[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte etc.
Hi--yes that was 2004 in Cleveland. I didn't have plans or a kit but I would modify existing guitars. I started building them again this year. They actually work quite well. Sterling __ From: Dan Winheld To: Sterling Cc: Franz Mechsner ; Bruno Correia ; lute Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 5:33 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte etc. Sterling- Didn't I see one of your original prototypes for this at Cleveland, back around 2006? The poor man's instant 13 course solution! I remember you had a conversion kit, or plans for such, as well. One can of course buy just about any configuration desired for what one very fine builder calls "a shitload of dollars". I actually once commissioned Ralph Novak to build me a 10 string, fan fret, bent archtop (a la early English viols- John Rose) steel-string guitar, but unfortunately (or fortunately) the deal fell through. Dan On 8/23/2013 11:08 AM, Sterling wrote: > I have developed something I call the Weiss Guitar. It's a guitar with 13 or 14 strings tuned like a baroque lute or even a g archlute. It works quite well. There are a few other people making these multi-string guitars but they cost even more than lutes. > Sterling > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 23, 2013, at 11:36 AM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > >> One more thought/question regarding the Liuto Forte; it seems that there is/has been a trend for more single-strung archthings these days; I tried one once- tension felt pretty tight, and the string spacing rather wide. H!?! >> >> On 8/23/2013 10:29 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: >>> Franz; >>> >>> Very well reasoned & eloquently written response- you have made me quite curious to see & try one of these things out. I have an instrument of my own that fits no historical classification but provides an alternative tone color; a seven string steel-string guitar acquired cheaply on a whim while awaiting the completion of my vihuela. I have it strung/tuned as a "G" tenor lute at aA5; it works best as a fake Orpharion (flexibility of modern steel strings allows tuning to the relative Bandora intervals, more creative fakery!) Of course, it is no closer to a real Orpharion/Bandora than the modern Classical guitar is to the lute, but it does provide that wire string sound- and is far more satisfactory for Renaissance music than the modern Classical guitar with its boomy, opaque bass response and dull lack of clarity (on most guitars) if played without nails. >>> >>> One more wrinkle about polyphonically oriented lutes- My Chambure model vihuela is strung with a doubled 1st course. This has the salutary effect of integrating that course with all the others in tone color; becoming the "soprano" section of the choir instead of the solo prima donna, singing alone above the chorus. But it took time to work out the best tension/diameter/pitch combination- and then, the very hard work (for me) of refining the right hand touch for clean sound without clashing or twanging of the strings- which then benefits good touch on all other courses as well. >>> >>> While done or at least attempted historically at certain times, the doubled 1st seems to have been mostly considered too troublesome (and probably too expensive!) to be worth while over the longest haul. But we do have Caravaggio's paintings showing at least one doubled 1st on a 7 course, and then on up to Dowland's and Robinson's clearly stated preference for this set up; and apparently even into the middle and later 17th century some players persisted with doubled 1st (Mace?) while the majority had already gone over to the single 2nd as well as 1st. Of course, all of this well past the time of the Renaissance ideal of polyphony. >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> On 8/22/2013 11:55 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote: >>>>Dear Bruno, >>>> >>>>I own a guitar made by Mario Gropp and a vihuela by Alexander Batov and >>>>am very happy with both instruments. I also had a Liuto Forte for >>>>several years, which I unfortunately had to sell for financial reasons. >>>>I miss that beautiful instrument a lot. >>>> >>>>First of all, it is a wonderful instrument in its own right, so I >>>>estimated it highly such as I estimate my guitar and my vihuela. There >>>>is no need to compare any of these instruments on the cost of the
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte etc.
Sterling- Didn't I see one of your original prototypes for this at Cleveland, back around 2006? The poor man's instant 13 course solution! I remember you had a conversion kit, or plans for such, as well. One can of course buy just about any configuration desired for what one very fine builder calls "a shitload of dollars". I actually once commissioned Ralph Novak to build me a 10 string, fan fret, bent archtop (a la early English viols- John Rose) steel-string guitar, but unfortunately (or fortunately) the deal fell through. Dan On 8/23/2013 11:08 AM, Sterling wrote: I have developed something I call the Weiss Guitar. It's a guitar with 13 or 14 strings tuned like a baroque lute or even a g archlute. It works quite well. There are a few other people making these multi-string guitars but they cost even more than lutes. Sterling Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2013, at 11:36 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: One more thought/question regarding the Liuto Forte; it seems that there is/has been a trend for more single-strung archthings these days; I tried one once- tension felt pretty tight, and the string spacing rather wide. H!?! On 8/23/2013 10:29 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: Franz; Very well reasoned & eloquently written response- you have made me quite curious to see & try one of these things out. I have an instrument of my own that fits no historical classification but provides an alternative tone color; a seven string steel-string guitar acquired cheaply on a whim while awaiting the completion of my vihuela. I have it strung/tuned as a "G" tenor lute at a=415; it works best as a fake Orpharion (flexibility of modern steel strings allows tuning to the relative Bandora intervals, more creative fakery!) Of course, it is no closer to a real Orpharion/Bandora than the modern Classical guitar is to the lute, but it does provide that wire string sound- and is far more satisfactory for Renaissance music than the modern Classical guitar with its boomy, opaque bass response and dull lack of clarity (on most guitars) if played without nails. One more wrinkle about polyphonically oriented lutes- My Chambure model vihuela is strung with a doubled 1st course. This has the salutary effect of integrating that course with all the others in tone color; becoming the "soprano" section of the choir instead of the solo prima donna, singing alone above the chorus. But it took time to work out the best tension/diameter/pitch combination- and then, the very hard work (for me) of refining the right hand touch for clean sound without clashing or twanging of the strings- which then benefits good touch on all other courses as well. While done or at least attempted historically at certain times, the doubled 1st seems to have been mostly considered too troublesome (and probably too expensive!) to be worth while over the longest haul. But we do have Caravaggio's paintings showing at least one doubled 1st on a 7 course, and then on up to Dowland's and Robinson's clearly stated preference for this set up; and apparently even into the middle and later 17th century some players persisted with doubled 1st (Mace?) while the majority had already gone over to the single 2nd as well as 1st. Of course, all of this well past the time of the Renaissance ideal of polyphony. Dan On 8/22/2013 11:55 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote: Dear Bruno, I own a guitar made by Mario Gropp and a vihuela by Alexander Batov and am very happy with both instruments. I also had a Liuto Forte for several years, which I unfortunately had to sell for financial reasons. I miss that beautiful instrument a lot. First of all, it is a wonderful instrument in its own right, so I estimated it highly such as I estimate my guitar and my vihuela. There is no need to compare any of these instruments on the cost of the others - every of these has something the others have not and the other way around, which is trivial of course but has to be told to purists of any sort. Recently I've had the privilege to host Andre Burguete who invented the instrument. It was pure joy to hear him fill the house with his beautiful and tasteful playing, still a wonderful memory. He plays with nails but recently developed a playing technique somewhat different from Segovia style to serve the possibilities of the Liuto Forte best. So most importantlyl, the instruments of the Liuto Forte family are beautifully crafted and sound beautiful. In that respect they can only be praised highly. Really highly, to my humble judgment. If you have to classify the sound of a Liuto Forte on a scale between early music lute (or vihuela, if you like) on one end and the guitar on the other end, it would certainly be closer to the guitar than to the early music lute or vihuela, while you can shift the position closer to early music instruments when you play the Liuto Forte without nails.
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte etc.
Again, the practicality is understood. What I should also mention is that it influences the concert choice of music: "I have an 8c. To make best use of it I will play a concert that spans a 100 years. ...because I can." vs "I have a 6c. I will play a concert that might have happened out of the Diversi Autori lutebook. ...because I can." We are often influenced by our instruments more than the music or the history. or (or add the following statement to the above concert choice) "I have an 8c and it would be pointless to add an 8ve'd 4th course for all the music I play so I will play the pre-1560 dances w/ out." (valid, no?) Followed by: "There are things about that 4th course that I don't need to know and the audience needn't learn about them either." It took me a long time to appreciate that 4th course and to get past that bothersome jangle but tho it took years I'm appreciative that I stuck to it. Are players doing themselves and their audience a disservice by being quickly dismissive of earlier instruments in the pursuit of pan-appropriate lutes? There are 6c techniques that I'd never try on a 7- or 8c. Or metal- wound basses. What I'm trying to say is that by choosing a "pan-lute" one loses out on the opportunity that a correct/niche lute offers, whether learning or performing. Yes, I suppose thems are the breaks. You pays your money; you takes your chances. Btw, I wonder if the re-entrant tuning in the baroque guitar was an attempt to recreate or keep that earlier jangle and to keep that full treble sound that was being lost to the 10-c, baroque lutes and giraffes. It seems to be a popular sound from 1500 - 1700 or so. Re- entrants, whether basses or octaves, seem to bother the hell out of the strict polyphonists but it can't be beat for a great strum and dance. s On Aug 23, 2013, at 12:58 PM, howard posner wrote: Mostly, it's just a question of practicality. There are only so many instruments you can afford to own and keep strung, only so many you can bring to a concert and keep in tune and find a place to stash around the stage when you're not playing them, only so many you can fly with, and only so many you can drive around town with unless you have a full-size van. You can't play Piccinini on a six-course, but you can play Francesco on an archlute. Francesco did not have this problem. On Aug 23, 2013, at 11:18 AM, Sean Smith wrote: It's an interesting trend and I don't know what to make of it, Dan. A few years ago I went to a concert of a well-known poster on this list and the Francesco pieces were played on an 8-c lute and the Dowland on a single strung archlute. It could easily be argued this was standard practice that a period player living a few years post- composer-mortem would have played their pieces thusly. (I do notice, however, the FdM pieces in British sources only appearing in predominently 6-c mss tho the Cavalcanti bucks the trend) But now I see so many single strung arch lutes replacing the double and now this Liuto Forte/arch guitar(?) that I continue to marvel. Why are we seeing so many future instruments playing past compositions? Do they really sound better? (in a sense, they sound great though I miss that 4th octave!) Are those instruments more convenient since the 'future' instrument can play more repertories? I remember years ago at LSA seminars 10-c lutes were so popular because you play Dalza to Dowland and I heard great players playing Sermisy, frottole and Pivas. Yes they sounded great but when they were played on 6-c's there was such a greater dimension to the sound. And in playing the smaller lutes more idiosychrosies came to light. (thumb around the neck, sympathetically ringing bass notes, right arm position, etc) In my case, I have tried to limit my instruments to 6-courses and this week I'm lucky enough to have a wonderful gig on Sunday w/ some period dancers. For the Arbeau and branles all is well. But the request has been made to explore Caroso and Negri in the future. I've only started to compare Il Ballerino (1581) and the Nobilita (1600). And I'm seeing my "limitation" very nicely in the F chords: the earlier books will unabashedly have an inversion to use as low a bass course as necessary (as in Capirola). If I were to find a 7-c for the later book should I faithfully preserve the idiosynchrosies when playing from the earlier? Ok, that's splitting hairs but there is a larger trend of future instruments on past pieces and it does raise questions --and ocassionally hackles. Oh, and here's my latest conundrum re: the Iodone concerti. What is the HIP lute for that? I suspect most of our period ren. and baroque players would not be equipped for it. The Liuto Forte certainly wouldn't be period, either, but may sound nice! Sean On Aug 23, 2013, at 10:36 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: One more thought/question regarding
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte etc.
