride of these women's bikes. From a basic engineering perspective, I understand the idea that ending a tube in the middle of another tube is a big no-no – you want triangulation. That clearly is what Reyhand was thinking when he developed the model with the extra rear stays, which transmit the loads of the diagonal tube to the rear dropouts. On the other hand, the flexing of the seat tube (on the Italian frames) could provide a little suspension, which might not be bad. Then you have all the issues of frame flex and planing... where a compact frame (since that is what the Reyhand style was, if you remove the uppermost set of seat stays) might be stiffer than perhaps ideal for its rider. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Mixte frame design question
Interestingly, mixte seems to have a clear definition more in the U.S. than in France. Of the great constructeurs, I've only seen the term mixte used in the Goéland catalogue. Most speak of vélo dame or similar terms. Regarding the frame design, the twin-diagonal-tubed mixte was invented by A. Sixt in the 1930s, as a more triangulated design that was intended to make the frame stiffer than the traditional women's frames with a deeply dropped or even curved diagonal tube. He also used twin diagonal tubes to stiffen tandem frames. Around 1938, the great constructeur Reyhand developed a more sophisticated frame design, with a dropped single top tube and two extra seatstays. In profile, it looks similar to the twin-diagonal-tubed frame. To stiffen the connection at the center of the frame, the extra stays extend beyond the seat tube and attach to the diagonal tube as well. André Reiss, the maker of Reynand, patented this design, as well as a tandem frame with two sets of diagonal reinforcement stays (one set from the head tube to the rear BB, the other from the front seat lug to the rear dropouts). After Reiss died in World War II, the designs were widely copied. You can see examples of these designs in the Bicycle Quarterly Image Archive at http://www.bikequarterly.com/color_photo_supplement.html The twin-diagonal-tubed mixte was much easier to make, and thus remained popular among mass producers. I don't think Sheldon Brown was even aware of the second Reyhand type when he coined his definition of mixte, but he was thinking of women's frames with either a dropped top tube with no extra rear stays (which puts bending loads on the seat tube and thus offends engineers) or the twin-diagonal-tubed mixte. More recently, Rivendell inspired its mixtes on the Reyhand type, but without extending the extra stays beyond the seat tube. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE
We just tested the tires and recorded the results – I only can offer hypotheses why the tires behave that way. A likely explanation is that the decrease in hysteretic losses becomes smaller once you exceed a certain pressure, but the suspension losses still increase with higher pressures. (You don't get much less flex in the tire, but you still increase the vibrations as you go to higher pressures.) When you look at the original data in Bicycle Quarterly Vol. 11, No. 3, you'll see that different tire models (we tested three different tires in 0.5 bar increments) behave a bit differently, as you'd expect. As a rider, I don't really care why my tires roll as fast at 50 psi as they do at 100 psi, I am just glad I can get tires that are wide and comfortable, and roll fast. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Monday, January 6, 2014 4:44:13 PM UTC-8, ted wrote: Jan, Agreed on the practical practice side, but I am still curious about the med hi to hi pressure phenomena. If I understand correctly, you say that from nominal to very high pressure, losses in the tire itself decrease. But from nominal to moderately high pressures, suspension losses increase more and overwhelm the reduction in losses in the tire so that the total resistance increases. However from moderately high to very high pressure total resistance decreases. Do you have a theory / explanation for that? What component of the total resistance goes down with increasing pressure in that medium to very high pressure regime? Though it's not significant as a practical matter, somehow the engineer in me still wants to know. On Sunday, January 5, 2014 6:50:27 PM UTC-8, Jan Heine wrote: On Sunday, January 5, 2014 5:45:23 PM UTC-8, ted wrote: If I read that right, you are saying that your data shows a local maxima at medium-high pressure with lower losses at tire pressures both above and below that point. Is that really what you mean to be saying? Yes, that is what we found. (There is a second maximum at very low pressures, like below 40 psi for a 25 mm tire). As you point out, the differences, while statistically significant (we had so much data that it was easy to filter out the noise), don't really matter in real life. Just ride really is a good way to think about tire pressure. It's nice to know that obsessing about tire pressure doesn't gain you anything. I now inflate my Grand Bois Hetres to about 45 psi, and then ride them for a few months, until they start washing out under hard cornering, at which point I inflate them again. It's nice not to worry about tire pressure more than a few times a year. I do reduce the pressure if we are heading over long, rough gravel sections, but then I hardly ever re-inflate them even if we are riding for hundreds of miles on pavement thereafter. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE
I realized that my previous blog post may be misunderstood as saying that width is all that matters for tire speed. In fact, it's a minor component - it's just that when you are comparing tires of similar construction, wider tires offer you more comfort and as much or more speed. To clarify, I posted a list of tires that we've found to offer excellent performance in our testing: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/01/05/wide-and-fast-tires/ Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE
On Saturday, January 4, 2014 10:59:41 PM UTC-8, ted wrote: Are you equating the behavior of high performance 32mm clinchers and 25mm tubulars, or are both tires you mention clinchers? I am just talking about test results. We tested the Grand Bois clinchers, as well as the Vittorias as clinchers and tubulars at a multitude of pressures. The results were the same - ultra-high-pressures don't provide any benefit, even on very smooth roads. For more information, I recommend you read the original article - there are dozens of pages on tire performance in that issue (Vol. 11, No. 3), much more than I can summarize in this format. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE
