Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] An end to A/B/X (DBT) debates? (No, but...)
ezkcdude;183868 Wrote: In the Now, why didn't I think of it? department (well, actually, I did have such an idea once), here's a discussion from Pete Aczel (aka The Audio Critic) of an A/B technique using software to record and normalize the differences induced by changing components in a system (*Audio DiffMaker*, sort of a play on the Unix diff command, I suppose): http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=35blogId=1 Two comments: 1. This sounds very similar to the technique used by Hafler many years ago to demonstrate that their amplifiers introduced no audible distortion. In that, the original signal and the one passed through their amp were level-matched and subtracted from one another to yield a nominally null difference signal. 2. The residual difference after subtraction may well be audible in the context that it is not swamped by the presence of the much larger music signal, but be inaudible when the music signal is included. In other words, this method could produce a positive where ABX gives a negative. For determining whether there is an audible difference *in the context of listening to music*, ABX remains the more accurate measure. -- cliveb Performers - dozens of mixers and effects - clipped/hypercompressed mastering - you think a few extra ps of jitter matters? cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33127 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] An end to A/B/X (DBT) debates? (No, but...)
I feel that driving the speakers and type of speaker are important and of course the technique doesn't work for this part of the system. I fundamentally worry about the overuse of measurement. I have used pro sound level meters which have been unable to satisfactorily measure certain sounds. Unless you use very sophisticated equipment not available to the man in the street then ears are always best. M. -- mudlark SB3CyrusDACXPreXvs260AKEFiQ7 cable Avondale server Kubuntu Edgy, mudlark's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7151 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33127 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
So does anyone actually enjoy listening to their music and not their system any more ;) -- Rangdo Gronda Gronda Rangdo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5238 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
pablolie;183728 Wrote: ... Maybe you 'understand computers' but don't yet know of the advances in DAW technology (shove a good audio interface on a PC - and it's a DAW!) in fairly recent times? Oh geez. I do have a Creative Audigy connected to my silent, $4k built to order computer, you know. I use it to record myself (I am a hobby precussionist). The sound is fx-ish at best - spun out to please the gamers that want bass and treble and artificial fireworks. The bigger the subwoo the better etc. No, I don't buy into that theory at all. It may be 24 bits, it's still rubbish compared to the sound I'll get out of my CD player through my amplifier. A friend of mine has a professional studio. Audigy equipment he uses NOT. You want top end sound at that level, be willing to spend $50k plus in your reproduction chain - prior to getting anywhere close to your monitor speakers. Well - if you have a Creative Audigy card, you're not really in a position to bash computer sound reproduction. They are pretty awful. If you read my post more carefully, you'll see some suggestions for cheap sound cards that are much much better than the Audigy and compare very well with CD players costing four times their price. You certainly don't need to spend 50k to get good computer sound. MOTU units only cost around £1000. -- Codmate Codmate's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7154 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The bottleneck for the ultimate sound experience?
)p(;183866 Wrote: Yes we did. And the Sb3 was only plugged in when it was its turn to be compared. Peter Then the test was good. Of course, hearing no difference does not prove there is no difference -unfortunately. But for your purposes you might as well assume there is no difference. Rgds -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33105 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The bottleneck for the ultimate sound experience?
ezkcdude;183860 Wrote: Right on cue, P. Now, isn't it the pot calling the kettle black just a little bit? I mean, when you tell us the differences you hear between components, we are supposed to believe your ears, right? But, along comes someone who doesn't hear a difference, with his own ears, no less, and here *you of all people* are telling him his test is flawed. That's rich. No, you are not supposed to believe anything. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33105 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] An end to A/B/X (DBT) debates? (No, but...)
ezkcdude;183868 Wrote: In the Now, why didn't I think of it? department (well, actually, I did have such an idea once), here's a discussion from Pete Aczel (aka The Audio Critic) of an A/B technique using software to record and normalize the differences induced by changing components in a system (*Audio DiffMaker*, sort of a play on the Unix diff command, I suppose): http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=35blogId=1 There is nothing new about this method. It's a bit embarrassing for them that they claim it is new. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33127 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
You mean a thread that starts out asking about CD treatment, morphs into cosmic rays, flipped bits, etc, etc. I'm just happy I'm not so sensitive to pick up all these audible differences :D -- Rangdo Gronda Gronda Rangdo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5238 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The bottleneck for the ultimate sound experience?
I don't understand the problem. Why does one need to force oneself to find sonic differences between transport setups when there are obviously none? It just shows how well engineered the SB3 is and we should be happy to have saved money that can be better invested in music... -- mglaudiolabs Regards, Michael MGL Audio Laboratories, Inc. www.mglaudiolabs.com mglaudiolabs's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9570 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33105 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The bottleneck for the ultimate sound experience?
mglaudiolabs;183903 Wrote: I don't understand the problem. Why does one need to force oneself to find sonic differences between transport setups when there are obviously none? It just shows how well engineered the SB3 is and we should be happy to have saved money that can be better invested in music... Would you like to qualify that, or do you mean that all DACs and other digital-input equipment are independent of digital source quality? -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33105 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audio Trends TA-10 Amp (t-amp)
I have a Super-T, and it really offers incredibly detailed reproduction for the cash. My advice would be to put it into some speakers that have decent low-end reproduction. I'm running mine into a pair of little Quad L-ite speakers, and while there is lots of detail and a surprisingly good stereo soundstage, there is a certain harshness at around the 1.5k mark. Going into some older, more worn in speakers this harshness isn't present, and connecting the little Quads to an old NAD amp also eliminates this little frequency hump, so I'm guessing it's to do with the combination. So that is something to think about - but otherwise I think these are very impressive little amps for the money and a perfect match for the SB3. -- Codmate Codmate's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7154 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33112 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The bottleneck for the ultimate sound experience?
)p(;183908 Wrote: A few weeks ago we compared my stock sb to a heavily modded sb into a 47labs set with their progression dac. The differences were easily noticeable. That did surprise me even more at the time. But the 47labs nos dac does not do any reclocking etc. So we were curious how it would do in a set which is less sensitive to jitter. Peter Oh, nooo! You may not first make the objectivists happy by claiming you can't hear a difference, and then turn around and say you can in another system! That is definately not allowed, and will upset many here who know how it is.. ;-) -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33105 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The bottleneck for the ultimate sound experience?
)p(;183911 Wrote: I am not here to make anybody happy in that way, just to have a good conversation about a fun hobby and because I love my sb so much :) p.s. It was a shame that with the 47 labs dac we could not switch in realtime between the sources...maybe even those BIG differences were an illusion...hehe peter I can pretty much guarantee that they most definately must have been an illusion. ABX or nothing, as the saying goes... Rgds -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33105 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
Skunk;183879 Wrote: The precision circuits for the servos, separate housing for the transport/DAC, and resonance damped platter proves that the design of CD players is indeed compromised. Not necessarily. Accuphase CD players are exquisite pieces of engineering, and I'm sure that the care they put into the analogue side of things is justified (at least to a certain extent). But this thread is all about whether there is a flaw in the DIGITAL side of CD replay, and in this domain it is debatable whether the lengths that the likes of Accuphase (and other super-fi manufacturers) go to is necessary. The simple fact of the matter is that very humble low-end CD players are quite capable of delivering bit-perfect digital data streams from even moderately damaged CDs. It takes a heck of a lot of scratches before the C2 error correction stage fails. Only those which have been seriously abused (and those with uncorrectable errors pressed in at the manufacturing stage) pose any kind of problem. -- cliveb Performers - dozens of mixers and effects - clipped/hypercompressed mastering - you think a few extra ps of jitter matters? cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The bottleneck for the ultimate sound experience?