Mostly, it's just a question of practicality. There are only so many instruments you can afford to own and keep strung, only so many you can bring to a concert and keep in tune and find a place to stash around the stage when you're not playing them, only so many you can fly with, and only so many you can drive around town with unless you have a full-size van. You can't play Piccinini on a six-course, but you can play Francesco on an archlute. Francesco did not have this problem. On Aug 23, 2013, at 11:18 AM, Sean Smith wrote: > > It's an interesting trend and I don't know what to make of it, Dan. > > A few years ago I went to a concert of a well-known poster on this list and > the Francesco pieces were played on an 8-c lute and the Dowland on a single > strung archlute. It could easily be argued this was standard practice that a > period player living a few years post-composer-mortem would have played their > pieces thusly. (I do notice, however, the FdM pieces in British sources only > appearing in predominently 6-c mss tho the Cavalcanti bucks the trend) But > now I see so many single strung arch lutes replacing the double and now this > Liuto Forte/arch guitar(?) that I continue to marvel. > > Why are we seeing so many future instruments playing past compositions? Do > they really sound better? (in a sense, they sound great though I miss that > 4th octave!) Are those instruments more convenient since the 'future' > instrument can play more repertories? I remember years ago at LSA seminars > 10-c lutes were so popular because you play Dalza to Dowland and I heard > great players playing Sermisy, frottole and Pivas. Yes they sounded great but > when they were played on 6-c's there was such a greater dimension to the > sound. And in playing the smaller lutes more idiosychrosies came to light. > (thumb around the neck, sympathetically ringing bass notes, right arm > position, etc) > > In my case, I have tried to limit my instruments to 6-courses and this week > I'm lucky enough to have a wonderful gig on Sunday w/ some period dancers. > For the Arbeau and branles all is well. But the request has been made to > explore Caroso and Negri in the future. I've only started to compare Il > Ballerino (1581) and the Nobilita (1600). And I'm seeing my "limitation" very > nicely in the F chords: the earlier books will unabashedly have an inversion > to use as low a bass course as necessary (as in Capirola). If I were to find > a 7-c for the later book should I faithfully preserve the idiosynchrosies > when playing from the earlier? > > Ok, that's splitting hairs but there is a larger trend of future instruments > on past pieces and it does raise questions --and ocassionally hackles. > > Oh, and here's my latest conundrum re: the Iodone concerti. What is the HIP > lute for that? I suspect most of our period ren. and baroque players would > not be equipped for it. The Liuto Forte certainly wouldn't be period, either, > but may sound nice! > > Sean > > > On Aug 23, 2013, at 10:36 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: > > One more thought/question regarding the Liuto Forte; it seems that there > is/has been a trend for more single-strung archthings these days; I tried one > once- tension felt pretty tight, and the string spacing rather wide. H!?! > > On 8/23/2013 10:29 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: >> Franz; >> >> Very well reasoned & eloquently written response- you have made me quite >> curious to see & try one of these things out. I have an instrument of my >> own that fits no historical classification but provides an alternative tone >> color; a seven string steel-string guitar acquired cheaply on a whim while >> awaiting the completion of my vihuela. I have it strung/tuned as a "G" tenor >> lute at a=415; it works best as a fake Orpharion (flexibility of modern >> steel strings allows tuning to the relative Bandora intervals, more creative >> fakery!) Of course, it is no closer to a real Orpharion/Bandora than the >> modern Classical guitar is to the lute, but it does provide that wire string >> sound- and is far more satisfactory for Renaissance music than the modern >> Classical guitar with its boomy, opaque bass response and dull lack of >> clarity (on most guitars) if played without nails. >> >> One more wrinkle about polyphonically oriented lutes- My Chambure model >> vihuela is strung with a doubled 1st course. This has the salutary effect of >> integrating that course with all the others in tone color; becoming the >> "soprano" section of the choir instead of the solo prima donna, singing >> alone above the chorus. But it took time to work out the best >> tension/diameter/pitch combination- and then, the very hard work (for me) of >> refining the right hand touch for clean sound without clashing or twanging >> of the strings- which then benefits good touch on all other courses as well. >> >> While done or at least attempted historically at certain time
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I understand that, Bill: It's hard to keep a stable of correct instruments for any given time and it's also up to the player to choose his sound and presentation. Furthermore, who am I to judge? But there is this underlying drumbeat of "future instrument creep" that I find confusing. It's rare to see an earlier instrument used anachronistically but becoming quite standard to use a later one or even create and use new modern hybrids. Granted that's what every lutenist from Poulton to Bream did and I don't want to debate their musicality or choice, especially our sacred pioneers. It seems there will always be the modern element that we can't or won't eleminate -- even given the choice. I suppose that to re-enact today's concerts, future audiences will need to hold up some sort of early 21th century smartphones to make the ambience complete. "Oh, a group of 10 with antique iPhones? Let's put you all in the first two rows!" Sean On Aug 23, 2013, at 12:10 PM, William Samson wrote: I suspect that most of us play on instruments that are 'fake' in one way or another - be it the strings, or the use of single strings when evidence suggest that double stringing was more common at the time. Then again the techniques we use are often at odds with the evidence. This is often done deliberately to provide an instrument that produces the kind of sound the musician wants, or to make it easier to tune or play with an already established technique. Bream became the world's most best-known lutenist on a lute that was certainly quite different from surviving instruments - probably because it suited the technique he had developed over many years as a guitarist. I think each of us will follow the path that suits us best, even though the resulting population of instruments and techniques is not necessarily typical of the ones that were used back in the day. Let (s)he who is without sin . . . etc Bill From: Franz Mechsner To: Bruno Correia Cc: lute Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013, 7:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Dear Bruno, I own a guitar made by Mario Gropp and a vihuela by Alexander Batov and am very happy with both instruments. I also had a Liuto Forte for several years, which I unfortunately had to sell for financial reasons. I miss that beautiful instrument a lot. First of all, it is a wonderful instrument in its own right, so I estimated it highly such as I estimate my guitar and my vihuela. There is no need to compare any of these instruments on the cost of the others - every of these has something the others have not and the other way around, which is trivial of course but has to be told to purists of any sort. Recently I've had the privilege to host Andre Burguete who invented the instrument. It was pure joy to hear him fill the house with his beautiful and tasteful playing, still a wonderful memory. He plays with nails but recently developed a playing technique somewhat different from Segovia style to serve the possibilities of the Liuto Forte best. So most importantlyl, the instruments of the Liuto Forte family are beautifully crafted and sound beautiful. In that respect they can only be praised highly. Really highly, to my humble judgment. If you have to classify the sound of a Liuto Forte on a scale between early music lute (or vihuela, if you like) on one end and the guitar on the other end, it would certainly be closer to the guitar than to the early music lute or vihuela, while you can shift the position closer to early music instruments when you play the Liuto Forte without nails. But to leave it with that one-dimensional judgment of sound characteristics would not really do justice to the instrument. It has to be said that the Liuto Forte has an astonishing range and variability of sound characteristics which can neither be covered by a modern guitar nor by a lute. When played with nails, the strings feel somewhat softer than guitar strings and can be played with less force. This is no wonder as string tension is lower than on a guitar. Overall, to my impression a Liuto Forte sounds more transparent, which serves polyphony. This is particularly so in the bass range where a guitar often (or probably usually) sounds somewhat "thick" and "too strong" while a Liuto Forte has more clarity here as well as a better balance between bass and treble in my judgment. Not to forget the possibilities that open up with the enlarged bass range and the variability made possible by the family of instruments. One may well say, the lute family is all one needs and be happy with this. I have nothing to say against
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I suspect that most of us play on instruments that are 'fake' in one way or another - be it the strings, or the use of single strings when evidence suggest that double stringing was more common at the time. Then again the techniques we use are often at odds with the evidence. This is often done deliberately to provide an instrument that produces the kind of sound the musician wants, or to make it easier to tune or play with an already established technique. Bream became the world's most best-known lutenist on a lute that was certainly quite different from surviving instruments - probably because it suited the technique he had developed over many years as a guitarist. I think each of us will follow the path that suits us best, even though the resulting population of instruments and techniques is not necessarily typical of the ones that were used back in the day. Let (s)he who is without sin . . . etc Bill From: Franz Mechsner To: Bruno Correia Cc: lute Sent: Friday, 23 August 2013, 7:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Dear Bruno, I own a guitar made by Mario Gropp and a vihuela by Alexander Batov and am very happy with both instruments. I also had a Liuto Forte for several years, which I unfortunately had to sell for financial reasons. I miss that beautiful instrument a lot. First of all, it is a wonderful instrument in its own right, so I estimated it highly such as I estimate my guitar and my vihuela. There is no need to compare any of these instruments on the cost of the others - every of these has something the others have not and the other way around, which is trivial of course but has to be told to purists of any sort. Recently I've had the privilege to host Andre Burguete who invented the instrument. It was pure joy to hear him fill the house with his beautiful and tasteful playing, still a wonderful memory. He plays with nails but recently developed a playing technique somewhat different from Segovia style to serve the possibilities of the Liuto Forte best. So most importantlyl, the instruments of the Liuto Forte family are beautifully crafted and sound beautiful. In that respect they can only be praised highly. Really highly, to my humble judgment. If you have to classify the sound of a Liuto Forte on a scale between early music lute (or vihuela, if you like) on one end and the guitar on the other end, it would certainly be closer to the guitar than to the early music lute or vihuela, while you can shift the position closer to early music instruments when you play the Liuto Forte without nails. But to leave it with that one-dimensional judgment of sound characteristics would not really do justice to the instrument. It has to be said that the Liuto Forte has an astonishing range and variability of sound characteristics which can neither be covered by a modern guitar nor by a lute. When played with nails, the strings feel somewhat softer than guitar strings and can be played with less force. This is no wonder as string tension is lower than on a guitar. Overall, to my impression a Liuto Forte sounds more transparent, which serves polyphony. This is particularly so in the bass range where a guitar often (or probably usually) sounds somewhat "thick" and "too strong" while a Liuto Forte has more clarity here as well as a better balance between bass and treble in my judgment. Not to forget the possibilities that open up with the enlarged bass range and the variability made possible by the family of instruments. One may well say, the lute family is all one needs and be happy with this. I have nothing to say against such a stance except that this is only spoken from a certain taste and viewpoint which is open to discussion to say the least. I myself do much welcome a new family of instruments which mirrors the world of lutes in a way the violin family mirrors the viol family. I feel quite strange seeing them dismissed in a sentence, called them "fake lutes" etc. Couldn't one call, with equal right, a modern violin a "fake viol", or a modern guitar a "fake guitar" as it is not a Renaissance or Baroque guitar, or a Bach concert played by a modern orchestra a "fake concert". There are certainly people who do so... I see no reason why I shouldn't love all of these instruments and ways of playing music (if well done of course...). As said, there's nothing to say against different tastes and viewpoints here, but much to say against dogmatic and dismissing viewpoints. (By the way, the Liuto Forte team was, awarded the European Innova
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte etc.