On Sunday, January 5, 2014 8:32:54 AM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote: Interestingly that is pretty much in keeping with the traditional rolling resistance tests done in tire labs. The decrease in rolling resistance flattens out as inflation pressure increases. Even on a steel roller, an increase from 100 to 140 psi doesn't reduce rolling resistance that much. All the steel drum tests don't measure the suspension losses, even though they are a very important part of the equation. Our tests on real roads with a rider on board found that the curve didn't just flatten, but it was U-shaped (if you disregard the really low pressures). Low and very high pressures were marginally more efficient than medium-high pressures. So the curve looks fundamentally different from that you find in steel drum tests. If you believed that data, you'd still gain a small advantage going from 100 to 140 psi. In real life, you might actually be slower at 140 psi. (Where the least efficient point in the curve is depends on the tire type.) Similarly, on real roads, the tubular disadvantage is much smaller because tubulars are more comfortable and thus have lower suspension losses. This counteracts to a large degree the slightly higher hysteretic losses or glue creep or whatever it is that makes them less efficient on the steel drum. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE
On Sunday, January 5, 2014 5:45:23 PM UTC-8, ted wrote: If I read that right, you are saying that your data shows a local maxima at medium-high pressure with lower losses at tire pressures both above and below that point. Is that really what you mean to be saying? Yes, that is what we found. (There is a second maximum at very low pressures, like below 40 psi for a 25 mm tire). As you point out, the differences, while statistically significant (we had so much data that it was easy to filter out the noise), don't really matter in real life. Just ride really is a good way to think about tire pressure. It's nice to know that obsessing about tire pressure doesn't gain you anything. I now inflate my Grand Bois Hetres to about 45 psi, and then ride them for a few months, until they start washing out under hard cornering, at which point I inflate them again. It's nice not to worry about tire pressure more than a few times a year. I do reduce the pressure if we are heading over long, rough gravel sections, but then I hardly ever re-inflate them even if we are riding for hundreds of miles on pavement thereafter. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE
Schwalbe's graph is nice, but unfortunately, it's an ancient graph that has long been debunked. While it shows wider tires rolling faster, it also suggests that very high pressures make tires roll faster. That simply isn't true. We've used several different methods to confirm our initial results that going to very high pressures doesn't gain better performance. The Schwalbe data probably stems from a test on a steel roller. Without a rider, you don't measure the suspension losses that occur in the rider's body, and so you get only half the resistance. As tire pressure increases, the bike vibrates more, which increases the suspension losses and cancels out any gain from reduced flex in the tire casing. More about suspension losses is here: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/suspension-losses/ Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance
There was a test like that in Bicycle Guide, and it was very poorly done. There was only one tester, and he rode a bunch of bikes, each of them just once. So there was no back-to-back comparison, no going back to firm up impressions. When we did a similar test, double blind, two of our testers could tell a relatively small difference in tubing wall thickness (0.7-0.4-0.7 instead of 0.9-0.6-0.9 mm) with 100% reliability. One tester could not. The tested frames were all on the flexible end of the range you see today in bicycle frames, so we didn't test a Surly LHT vs. an Alan or something like that. The full test was published in *Bicycle Quarterly* Vol. 6, No. 4http://www.bikequarterly.com/contents.html, but you can find some details here: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/a-journey-of-discovery-part-5-frame-stiffness/ The conclusion is that small differences can be very noticeable. However, I also doubt that you'd be able to tell a 20 g difference in tire weight. Somebody who believes they can tell this difference should do a double-blind test. It would be easy to do (you could just use some weights on the inside of the rim, underneath the rim tape). Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Saturday, January 4, 2014 9:52:14 AM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote: Unfortunately there is a boatload of contradictory scientific evidence about these sorts of thing. Most of the differences we think we perceive are based on the beliefs and assumptions we have about the equipment on our bikes, rather than differences we can actually perceive. The felt difference in performance between a 230 gm tire and a 250 gm tire is primarily placebo effect (whereas the difference between a 230 gm tire and an 800 gm tire might fall above the threshold of perceivable difference), but many people will adamantly tell you they can clearly feel the difference. In a double blind test they couldn't. I remember a number of years ago when a bike magazine had a bunch of otherwise identical steel frames built from a range of tubing from low end to high end. When the riders did not know which was which, they couldn't tell them apart- yet thousands of published bike reviews have extolled the superiority of one tube set over another, claiming dramatic differences in performance. Those difference were perceived based on the expectations of the reviewer. How many time have we read reviews composed of complete nonsense like a frame being stiff yet compliant? Tim On Jan 4, 2014, at 7:53 AM, Ron Mc bulld...