P Floding;183905 Wrote: Would you like to qualify that, or do you mean that all DACs and other digital-input equipment are independent of digital source quality? No, I don't doubt there are differences. But if the PLL/receiver circuits of the DAC were carefully designed and properly implemented, the differences are astonishingly small. -- mglaudiolabs Regards, Michael MGL Audio Laboratories, Inc. www.mglaudiolabs.com mglaudiolabs's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9570 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33105 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The bottleneck for the ultimate sound experience?
mglaudiolabs;183914 Wrote: No, I don't doubt there are differences. But if the PLL/receiver circuits of the DAC were carefully designed and properly implemented, the differences are astonishingly small. That's a massive if! And what about ASRCs? -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33105 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Greek Audiophile
That's hillarious, thanks -- y360 y360's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10150 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33125 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] An end to A/B/X (DBT) debates? (No, but...)
P Floding;183895 Wrote: There is nothing new about this method. It's a bit embarrassing for them that they claim it is new. Can you point us to a reference? -- ezkcdude DIY projects page: http://www.ezdiyaudio.com System: SB3-EZDAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33127 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to turn off the volume control?
I'm reading and learning; http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?HowtoBestAudioQuality As I'm using an external DAC I want to turn off the volume control as described, but I can't find the link for player settings. Peter -- Audiofilia Audiofilia's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10384 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Greek Audiophile
This high(er)-quality version has been posted here before: http://homepage.mac.com/savagebean/iMovieTheater11.html http://homepage.mac.com/savagebean/.Movies/ACA%20FestivalFinal%20MixDown.mov -- flipflip Check out flipflip's 'SlimServer On DiskStation (SSODS)' (http://oinkzwurgl.org/ssods/)! flipflip's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5223 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33125 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The bottleneck for the ultimate sound experience?
As stated in the beginning I try to maximize the performance of the already superb SB3. Thanks for many ideas and thoughts. At least I will try the following: 1. Turn off the internal volume ( if I succeed to find the link to the player settings on the slimserver skin ) as suggested http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?HowtoBestAudioQuality 2. A new power unit for the SB3 I have an adjustable linear laboratory power unit and oscilloscope etc. so I can check things out. 3. Experiment with Flac and Wav instead of Apple lossless to avoid transcoding on the server Rgds Audiofilia Peter -- Audiofilia Audiofilia's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10384 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33105 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Greek Audiophile
Good heavens. -- mudlark SB3CyrusDACXPreXvs260AKEFiQ7 cable Avondale server Kubuntu Edgy, mudlark's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7151 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33125 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
pablolie;183869 Wrote: And you seemed to made the point the superiority of computer based audo is its supposed ability to utterly eliminate bit errors, and if I am attributing it to you wrongly I apologize - it's a claim that was made earlier in this thread. And I have simply never seen any data or proof or material anywhere that shows that a red book audio CD playing in a regular CD player is plagued by enough bit errors to fundamentally make it inferior to a PC-based system where the CD has been ripped into it. There is no reason why, in prinicple, the latter can't sound just as good as the high end CD player. I never stated otherwise. All of us with a SB know that, and appreciate it. All I am saying is my own CD player to this day sounds better than *my* PC system, and that I doubt I'd hear the PC system sound *better* if I invested effort in getting it there. Yeah, my audio chain is pretty good. It'd be great to have a system that is more compact and versatile, which is where the PC system will eventually play its trump card - it will be that, not sound quality, in my opinion, because existing high end audio has reached a very high evolutionary stage where it seems too good for the vast majority of recorded material out there... So the deal is: I believe PC based systems will win out, and look forward to it. But it's more due to convenience and versatility rather than sound quality, which is pretty darn good in audiophile systems as it is. You mentioned you tend to enjoy your CD player much more then anything compter based. Ma be you should just try to figure out why. I know why. It's better because I have invested far more time and money into it, and since I have now the SQB I can bid my time figuring out what the next evolutionary step of the PC as the enabler for high end audio may be. I have found the answer to link the two worlds perfectly: the Squeezebox. So we basically agreed :) I said that major real world advantage of playing ripped CDs on HDD based system vs. standalone CDP is convenience, not SQ. I also said that computer based system have only advantages over CDP - meaning not that CDP is flawed, but that computer based system is unlimited expandable, as Sean mentioned, can easily surpass CDP because we're not limited to 44.1/16. BTW, system using SB as a source is computer based, I don't know why do you consider SB as The Third Way. Music is streamed from hard drive, and SB is just a remote SPDIF interface module. -- 325xi simaudio nova cdp simaudio moon i-5 revel performa m20 via acoustic zen matrix reference ii and acoustic zen satori -planned additions:... deq2496 lavry da-10 ...- 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to turn off the volume control?
OK, I found the link End of thread -- Audiofilia Audiofilia's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10384 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33136 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audio Trends TA-10 Amp (t-amp)
Well, I got the TA-10.1 T-amp, and tried a quick test with my best speakers (EPOS ES-12) - unfortunately they are very hard work for the T-amp. They're not particularly sensitive, and I read something about them being demanding of an amp and later versions (M12, M12.2) were more forgiving. It was a very quick test, and I couldn't draw any conclusion. It is very different from my Creek 4330. The first thing that struck me was the bass, and not in a good way, even though I'm not a bass-fiend. I didn't expect strength, but the clarity seemed to be absent. With the Creek + Epos, on hearing a bass drum the image of the striker (terminology?) hitting the skin clearly forms in my head. With the T-amp there was just a muffled low tone which could have been anything - not much quieter, just much less distinct. Take this with a pinch of salt though - it was a very brief test. The kind of forwardness of the mid and upper end was striking. I need to listen much more to form an opinion. It took me aback through Creek-attuned ears, but then I started to appreciate the detail I was hearing. At the weekend I may get time to sit there and give it a good listen. Until then it's doing duty in the kitchen driving some Optimus speakers that sound like they're operating in a bucket of water. At least when listening to net radio, the newsreaders' voices sound mellow ;). There's a long and awkward delay when I switch the cables, and any hope of a blind test is out the window. The only people I could call on for help would be laughing and rolling their eyes too much. I could actually compare it to an original Sonic Impact T-amp, because I ordered that for my purpose originally, then started looking for a power supply, and discovered the TA-10.1, and decided to stump up the big bucks ($130) for that. The only problem is I couldn't fit my speaker cables into the SI-T-amp. Shame if it's not up to the Epos - I was contemplating buying some used M12s. Perhaps I could buy another TA-10.1 and bi-amp them. That might help :). -- jimmyfergus jimmyfergus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4323 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33112 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Greek Audiophile
Is it just me or do the wives and girl friends look a little e not best pleased when the price of systems is discussed Actually told my wife about the clip and then I was asked, So then how much have you spent...? Ooops, My £3.2k was a bit of a shock to me too (only just started out you see :), considering my car is worth about, well alittle above scrap value, and after the 100+k figures I was ok-ish :) -- Deaf Cat Deaf Cat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=515 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33125 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC for SB
Looks like it worked out very nicely. My home isn't as old, but I had experienced dimming of the lights at an older home when I was much younger and I used to blast my old Yamaha M85 285 W/C amp. The tweak that I'm considering is getting a good power cord along with a new receptacle for my amp to see how much that helps. I can't tell what type of outlets you're using in the pictures, but there's a lot of talk about significant improvements by replacing them with Cryo treated ones from Hubble, Furutech, Oyaide, and PS Audio. Check out the many posts about this on Audiogon or the following post on Audio Asylum for more info: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/85285.html -- zzvelik zzvelik's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10205 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32740 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] An end to A/B/X (DBT) debates? (No, but...)
ezkcdude;183929 Wrote: Can you point us to a reference? I read about the method in a hifi magazine around the year 2001, and I used it myself at around the same time. Unfortunately I have thrown away most of my mags. Thanks to cliveb for finding a reference on the web -saving me the work. (The UK hifi mag's are bad at archiving anything on the web.) -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33127 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to increase quality of server side music...