Dear Ones, When speaking of polyphony on a steel string guitar, please see this link: http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/berget-sienasteel/ A duet partner of mine, Paul Berget, recorded this years ago. He recorded selections of the Siena in 2 recordings, one on lute, one on steel string guitar. You can freely listen to the entire CD. Authentic instrument? No, but very musical and I for one enjoy it very much. ed, heading to Utrecht on Tuesday! At 12:29 PM 8/23/2013, Dan Winheld wrote: >Franz; > >Very well reasoned & eloquently written response- you have made me >quite curious to see & try one of these things out. I have >an instrument of my own that fits no historical classification but >provides an alternative tone color; a seven string steel-string >guitar acquired cheaply on a whim while awaiting the completion of >my vihuela. I have it strung/tuned as a "G" tenor lute at a=415; it >works best as a fake Orpharion (flexibility of modern steel strings >allows tuning to the relative Bandora intervals, more creative >fakery!) Of course, it is no closer to a real Orpharion/Bandora than >the modern Classical guitar is to the lute, but it does provide that >wire string sound- and is far more satisfactory for Renaissance >music than the modern Classical guitar with its boomy, opaque bass >response and dull lack of clarity (on most guitars) if played without nails. > >One more wrinkle about polyphonically oriented lutes- My Chambure >model vihuela is strung with a doubled 1st course. This has the >salutary effect of integrating that course with all the others in >tone color; becoming the "soprano" section of the choir instead of >the solo prima donna, singing alone above the chorus. But it took >time to work out the best tension/diameter/pitch combination- and >then, the very hard work (for me) of refining the right hand touch >for clean sound without clashing or twanging of the strings- which >then benefits good touch on all other courses as well. > > While done or at least attempted historically at certain times, > the doubled 1st seems to have been mostly considered too > troublesome (and probably too expensive!) to be worth while over > the longest haul. But we do have Caravaggio's paintings showing at > least one doubled 1st on a 7 course, and then on up to Dowland's > and Robinson's clearly stated preference for this set up; and > apparently even into the middle and later 17th century some players > persisted with doubled 1st (Mace?) while the majority had already > gone over to the single 2nd as well as 1st. Of course, all of this > well past the time of the Renaissance ideal of polyphony. > >Dan > >On 8/22/2013 11:55 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote: >> Dear Bruno, >> >> I own a guitar made by Mario Gropp and a vihuela by Alexander Batov and >> am very happy with both instruments. I also had a Liuto Forte for >> several years, which I unfortunately had to sell for financial reasons. >> I miss that beautiful instrument a lot. >> >> First of all, it is a wonderful instrument in its own right, so I >> estimated it highly such as I estimate my guitar and my vihuela. There >> is no need to compare any of these instruments on the cost of the >> others - every of these has something the others have not and the other >> way around, which is trivial of course but has to be told to purists of >> any sort. Recently I've had the privilege to host Andre Burguete who >> invented the instrument. It was pure joy to hear him fill the house >> with his beautiful and tasteful playing, still a wonderful memory. He >> plays with nails but recently developed a playing technique somewhat >> different from Segovia style to serve the possibilities of the Liuto >> Forte best. >> >> So most importantlyl, the instruments of the Liuto Forte family are >> beautifully crafted and sound beautiful. In that respect they can only >> be praised highly. Really highly, to my humble judgment. >> >> If you have to classify the sound of a Liuto Forte on a scale between >> early music lute (or vihuela, if you like) on one end and the guitar on >> the other end, it would certainly be closer to the guitar than to the >> early music lute or vihuela, while you can shift the position closer to >> early music instruments when you play the Liuto Forte without nails. >> But to leave it with that one-dimensional judgment of sound >> characteristics would not really do justice to the instrument. >> >> It has to be said that the Liuto Forte has an astonishing range and >> variability of sound characteristics which can neither be covered by a >> modern guitar nor by a lute. When played with nails, the strings feel >> somewhat softer than guitar strings and can be played with less force. >> This is no wonder as string tension is lower than on a guitar. Overall, >> to my impression a Liuto Forte
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte etc.
It's an interesting trend and I don't know what to make of it, Dan. A few years ago I went to a concert of a well-known poster on this list and the Francesco pieces were played on an 8-c lute and the Dowland on a single strung archlute. It could easily be argued this was standard practice that a period player living a few years post- composer-mortem would have played their pieces thusly. (I do notice, however, the FdM pieces in British sources only appearing in predominently 6-c mss tho the Cavalcanti bucks the trend) But now I see so many single strung arch lutes replacing the double and now this Liuto Forte/arch guitar(?) that I continue to marvel. Why are we seeing so many future instruments playing past compositions? Do they really sound better? (in a sense, they sound great though I miss that 4th octave!) Are those instruments more convenient since the 'future' instrument can play more repertories? I remember years ago at LSA seminars 10-c lutes were so popular because you play Dalza to Dowland and I heard great players playing Sermisy, frottole and Pivas. Yes they sounded great but when they were played on 6-c's there was such a greater dimension to the sound. And in playing the smaller lutes more idiosychrosies came to light. (thumb around the neck, sympathetically ringing bass notes, right arm position, etc) In my case, I have tried to limit my instruments to 6-courses and this week I'm lucky enough to have a wonderful gig on Sunday w/ some period dancers. For the Arbeau and branles all is well. But the request has been made to explore Caroso and Negri in the future. I've only started to compare Il Ballerino (1581) and the Nobilita (1600). And I'm seeing my "limitation" very nicely in the F chords: the earlier books will unabashedly have an inversion to use as low a bass course as necessary (as in Capirola). If I were to find a 7-c for the later book should I faithfully preserve the idiosynchrosies when playing from the earlier? Ok, that's splitting hairs but there is a larger trend of future instruments on past pieces and it does raise questions --and ocassionally hackles. Oh, and here's my latest conundrum re: the Iodone concerti. What is the HIP lute for that? I suspect most of our period ren. and baroque players would not be equipped for it. The Liuto Forte certainly wouldn't be period, either, but may sound nice! Sean On Aug 23, 2013, at 10:36 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: One more thought/question regarding the Liuto Forte; it seems that there is/has been a trend for more single-strung archthings these days; I tried one once- tension felt pretty tight, and the string spacing rather wide. H!?! On 8/23/2013 10:29 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: Franz; Very well reasoned & eloquently written response- you have made me quite curious to see & try one of these things out. I have an instrument of my own that fits no historical classification but provides an alternative tone color; a seven string steel-string guitar acquired cheaply on a whim while awaiting the completion of my vihuela. I have it strung/tuned as a "G" tenor lute at a=415; it works best as a fake Orpharion (flexibility of modern steel strings allows tuning to the relative Bandora intervals, more creative fakery!) Of course, it is no closer to a real Orpharion/Bandora than the modern Classical guitar is to the lute, but it does provide that wire string sound- and is far more satisfactory for Renaissance music than the modern Classical guitar with its boomy, opaque bass response and dull lack of clarity (on most guitars) if played without nails. One more wrinkle about polyphonically oriented lutes- My Chambure model vihuela is strung with a doubled 1st course. This has the salutary effect of integrating that course with all the others in tone color; becoming the "soprano" section of the choir instead of the solo prima donna, singing alone above the chorus. But it took time to work out the best tension/diameter/pitch combination- and then, the very hard work (for me) of refining the right hand touch for clean sound without clashing or twanging of the strings- which then benefits good touch on all other courses as well. While done or at least attempted historically at certain times, the doubled 1st seems to have been mostly considered too troublesome (and probably too expensive!) to be worth while over the longest haul. But we do have Caravaggio's paintings showing at least one doubled 1st on a 7 course, and then on up to Dowland's and Robinson's clearly stated preference for this set up; and apparently even into the middle and later 17th century some players persisted with doubled 1st (Mace?) while the majority had already gone over to the single 2nd as well as 1st. Of course, all of this well past the time of the Renaissance ideal of polyphony. Dan On 8/22/2013 11:55 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote:
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte etc.
I have developed something I call the Weiss Guitar. It's a guitar with 13 or 14 strings tuned like a baroque lute or even a g archlute. It works quite well. There are a few other people making these multi-string guitars but they cost even more than lutes. Sterling Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2013, at 11:36 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: > One more thought/question regarding the Liuto Forte; it seems that there > is/has been a trend for more single-strung archthings these days; I tried one > once- tension felt pretty tight, and the string spacing rather wide. H!?! > > On 8/23/2013 10:29 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: >> Franz; >> >> Very well reasoned & eloquently written response- you have made me quite >> curious to see & try one of these things out. I have an instrument of my >> own that fits no historical classification but provides an alternative tone >> color; a seven string steel-string guitar acquired cheaply on a whim while >> awaiting the completion of my vihuela. I have it strung/tuned as a "G" tenor >> lute at a=415; it works best as a fake Orpharion (flexibility of modern >> steel strings allows tuning to the relative Bandora intervals, more creative >> fakery!) Of course, it is no closer to a real Orpharion/Bandora than the >> modern Classical guitar is to the lute, but it does provide that wire string >> sound- and is far more satisfactory for Renaissance music than the modern >> Classical guitar with its boomy, opaque bass response and dull lack of >> clarity (on most guitars) if played without nails. >> >> One more wrinkle about polyphonically oriented lutes- My Chambure model >> vihuela is strung with a doubled 1st course. This has the salutary effect of >> integrating that course with all the others in tone color; becoming the >> "soprano" section of the choir instead of the solo prima donna, singing >> alone above the chorus. But it took time to work out the best >> tension/diameter/pitch combination- and then, the very hard work (for me) of >> refining the right hand touch for clean sound without clashing or twanging >> of the strings- which then benefits good touch on all other courses as well. >> >> While done or at least attempted historically at certain times, the doubled >> 1st seems to have been mostly considered too troublesome (and probably too >> expensive!) to be worth while over the longest haul. But we do have >> Caravaggio's paintings showing at least one doubled 1st on a 7 course, and >> then on up to Dowland's and Robinson's clearly stated preference for this >> set up; and apparently even into the middle and later 17th century some >> players persisted with doubled 1st (Mace?) while the majority had already >> gone over to the single 2nd as well as 1st. Of course, all of this well past >> the time of the Renaissance ideal of polyphony. >> >> Dan >> >> On 8/22/2013 11:55 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote: >>>Dear Bruno, >>> >>>I own a guitar made by Mario Gropp and a vihuela by Alexander Batov and >>>am very happy with both instruments. I also had a Liuto Forte for >>>several years, which I unfortunately had to sell for financial reasons. >>>I miss that beautiful instrument a lot. >>> >>>First of all, it is a wonderful instrument in its own right, so I >>>estimated it highly such as I estimate my guitar and my vihuela. There >>>is no need to compare any of these instruments on the cost of the >>>others - every of these has something the others have not and the other >>>way around, which is trivial of course but has to be told to purists of >>>any sort. Recently I've had the privilege to host Andre Burguete who >>>invented the instrument. It was pure joy to hear him fill the house >>>with his beautiful and tasteful playing, still a wonderful memory. He >>>plays with nails but recently developed a playing technique somewhat >>>different from Segovia style to serve the possibilities of the Liuto >>>Forte best. >>> >>>So most importantlyl, the instruments of the Liuto Forte family are >>>beautifully crafted and sound beautiful. In that respect they can only >>>be praised highly. Really highly, to my humble judgment. >>> >>>If you have to classify the sound of a Liuto Forte on a scale between >>>early music lute (or vihuela, if you like) on one end and the guitar on >>>the other end, it would certainly be closer to the guitar than to the >>>early music lute or vihuela, while you can shift the position closer to >>>early music instruments when you play the Liuto Forte without nails. >>>But to leave it with that one-dimensional judgment of sound >>>characteristics would not really do justice to the instrument. >>> >>>It has to be said that the Liuto Forte has an astonishing range and >>>variability of sound characteristics which can neither be covered by a >>>modern guitar nor by a lute. When played with nails, the strings feel >>>s
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte etc.