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: Bill, again, I'm telling you it's not a personal thing - it's in our wiring to recognize slight changes, especially where work is concerned. We don't feel the baseline work, what we feel is the change from the baseline work. Bike riders feel weight difference in wheels more than anything else, because we feel the responsiveness it produces. For racers, total weight, aerodynamics (i.e. skinny tires) all add up for the slight edge that may nose them ahead by the finish line. But the rest of us know if we have light wheels when we start up the hill and we know if we have efficient rolling tires when we crest it. On Friday, January 3, 2014 12:28:45 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote: It's the next subtle increment that we feel. So yes, subtle differences in wheel inertia are more significant to us than adding mass to the bike frame. and I never once said you can't feel it. If the small difference is a big deal to you, that's perfectly fine. Do lighter wheels spin up faster? Yes! How much faster? A tiny bit faster. Is that tiny bit a big deal to some riders? Absolutely If you can feel the difference and if you like it better then do it. It's great. None of us are racing or timing ourselves. If it feels a lot faster, who cares if it isn't actually measurably a lot faster? If it feels MUCH easier to pedal, who cares if it isn't actually measurably much easier to pedal? Trust me, I'm a tires guy. I've got ~30 pairs of spare tires in my parts bins. Sometimes I run skinnier tires. Why? Because they *feel*different, and sometimes I prefer to do it. I *feel* like it. Sometimes I decide to run 700x25, sometimes 700x28 and sometimes 700x35. They feel different and I run what I feel like running. Feeling is a big deal I remember a similar back and forth when a vendor made a crankset in 170 and 175 and refused to offer it in 172.5mm. He emphatically stated that the reason he wouldn't do it was because it is impossible for a rider to feel the difference between 170 and 172.5. A lot of people (including me) got kind of miffed about it. I sure as heck can feel the difference. Could I get used to a 170? Sure. But I've got 6 bikes and they all have 172.5s. I'm not switching cranks on all my bikes
[RBW] Re: Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE
On Saturday, January 4, 2014 12:17:13 PM UTC-8, ted wrote: 3) For a given tire increasing pressure reduces rolling resistance. It depends what you call rolling resistance. If you define it as only the hysteretic losses within the tire, then it's true. However, if you are looking at the OVERALL resistance of the bike, then increasing your tire pressure beyond a certain point doesn't gain anything at all! You just bounce more. So your tire doesn't flex much, but you flex more - the end result is a draw on very smooth roads, and probably a loss on rougher roads. This fact, which is well-documented by now (we ran several tires at pressures from 30 to 200 psi in 10 psi increments), is the reason why wide tires can be fast. If high pressures were faster than lower ones, then you'd have to beef up the casing of wider tires to enable them to run high pressures, and you'd lose all the suppleness. So you'd have a choice of either losing speed due to a sturdy casing, or losing speed because you have to run low pressures. (The load on a wide tire is much greater for the same pressure than it is on a narrow one.) In reality, you can use a supple casing, run your wide tire at relatively low pressures, and you don't lose anything due to the low pressures, but gain due to the supple casing. This finding has revolutionized our understanding of wide tires. No longer is desirable to make wide tires that can handle 100 psi or more - it's in fact counterproductive, since such a strong casing cannot be supple. Of course, none of this is new, it just had been forgotten for a few decades. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE
Obviously, if your tire is flat, rolling resistance is very high. So there is a minimum pressure below which rolling resistance increases. In our testing, we found that this pressure was about at the point where the tire no longer cornered safely - pretty low! There also must be a maximum pressure beyond which tires become slower. At infinite pressure, the tire would be totally stiff, and then you'd be back to the old days when wheels were shod with narrow strips of rubber. Those were very slow. In reality, the pressures we tend to ride are in the middle - even 200 psi isn't making a tire totally stiff - so we don't need to worry about it. Basically, a Grand Bois 700C x 32 mm (or Vittoria CX Corsa 25 mm) tire is as fast at 60 psi as it is at 200 psi. At moderately high pressures (110 psi or so), they actually were a little slower, but this is a minor effect. While statistically significant (so it's not noise in the data), running your tires at 110 psi will only make you marginally slower than running them at 60 or 80 psi. I am quoting from memory, the exact data is in the *Bicycle Quarterly* article (Vol. 11, No. 3). So for practical purposes, tire pressure should be selected as low as you can go while still getting good cornering. This holds true at least for high-performance tires. We haven't tested this for sturdy, belted utility tires, but if you are concerned about performance, you won't run those, anyhow. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Tire Width and Performance
Even though most RBW folks may not care all that much about going fast, it's still nice to know that a wider tire doesn't roll any slower. We summarized the data in our blog here: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/tires-how-wide-is-too-wide/ If anything, it may help persuade those we meet on our rides, who look at our bikes and are intrigued by the idea of a more comfortable bike with wider tires, but are afraid they won't be able to keep up with their friends if they add 5 or 10 mm to their tire width. Happy New Year! Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Tire Width and Performance
Some interesting thoughts here. A few added thoughts: *Contact patch:* We've been thinking about this. We are lucky today to have numerous tires that have the same casing, so at least we can do a controlled experiment. It is good to be able to explain the data, but it's important to note that the data shows that 25 mm tires are faster than 23 mm. No matter how we explain it (contact patch shape, lower suspension losses, better aerodynamics, whatever), the results won't change. *Light wheels and acceleration/climbing:* The math assumes a constant power output, but we know riders have anything but a constant power output. We pedal at 60-120 rpm, and within each stroke, we have a very distinct power phase. Does this change the equation? For frame stiffness, it certainly does. With constant power, frame stiffness wouldn't matter at all, and planing would not exist. I am not saying that lighter wheels climb better (many of my best times on mountain passes have been on 650B x 42 mm tires), but I would like to caution that the simple math may not be the entire story. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Charity Drive for Museo del Ghisallo: SUCCESS!