SlimServer will indicate whether it will be applying a volume adjustment, just click on the track name. Look for Volume Adjustment and Album Volume Adjustment in the fields. -- Mark Lanctot It's like, you know, a New Age religion, but with better treble response. - Jon Heal Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33095 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] An end to A/B/X (DBT) debates? (No, but...)
cliveb;183944 Wrote: Mr Floding may come up with other references, but here's one that seems relevant: AES Preprint 3137 - Towards a Definitive Analysis of Audio System Errors; Chris Dunn Malcolm Hawksford, Sept 1991. Rather than pay the AES for it, you can get it from the Essex University Archives at http://www.essex.ac.uk/ese/research/audio_lab/malcolmspubdocs/C30%20Analysis%20of%20audio%20system%20errors.pdf Thanks! That is a nice reference, and I think it backs up the point even further. This is certainly an interesting road to travel IMHO. -- ezkcdude DIY projects page: http://www.ezdiyaudio.com System: SB3-EZDAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33127 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] An end to A/B/X (DBT) debates? (No, but...)
Codmate;183946 Wrote: Thinking about it some more... ...the main problem with what they are proposing is in the recording part of the process. The idea was to record the output from a component (i.e. preamp or amp), not from the speakers. So, if you are testing a source (i.e. SB3, cd player, DAC), record the output from the preamp. If you are testing the preamp, itself, record the output from the amp. Only if you are testing the amplifier, would you then need to get the output from the speakers. -- ezkcdude DIY projects page: http://www.ezdiyaudio.com System: SB3-EZDAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33127 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] An end to A/B/X (DBT) debates? (No, but...)
ezkcdude;183982 Wrote: The idea was to record the output from a component (i.e. preamp or amp), not from the speakers. So, if you are testing a source (i.e. SB3, cd player, DAC), record the output from the preamp. If you are testing the preamp, itself, record the output from the amp. Only if you are testing the amplifier, would you then need to get the output from the speakers. Ahhh - that makes much more sense! -- Codmate Codmate's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7154 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33127 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] An end to A/B/X (DBT) debates? (No, but...)
P Floding;183980 Wrote: I read about the method in a hifi magazine around the year 2001, and I used it myself at around the same time. Unfortunately I have thrown away most of my mags. Thanks to cliveb for finding a reference on the web -saving me the work. (The UK hifi mag's are bad at archiving anything on the web.) P.S: The idea of subtracting one signal from the other to find out the difference is much older than 1991, of course. It is just the available tools that have changed. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33127 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] An end to A/B/X (DBT) debates? (No, but...)
Carver tweaked one of his amps to sound like a tube amp, fed one channel into one speaker, fed one channel of a high end tube amp into another speaker and placed the speakers face to face, I think just a few inches a part. I don't remember, but he must have reversed the phases. The result total cancellation, no sound being emitted. His claim, the two amps were identical. Hard to believe the results could be so clear. But Carver is well known his habit of shaking up the audio community. By the way, I briefly owned a Carver amp back then, hated the sound. Shrill. -- regalma1 regalma1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6658 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33127 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audio Trends TA-10 Amp (t-amp)
You really need some efficient speakers with those amps, or they will sound 'underwhelming' :) Some names that come to mind are LothX, Omega, Zu, Totem, older Klipsch, and of course all the single driver DIY speakers (fostex, hemptone, visaton, lowther or anything cheap on ebay with a whizzer cone). Lots of cheap stuff on audiogon as well, including subs which will probably be needed to fill out the lower Hz of any of those speakers. I realize you're not trying to replace your main setup, but wanted to offer suggestions anyway. I've found magnet wire/Anti-cables fit as speaker wire in the spring clips, but also has a tendency to roll off the bass even further. It may be worth trying some smaller diameter stranded wires like zip cord. Thanks for adding your thoughts. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33112 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to increase quality of server side music...
Mark Lanctot;183981 Wrote: SlimServer will indicate whether it will be applying a volume adjustment, just click on the track name. Look for Volume Adjustment and Album Volume Adjustment in the fields. I think the word I was searching for was 'normalizing', WRT ways the ripper might cause this. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33095 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to increase quality of server side music...
Skunk;184017 Wrote: I think the word I was searching for was 'normalizing', WRT ways the ripper might cause this. Dang, I usually quote who I'm responding to. When I don't I often get called out. I wasn't referring to your post specifically, Skunk. :-) I'll revise the post. -- Mark Lanctot It's like, you know, a New Age religion, but with better treble response. - Jon Heal Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33095 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] An end to A/B/X (DBT) debates? (No, but...)
regalma1;184007 Wrote: Carver tweaked one of his amps to sound like a tube amp, fed one channel into one speaker, fed one channel of a high end tube amp into another speaker and placed the speakers face to face, I think just a few inches a part. I don't remember, but he must have reversed the phases. The result total cancellation, no sound being emitted. His claim, the two amps were identical. Hard to believe the results could be so clear. But Carver is well known his habit of shaking up the audio community. By the way, I briefly owned a Carver amp back then, hated the sound. Shrill. If they were face to face then the signals would have been non-inverted (both the same polarity). -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33127 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
cliveb;183913 Wrote: But this thread is all about whether there is a flaw in the DIGITAL side of CD replay, and in this domain it is debatable whether the lengths that the likes of Accuphase (and other super-fi manufacturers) go to is necessary. Good point and thanks for setting me straight. This is actually the assumption I started with as well, but got caught up in playing devil's advocate. I was never trying to say HDD audio is superior, only equal and more convenient (you've helped me understand this before WRT the steve nugent docs IIRC). Getting the info from disc-disk is not the hard part, it's the questionable part. A good test might (?) be feeding I2S into the Sb from a Pro2M or other decent transport, preferably in the same box, then doing jitter measurements at the DAC to compare with streamed audio. John Swenson was working on something similar, so perhaps he can comment. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
cliveb;183913 Wrote: Not necessarily. Accuphase CD players are exquisite pieces of engineering, and I'm sure that the care they put into the analogue side of things is justified (at least to a certain extent). That's the fun stuff. Since everything manufactured does indeed represent a compromise, to me something like the Accuphase is an example for a fascinating shy no costs in the end as-close-as-feasible to uncomprimised given the original limitations of the overall design. Just like I have a rather irrational fascination for mechanical watches and don't own a single quartz watch, I enjoy the mechanical engineering that goes into a good CD drive. And there are far more extreme engineering manifestations of that than the Accuphase... cliveb;183913 Wrote: But this thread is all about whether there is a flaw in the DIGITAL side of CD replay, and in this domain it is debatable whether the lengths that the likes of Accuphase (and other super-fi manufacturers) go to is necessary. Once stuff is stored digitally of course the mechanical side of it is utterly superfluous, and I can already see the day when my CD player will go into a dustry box in the garage to join my trust, old (and at the time expensive) cassette player. We agree when it comes to that. But the discussion went beyond that - it stated (albeit possibly not you) that CD players in general were flawed due to the fact they were plagued by bit erros, since they didn't get the luxury of repeated runs. Thus I replied, tongue in cheek with irony no one seemed to get (which actually makes it my fault in delivery), that if random erros afflict analogue CD players as much, then the digital chain surely has its share of possible statistical anomalies in audio reproduction. That was all. cliveb;183913 Wrote: The simple fact of the matter is that very humble low-end CD players are quite capable of delivering bit-perfect digital data streams from even moderately damaged CDs. I recall every high end stereo magazine included error correction tests when reviewing analogue CD players, and they didn't fare badly as all for moderately damaged CDs. So I remain sceptical that the digital realm has the huge supposed advantage there, especially given the fact that many of the ripping advocates seem to be convinced ripping is an art that requires a lot of extra tools to avoid bit errors that, from what I can tell, were never a prevalent problem in analogue CD audio delivery (unless one truly roughed up his CDs). cliveb;183913 Wrote: It takes a heck of a lot of scratches before the C2 error correction stage fails. Only those which have been seriously abused (and those with uncorrectable errors pressed in at the manufacturing stage) pose any kind of problem. Which is why I asked that question about the problems that supposedly afflict ripping, and got a very good answer in the end. I have not once, in ripping over a 1,000 CDs, seen dBpoweramp report a single bit error - but it's reported many inconsistencies in the AccurateRip database... -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