One more thought/question regarding the Liuto Forte; it seems that there is/has been a trend for more single-strung archthings these days; I tried one once- tension felt pretty tight, and the string spacing rather wide. H!?! On 8/23/2013 10:29 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: Franz; Very well reasoned & eloquently written response- you have made me quite curious to see & try one of these things out. I have an instrument of my own that fits no historical classification but provides an alternative tone color; a seven string steel-string guitar acquired cheaply on a whim while awaiting the completion of my vihuela. I have it strung/tuned as a "G" tenor lute at a=415; it works best as a fake Orpharion (flexibility of modern steel strings allows tuning to the relative Bandora intervals, more creative fakery!) Of course, it is no closer to a real Orpharion/Bandora than the modern Classical guitar is to the lute, but it does provide that wire string sound- and is far more satisfactory for Renaissance music than the modern Classical guitar with its boomy, opaque bass response and dull lack of clarity (on most guitars) if played without nails. One more wrinkle about polyphonically oriented lutes- My Chambure model vihuela is strung with a doubled 1st course. This has the salutary effect of integrating that course with all the others in tone color; becoming the "soprano" section of the choir instead of the solo prima donna, singing alone above the chorus. But it took time to work out the best tension/diameter/pitch combination- and then, the very hard work (for me) of refining the right hand touch for clean sound without clashing or twanging of the strings- which then benefits good touch on all other courses as well. While done or at least attempted historically at certain times, the doubled 1st seems to have been mostly considered too troublesome (and probably too expensive!) to be worth while over the longest haul. But we do have Caravaggio's paintings showing at least one doubled 1st on a 7 course, and then on up to Dowland's and Robinson's clearly stated preference for this set up; and apparently even into the middle and later 17th century some players persisted with doubled 1st (Mace?) while the majority had already gone over to the single 2nd as well as 1st. Of course, all of this well past the time of the Renaissance ideal of polyphony. Dan On 8/22/2013 11:55 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote: Dear Bruno, I own a guitar made by Mario Gropp and a vihuela by Alexander Batov and am very happy with both instruments. I also had a Liuto Forte for several years, which I unfortunately had to sell for financial reasons. I miss that beautiful instrument a lot. First of all, it is a wonderful instrument in its own right, so I estimated it highly such as I estimate my guitar and my vihuela. There is no need to compare any of these instruments on the cost of the others - every of these has something the others have not and the other way around, which is trivial of course but has to be told to purists of any sort. Recently I've had the privilege to host Andre Burguete who invented the instrument. It was pure joy to hear him fill the house with his beautiful and tasteful playing, still a wonderful memory. He plays with nails but recently developed a playing technique somewhat different from Segovia style to serve the possibilities of the Liuto Forte best. So most importantlyl, the instruments of the Liuto Forte family are beautifully crafted and sound beautiful. In that respect they can only be praised highly. Really highly, to my humble judgment. If you have to classify the sound of a Liuto Forte on a scale between early music lute (or vihuela, if you like) on one end and the guitar on the other end, it would certainly be closer to the guitar than to the early music lute or vihuela, while you can shift the position closer to early music instruments when you play the Liuto Forte without nails. But to leave it with that one-dimensional judgment of sound characteristics would not really do justice to the instrument. It has to be said that the Liuto Forte has an astonishing range and variability of sound characteristics which can neither be covered by a modern guitar nor by a lute. When played with nails, the strings feel somewhat softer than guitar strings and can be played with less force. This is no wonder as string tension is lower than on a guitar. Overall, to my impression a Liuto Forte sounds more transparent, which serves polyphony. This is particularly so in the bass range where a guitar often (or probably usually) sounds somewhat "thick" and "too strong" while a Liuto Forte has more clarity here as well as a better balance between bass and treble in my judgment. Not to forget the possibilities that open up with
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte etc.
Franz; Very well reasoned & eloquently written response- you have made me quite curious to see & try one of these things out. I have an instrument of my own that fits no historical classification but provides an alternative tone color; a seven string steel-string guitar acquired cheaply on a whim while awaiting the completion of my vihuela. I have it strung/tuned as a "G" tenor lute at a=415; it works best as a fake Orpharion (flexibility of modern steel strings allows tuning to the relative Bandora intervals, more creative fakery!) Of course, it is no closer to a real Orpharion/Bandora than the modern Classical guitar is to the lute, but it does provide that wire string sound- and is far more satisfactory for Renaissance music than the modern Classical guitar with its boomy, opaque bass response and dull lack of clarity (on most guitars) if played without nails. One more wrinkle about polyphonically oriented lutes- My Chambure model vihuela is strung with a doubled 1st course. This has the salutary effect of integrating that course with all the others in tone color; becoming the "soprano" section of the choir instead of the solo prima donna, singing alone above the chorus. But it took time to work out the best tension/diameter/pitch combination- and then, the very hard work (for me) of refining the right hand touch for clean sound without clashing or twanging of the strings- which then benefits good touch on all other courses as well. While done or at least attempted historically at certain times, the doubled 1st seems to have been mostly considered too troublesome (and probably too expensive!) to be worth while over the longest haul. But we do have Caravaggio's paintings showing at least one doubled 1st on a 7 course, and then on up to Dowland's and Robinson's clearly stated preference for this set up; and apparently even into the middle and later 17th century some players persisted with doubled 1st (Mace?) while the majority had already gone over to the single 2nd as well as 1st. Of course, all of this well past the time of the Renaissance ideal of polyphony. Dan On 8/22/2013 11:55 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote: Dear Bruno, I own a guitar made by Mario Gropp and a vihuela by Alexander Batov and am very happy with both instruments. I also had a Liuto Forte for several years, which I unfortunately had to sell for financial reasons. I miss that beautiful instrument a lot. First of all, it is a wonderful instrument in its own right, so I estimated it highly such as I estimate my guitar and my vihuela. There is no need to compare any of these instruments on the cost of the others - every of these has something the others have not and the other way around, which is trivial of course but has to be told to purists of any sort. Recently I've had the privilege to host Andre Burguete who invented the instrument. It was pure joy to hear him fill the house with his beautiful and tasteful playing, still a wonderful memory. He plays with nails but recently developed a playing technique somewhat different from Segovia style to serve the possibilities of the Liuto Forte best. So most importantlyl, the instruments of the Liuto Forte family are beautifully crafted and sound beautiful. In that respect they can only be praised highly. Really highly, to my humble judgment. If you have to classify the sound of a Liuto Forte on a scale between early music lute (or vihuela, if you like) on one end and the guitar on the other end, it would certainly be closer to the guitar than to the early music lute or vihuela, while you can shift the position closer to early music instruments when you play the Liuto Forte without nails. But to leave it with that one-dimensional judgment of sound characteristics would not really do justice to the instrument. It has to be said that the Liuto Forte has an astonishing range and variability of sound characteristics which can neither be covered by a modern guitar nor by a lute. When played with nails, the strings feel somewhat softer than guitar strings and can be played with less force. This is no wonder as string tension is lower than on a guitar. Overall, to my impression a Liuto Forte sounds more transparent, which serves polyphony. This is particularly so in the bass range where a guitar often (or probably usually) sounds somewhat "thick" and "too strong" while a Liuto Forte has more clarity here as well as a better balance between bass and treble in my judgment. Not to forget the possibilities that open up with the enlarged bass range and the variability made possible by the family of instruments. One may well say, the lute family is all one needs and be happy with this. I have nothing to say against such a stance except that this is only spoken from a certain taste and viewpoint which is o
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Please forgive the unfogivable grammar chaos in some of my sentences in my earlier mail - I really should always check spelling and grammer before sending... F --- Dr. Franz Mechsner Zum Kirschberg 40 D-14806 Belzig OT Borne franz.mechs...@gmx.de +49(0)33841-441362 Gesendet: Freitag, 23. August 2013 um 08:55 Uhr Von: "Franz Mechsner" An: "Bruno Correia" Cc: lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Dear Bruno, I own a guitar made by Mario Gropp and a vihuela by Alexander Batov and am very happy with both instruments. I also had a Liuto Forte for several years, which I unfortunately had to sell for financial reasons. I miss that beautiful instrument a lot. First of all, it is a wonderful instrument in its own right, so I estimated it highly such as I estimate my guitar and my vihuela. There is no need to compare any of these instruments on the cost of the others - every of these has something the others have not and the other way around, which is trivial of course but has to be told to purists of any sort. Recently I've had the privilege to host Andre Burguete who invented the instrument. It was pure joy to hear him fill the house with his beautiful and tasteful playing, still a wonderful memory. He plays with nails but recently developed a playing technique somewhat different from Segovia style to serve the possibilities of the Liuto Forte best. So most importantlyl, the instruments of the Liuto Forte family are beautifully crafted and sound beautiful. In that respect they can only be praised highly. Really highly, to my humble judgment. If you have to classify the sound of a Liuto Forte on a scale between early music lute (or vihuela, if you like) on one end and the guitar on the other end, it would certainly be closer to the guitar than to the early music lute or vihuela, while you can shift the position closer to early music instruments when you play the Liuto Forte without nails. But to leave it with that one-dimensional judgment of sound characteristics would not really do justice to the instrument. It has to be said that the Liuto Forte has an astonishing range and variability of sound characteristics which can neither be covered by a modern guitar nor by a lute. When played with nails, the strings feel somewhat softer than guitar strings and can be played with less force. This is no wonder as string tension is lower than on a guitar. Overall, to my impression a Liuto Forte sounds more transparent, which serves polyphony. This is particularly so in the bass range where a guitar often (or probably usually) sounds somewhat "thick" and "too strong" while a Liuto Forte has more clarity here as well as a better balance between bass and treble in my judgment. Not to forget the possibilities that open up with the enlarged bass range and the variability made possible by the family of instruments. One may well say, the lute family is all one needs and be happy with this. I have nothing to say against such a stance except that this is only spoken from a certain taste and viewpoint which is open to discussion to say the least. I myself do much welcome a new family of instruments which mirrors the world of lutes in a way the violin family mirrors the viol family. I feel quite strange seeing them dismissed in a sentence, called them "fake lutes" etc. Couldn't one call, with equal right, a modern violin a "fake viol", or a modern guitar a "fake guitar" as it is not a Renaissance or Baroque guitar, or a Bach concert played by a modern orchestra a "fake concert". There are certainly people who do so... I see no reason why I shouldn't love all of these instruments and ways of playing music (if well done of course...). As said, there's nothing to say against different tastes and viewpoints here, but much to say against dogmatic and dismissing viewpoints. (By the way, the Liuto Forte team was, awarded the European Innovation Award for Musical Instruments in 1999 given by Robert Schuman Foundation and the Europaeische Kulturstiftung. So it seems I'm not the only one with my high esteem.) The Liuto Forte sounds well also without nails. Thus you can play romantic music without nails to an astonishing effect. It sounds quite intimate and soft. I never played a parlor guitar thus I cannot compare but I loved the possibility to use the Liuto Forte in this way which is not possible with the modern guitar. You can also play lute music without nails which produces - in my view - a sound which quite deviates from normal guitar sound and may give more justice to, say, Renaissance lute music as a guitar would. I played some English Renaissance music without nail
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
are, there might be opportunities where you might prefer playing a Liuto Forte not only for subjective taste reasons but also for practical reasons. Please take this as the opinion and experience of a non-expert who loves music and simply likes the Liuto Forte regarding sound and possibilities as well as regarding design. Best Franz --- Dr. Franz Mechsner Zum Kirschberg 40 D-14806 Belzig OT Borne franz.mechs...@gmx.de +49(0)33841-441362 Gesendet: Freitag, 23. August 2013 um 03:43 Uhr Von: "Bruno Correia" An: lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte But, do they sound lute like? The samples feature guitarrists playing with nails and single strings... 2013/8/22 [1]r.turov...@gmail.com <[2]r.turov...@gmail.com> There are rather poorly designed from the standpoint of visual aesthetics. maybe with the exception of theorbo forte. The swan neck forte is a particularly funny looking contraption. RT On 8/22/2013 6:30 PM, John Lenti wrote: Don't own one but have borrowed and gigged on. Funny sound, like a Steinway classical guitar, but really responsive and loud. I think there is a place for them in this world. Sent from my Ouija board On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 PM, "David Tayler" <[3]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: If they called it a fake lute, it would not sell as well. __ From: Bruno Correia <[4]bruno.l...@gmail.com> To: List LUTELIST <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Liuto forte Would anybody be willing to share his own experience with liuto forte instruments? -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][6][1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 3. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 4. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
But, do they sound lute like? The samples feature guitarrists playing with nails and single strings... 2013/8/22 [1]r.turov...@gmail.com <[2]r.turov...@gmail.com> There are rather poorly designed from the standpoint of visual aesthetics. maybe with the exception of theorbo forte. The swan neck forte is a particularly funny looking contraption. RT On 8/22/2013 6:30 PM, John Lenti wrote: Don't own one but have borrowed and gigged on. Funny sound, like a Steinway classical guitar, but really responsive and loud. I think there is a place for them in this world. Sent from my Ouija board On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 PM, "David Tayler" <[3]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: If they called it a fake lute, it would not sell as well. __ From: Bruno Correia <[4]bruno.l...@gmail.com> To: List LUTELIST <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Liuto forte Would anybody be willing to share his own experience with liuto forte instruments? -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 3. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 4. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