The charity drive for the *Museo del Ghisallo* was a great success. We donated over $ 1200 (900 Euro) to the *Museo*, which hopefully will help them reopen their doors come spring. Thank you to all who bought calendars and supported this cause. More details and photos of a unique Colnago from the museum are here: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/12/27/charity-drive-and-saronnis-colnago/ It's not a very Rivendellian bike by any means, but the story is interesting and has implications for the bikes we ride. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly Seattle, WA www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: 650B Question
Generally speaking, tubes are very stretchable. In a pinch, you can use almost any tube somewhat smaller than the size of the tire (within reason - I am not sure you could get away with using a 20 kid's bike tube in a 650B wheel). High-quality tubes have more uniform walls and can be stretched more. (I often use 700C tubes intended for 19-28 mm tires in 32 mm tires.) So for 650B, almost any 26 tube will work, and those are pretty widely available. Most of all, you are unlikely to need more tubes than you carry - wide 650B tires get very, very few flats. I've had only 2 flats on Grand Bois Hetres in more than 20,000 miles on all kinds of roads, from urban commuting in Seattle to gravel roads in the Cascades. Both were on very worn tires... I have had as many flats from faulty tubes on test bikes, so make sure you get high-quality tubes! On big rides, I carry two superlight spare tubes plus a glueless patch kit, but even that appears to be overkill. Still, it's better than having to walk for a day or two – in many places we ride, there is no bike shop within 50 miles, so it doesn't matter which tube I ride. Overall, as 650B is becoming the most popular mountain bike wheel size, you can expect the availability of tubes to increase rapidly. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. http://www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Charity Drive for the Museo del Ghisallo
The charity drive to help reopen the Museo del Ghisallo is a success. So far, almost $ 1000 have been collected through sales of *Bicycle Quarterly's Calendar of Classic Bicycles*. Thank you to all who have contributed. Since there was some confusion about the cut-off date, we've extended the deadline until noon today (12/19/2013). We are shooting for 1000 Euros ($ 1300) in donations. If you haven't ordered a calendar yet, there still are a few hours to order one and help reopen this wonderful museum. You can order here: http://www.bikequarterly.com/books_calendar_2014.html The entire price of the calendar ($ 15) goes to the *Museo del Ghisallo*. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly Seattle, WA www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Charity Drive for the Museo del Ghisallo
The *Museo del Ghisallo* in Italy closed recently for lack of funding. The *Museo* is a unique place, right next to the famous chapel dedicated to bicycle racing. It was founded by the great Italian racer Fiorenzo Magni and exhibits many bikes ridden by the great champions. Whatever you may think of bicycle racing today, its heritage has inspired us and brought us many of the bikes we love today. With the Italian economy not doing well, subsidies have been cut, and there isn't money to keep the museum open. They are looking for donations... so we decided to do our part. Here’s our idea: for the next 24 hours, all sales of our *Calendar of Classic Bicycles* http://www.bikequarterly.com/books_calendar_2014.htmlwill be donated to the *Museo*. The donation will 100% of the purchase price, except for the shipping charges... Use the opportunity to buy one calendar for yourself, and buy some more for your cycling friends. They’ll enjoy the beautiful studio photos of amazing bikes all year long, and the money will go toward preserving a unique cultural heritage. For more information and to donate, see our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/12/18/charity-drive-museo-del-ghisallo/ Let's hope we can keep this wonderful museum open. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly Seattle, WA www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Charity Drive for the Museo del Ghisallo
Due to a typo, our web site that the charity drive for the Museo del Ghisallo ended this morning (12/18) instead of tomorrow (12/19). If anybody thought they had missed the cutoff for the calendar order as a donation to the museum, I apologize - you still can order and we'll donate the entire price of the calendar ($ 15) to the museum. The direct link is here: http://www.bikequarterly.com/books_calendar_2014.html I apologize for any inconvenience. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly Seattle, WA www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] First Editions for Charity
Just a quick note that Bicycle Quarterly Presss has a small number (three) sets of signed first editions of our three books – *The Golden Age of Handmade Bicycles, The Competition Bicycle* and *René Herse* – available. Each set also includes four ready-to-frame art prints, as well as an oversize reproduction of the last-generation René Herse downtube decal. For collectors, this is a great opportunity to obtain the signed first editions of these books. $ 265 for the entire set. The proceeds go to charity (Doctors Without Borders). More details at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Pannier rattle