325xi;183956 Wrote: So we basically agreed :) ... BTW, system using SB as a source is computer based, I don't know why do you consider SB as The Third Way. Music is streamed from hard drive, and SB is just a remote SPDIF interface module. Which to me makes the SB part of the audio world, but it's just a matter of which side of the fence you're observing things from. Because then, by the same logic, half my CD player is part of the computer based world... Let's just agree that things like the SB represent a wonderful blur of the two worlds, which seemed irreconciliable before the SB arrived, it seemed. The idea has huge potential, it's a huge step in truly revolutionizing high end audio as we've known it for ages. In fact, the current landscape is a bit disporienting as a moderate audiophile. When I look at my chain and consider new loudspeakers, I am starting to think what the requirements will be 5 years down the line to make it worth the investment... and the truth is I don't know, so I am likely to stay put for now (unless I win the lottery). -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
Skunk;184027 Wrote: A good test might (?) be feeding I2S into the Sb from a Pro2M or other decent transport, preferably in the same box, then doing jitter measurements at the DAC to compare with streamed audio. Actually the Sb3 would have to be tested without the transport mechanism in the same box, or at least not powered/spinning while the test takes place. For me the biggest downside of cd players isn't skips, not getting all the bits, or even having to get off my arse. It's having extra electro/mechanical variables in the same box. These components are working simultaneously alongside the DAC, whereas in HDD audio the variable is eliminated completely. Sorry for continuing the devil's advocate thing.. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MP3 Car FM Transmitters
To the OP: I got my Griffin iTrip for my Nano (mk I) today, and I wouldn't recommend it. The way it grips the nano using some sticky pad is hardly confidence inspiring. FM noise was pretty high (may depend on my particular car's antenna), and increased if charging at the same time as listening. Even so, it doesn't turn off automatically during quiet passages, like my Belkin did, and it still sounds better than most FM stations out there, so I'll use it. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33045 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MP3 Car FM Transmitters
You can go down the Dension route: http://www.dension.com/main.htm This is proper MP3/iPod integration. As others have said the FM transmitters are next to useless. Other alternative is to ask your car dealer if there is an Pod/MP3 integration for your model (I had them install an aux input in my BMW) or chuck the old car radio away and install one that has iPod integration built in. I bought the Alpine for another car and it works a treat for £99.99 e.g.: http://www.alpinecaraudio.co.uk/product_info.php/products_id/1051 -- Heuer Heuer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2543 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33045 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
pablolie;184033 Wrote: When I look at my chain and consider new loudspeakers, I am starting to think what the requirements will be 5 years down the line to make it worth the investment... and the truth is I don't know, so I am likely to stay put for now (unless I win the lottery). That's going to be my own dilemma quite soon - exactly about speakers. But quality speakers hold their value pretty well, better then any digital components, aren't they? So I don't know how worthy it is to wait 5 years. As I've seen in someone's post in 5 years you'll be 5 years older and uglier :) I also don't understand how much the requirements can change beyond the amount of speakers required. Do you believe in 5 years stereo will be non-existent? I'm considering moving from my current Revels to Caravelles, but I have no place to hear them. -- 325xi simaudio nova cdp simaudio moon i-5 revel performa m20 via acoustic zen matrix reference ii and acoustic zen satori -planned additions:... deq2496 lavry da-10 ...- 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
Sorry guys for most likely stupid question, but that's a thing I couldn't find a definitive answer using all my experience in Googling :) I've seen many claims that optical connection is inferior to coaxial because it somehow introduces jitter. There even were measurements of output jitter on coax and optical outs of the same device, and the latter was much worse (I don't remember where I originally read this, so no link). Some also say the LED on transmitter burns out rather quickly on consumer gear, so the transmission line becomes unreliable. What's going on in real? Is optical inferior for hi-end audio application indeed? Does jitter issue exist? -- 325xi simaudio nova cdp simaudio moon i-5 revel performa m20 via acoustic zen matrix reference ii and acoustic zen satori -planned additions:... deq2496 lavry da-10 ...- 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
Personally I use Auric Illuminator, but only out of habit. It certainly helps with some disk read errors but then again it could just be the act of cleaning. Maybe you could try one of these: http://www.furutech.com/produ_2.asp?ProdNo=242 Demagnetises vinyl as well as CD. Mad as a box of frogs or what? -- Heuer Heuer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2543 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC for SB
Dimmers are a no-no in audiodisconnect them. -- Anne Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32740 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
http://www.lessloss.com/ -- Anne Anne's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
325xi;183956 Wrote: So we basically agreed :)I said that major real world advantage of playing ripped CDs on HDD based system vs. standalone CDP is convenience, not SQ. I agree. I like the convenience, but my tranport DVDP still have better SQ than the SB. Has anyone compared the SB's SQ wireless verses a CAT5 connection? -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
jhm731;184070 Wrote: I agree. I like the convenience, but my tranport DVDP still have better SQ than the SB. Has anyone compared the SB's SQ wireless verses a CAT5 connection? All right, just note this is so not because of old technology is superior, but due to specifics of implementation of your system. Can you describe your systems? Both SB and DVDP based? -- 325xi simaudio nova cdp simaudio moon i-5 revel performa m20 via acoustic zen matrix reference ii and acoustic zen satori -planned additions:... deq2496 lavry da-10 ...- 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
325xi;184051 Wrote: That's going to be my own dilemma quite soon - exactly about speakers. But quality speakers hold their value pretty well, better then any digital components, aren't they? A friend (and I am fully aware a lot of dubious speculation gets started just like this :) was telling me that excellent speaker systems which connect via Ethernet to a DSP array and of course include very clean amplification stages are in the pipeline. Built-in corrections for sound nirvana all around. Not sure. Sounds gimmicky, like a Bose system on steroids, and to me those are enjoyable entertainment, but don't cut the mustard when I want to listen to John Coltrane while sipping a glass of Turley Old Zinf, you know. I am thinking Piegas or BWs to replace my trusty old tuned German speakers. I was listening to 803s and was -predictably- very impressed. I hear great stuff about Piegas... if one can get them in California. -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
I have done side-by-side testing of the coax and optical digital outputs from my SB3, running into the same DAC (a Dodson 263, which does not have a jitter buffer), listening through a very revealing pair of AKG K1000 headphones. I repeatedly switched back and forth between the two connections at random moments in numerous pieces of music. I was unable to detect any sonic difference whatsoever between the two. I'm using the optical connection in my system now. One big advantage of optical is that it galvanically isolates the components, so there is no chance of forming a ground loop. Maybe over a number of years, the optical LED in the SB3 will wear out, but then I could just switch over to coax, or buy a new SBx. -- TiredLegs TiredLegs's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Audio Trends TA-10 Amp (t-amp)