There are rather poorly designed from the standpoint of visual aesthetics. maybe with the exception of theorbo forte. The swan neck forte is a particularly funny looking contraption. RT On 8/22/2013 6:30 PM, John Lenti wrote: Don't own one but have borrowed and gigged on. Funny sound, like a Steinway classical guitar, but really responsive and loud. I think there is a place for them in this world. Sent from my Ouija board On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 PM, "David Tayler" wrote: If they called it a fake lute, it would not sell as well. __ From: Bruno Correia To: List LUTELIST Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Liuto forte Would anybody be willing to share his own experience with liuto forte instruments? -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Don't own one but have borrowed and gigged on. Funny sound, like a Steinway classical guitar, but really responsive and loud. I think there is a place for them in this world. Sent from my Ouija board On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 PM, "David Tayler" wrote: > If they called it a fake lute, it would not sell as well. > __ > > From: Bruno Correia > To: List LUTELIST > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:41 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Liuto forte > Would anybody be willing to share his own experience with liuto forte > instruments? > -- > Bruno Figueiredo > Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao > historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. > Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela > Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. > -- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
If they called it a fake lute, it would not sell as well. __ From: Bruno Correia To: List LUTELIST Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Liuto forte Would anybody be willing to share his own experience with liuto forte instruments? -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Bedanckt! RT - Original Message - From: "David van Ooijen" To: "Roman Turovsky" Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 6:55 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: A student at 48, in fact. Got a NYSCA grant to study Ukrainian epic singing. The coolest thing! Congratulations! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 6:55 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: > A student at 48, in fact. > Got a NYSCA grant to study Ukrainian epic singing. The coolest thing! Congratulations! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
A student at 48, in fact. Got a NYSCA grant to study Ukrainian epic singing. RT From: and written with the cattiness of a student...a freshman maybe? Except the students you heard play for Hoppy were young (one was 19) and you are ? Mark From: Roman Turovsky felt the same about hearing the lute torture such perfect vocal music. Unless he was a practitioner of both, more often than not. Couldn't say that about them guitar students. RT (fresh out of a voice lesson). = -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
and written with the cattiness of a student...a freshman maybe? Except the students you heard play for Hoppy were young (one was 19) and you are ? Mark -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: terli...@aol.com; chriswi...@yahoo.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 11:56 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > felt the same about hearing the lute torture such perfect vocal music. Unless he was a practitioner of both, more often than not. Couldn't say that about them guitar students. RT (fresh out a voice lesson). = -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
From: Hey Roman, And I got to meet your smiling face, too. In fact! Hoppy taught the students very well and they learned alot from him. I do hope so. As Hoppy said, a big part of the lute repertoire. is made up of transcriptions and, in those idealized days of yore, I am sure a singer of Josquin des Prez Well, intabulation is not exactly transcription, as it usually contains a lot of personal liberties. felt the same about hearing the lute torture such perfect vocal music. Unless he was a practitioner of both, more often than not. Couldn't say that about them guitar students. RT (fresh out a voice lesson). From: Roman Turovsky It does sound much more interesting than a guitar though, even if it sound a bit too much like one (but thankfully not quite). I have recently observed Hoppy Smith's masterclass for guitarists torturing lute repertoire, and I was really grateful for bypassing the guitar myself. RT - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It's a guitar, as confirmed by Peter Autschbach's jazz recording. If you tried to do what he did on a real lute, the results would be entirely different. (I liked it, though.) On the other hand, I was disappointed that Contini's "arciliuto forte" recording didn't seem to be particularly louder than a historical-model archlute... again displaying the fact that the fuller tonal spectrum and ostensibly greater dynamic range of the modern guitar (and liuto forte) doesn't help one iota in ensemble situations. I'm not ready to make up my mind from recorded examples. I would still like to hear/play one in person. Chris --- On Tue, 12/22/09, luther maynard wrote: From: luther maynard Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte To: mathias.roe...@t-online.de, l...@pantagruel.de Cc: sauvag...@orange.fr, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 5:34 PM To each his own, but it sounds more like a Guitar than a Lute to my ears. LM > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:54:00 + > To: l...@pantagruel.de > CC: sauvag...@orange.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > http://www.liuto-forte.com/ click on folder , then on > on the left (Oliver Holzenburg, Anett Bartuschka, > Christian Hostettler, Luciano Contini, Peter Autschbach). > > Mathias > > "Edward Martin" schrieb: > > I am curious... are there any professional recordings on liuto forte? > > > > ed > > > > At 03:06 PM 12/21/2009, lute wrote: > > >The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. > > >As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach wrote 6 > > >suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the lute. > > >I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it does not > > >seem to have interested him a great deal. > > > > > >But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an instrument > > >that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto forte is > > >not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. > > > > > >There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque lute so > > >they do not seem to be "unplayable". > > > > > >All the best > > >Mark > > > > > > > > >p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 suites > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 > > >prelude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. > > >Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 > > >(reconstitution E. Bellocq) > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. > > >Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, theme et variations sur la chanson traditionnelle > > >japonaise. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 > > >prelude, fugue et allegro. > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 > > >prelude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourree, gigue. > > >Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b n-o2. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. > > >DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a > > >prelude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourree, gigue. > > > > > >-Urspruengliche Nachricht- > > >Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag > > >von Franz Mechsner > > >Gesendet: Mo
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Self-abuse and this person must go to confession. -Original Message- From: howard posner To: Lutelist list Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:55 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte On Dec 23, 2009, at 7:51 AM, terli...@aol.com wrote: > I am sure a singer of Josquin des Prez > > felt the same about hearing the lute torture such perfect vocal music. Unless, as is not unlikely, the singer and the lute player were the same person. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
On Dec 23, 2009, at 7:51 AM, terli...@aol.com wrote: > I am sure a singer of Josquin des Prez > > felt the same about hearing the lute torture such perfect vocal music. Unless, as is not unlikely, the singer and the lute player were the same person. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Hey Roman, And I got to meet your smiling face, too. Hoppy taught the students very well and they learned alot from him. As Hoppy said, a big part of the lute repertoire. is made up of transcriptions and, in those idealized days of yore, I am sure a singer of Josquin des Prez felt the same about hearing the lute torture such perfect vocal music. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: chriswi...@yahoo.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 10:10 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It does sound much more interesting than a guitar though, even if it sound a bit too much like one (but thankfully not quite). I have recently observed Hoppy Smith's masterclass for guitarists torturing lute repertoire, and I was really grateful for bypassing the guitar myself. RT - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It's a guitar, as confirmed by Peter Autschbach's jazz recording. If you tried to do what he did on a real lute, the results would be entirely different. (I liked it, though.) On the other hand, I was disappointed that Contini's "arciliuto forte" recording didn't seem to be particularly louder than a historical-model archlute... again displaying the fact that the fuller tonal spectrum and ostensibly greater dynamic range of the modern guitar (and liuto forte) doesn't help one iota in ensemble situations. I'm not ready to make up my mind from recorded examples. I would still like to hear/play one in person. Chris --- On Tue, 12/22/09, luther maynard wrote: > From: luther maynard > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > To: mathias.roe...@t-online.de, l...@pantagruel.de > Cc: sauvag...@orange.fr, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 5:34 PM > To each his own, > but it sounds more like a Guitar than a Lute to my > ears. > > LM > > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:54:00 > + > > To: l...@pantagruel.de > > CC: sauvag...@orange.fr; > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > http://www.liuto-forte.com/ click on folder > , then > on > > on the left > (Oliver Holzenburg, Anett Bartuschka, > > Christian Hostettler, Luciano > Contini, Peter Autschbach). > > > > Mathias > > > > "Edward Martin" > schrieb: > > > I am curious... are there any > professional recordings on liuto > forte? > > > > > > ed > > > > > > At 03:06 PM 12/21/2009, lute > wrote: > > > >The text was used for a > performance at a lute festival in Belgium. > > > >As you admit it does sound > silly, there is no evidence that Bach > wrote 6 > > > >suites for the lute, even > that he was so very interested in the > lute. > > > >I am sure a lot of > lutenists would love to think he was, but it > does not > > > >seem to have interested him > a great deal. > > > > > > > >But maybe he could see into > the future and wanted to write for an > instrument > > > >that was invented a few > hundred years lateror maybe the liuto > forte is > > > >not a new instrument, but > an idea stolen from the 18th century. > > > > > > > >There are also a number of > modern performances on dminor baroque > lute so > > > >they do not seem to be > "unplayable". > > > > > > > >All the best > > > >Mark > > > > > > > > > > > >p.S. Here is EB's programme > presenting the reconstructed 6 > suites > > > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 995 > > > >prelude, allemande, > courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. > > > >Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande > lointaine. > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 999 > > > >(reconstitution E. > Bellocq) > > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, > menuets 1, 2 et 3. > > > >Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, > theme et variations sur la chanson > traditionnelle > > > >japonaise. > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 998 > > > >prelude, fugue et allegro. > > > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 996 > > > >prelude, allemande, > courante, sarabande, bourree, gigue. > > > >Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: > larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b n-o2. > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH:
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
It does sound much more interesting than a guitar though, even if it sound a bit too much like one (but thankfully not quite). I have recently observed Hoppy Smith's masterclass for guitarists torturing lute repertoire, and I was really grateful for bypassing the guitar myself. RT - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It's a guitar, as confirmed by Peter Autschbach's jazz recording. If you tried to do what he did on a real lute, the results would be entirely different. (I liked it, though.) On the other hand, I was disappointed that Contini's "arciliuto forte" recording didn't seem to be particularly louder than a historical-model archlute... again displaying the fact that the fuller tonal spectrum and ostensibly greater dynamic range of the modern guitar (and liuto forte) doesn't help one iota in ensemble situations. I'm not ready to make up my mind from recorded examples. I would still like to hear/play one in person. Chris --- On Tue, 12/22/09, luther maynard wrote: From: luther maynard Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte To: mathias.roe...@t-online.de, l...@pantagruel.de Cc: sauvag...@orange.fr, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 5:34 PM To each his own, but it sounds more like a Guitar than a Lute to my ears. LM > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:54:00 + > To: l...@pantagruel.de > CC: sauvag...@orange.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > http://www.liuto-forte.com/ click on folder , then on > on the left (Oliver Holzenburg, Anett Bartuschka, > Christian Hostettler, Luciano Contini, Peter Autschbach). > > Mathias > > "Edward Martin" schrieb: > > I am curious... are there any professional recordings on liuto forte? > > > > ed > > > > At 03:06 PM 12/21/2009, lute wrote: > > >The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. > > >As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach wrote 6 > > >suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the lute. > > >I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it does not > > >seem to have interested him a great deal. > > > > > >But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an instrument > > >that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto forte is > > >not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. > > > > > >There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque lute so > > >they do not seem to be "unplayable". > > > > > >All the best > > >Mark > > > > > > > > >p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 suites > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 > > >prelude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. > > >Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 > > >(reconstitution E. Bellocq) > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. > > >Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, theme et variations sur la chanson traditionnelle > > >japonaise. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 > > >prelude, fugue et allegro. > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 > > >prelude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourree, gigue. > > >Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b n-o2. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. > > >DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a > > >prelude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourree, gigue. > > > > > >-Urspruengliche Nachricht- > > >Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag > > >von Franz Mechsner > > >Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 17:09 > > >An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage Valery; lute > > >Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > Dear Mark, > > > > > > where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed > > > a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in > > > research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, > > > one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's > > > the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be.. > > > > > > F > > > _