I've used those panniers, too, and they do rattle. Traditional panniers had a spring-loaded system that tensioned the panniers so they didn't fly off. As a byproduct, they were quiet. The new easy on/easy off panniers have upper hooks that close around the rack, so they cannot fly off. At the bottom, there is just a finger that goes behind the rack tube. Ortlieb panniers used to have a rubber strap that tensioned the pannier, with a hook at the bottom. If you still have the buckle for that (mine do), then you probably can get these rubber straps and remove the new and improved lower hardware. Then you have the ideal situation, with the secure upper hook that closes around the rack and the tensioning hook at the bottom. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Pannier rattle
I've thought about ways to cure this rattle. Ideal would be if your rack tubes were so large in diameter that they _just_ fit inside the hooks. I tried to take up the extra space with rubber from cut-up inner tubes, but that didn't work. Perhaps you can find or make bushings that you could clip over the rack tubes. Something like slicing a plastic tube (for example, the barrel of a ball-point pen), then clipping it onto the rack. You'd still get a little rattle from the lower attachment, unless that, too, is just the right size for your rack. It would take some trial-and-error, and I just didn't have the patience. I went back to my old Berthoud panniers that have a metal spring to tension the pannier, and the problem was solved. (Current Berthoud panniers use an easy-on/easy-off system that probably isn't any better than Ortlieb's.) Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Cycling in Paris during the German Occupation
It always amazes me how much resilience people show when faced with difficult conditions. During my research on the René Herse story, I was surprised to learn that cycling and even the building of high-end bicycles continued during the German occupation of France during the war. Recently, I came across a bunch of photos online that illustrate many aspects of cycling (and life) during that time – see my blog post at http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/12/06/cycling-under-the-german-occupation/ It was a terrible time, but I find the resilience of the people, and especially the cyclists, and the risks they took to help one another, very inspiring. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Cycling in Paris during the German Occupation
I hadn't really thought about bicycles as a tool for resistance in today's society. That may explain why some drivers are so enraged by cyclists on the road! Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.wordpress.com On Saturday, December 7, 2013 8:25:59 AM UTC-8, Addison wrote: Thank you for sharing this! I've been fascinated by WWII, the resistance, and the holocaust, for years. Studied the history and the literature pretty extensively. I recently wrote a piece about bicycles as a symbol/tool of resistance. It was inspired by a history professor and a discussion we had. http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-bicycleresistance-is-futile.html Thanks again, Addison Wilhite, M.A. Academy of Arts, Careers and Technologyhttp://www.washoecountyschools.org/aact/ *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”* Educator: Professional Portfolio http://addisonwilhite.blogspot.com/ Blogger: Reno Rambler http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/ Bicycle Advocate: Regional Transportation Commission, Bicycle Pedestrian Advisory Committeehttp://www.rtcwashoe.com/public-transportation-22-124.html On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 8:12 AM, Jan Heine hei...@earthlink.netjavascript: wrote: It always amazes me how much resilience people show when faced with difficult conditions. During my research on the René Herse story, I was surprised to learn that cycling and even the building of high-end bicycles continued during the German occupation of France during the war. Recently, I came across a bunch of photos online that illustrate many aspects of cycling (and life) during that time – see my blog post at http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/12/06/cycling-under-the- german-occupation/ It was a terrible time, but I find the resilience of the people, and especially the cyclists, and the risks they took to help one another, very inspiring. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Favorite Bike Build-up 'Secret'
Wine corks as barend plugs. Inexpensive, superlight and look nice. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Velocity Rims, Again
I read this thread with interest, as I am putting the finishing touches on the Winter issue of *Bicycle Quarterly*. This issue includes a test of the 650B Velocity A23 rims. I checked the brake tracks of our samples, and they are parallel, as they should be. So they work as well with any brake type as most other rims. The aero shape is below the brake track, and does not affect braking in any way. It's interesting that while there are so many wonderful 650B tires available, few well-designed 650B rims are available today. Without giving too much away, the Velocity A23 appears to solve that problem, finally. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Hetre/Synergy safety issue?