I have a T-amp in my computer system and use it for very casual listening. It's fine (i.e. surprisingly good) at low power but can't drive speakers properly - you'd need 90++ dB/W speakers to get sensible levels, IMO. In general I'd say the T-amps are a true hi-fi bargain in that they offer decent fidelity for a near-zero price, but don't expect miracles, especially at real listening levels. A proper amp like a Creek, at ten times the price, *is* going to be better. Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost and Anti-cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33112 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MP3 Car FM Transmitters
ModelCitizen;183523 Wrote: I have the standard supplied Bose system in my Audi TT and it really rocks.. no complaints whatsoever... from my experience of this unit I can't see why people slag off Bose so much. It sounds much better than the Blaupunkt in my last vehicle (a VW Golf). My Bose car system sounds better than any other car system I have had, but it still sounds pretty awful. It just increases the ratio of radio 4 to radio 3, but there you go. MC, it looks from your changing sigs that you're turning into a bit of a Dawkins fan...? Is hi-fi the new religion? Adam -- adamslim SB3 into Derek Shek d2, Shanling CDT-100, Rotel RT-990BX, Esoteric Audio Research 859, Living Voice Auditorium IIs, Nordost and Anti-cables http://www.last.fm/user/AdamSlim/ adamslim's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7355 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33045 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
I use the optical mainly to keep the whole grounding stuff out of the equation while I am fiddling with other options for now. I'll probably get back to testing at a later stage. I'd be surprised if the optical part introduces more jitter - the behavior of the optical IF ought to be very preductable, and in theory less likely to be disturbed by external interference (unless you bend the heck out of the cable). The stuff that happens over distance -dispersion and attentuation- ought to be easy to control in an audio echain. Electrical in theory allows more RF interference in, and possibly some residual hum... not sure. My listening tests will eventually look more into the IF stuff, and I'll even have to revisit my current DA approach. -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] MP3 Car FM Transmitters
adamslim;184085 Wrote: My Bose car system sounds better than any other car system I have had, but it still sounds pretty awful. It just increases the ratio of radio 4 to radio 3, but there you go. MC, it looks from your changing sigs that you're turning into a bit of a Dawkins fan...? Is hi-fi the new religion? Adam I love the hifi in my car. It's loud, clear, good stereo separation but really it just rocks... all the energetic, fast music (electronic and analogue) just fits so well with the Audi's small cockpit and speed... some of the best adrenaline fuelled times (I was speeding along small country lanes home from work this evening with the Bose pumping out St Etienne's Amateur... almost trancendental). I thought that quote was Sagan.. but I could be wrong. Dawkins has been my hero since I read the Selfish Gene in my teens. I am now a fully signed up member of Dawkins brigade to bring Atheism well out of the closet. HiFi is well... hifi... MC -- ModelCitizen It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Transporter Naim NAP 250 PMC OB1s. http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33045 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
325xi;184074 Wrote: All right, just note this is so not because of old technology is superior, but due to specifics of implementation of your system. Can you describe your systems? Both SB and DVDP based? Modified Pioneer DV45a or SB3 w/linear psu-Aberdeen 2150- Custom Made Speakers(Focal drivers). -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
No optical is NOT inferior and is used extensively in certain professional circumstances. At the frequencies and distances involved in domestic digital applications this is a non-issue. In fact I would go as far as to say that optical is preferable in many circumstances due to the lack of galvanic coupling. This is one of the great audio myths of our time. (similar to all switching supplies are inherently flawed and jitter doesn't exist anymore because transports and DACs are so great) -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
I don't know if it creates an audible change but most optical cable is subject to output level variations with bending. This effect is orders of magnitude greater than with coax cable, even at coax at microwave frequencies. The effect is very dramatic. So I imagine if you were to cause a vibration in the cable at an audio frequency there might be an analog signal introduced into the path. And maybe somehow it would get through the optical to electrical converter and all the various digital circuitry and then to the DAC, where it could introduce noise in the output - maybe. But then again a coax cable can carry any EMI that is in the digital source or is picked up by the cable. That is something an optical cable won't do. There is optical cable out there that is immune to bending. We are using some it here with our optical to electrical equipment. Maybe these high zoot cable manufacturers ought to use it. Then they could make a claim based on facts, though whether it makes an audible difference or not, who knows. A simple set of electrical measurements could settle this quickly. Jitter can be measured to levels well below the apparent threshold of human detection. We make low cost equipment that measures it to below 10 picoseconds. Unfortunately it is for use only at much higher frequencies. Has anyone seen anything backed up by measurements? -- regalma1 regalma1's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6658 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
regalma1;184097 Wrote: I don't know if it creates an audible change but most optical cable is subject to output level variations with bending. This effect is orders of magnitude greater than with coax cable, even at coax at microwave frequencies. The effect is very dramatic. Or not at all, if you stay within the specified bending radius for an optical cable. They're quite flexible, I'm told they really need to get abused until any signal attenuation may happen, and probably even more before signal degradation that affects audio quality (here comes error correction again :-P) happens. regalma1;184097 Wrote: A simple set of electrical measurements could settle this quickly. Jitter can be measured to levels well below the apparent threshold of human detection. Jitter in the digital signal path shouldn't matter, or am I crazy? The key is that the DA converter doesn't spit the variations one to one, and I think decent DA converters invest a lot into that. Hence some buffering, to make sure that irrespective of input buffering you can always feed something into conversion without ever starving it. Or not? -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
Phil Leigh;184095 Wrote: This is one of the great audio myths of our time. To paraphrase Jean Luc Picard in First Contact, The physics of the audiophile world are somewhat different. Here are some of the principles I have perceived since my recent introduction to the audiophile world (and all I thought I was doing was ripping my CDs and buying some nice speakers and a good amp). 1. If a listener claims an audible difference, then it exists. (I hear it, therefore it is) 2. If it exists, any amount of new physics or engineering is plausible to explain the audible difference. 3. Audible difference is never due to suggestion, placebo perceptiual illusion or confirmation bias. Ergo DBT is not required. 4. The obligation to refute audible difference is on the skeptic not the perceiver. 5. All devices, regardless of physical or engineering principles to the contray, influence and colour sound. 6. There is no known threshold of engineering beyond which changes no longer impact sound (corollary of (5)) In the classical world of high end computer networking which deals in orders of magnitude higher signal rates, and is vastly more senstivity to small error rates, and is carefully instrumented to measure bit error rate, the thought that optical connections are inferior to coaxial induce fall off the chair hilarity. As a point of calibration on this topic, I have seen a paper assessing the limits of audibility of jitter in a controlled listening blind study to be around +-.5us using a syncrononous clocked environment. I am having difficulty understanding how even the cheapest s/pdif transmitted could not hold that, but I do admit to not having spent any time looking at the engineering of S/PDIF circuits. As Sean has measured this kind of stuff all the way down to picoseconds, which deeply impresses me as a sort of uber-geek thing to do I suspect he has the definitive word on this subject buried somewhere in the SD forum postings. Site specific google searches would help this. Kudos to Sean for at least characterizing it. Now, full well knowning ps level jitter control likely well exceeds the don't care thresholds, I still bought a Transporter because I so admired the engineering precision that went into it. Its like buying a Swiss watch: you don't really need that level of precision to get to the meeting on time, but you sure do admire the engineering work that went into it. I know I will get flamed for this posting. But I sure do like the clause in Hydrogen Audio's forum AUP that requires DBT to support claims of improvement or difference. And I really do think I have fairly summarized the position of the subjectivist community on this stuff. To be fair the intensity of (2) varies. Its really hard not to answer the OPs question without dealing with this point. In summary, the short answer is that in the classical networking wold, even in syncronous bit transport clocking, there is no known mechanism that could cause a properly engineered optical connection to be in any way inferior to a coaxial one. But reading a spec sheet on the transmitter/receiver chipset and internal clock circuit would resolve this question conclusively. In the world of audiophile physics, if you hear a difference, then by all means use coax over optical. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