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
It's a guitar, as confirmed by Peter Autschbach's jazz recording. If you tried to do what he did on a real lute, the results would be entirely different. (I liked it, though.) On the other hand, I was disappointed that Contini's "arciliuto forte" recording didn't seem to be particularly louder than a historical-model archlute... again displaying the fact that the fuller tonal spectrum and ostensibly greater dynamic range of the modern guitar (and liuto forte) doesn't help one iota in ensemble situations. I'm not ready to make up my mind from recorded examples. I would still like to hear/play one in person. Chris --- On Tue, 12/22/09, luther maynard wrote: > From: luther maynard > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > To: mathias.roe...@t-online.de, l...@pantagruel.de > Cc: sauvag...@orange.fr, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Tuesday, December 22, 2009, 5:34 PM > To each his own, > but it sounds more like a Guitar than a Lute to my > ears. > > LM > > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:54:00 > + > > To: l...@pantagruel.de > > CC: sauvag...@orange.fr; > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > http://www.liuto-forte.com/ click on folder > , then > on > > on the left > (Oliver Holzenburg, Anett Bartuschka, > > Christian Hostettler, Luciano > Contini, Peter Autschbach). > > > > Mathias > > > > "Edward Martin" > schrieb: > > > I am curious... are there any > professional recordings on liuto > forte? > > > > > > ed > > > > > > At 03:06 PM 12/21/2009, lute > wrote: > > > >The text was used for a > performance at a lute festival in Belgium. > > > >As you admit it does sound > silly, there is no evidence that Bach > wrote 6 > > > >suites for the lute, even > that he was so very interested in the > lute. > > > >I am sure a lot of > lutenists would love to think he was, but it > does not > > > >seem to have interested him > a great deal. > > > > > > > >But maybe he could see into > the future and wanted to write for an > instrument > > > >that was invented a few > hundred years lateror maybe the liuto > forte is > > > >not a new instrument, but > an idea stolen from the 18th century. > > > > > > > >There are also a number of > modern performances on dminor baroque > lute so > > > >they do not seem to be > "unplayable". > > > > > > > >All the best > > > >Mark > > > > > > > > > > > >p.S. Here is EB's programme > presenting the reconstructed 6 > suites > > > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 995 > > > >prelude, allemande, > courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. > > > >Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande > lointaine. > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 999 > > > >(reconstitution E. > Bellocq) > > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, > menuets 1, 2 et 3. > > > >Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, > theme et variations sur la chanson > traditionnelle > > > >japonaise. > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 998 > > > >prelude, fugue et allegro. > > > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 996 > > > >prelude, allemande, > courante, sarabande, bourree, gigue. > > > >Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: > larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b n-o2. > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 997 > > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, > gigue et double. > > > >DEBUSSY: La fille aux > cheveux de lin. > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: > suite BWV 1006a > > > >prelude, loure, gavotte en > rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourree, > gigue. > > > > > > > >-Urspruengliche > Nachricht- > > > >Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > Im Auftrag > > > >von Franz Mechsner > > > >Gesendet: Montag, 21. > Dezember 2009 17:09 > > > >An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage > Valery; lute > > > >Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto > forte > > > > > > > > Dear Mark, > > > > > > > > where did y
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
What is interesting to read on the "Liuto Forte" site is their argumentation... One example about frets : "The commonly heard argument, that movability of the frets was retained for the purpose of finely adjusting unequal temperament, does not pay enough attention to the fact that the shifting of a fret always affects several neighbouring strings. Practical investigation into transferring onto fretted instruments those unequal temperaments that were the norm for keyboard instruments has tended today to yield disappointing results. [2] This is less surprising when we remember that a prerequisite for tuning in unequal steps was having a separately tunable string for every tone. Already in 1600, pieces were appearing in lute literature that modulate so freely through the keys, that one can easily imagine how equal temperament had its origin in the tuning of fretted instruments. [3] The fact that controversies were constantly flaring up concerning the better temperament justifies the conclusion that there were always musical ears for whom Pythagorean thirds and wolf fifths were too high a price to pay for the occasional, especially effective pure interval. [4] So long as the player does not intend to purposely make use of unsatisfactory string material, or insist on reconstructing a "faithful" historical lute, there is no reason whatever to cling to tied-on frets and their extreme acoustic disadvantages." And we can go on with many other interesting arguments... on double/single strings : "Double courses require a technique which rather strokes than plucks the strings, setting them in vibration parallel to the soundboard. From the point of view of optimal air and soundboard resonance, this is known to be the least effective method. Players of guitars and theorbos know they need to play the strings down "into" the instrument, in order to get the full sound. Renouncing double courses does admittedly first mean losing that silvery rustling which many enthusiasts find to be the "authentic" lute's chief characteristic. It leads, however, in combination with the new soundboard construction and higher string tension, to a real exploitation of the enclosed air mass and to an incomparably greater range of sound-shaping possibilities. Two strings with half-tension do not achieve the same realisation of sound as does a single string in full tension. Moreover the co-ordination of thin strings to the internal resistance, or impedance, of the soundboard deviates widely from the ideal match." Source : [1]http://www.liuto-forte.com/EN/index.cfm So many thinks we missed and mistaken... Val ;-) -- References 1. http://www.liuto-forte.com/EN/index.cfm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I agree. ed At 04:34 PM 12/22/2009, luther maynard wrote: >To each his own, but it sounds more like a Guitar than a Lute to my >ears. > >LM >> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:54:00 + >> To: l...@pantagruel.de >> CC: sauvag...@orange.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte >> >> http://www.liuto-forte.com/ click on folder , then >on >> on the left (Oliver Holzenburg, Anett Bartuschka, >> Christian Hostettler, Luciano Contini, Peter Autschbach). >> >> Mathias >> >> "Edward Martin" schrieb: >> > I am curious... are there any professional recordings on liuto >forte? >> > >> > ed >> > >> > At 03:06 PM 12/21/2009, lute wrote: >> > >The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. >> > >As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach >wrote 6 >> > >suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the >lute. >> > >I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it >does not >> > >seem to have interested him a great deal. >> > > >> > >But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an >instrument >> > >that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto >forte is >> > >not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. >> > > >> > >There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque >lute so >> > >they do not seem to be "unplayable". >> > > >> > >All the best >> > >Mark >> > > >> > > >> > >p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 >suites >> > > >> > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 >> > >prelude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. >> > >Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. >> > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 >> > >(reconstitution E. Bellocq) >> > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. >> > >Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, theme et variations sur la chanson >traditionnelle >> > >japonaise. >> > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 >> > >prelude, fugue et allegro. >> > > >> > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 >> > >prelude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourree, gigue. >> > >Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b n-o2. >> > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 >> > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. >> > >DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. >> > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a >> > >prelude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourree, >gigue. >> > > >> > >-Urspruengliche Nachricht- >> > >Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] >Im Auftrag >> > >von Franz Mechsner >> > >Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 17:09 >> > >An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage Valery; lute >> > >Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte >> > > > > > > Dear Mark, >> > > >> > > where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds >indeed >> > > a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have >invested in >> > > research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) >tuning, >> > > one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure >what's >> > > the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to >be... >> > > >> > > F >> > > >__ >> > > >> > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler >> > > Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 >> > > An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute >> > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte >> > > >> > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is >a >> > > lute" >> > > stran
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Oooops and sorry, my first sentence of my just sent mail says it wrong - I mean of course: The sound of the LIUTO FORTE is extremely flexible... :-) Dr. Franz Mechsner Hanse Institute for Advanced Study Lehmkuhlenbusch 4 D-27753 Delmenhorst/Bremen GERMANY E-mail: [1]franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk Phone: +49 (0)4221 9160-215 Fax: +49 (0)4221 9160-179 __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Franz Mechsner Gesendet: Mi 23.12.2009 05:11 An: terlizzi; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Hi, As said, IMHO, (in my VERY humble opinion, only tested against lute audios and CDs as well as against my not very good renaissance lute, never tested with an expert), the sound of the lute is extremely flexible (which is one of its advantages). If played with finger pads just above the rosette makes the LF sound closer to the lute (and quite suited for renaissance pieces etc), and other ways of playing it make it sound closer to the guitar. Most people seem to play it mostly or exclusively with finger nails, in the first place, which then explains the sound usually heard in demos - but one has to try for oneself. No need for a religious fight. Though I especially LOVE the lute-similar sound I can make in the way described I agree to the people who say that the advantage of the LF is not so much to replace any lute in any way (it's an instrument in its own right, but consider Eric Bellocq etc) - but its flexibility in one instrument, which allows to play it with finger pads as well as finger nails, lute-like and guitar-like, even in alternation as you do not have to cut the fingernails to play it with pads. Thus it is a good instrument for people who love the guitar (and occasionally have it with more than 6 strings) but sometimes would like to produce a sound closer to the lute. I have however no idea regarding the LF apart from my 9-string thing. For instance, I could imagine that the tiorba forte could be helpful if really louder as a usual theorbe, as a continuo instrument that actually could be heard even in non David-approved baroque orchestras... F Dr. Franz Mechsner Hanse Institute for Advanced Study Lehmkuhlenbusch 4 D-27753 Delmenhorst/Bremen GERMANY E-mail: [1]franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk Phone: +49 (0)4221 9160-215 Fax: +49 (0)4221 9160-179 __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von terli...@aol.com Gesendet: Mi 23.12.2009 00:20 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I think it sounds somewhere between the alt-guitar that Goran Sollscher plays and a lute. It has less sustain in the upper register than a guitar. I want one! Best, Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: luther maynard To: mathias.roe...@t-online.de; l...@pantagruel.de Cc: sauvag...@orange.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, Dec 22, 2009 5:34 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte To each his own, but it sounds more like a Guitar than a Lute to my ears. LM -- References 1. [2]mailto:franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk 2. mailto:franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Hi, As said, IMHO, (in my VERY humble opinion, only tested against lute audios and CDs as well as against my not very good renaissance lute, never tested with an expert), the sound of the lute is extremely flexible (which is one of its advantages). If played with finger pads just above the rosette makes the LF sound closer to the lute (and quite suited for renaissance pieces etc), and other ways of playing it make it sound closer to the guitar. Most people seem to play it mostly or exclusively with finger nails, in the first place, which then explains the sound usually heard in demos - but one has to try for oneself. No need for a religious fight. Though I especially LOVE the lute-similar sound I can make in the way described I agree to the people who say that the advantage of the LF is not so much to replace any lute in any way (it's an instrument in its own right, but consider Eric Bellocq etc) - but its flexibility in one instrument, which allows to play it with finger pads as well as finger nails, lute-like and guitar-like, even in alternation as you do not have to cut the fingernails to play it with pads. Thus it is a good instrument for people who love the guitar (and occasionally have it with more than 6 strings) but sometimes would like to produce a sound closer to the lute. I have however no idea regarding the LF apart from my 9-string thing. For instance, I could imagine that the tiorba forte could be helpful if really louder as a usual theorbe, as a continuo instrument that actually could be heard even in non David-approved baroque orchestras... F Dr. Franz Mechsner Hanse Institute for Advanced Study Lehmkuhlenbusch 4 D-27753 Delmenhorst/Bremen GERMANY E-mail: [1]franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk Phone: +49 (0)4221 9160-215 Fax: +49 (0)4221 9160-179 __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von terli...@aol.com Gesendet: Mi 23.12.2009 00:20 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I think it sounds somewhere between the alt-guitar that Goran Sollscher plays and a lute. It has less sustain in the upper register than a guitar. I want one! Best, Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: luther maynard To: mathias.roe...@t-online.de; l...@pantagruel.de Cc: sauvag...@orange.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, Dec 22, 2009 5:34 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte To each his own, but it sounds more like a Guitar than a Lute to my ears. LM -- References 1. mailto:franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I think it sounds somewhere between the alt-guitar that Goran Sollscher plays and a lute. It has less sustain in the upper register than a guitar. I want one! Best, Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: luther maynard To: mathias.roe...