It's interesting that you bring up tandems. Tandems do have their own requirements – they should not react much to weight shifts, since the captain cannot anticipate when the stoker reaches for a water bottle or scratches their nose – but the best tandems are as nimble at speed as a good single bike. (At very low speeds, you do notice the long wheel base, because the turning radius is larger.) Here, too, front-end geometry is more a determinant of handling than wheelbase. It would be interesting to ride a René Herse Chanteloup tandem with a curved rear seat tube and ultra-short wheelbase back to back with a standard tandem from the same maker with the same front-end geometry, but significantly longer wheelbase... I have ridden both, and both are excellent, but never back-to-back to make direct comparisons. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Saturday, November 2, 2013 9:24:04 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote: On Nov 2, 2013, at 9:48 AM, Jan Heine hei...@earthlink.net javascript: wrote: You are right! The LHT does have LONG chainstays... Most touring bikes I have measured were classic machines that had shorter chainstays than that. My old Mercian tourer had a wheelbase of 1028 mm. Of course, the main determinant of wheelbase is top tube length - a large frame will have a longer wheelbase. I should have said that I was referring to bikes that fit a 6' tall rider like me - otherwise, the wheelbase measurement becomes meaningless. Mainly the longer chainstays are intended to allow the use of larger/lower panniers with less chance of your heels hitting them. I think that a lot of people equate that with a slower handling bike, perhaps not recognizing that the steering geometry of a loaded tourer tends to be different than a road bike, 'cross bike or mountain bike. If you want the comparison in extremis regarding wheelbase consider a tandem or a triplet (although there the front end geometry tends to be different). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Hetre/Synergy safety issue?
One of the long-held beliefs of cyclists is that bottom bracket drop affects the handling. It makes sense - you lower the ride, and the bike should turn better. However, you need to look at what the important variable is: It's not the BB drop, not even the BB height, but the center of gravity of the rider. That is about 3 feet (90 cm) high for most riders. It's hard to see how 3 mm could make a difference. In practice, that is how it tends to work out. For *Bicycle Quarterly*'s tests, I have ridden a lot of low-trail 650B bikes with the same front-end geometry, same Hetre tires, but one was an outlier with a BB height that was way lower. (I suspect an error by the builder, who was new to making bikes.) The bike handled exactly the same as other bikes with similar front-end geometry and wheel/tire combination that had BB heights of 265-275 mm. Even 30 mm didn't make a noticeable difference. (Note that I rode the bike first, then measured its geometry, to prevent the placebo effect of knowing that the BB is lower, and hence feeling a difference that may not be there. It wasn't quite a blind test, but the best we can do with test bikes.) Most modern 'cross bikes have a very different front-end geometry – more like mountain bikes – from road bikes, which probably explains their different handling. My old Alanhttp://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/10/15/cyclocross/has a very high BB (back then, you had to be able to pedal with toeclips facing down and not scrape the mud), yet its handling is remarkably normal. Since we are in myth-busting mode, wheelbase is another factor that is overrated. The wheelbase of a modern bike varies between 995 and 1040 mm. That is between a Trek Madone and a touring bike with very long chainstays. It also amounts to just 4.5%. Once Peter Weigle and I rode two bikes with identical front-end geometry, but very different chainstays: A 1954 Alex Singer with 430 mm chainstays, a modern Peter Weigle with 450 mm chainstays. We switched back and forth between bikes and could not detect a difference in their stability or handling. (Chainstay length can affect comfort, because 20 or 30 mm difference in chainstay length will push your saddle significantly closer to the rear axle line.) We did a detailed article in *Bicycle Quarterly* Vol. 10, No. 2http://www.bikequarterly.com/bq102.htmlon bike geometry and how it affects the bike's ride, performance and handling. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Friday, November 1, 2013 9:14:36 AM UTC-7, ttoshi wrote: Lacking any hard data, we can only play with the numbers. 3 mm is 25% of 12 mm, which is probably the average difference in bottom bracket height between cyclocross and road bike bottom bracket heights. People have argued that road bikes noticably turn better than cyclocross bikes due to this difference, so perhaps the princess on 4 peas would notice the difference! Toshi On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Jan Heine hei...@earthlink.netjavascript: wrote: The difference in tire height (about 3 mm) will lift your center of gravity by about 0.3%. Even the princess on the pea would be hard-pressed to notice that! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: Hetre/Synergy safety issue?