Advantages of optical cable over coax are obvious, they are listed many many times everywhere. And I have no doubt optical used in pro applications a lot. This, however, doesn't mean an average implementation in mid-priced audiophile gear is as good. I'm concerned with lots of claims on Audiogon and Asylum that optical connection sounds and measures worse then coax, assuming the latter was used in normal, not especially noisy environment. I also heard about issues with cable quality: some issues with reflection when plastic fibre isn't ideally cut (most of reasonably priced cables are made of plastic, not glass - theoretically this is totally fine for lengths under 100m). Also, if there's no problem with optical, I'm just puzzled why like everybody uses coax, and consider optical as a last measure in case of excessive noise? -- 325xi simaudio nova cdp simaudio moon i-5 revel performa m20 via acoustic zen matrix reference ii and acoustic zen satori -planned additions:... deq2496 lavry da-10 ...- 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDCD ripping
Phil, Not sure if you threw in the towel on this or not, but I have two more updates. 1. I got WMP10 and it WILL give me the HDCD icon. Just not 100% of the time. My problem turned out to be I had the wrong Windows Media Run Time package loaded. Deleting it and reupgrading succeeded in getting WMP 10 installed. 2. Check out 'this posting' (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=showtopic=30999view=findpostp=475231) on Hydrogen Audio. A poster there appears to show positive results on HDCD decode visible in the waveform. I think I need to try buying another HDCD. Its been suggested that some HDCDs dont use the compression feature in the mastering process. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32967 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
Eric Carroll;184105 Wrote: I know I will get flamed for this posting. But I sure do like the clause in Hydrogen Audio's forum AUP that requires DBT to support claims of improvement or difference. Not sure why you would get flamed. The fact of the matter is psychoacoustics matter. You hear to exactly the same sound in a room that does not appeal to you, and it'll sound worse to you than if you listen to it in an environment that pleases you. It's not measurable, but it's nevertheless a subjective listening reality. The same can be said about equipment aesthetics etc... Measurable sound improvement? No. But does it sound better to someone somewhere - all the more power to them if it improves their listening experience... I am always very scpetical when people claim something's based on physics. There was a time when they could prove the sun circled the earth with physics. :-) On the other hand, I don't think *everything* needs to be measurable and quantifiable to be valid in an art as esoteric as high end audio, which is somewhat irrational to start with. -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
Eric, what I was asking for is some technical information and advice, not mockery-style reply. Although I totally agree about Swiss watch thing - that's why I'm interested in getting the best even though I might not hear it in real. Advantages of optical cable over coax are obvious, they are listed many many times everywhere. And I have no doubt optical used in pro applications a lot. This, however, doesn't mean an average implementation in mid-priced audiophile gear is as good. *I tend to think that cables and transmitter/receiver devices used for optical networking are vastly different from the one in my CD player.* I happen to check it with electronics engineer, and he confirmed that. I also heard about issues with cable quality: some issues with reflection when plastic fibre isn't ideally cut (most of reasonably priced cables are made of plastic, not glass - theoretically this is totally fine for reasonably short lengths). Again - LEDs quality. I really not sure your comparison with networking gear is valid. -- 325xi simaudio nova cdp simaudio moon i-5 revel performa m20 via acoustic zen matrix reference ii and acoustic zen satori -planned additions:... deq2496 lavry da-10 ...- 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
jhm731;184094 Wrote: Modified Pioneer DV45a or SB3 w/linear psu-Aberdeen 2150- Custom Made Speakers(Focal drivers). Sorry for my ignorance, but what is Aberdeen 2150? I'm just wondering what DAC and amp do you use? -- 325xi simaudio nova cdp simaudio moon i-5 revel performa m20 via acoustic zen matrix reference ii and acoustic zen satori -planned additions:... deq2496 lavry da-10 ...- 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDCD ripping
Eric, I have also done some testing on this. I've used a 1992 HDCD sampler from Reference Recordings (RR-S3 CD) and I believe I can see the dynamic expansion on the exports via the Cronotron plugin. I want to check this by recording the same track from the analog output of a HDCD equipped CD player. The problem is I will have to borrow a player to do this so it will take some days before I can get it done. Eric Carroll wrote: Phil, Not sure if you threw in the towel on this or not, but I have two more updates. 1. I got WMP10 and it WILL give me the HDCD icon. Just not 100% of the time. My problem turned out to be I had the wrong Windows Media Run Time package loaded. Deleting it and reupgrading succeeded in getting WMP 10 installed. 2. Check out 'this posting' (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=showtopic=30999view=findpostp=475231) on Hydrogen Audio. A poster there appears to show positive results on HDCD decode visible in the waveform. I think I need to try buying another HDCD. Its been suggested that some HDCDs dont use the compression feature in the mastering process. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
Sorry, my response was not directed at you specifically 325xi in any way, I wasn't trying to mock or be in any way insulting. Apologies if it came across like that. I was actually amplifying Phil's very correct response and the references from other sources on this topic. I guess I suspect that that trying to answer your question is going to induce a certain reaction and I guess I was getting ready in advance for it. TOSLINK is just a LED with a piece of plastic. There is NO QUESTION it is inferior to a high end 10 Gb/s OC48 or OC768 (if you can find one) short haul or long haul interface. Those optics are dealing with electro-optic interfaces with clock cycles in the .1ns - 1ns regime. That's fast. Audio is 44.1 KHz. That's slow. At 44.1KHz you are dealing with clock cycles in the 20us regime, 5 orders of magnitude slower. So clocks are slower, equipment can be less good. A LED is easily good enough in this regime for some value of good enough. But the question is if an TOSLINK is less good than the 75ohm variant. Maybe yes, maybe not. Its measurable for sure. But I don't think that is really the issue. The issue is what is the requirement for the transport? What specifications must it support? So I think you question might break down as: a. is there any intrinsic physical reason why an optical connection of LEDs and plastic is less good (for some measures) than coax? b. Is toslink as a syncronous architecture defective to the requirements? c. are there possible manufacturing design reasons one is less than another d. does this in any way matter to the listening experience? Is it audible? (a) I know of no reason, intrinsincally, that a LED and plastic cable should not be able to match coax FOR THE REQUIREMENTS at hand. It might have some slightly better rise fall propertises depending on the LED selected, (I would need to look into that) but I doubt it - communication LED technology has come a long way and is dirt cheap now. Low end networking gear doesn't use real lasers anymore as this technology has improved so much over the years. b) well, depends on what you want it for. Seems to do ok for consume grade audio motion. Its definately got weak points. But I wouldn't classify it as flawed. Let's look at the requirement. If you accept (and here is the issue) that audibility is +-.5us or so, then you are asking for a LED with switching characteristics in the .5 MHz regime. Thats SLOW. So I would really doubt this is a problem. I stand to be corrected on this by some spec sheets of common gear. c) yes, it is possible some manufacturer fubared their design. If so its not TOSLINKs fault as a design. Bad cables impact networks the world over. But in a .5-1 MHz signal regime the cable has to be pretty appaling. d) This is the kicker. If you think that you need +-100ps jitter control on a TOSLINK connection than there is no way a LED and plastic can achieve that. If you think you need +-.5us I don't see how it couldn't achieve it. Its all in the requirements you believe a TOSLINK has to achieve. I'll do a little research and check some numbers here on this to confirm my intuition on this. Hopefully this is a better answer... -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] CD Treatments?