@t-online.de; l...@pantagruel.de Cc: sauvag...@orange.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, Dec 22, 2009 5:34 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte To each his own, but it sounds more like a Guitar than a Lute to my ears. LM > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:54:00 + > To: l...@pantagruel.de > CC: sauvag...@orange.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > http://www.liuto-forte.com/ click on folder , then on > on the left (Oliver Holzenburg, Anett Bartuschka, > Christian Hostettler, Luciano Contini, Peter Autschbach). > > Mathias > > "Edward Martin" schrieb: > > I am curious... are there any professional recordings on liuto forte? > > > > ed > > > > At 03:06 PM 12/21/2009, lute wrote: > > >The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. > > >As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach wrote 6 > > >suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the lute. > > >I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it does not > > >seem to have interested him a great deal. > > > > > >But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an instrument > > >that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto forte is > > >not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. > > > > > >There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque lute so > > >they do not seem to be "unplayable". > > > > > >All the best > > >Mark > > > > > > > > >p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 suites > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 > > >prelude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. > > >Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 > > >(reconstitution E. Bellocq) > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. > > >Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, theme et variations sur la chanson traditionnelle > > >japonaise. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 > > >prelude, fugue et allegro. > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 > > >prelude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourree, gigue. > > >Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b n-o2. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. > > >DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a > > >prelude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourree, gigue. > > > > > >-Urspruengliche Nachricht- > > >Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag > > >von Franz Mechsner > > >Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 17:09 > > >An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage Valery; lute > > >Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > Dear Mark, > > > > > > where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed > > > a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in > > > research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, > > > one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's > > > the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be... > > > > > > F > > > __ > > > > > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler > > > Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 > > > An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute > > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a > > > lute" > > > strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same > > > lutenist.. > > > "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello,
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
To each his own, but it sounds more like a Guitar than a Lute to my ears. LM > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:54:00 + > To: l...@pantagruel.de > CC: sauvag...@orange.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > http://www.liuto-forte.com/ click on folder , then on > on the left (Oliver Holzenburg, Anett Bartuschka, > Christian Hostettler, Luciano Contini, Peter Autschbach). > > Mathias > > "Edward Martin" schrieb: > > I am curious... are there any professional recordings on liuto forte? > > > > ed > > > > At 03:06 PM 12/21/2009, lute wrote: > > >The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. > > >As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach wrote 6 > > >suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the lute. > > >I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it does not > > >seem to have interested him a great deal. > > > > > >But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an instrument > > >that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto forte is > > >not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. > > > > > >There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque lute so > > >they do not seem to be "unplayable". > > > > > >All the best > > >Mark > > > > > > > > >p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 suites > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 > > >prelude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. > > >Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 > > >(reconstitution E. Bellocq) > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. > > >Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, theme et variations sur la chanson traditionnelle > > >japonaise. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 > > >prelude, fugue et allegro. > > > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 > > >prelude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourree, gigue. > > >Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b n-o2. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 > > >prelude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. > > >DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a > > >prelude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourree, gigue. > > > > > >-Urspruengliche Nachricht- > > >Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag > > >von Franz Mechsner > > >Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 17:09 > > >An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage Valery; lute > > >Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > Dear Mark, > > > > > > where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed > > > a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in > > > research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, > > > one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's > > > the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be... > > > > > > F > > > __ > > > > > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler > > > Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 > > > An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute > > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a > > > lute" > > > strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same > > > lutenist.. > > > "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, > > > composed six > > > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute > > > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge > > > and > > > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a `luito > > > forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
http://www.liuto-forte.com/ click on folder , then on on the left (Oliver Holzenburg, Anett Bartuschka, Christian Hostettler, Luciano Còntini, Peter Autschbach). Mathias "Edward Martin" schrieb: > I am curious... are there any professional recordings on liuto forte? > > ed > > At 03:06 PM 12/21/2009, lute wrote: > >The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. > >As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach wrote 6 > >suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the lute. > >I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it does not > >seem to have interested him a great deal. > > > >But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an instrument > >that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto forte is > >not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. > > > >There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque lute so > >they do not seem to be "unplayable". > > > >All the best > >Mark > > > > > >p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 suites > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 > >prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. > >Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 > >(reconstitution É. Bellocq) > >prélude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. > >Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, thème et variations sur la chanson traditionnelle > >japonaise. > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 > >prélude, fugue et allegro. > > > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 > >prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourrée, gigue. > >Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b nº2. > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 > >prélude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. > >DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. > >Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a > >prélude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourrée, gigue. > > > >-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > >Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag > >von Franz Mechsner > >Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 17:09 > >An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage Valéry; lute > >Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > >Dear Mark, > > > >where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed > >a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in > >research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, > >one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's > >the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be... > > > >F > > __ > > > >Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler > >Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 > >An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute > >Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > >Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a > >lute" > >strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same > >lutenist.. > >"It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, > >composed six > >solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute > >compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge > >and > >reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a `luito > >forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite > >playable!" > >Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the > >evidence? > >All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been > >recorded > >many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. > >Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing > >that > >some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering > >that > >huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in > >the > >19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the > >early > >music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. > >Mark > >-Urspruengliche Nachricht- > >Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > >
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte and guitars
(Note that one puny bongo drum, played lightly by an inexpert player, can easily cover up the sound of 50+ classical guitars.) Is that what happened to the 50 Guitars of Tommy Garrett? - Driven off by half a bongo! Best Wishes Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I am curious... are there any professional recordings on liuto forte? ed At 03:06 PM 12/21/2009, lute wrote: The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach wrote 6 suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the lute. I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it does not seem to have interested him a great deal. But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an instrument that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto forte is not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque lute so they do not seem to be "unplayable". All the best Mark p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 suites Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 (reconstitution É. Bellocq) prélude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, thème et variations sur la chanson traditionnelle japonaise. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 prélude, fugue et allegro. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourrée, gigue. Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b nº2. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 prélude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a prélude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourrée, gigue. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Franz Mechsner Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 17:09 An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage Valéry; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Dear Mark, where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be... F __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed six solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a `luito forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite playable!" Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing that some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the early music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. Mark -Urspruengliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Sauvage Valery Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: terli...@aol.com > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > lutenists: > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
So... what's the magic tuning? --- On Mon, 12/21/09, Roman Turovsky wrote: > From: Roman Turovsky > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > To: "Eugene C. Braig IV" , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 10:29 AM > Well, the problem is that AB's "JSB" > tunins is not hypothetical, but is > rather based on a real (albeit rare) angelique tuning, that > does in fact > remove all difficulties from JSB's lute works. > I personally find it plausible. > RT > - Original Message - > From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:15 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach > wrote anything at all > specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of > the "lute" works being > intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some > others. But still, > tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that > a newly invented lute > type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" > doesn't seem to > lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own > time. > > What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired > Vivaldi who wrote several > works for mandolin. Handel used it in an > oratorio. Surely, Bach must have > composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and > violin, eh? We > have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he > wrote dozens of suites > for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, > partitas, etc.). > It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello > suites are > uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere. > > Eugene > > > > -----Original Message- > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > On > > Behalf Of Mark Wheeler > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM > > To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute > saying it is a lute" > > strange then have a look at this promotion text from > the same lutenist.. > > > > "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and > the cello, composed > > six > > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these > incredibly difficult lute > > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq > accepted the challenge and > > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this > purpose, he had a 'luito > > forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these > compositions quite > > playable!" > > > > Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, > where is the evidence? > > All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements > have been recorded > > many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque > lute. > > > > Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is > the sort of thing > > that > > some classical promoters probably lap up, not > surprising considering that > > huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music > dreamed up in the > > 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of > the aims of the > > early > > music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions > and myths. > > > > Mark > > > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > Im > > Auftrag > > von Sauvage Valéry > > Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 > > An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar > player myself, on > > romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play > a guitar in form of > > a > > > > lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute > "forte" enough in > > itself, > > > > that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he > wants... > > V. > > > > - Original Message - > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: terli...@aol.com > > > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > > > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