You are right! The LHT does have LONG chainstays... Most touring bikes I have measured were classic machines that had shorter chainstays than that. My old Mercian tourer had a wheelbase of 1028 mm. Of course, the main determinant of wheelbase is top tube length - a large frame will have a longer wheelbase. I should have said that I was referring to bikes that fit a 6' tall rider like me - otherwise, the wheelbase measurement becomes meaningless. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Saturday, November 2, 2013 5:56:19 AM UTC-7, EricP wrote: Jan, A slight point of order, the chainstays on the Surly Long Haul Trucker are 460mm. And the wheelbase, depending on wheel size, varies from 1036mm to 1105, both on the 26 wheel version. From what I can quickly figure out, the wheelbase difference on a medium sized bike (ca. 58-60cm) is closer to 8 percent longer on the 700C version and nearly 10 percent on the 26 wheel model than a Trek Madone. Getting my numbers from here http://surlybikes.com/bikes/long_haul_trucker/geometry Not saying if it still does, or does not make a difference. Although my personal experience indicates the longer wheelbase does change handling. Eric Platt St. Paul, MN On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 7:26 AM, Jan Heine hei...@earthlink.netjavascript: wrote: One of the long-held beliefs of cyclists is that bottom bracket drop affects the handling. It makes sense - you lower the ride, and the bike should turn better. However, you need to look at what the important variable is: It's not the BB drop, not even the BB height, but the center of gravity of the rider. That is about 3 feet (90 cm) high for most riders. It's hard to see how 3 mm could make a difference. In practice, that is how it tends to work out. For *Bicycle Quarterly*'s tests, I have ridden a lot of low-trail 650B bikes with the same front-end geometry, same Hetre tires, but one was an outlier with a BB height that was way lower. (I suspect an error by the builder, who was new to making bikes.) The bike handled exactly the same as other bikes with similar front-end geometry and wheel/tire combination that had BB heights of 265-275 mm. Even 30 mm didn't make a noticeable difference. (Note that I rode the bike first, then measured its geometry, to prevent the placebo effect of knowing that the BB is lower, and hence feeling a difference that may not be there. It wasn't quite a blind test, but the best we can do with test bikes.) Most modern 'cross bikes have a very different front-end geometry – more like mountain bikes – from road bikes, which probably explains their different handling. My old Alanhttp://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/10/15/cyclocross/has a very high BB (back then, you had to be able to pedal with toeclips facing down and not scrape the mud), yet its handling is remarkably normal. Since we are in myth-busting mode, wheelbase is another factor that is overrated. The wheelbase of a modern bike varies between 995 and 1040 mm. That is between a Trek Madone and a touring bike with very long chainstays. It also amounts to just 4.5%. Once Peter Weigle and I rode two bikes with identical front-end geometry, but very different chainstays: A 1954 Alex Singer with 430 mm chainstays, a modern Peter Weigle with 450 mm chainstays. We switched back and forth between bikes and could not detect a difference in their stability or handling. (Chainstay length can affect comfort, because 20 or 30 mm difference in chainstay length will push your saddle significantly closer to the rear axle line.) We did a detailed article in *Bicycle Quarterly* Vol. 10, No. 2http://www.bikequarterly.com/bq102.htmlon bike geometry and how it affects the bike's ride, performance and handling. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Friday, November 1, 2013 9:14:36 AM UTC-7, ttoshi wrote: Lacking any hard data, we can only play with the numbers. 3 mm is 25% of 12 mm, which is probably the average difference in bottom bracket height between cyclocross and road bike bottom bracket heights. People have argued that road bikes noticably turn better than cyclocross bikes due to this difference, so perhaps the princess on 4 peas would notice the difference! Toshi On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Jan Heine hei...@earthlink.net wrote: The difference in tire height (about 3 mm) will lift your center of gravity by about 0.3%. Even the princess on the pea would be hard-pressed to notice that! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send
[RBW] Re: Hetre/Synergy safety issue?
A poorly seated tire will wobble - you'll notice it when looking at the tread as you spin the wheel. You might also get a thump-thump as you ride, if it's severe. Regarding the handling difference between Hetre and Pari-Moto you describe, we've never noticed anything like it. At the cornering limit, the Hetre ribs will squirm a bit, but you have to go seriously fast to feel that. For some reason, the Extra Léger model doesn't suffer from this trait as much, perhaps because the more supple tire conforms more to the road surface... It's conceivable – if you are more sensitive than we are – that you might feel a little squirm from the ribs during the first few miles, until they wear a bit, but it's unlikely, considering how much rubber there is on the road with a 42 mm tire. I suspect there is something else that is going on... The difference in tire height (about 3 mm) will lift your center of gravity by about 0.3%. Even the princess on the pea would be hard-pressed to notice that! Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. http://www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Hetre/Synergy safety issue?