325xi;184122 Wrote: Sorry for my ignorance, but what is Aberdeen 2150? I'm just wondering what DAC and amp do you use? An Aberdeen 2150 is a highly modified TacT 2150, which is a power DAC rated at 150w/ch @ 8 ohms. -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32993 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDCD ripping
Cool! So now I have to go buy a different HDCD and decode it for real. Then I have to ABX it to see if all this was worth anything ;-) -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32967 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
Eric Carroll;184125 Wrote: PS: to me, as a networking guy, the CD to DAC or whatever TOSLINK connection is just a synchronous bit transport network. No difference at all. Just smaller and less expensive. The TOSLINK carries an embedded clock signal that is recovered and used on the receiver end. The way this has been done has not lead to sound quality that is independent of the link properties. -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
pablolie;184112 Wrote: Not sure why you would get flamed. Because I am touching on the great subjectivist vs objectivist divide in audiophile land. pablolie;184112 Wrote: I am always very scpetical when people claim something's based on physics. There was a time when they could prove the sun circled the earth with physics. :-) On the other hand, I don't think *everything* needs to be measurable and quantifiable to be valid in an art as esoteric as high end audio, which is somewhat irrational to start with. Well, we differ here. This isn't quantum mechanics. It isn't cosmology, string theory or general relativity. This is not X ray wave guides. We understand electronics at 20-50 KHz. We know alot about audio perception. There are still black art areas, like speaker design and a bit of room acoustics. But it is way less black art than people seem to believe. This topic is measurable. Anyway, I have said my piece on this and I will go back into my hole now. I really do know better... -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
All bit sychronous systems carry clocks that are recovered on the other side unless you deal in seperately distributed clocking. So on average consumer TOSLINK, sure, there is a bit of slip potentially, if you have clock drift, and if you don't attend to that issue in your circuit design. But clock recovery is also well understood and easily incorporated for equipment that cares (and at audiophile prices it sure better care). But clock distribution architecture is not a distinguisher to coax vs. optical. It may be an arguement potentially for not using S/PDIF (coax or optical) without a seperate clocking system. But now we just shifted the discussion to BER and audibility of that, which I was not speaking to. I was addressing the question of whether optical is inferior to coax by default. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Greek Audiophile
Hmmm, here's a question to sort out the men from the boys: Which cost the most: (a) your car (b) your audio (c) the contents of your wardrobe? You only qualify as audiophile if the answer is b. Ceejay. -- ceejay ceejay's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=148 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33125 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
325xi;184113 Wrote: Although I totally agree about Swiss watch thing - that's why I'm interested in getting the best even though I might not hear it in real. Well, I like to buy the best over the line of audibility, but not at the cost of an order of magnitude in price. So a Transporter makes sense to me over an SB3, but you can see i have SB3s too :-) I don't have the top end DAC you might notice. I use coax and toslink interchangably. I do not have run lengths to justify one over the other - it is mostly driven by a) I am used to optical gear professionally so its fun (but more expensive) to have it at home and b) what connections the gear I am connecting need. When using optical I pick a known to me manufacturer of decent optical patch cables. Tight fit and good seating are all that I look for. The network is the connector after all... A short plastic optical connection from a reputable patch cable manufacturer should be more than good enough. Same goes for the coax cable. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
Eric Carroll;184145 Wrote: All bit sychronous systems carry clocks that are recovered on the other side unless you deal in seperately distributed clocking. So on average consumer TOSLINK, sure, there is a bit of slip potentially, if you have clock drift, and if you don't attend to that issue in your circuit design. But clock recovery is also well understood and easily incorporated for equipment that cares (and at audiophile prices it sure better care). But clock distribution architecture is not a distinguisher to coax vs. optical. It may be an arguement potentially for not using S/PDIF (coax or optical) without a seperate clocking system. But now we just shifted the discussion to BER and audibility of that, which I was not speaking to. I was addressing the question of whether optical is inferior to coax by default. There are problems specific to TOSLINK that have nothing to do with BER. Google on TOSLINK jitter or read this for a starter: http://www.stereophile.com/reference/193jitter/index.html -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Greek Audiophile
ceejay;184149 Wrote: Hmmm, here's a question to sort out the men from the boys: Which cost the most: (a) your car (b) your audio (c) the contents of your wardrobe? You only qualify as audiophile if the answer is b. Ceejay. Do you qualify as a man if the answer is c? -- P Floding No, I didn't ABX it. And I won't even if you ask me. (Especially not if you ask me.) P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33125 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
ErikM;184159 Wrote: Gosh I wish I knew all ee buzz words and computer stuff but I don't. I did buy a good glass fibre toslink to compare to my Sterovox coax cable. The coax sounded way better. The toslink sounded grainier and brighter. The coax sounded soother with less glare, less mechanical.. Guess I'll go with the ears. I was hoping the Toslink would sound the same or better, I like all the techical reasons, galvanic, and grounding and stuff.. but it didn't YMMV Well, other than how great our mutual name is I know we can agree on how much we like our Squeezebox (modded or not) and Transporters and how great the resulting music is (I know we can agree or we wouldn't be posting here). So I need to unwind from a stressful day in the SD Audiophile forum and go listen to some exceptionally rendered music. :) Enjoy the music! -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Blown away by Transporter
nicketynick;182758 Wrote: Yeah, but why archive it on plastic should the need ever arise? Just go back to the online source and get it again. 1. I want FLAC lossless on my Transporter. Lossy compression is perceptible (although some of the lossy codec like AAC are getting darn close). Currenlty with a small number of exceptions that means CDs (YAY Linn Records, if we can get the to change from WMA to FLAC). 2. I do not want DRM. CDs are DRM free. True some online downloads are DRM free but see (1). 3. I want control of my backups in my hands. I have owned CDs since they first came out. I will think about leaving my valuable data with an online organization when that organization has existed for a similar amount of time. And I love my transporter. The Transporter has caused me to start buying CDs again. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32969 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDTT new download store
High Definition Tape Transfers Download Center is now open, it features six of our releases in true 24/96 resolution ready for download, all files are compressed with Flac. www.highdeftapetransfers.net Thanks -- HDTT HDTT's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10440 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33156 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDCD ripping
Eric Carroll;184111 Wrote: Phil, Sometimes you seem to ignore my posts, then repost what I said as epiphany found elsewhere- so even though I'm not phil I'll jump in :-) 2. Check out 'this posting' (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=showtopic=30999view=findpostp=475231) on Hydrogen Audio. A poster there appears to show positive results on HDCD decode visible in the waveform. Those are not positive results. I linked to positive results on page two, pointing out that the dynamic range is what changed. I can see without enlarging that the dynamic range is the same in your link. 'Here are positive results' (http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wowhdcd9eg.png) I think I need to try buying another HDCD. Its been suggested that some HDCDs dont use the compression feature in the mastering process. Yeah.. by me. four posts up. There is a link to known hdcd there if you care to revisit. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32967 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDCD ripping
Skunk;184169 Wrote: Sometimes you seem to ignore my posts, then repost what I said as epiphany found elsewhere- so even though I'm not phil I'll jump in :-) . Whoops, sorry about I must have missed your posting. Its only 12 pages of thread... Let me go back and look. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32967 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDCD ripping
Eric Carroll;184171 Wrote: Whoops, sorry about I should apologize too. On second look the file you linked to does appear to have more dynamic range. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32967 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDCD ripping
Skunk;184169 Wrote: I linked to positive results on page two, pointing out that the dynamic range is what changed. I can see without enlarging that the dynamic range is the same in your link. I have been using your posting #12 extensively on this. The first link is the methdology I and Phil were using after sorting out the !#%^! WMP issues. However, the second posting you linked to there was some question in the thread and in my mind if the guy was really comparing the right things. I wasn't ignoring it, I was trying to replicate it... which I have not succeed in yet (neither Phil nor I had). He talks alot about redithering and processing. I just wanted to get to a straight up rip to decode caputure comparison. Actually I didn't miss your post #106 either, but I think I misread it and I got confused, and i did see your HDCD list, thanks. I just don't understand and am very confused by what the point of HDCD is if it doesn't bother to recover more dynamic range. One thing I found out was that unknown to me, I still had the Windows Media Run Time for version 11 installed throughout all this, so just in the last day I was trying to figure out if that was causing some kind of DRM access failure or something. I pulled it out and still get the same waveform - no dynamic range increase. So agree I need to try another HDCD. Hopefully I will see what everyone other than me sees. Can I ask if you have actually replicated this yourself? The link you reposted is just from the originator of the hydrogenaudio thread. Just checking. I do appreciate your guidance and help in this. Its been a bit of a learning experience for me. I have to admit I have way more cool audio tools installed now. Again, thanks. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32967 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Records Studio Masters on Tp SB3
325xi;183326 Wrote: Considering all things said in Resampling thread, I'm just wondering what kind of sample rate conversions used in SB for downsampling? As I recall based on my reading of Sean Adam's postings in the forums (truely its worth reading all his back postings if this stuff interests you), it is drop every other sample. I will try to dig up the reference. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32951 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDCD ripping
Eric Carroll;184175 Wrote: Can I ask if you have actually replicated this yourself? The link you reposted is just from the originator of the hydrogenaudio thread. Just checking. No, I only have windows 2k, which apparently none of this is possible on. Yes that's from http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=221104 . Coincidentally, for the second screenshot in the hydrogen audio thread you linked to, the test disc is 'the lost trident sessions', the same one used in the link above, but different song. What we need is two people to get the same decoded results on a disc, then have them post their OS, audio drivers, WMP version, step instructions, and current moon cycle. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32967 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] An end to A/B/X (DBT) debates? (No, but...)
cliveb;183944 Wrote: AES Preprint 3137 - Towards a Definitive Analysis of Audio System Errors; Chris Dunn Malcolm Hawksford, Sept 1991. This is a very interesting paper, thanks for pointing it out. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33127 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDCD ripping
yikes, of course I meant head-fi. I have been on so many boards lately trying to figure out what I am doing wrong they are all blurring together, lol! And annoyingly it seems the mistake was disk selection, sigh. Ya, we should just pick a disk. Maybe I will see if I can get that disk Olav mentions since he claims a positive result on it. Any other suggestions? We need one with a known positive result in the audio domain... -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32967 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to increase quality of server side music...
Mark's insight into checking the volume adjustment has revealed that the lower VU tracks are adjusted from -8 to -12 dB on the ones I've compared, whereas the higher VU tracks do not list a Volume Adjustment. I had a stint a few years back where I was home-bound after an accident. In that time I transfered a few hundred CD's into AAC. It'd be difficult for me to perform the feat again. Is SS choosing this decrease in volume or is it part of the encoding process? Thanks Mark and Skunk. -- kphinney kphinney's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10409 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33095 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDTT new download store
This is great news! I just read about HDTT on Tone Audio. They did not mention downloadability so this is a perfect chance to try it out. Question to HDTT: Have these recordings been tried out on Slim's devices? Also, I read about a sampler with extracts, but cannot find it on your web site. Can you point us to the right direction? Extracts would really help to evaluate the styles and quality of the music, and I am sure for audience of this forum would entice purchases. -- agentsmith SB2/Pioneer DV-S733A - Benchmark DAC1 - Naim Nait 5i - Naim Ariva Speakers. Storage via Buffalo 250GB LANStation+300GB USB drive, Slimserver in old Thinkpad T30. agentsmith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1838 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33156 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDCD ripping
Eric Carroll;184180 Wrote: And annoyingly it seems the mistake was disk selection, sigh. Ya, we should just pick a disk. Maybe I will see if I can get that disk Olav mentions since he claims a positive result on it. Picking a disc would help. It's funny, I signed up for the reference recordings mailing list yesterday, after reading their name in the HDCD wiki. Apparently Keith O. Johnson [Technical Director, Recording Engineer and partner in Reference Recordings], co-founded the encoding scheme*. I planned to ask him about this topic on the list, and would of course be willing to order the disc in question :-) * http://www.referencerecordings.com/about.asp -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32967 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to increase quality of server side music...
kphinney;184182 Wrote: Mark's insight into checking the volume adjustment has revealed that the lower VU tracks are adjusted from -8 to -12 dB on the ones I've compared, whereas the higher VU tracks do not list a Volume Adjustment. That would be consistent with what you're hearing then. -8 to -12 dB adjustments are typical of many modern CDs. I had a stint a few years back where I was home-bound after an accident. In that time I transfered a few hundred CD's into AAC. It'd be difficult for me to perform the feat again. Note you can just tell SS to stop using this adjustment (see the end of this post). If you want volume adjustment on all of them (or none of them) foobar should be able to do it. Just load all the files, select them all (Edit - Select All or click the first, shift+click the last). Then right-click one - you can calculate new ReplayGain values or clear the existing ones in one stroke. Give it some time to do its work, particularly if you're calculating new RG values. With hundreds/thousands of files, it will take hours, maybe overnight or longer. The good news is you don't have to do anything or re-rip. Is SS choosing this decrease in volume or is it part of the encoding process? Thanks Mark and Skunk. You're welcome. You can tell SS to ignore this by going to Player Settings - Audio (last section) Volume Adjustment / Replay Gain. SS is using it because the tags are there and you will find that Volume Adjustment / Replay Gain has been activated. They were most likely added during encoding, yes. Generally you can specify whether you want these tags or not. It doesn't hurt to keep it enabled, you can choose to use the tags or not. -- Mark Lanctot It's like, you know, a New Age religion, but with better treble response. - Jon Heal Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33095 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDTT new download store
agentsmith;184181 Wrote: Also, I read about a sampler with extracts, but cannot find it on your web site. I downloaded the sampler and it worked fine on my Transporter. The SB3 will downsample it to 48 KHz and should play fine. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Pioneer VSX-49TXi-Mirage OM7+C2+R2 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33156 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] How to increase quality of server side music...
Mark Lanctot;184184 Wrote: You can tell SS to ignore this by going to Player Settings - Audio (last section) Volume Adjustment / Replay Gain. SS is using it because the tags are there and you will find that Volume Adjustment / Replay Gain has been activated. They were most likely added during encoding, yes. Generally you can specify whether you want these tags or not. It doesn't hurt to keep it enabled, you can choose to use the tags or not. Excellent. Disable Volume Adjustment leveled out the files I've been playing with. Perhaps, one day, I will get around to re-encoding all of those CD's. I truly appreciate all of your assistance. Next step for me is to find a great encoder program for OSX. Perhaps another post after I do some searching. Thanks again. -- kphinney kphinney's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10409 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33095 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
Eric Carroll wrote: In summary, the short answer is that in the classical networking wold, even in syncronous bit transport clocking, there is no known mechanism that could cause a properly engineered optical connection to be in any way inferior to a coaxial one. Key phrase: properly engineered R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] External DAC for SB
Pacific valve has a great deal on the DIYEDEN Great March2. I was wondering if anyone has had a chance to audition this or other similar Chinese DACs. it uses the PCM1798 chip and the DAC60, a tube DAC uses the PCM1704 chip. -- mmg_fan mmg_fan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9157 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32740 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Greek Audiophile
i love the look of the westminsters. unfortunately i'll never be able to justify spending all that money on them. Anyone been able to roadtest them?? -- drewe181 http://www.last.fm/user/drewe181/ drewe181's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8129 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33125 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HDTT new download store
Eric Carroll;184185 Wrote: I downloaded the sampler and it worked fine on my Transporter. The SB3 will downsample it to 48 KHz and should play fine. Could you provide the URL for the download? -- agentsmith SB2/Pioneer DV-S733A - Benchmark DAC1 - Naim Nait 5i - Naim Ariva Speakers. Storage via Buffalo 250GB LANStation+300GB USB drive, Slimserver in old Thinkpad T30. agentsmith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1838 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33156 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Optical connection - inferior by default?
Eric Carroll;184150 Wrote: Well, I like to buy the best over the line of audibility, but not at the cost of an order of magnitude in price. So a Transporter makes sense to me over an SB3, but you can see i have SB3s too :-) I don't have the top end DAC you might notice. You definitely confusing me with someone else. :) I didn't say a word about top end. I said best - meaning best option among others, technically. Eric Carroll;184150 Wrote: When using optical I pick a known to me manufacturer of decent optical patch cables. Tight fit and good seating are all that I look for. The network is the connector after all... Can you name it, the brand? Is it available online? Back to business. What you said is based on certain audibility assumptions. Those assumptions are based on some empirical data. Now, I have some reservations about this kind of conclusions. We say jitter less then X ns is inaudible. The question is - inaudible to whom? An average person, or trained to listen kind of person? What kind of equipment and what kind of music (I assume it was music) was used? The listening environment? Such a test performed for audiophile or PSTN phone line gear may give results as different as different the purpose. Further - I forgot almost everything about psychoacoustics I read in the past, but I remember there was something about human's ability to feel - not exactly hear, some phase shifts at frequencies higher then 20kHz, which affect emotional response on music - this explains audiophile sensitivity to nuances that we normally can't explain based on theoretical upper-frequency limit of human hearing of approximately 20 kHz. -- 325xi 325xi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5661 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=33146 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