The problem lies with the rim, not the tire. All tires will fit poorly on the Synergies, whether 650B or 700C. You can make it work – I use the Synergies on my own bike – but the tire doesn't seat automatically as it should. If you don't have problems, then you are mostly fine. There still is a minor safety issue if you have a sudden blowout, the tire might come off the rim more easily than with a well-designed rim. If you cannot get the tire to seat well, and it runs wobbly no matter what you do, then it's the rim, not the tire's fault. Generally speaking, seating a tire with stiff sidewalls (and a wire bead) is easier, because the tire wants to assume its round shape. A supple tire with Kevlar bead can be harder to seat if the rim doesn't support it as it should. Jan Heine Compass Bicycles Ltd. http://www.compasscycle.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:13:39 PM UTC-7, Michael wrote: Someone on a thread here says Hetre BSD size is too big for synergy rims. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Classic Bicycles Calendar
After the success of last year's *Classic Bicycles* Calendar – our stocks sold out within a single day! – we teamed up with Rizzoli again to bring you a *2014 Calendar of Classic Bicycles*. Once again, it features beautiful studio photographs of an eclectic selection of wonderful machines. The range of bikes runs from the beautifully conventional to the truly incredible, like the Labor with its single-sided fork (in 1910!) or the Hirondelle Retro-Directe with its figure-8 chain. There are beauties from Caminargent and Oscar Egg, a lovely 1890s Humber, as well as historic machines like a PBP-winning René Herse, Ernest Csuka's personal Alex Singer, and a tandem that set the hour record in the 1930s. With the exception of Greg LeMond's Gitane and Guiseppe Saronni's Colnago, they are all Riv-approved bikes with large clearances and fender eyelets... ;-) More information is here: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/bqs-calendar-of-classic-bicycles-2014/ Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly 2116 Western Ave. Seattle WA 98121 http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Classic Bicycles Calendar
On Friday, October 11, 2013 8:19:58 AM UTC-7, Tim Gavin wrote: But even Greg's Gitane and the Colnago are both lugged steel, i presume? Absolutely! Even the Caminargent is lugged, but made from aluminum. Only the Jo Routens is fillet-brazed... Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: BQ on Mark's rack
On Thursday, October 3, 2013 1:11:37 AM UTC-7, Pierre wrote: Got BQ in the mail today, I love the color. When you read the article, it is mentioned that BQ machined the rack fork crown mount so that it sits lower. Looking at the result, I can see why this may lead to increased flex. All I did was cut the tab at the rear shorter, drill a new hole for the fork crown mounting bolt, and shorten the stays. If anything, the shorter tabs and stays should make the rack stiffer. I agree with Grant - the Mark's Rack is totally fine in use. Even during our test that was perhaps as harsh a test as one could devise, nothing came loose, broke or developed problems otherwise. (Regular BQ readers know that this is not a given – we've had a considerable number of failures in our tests.) My comment was only about the fact that everything else about the bike was super-high end and custom, and the rack stood out a bit in that context. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: BQ on Mark's rack
On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 8:13:59 AM UTC-7, Leslie wrote: Seems like, if it's a full custom bike, and you're going w/ carbon fiber, shouldn't you have a carbon fiber rack?Not that I've heard of such, but if you're going custom We once tested a carbon bike with a custom titanium rack... I am afraid that a carbon fiber rack would look a lot like a Pletscher, which is made from sheetmetal rather than tubes. (I cannot envision a rack glued from small-diameter carbon tubes that would be durable and lightweight.) Personally, I like steel, both for frames and racks, because steel can perform as well as any other material, but it is more easily shaped and worked, giving the builder more freedom in designing things, as well as being less expensive. I do understand, however, the appeal of other materials, and even far-out bikes are relatively affordable. To put it in perspective, an $ 11,000 bike is $ 1700 less than the cheapest new car you can buy in this country (I looked it up). So for most of us, it's all about the choices we make, more than how much money we have. I bought my Rivendell custom when I was still a student working on my Ph.D. I made a choice to spend a significant portion of my money on a great bike, rather than other things. Most of all, I like reading about interesting experiences, even if I have no aspiration to replicate them, whether it's exploring Antarctica or driving a $ 200,000 Porsche on a racetrack. I hope our readers similarly enjoy to read what it's like to take a top-of-the-line carbon 650B bike to the limit, even if they don't aspire to own such a bike or ride in such a way. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: BQ on Mark's rack
Consider that we are talking about a full-custom carbon bike that weighs only 21 pounds with 650B tires and lights and costs $ 11,600. In that context, Mark's rack seemed out of place. I'd rather replace the carbon stem with an aluminum one, and spend the savings on a custom rack. A photo of the bike is here: http://www.bikequarterly.com/current_issue.html Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: Your method of going around brake levers with cloth bar tape?
Traditionally, bars were wrapped under the brake levers. You mount the brake levers on the bare bars to get the location correct. Then you take the levers off the clamps, and wrap the bars over the clamps. Attach the brake levers again, and done. It's neat and clean, and doesn't have the bunched-up feel that you get when you criss-cross the cork tape around the brake levers. The cloth tape is strong enough that it won't be cut when you tighten the brake levers against it. (It probably wouldn't work with cork tape.) If you plan to shellac, also do this before you attach the brake levers, so you don't get shellac all over the hoods. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