eric bellocq: See his website: It was while finishing his study of guitar in 1983 with Alexandre Lagoya at the Paris Conservatory (where he now teaches) that Eric Bellocq received his first initiation to basso continuo and started to work in William Christie's baroque group, " Les Arts Florissants", which he subsequently left in 1990. >From 1991, he has been playing mainly renaissance lute with the ensemble "Clément Janequin", directed by Dominique Visse. Since 2000, with the show "Le Chant des Balles", a duo with a juggler Vincent de Lavenère, he has been able to resume production of his own musical works, while remaining faithful to the early music styles. Apart from participating in a large number of discs with various orchestras and groups, a few duet and solo recordings have been released by Naxos, Kings Records (Japan) and Frame (Italy). In 2009, his research on J. S. Bach's works for lute took a concrete form by virtue of an innovative new tuning for the instrument. Important European festivals such as AMUZ (Antwerp) or Festival de Saintes gave audience an opportunity to listen to the suites BWV 996, 997 and 998, which were rarely performed in live concert. I must tell that his old programme "Chant des balles" with the juggler is really very good, I saw it twice. The "Bach en Balles" last February at the Lute Festival in Antwerp was the first performance of their new programme, but not quite ready IMHO (playing by heart, in a total new tuning, while juggling and sitting on a moving low chair: it was a too big challenge, all these things combined) I always found it a bit suspicious that the director of Amuz, our partner in the organisation of this festival, really believed his statement that the the so called lute suites were "rarely performed in live concert" and that he just discovered the Liuto Forte and this new tuning. But as they payed him for this "première"...(First performance) we couldn't really object,and luckily we also had our own programmes. Looking forward to the next European (or World) Lute Festival now in Füssen, Germany next May 21-24 in 2010 Greet Belgian Lute Society -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens lute Verzonden: maandag 21 december 2009 22:06 Aan: 'Franz Mechsner'; 'Sauvage Valéry'; 'lute' Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach wrote 6 suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the lute. I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it does not seem to have interested him a great deal. But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an instrument that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto forte is not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque lute so they do not seem to be "unplayable". All the best Mark p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 suites Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 (reconstitution É. Bellocq) prélude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, thème et variations sur la chanson traditionnelle japonaise. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 prélude, fugue et allegro. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourrée, gigue. Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b nº2. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 prélude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a prélude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourrée, gigue. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Franz Mechsner Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 17:09 An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage Valéry; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Dear Mark, where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be... F ______ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute sayi
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte and guitars
>>> 12/21/2009 10:00 AM >>> OK, it has finally come to this ;-) First, check out this modern abomination of many guitars: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ARQsw4ml8g (Note that one puny bongo drum, played lightly by an inexpert player, can easily cover up the sound of 50+ classical guitars.) --That's 'cause they're all acoustic, Chris! Just give 'em Strats and they'll knock the drummer off the stage! -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ARQsw4ml8g To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
The text was used for a performance at a lute festival in Belgium. As you admit it does sound silly, there is no evidence that Bach wrote 6 suites for the lute, even that he was so very interested in the lute. I am sure a lot of lutenists would love to think he was, but it does not seem to have interested him a great deal. But maybe he could see into the future and wanted to write for an instrument that was invented a few hundred years lateror maybe the liuto forte is not a new instrument, but an idea stolen from the 18th century. There are also a number of modern performances on dminor baroque lute so they do not seem to be "unplayable". All the best Mark p.S. Here is EB's programme presenting the reconstructed 6 suites Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 995 prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, gavottes 1 et 2, gigue. Joaquin RODRIGO: Sarabande lointaine. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 999 (reconstitution É. Bellocq) prélude, fugue, sarabande, menuets 1, 2 et 3. Yuquijiro YOCOH: Sakura, thème et variations sur la chanson traditionnelle japonaise. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 998 prélude, fugue et allegro. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 996 prélude, allemande, courante, sarabande, bourrée, gigue. Wolfgang Amadeus MOZART: larghetto du Divertimento KV 439b nº2. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 997 prélude, fugue, sarabande, gigue et double. DEBUSSY: La fille aux cheveux de lin. Johann Sebastian BACH: suite BWV 1006a prélude, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuets 1 et 2, bourrée, gigue. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Franz Mechsner Gesendet: Montag, 21. Dezember 2009 17:09 An: Mark Wheeler; Sauvage Valéry; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Dear Mark, where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be... F __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed six solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a `luito forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite playable!" Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing that some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the early music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. Mark -Urspruengliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Sauvage Valery Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: terli...@aol.com > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > lutenists: > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte and guitars
On Dec 21, 2009, at 7:00 AM, wrote: > (Note that one puny bongo drum, played lightly by an inexpert > player, can easily cover up the sound of 50+ classical guitars.) As the tympani, bass drum, cymbals, tam-tam, or gong (and, I'm sure, other percussion instruments that don't come to mind at the moment) can cover up a modern symphony orchestra. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
> -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of howard posner > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 12:03 PM > To: Lutelist list > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > On Dec 21, 2009, at 8:28 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > > > That often played out in publication, but I don't know how big a > > role it > > played in novelty pieces in manuscript, especially given Bach's > > ties to any > > actual lute (rather than lautenwerk or via transcription by > > contemporary > > lutenists) seem rather tentative. > > You mean other than the extremely expensive lute Bach actually owned? > Obviously not, and I should have been more clear. I was referring to what has survived of Bach's music bearing a lute designation or attribution. Especially if intended for actual rather than idealized hypothetical lutes (or lautenwerk), that music still seems to inhabit the realm of novelty amongst Bach's output. I have many texts on botanical taxonomy on my shelves, but I'm not a botanist. I own an excellent jazz guitar, but have left even less evidence that I'm an excellent jazz guitarist (for good reason: I'm not) than Bach did that he was a lutenist with professional aspirations to publish collections of lute music. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
On Dec 21, 2009, at 8:28 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > That often played out in publication, but I don't know how big a > role it > played in novelty pieces in manuscript, especially given Bach's > ties to any > actual lute (rather than lautenwerk or via transcription by > contemporary > lutenists) seem rather tentative. You mean other than the extremely expensive lute Bach actually owned? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
That's not quite what I meant. A lute song by Dowland is even different from a viol solo by Hume or a keyboard solo by Bull. Diabelli's piano fluff doesn't really compare to Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata, but the whole of early-romantic piano repertoire isn't fairly represented by either end of this spectrum. Likewise, York's Sunburst for guitar isn't quite like Balkanski's sonata, but they are both good fun and both serve a function to those who like hearing them. I was suggesting that, in whole, the body of guitar repertoire isn't necessarily any different in the *level* of quality represented. Some proportion of it can be considered noteworthy; much of it can be considered rather schlocky. I think that's the case with almost any instrument popular enough to have inspired a substantial body of designated repertoire. Some of it will be crafted to sell to the masses rather than to reflect lofty or disciplined artistic ideals. Eugene ___ From: nedma...@aol.com [mailto:nedma...@aol.com] Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:15 AM To: brai...@osu.edu; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte "I don't see how it's substantially different from any other instrument's repetoire. . ." I don't think it's denigrating to any instrument to accept that there are very substantial differences in both quantity and quality between it's repetoire and that of other instuments.The reason I switched from the lute to the cello many years ago was because - having enjoyed early ensemble music - I wanted to explore more recent ensemble music, especially the string quartet. The reason I've returned to the lute is that I now want to explore the wonderful solo repetoire for the lute (comparatively speaking, there ain't a lot for cello). Playing the lute, I never experienced anything like the late Beethoven quartets. Playing the cello, I never experienced anything like Dowland lute songs or solos. Not playing the piano, I'll never experience anything like the Brahms sonatas. . . Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
That often played out in publication, but I don't know how big a role it played in novelty pieces in manuscript, especially given Bach's ties to any actual lute (rather than lautenwerk or via transcription by contemporary lutenists) seem rather tentative. Bach, e.g., also seems to have really missed his mark for solo flute. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:r.turov...@verizon.net] > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 11:06 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" > >An intriguing point regarding angelique tuning. However, arguing there > >must > >be six J.S. Bach suites specifically for some incarnation of lute because > >there is that number known for cello still seems silly. I didn't realize > >Bach was writing to fill quotas for solo suites. > Not only JSB, but every suite composer of the era followed a numerological > ideal. > RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
"I don't see how it's substantially different from any other instrument's repetoire. . ." I don't think it's denigrating to any instrument to accept that there are very substantial differences in both quantity and quality between it's repetoire and that of other instuments.The reason I switched from the lute to the cello many years ago was because - having enjoyed early ensemble music - I wanted to explore more recent ensemble music, especially the string quartet. The reason I've returned to the lute is that I now want to explore the wonderful solo repetoire for the lute (comparatively speaking, there ain't a lot for cello). Playing the lute, I never experienced anything like the late Beethoven quartets. Playing the cello, I never experienced anything like Dowland lute songs or solos. Not playing the piano, I'll never experience anything like the Brahms sonatas. . . Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Dear Mark, where did you get Eric Bellocq's promotion text from? It sounds indeed a little silly - but given how much work he semed to have invested in research on Bach suites, and finally playing them in ABs (?) tuning, one should do him justice before ridiculing him and make sure what's the matter with this text... not everything is what it seems to be... F __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Mark Wheeler Gesendet: So 20.12.2009 16:27 An: 'Sauvage Valery'; lute Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed six solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a `luito forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite playable!" Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing that some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the early music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. Mark -Urspruengliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Sauvage Valery Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: terli...@aol.com > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > lutenists: > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there > are players that can do it. > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: > Le marteau sans maA(R)tre: Webern op.18, > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... > Best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage ValA(c)ry > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Valery, > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage ValA(c)ry wrote: >> Ok forte, >> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for >> the one he used). >> So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you >> can play with nails... > > Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really > awful > ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other > classical > guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it > may be > technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize > the > lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern > instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a certain > portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its > charm in > other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even > then it > do
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" An intriguing point regarding angelique tuning. However, arguing there must be six J.S. Bach suites specifically for some incarnation of lute because there is that number known for cello still seems silly. I didn't realize Bach was writing to fill quotas for solo suites. Not only JSB, but every suite composer of the era followed a numerological ideal. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I would like to second that! The Campion recording is superb! Mark -Original Message- From: Eugene C. Braig IV To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Dec 21, 2009 10:46 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte An intriguing point regarding angelique tuning. However, arguing there must be six J.S. Bach suites specifically for some incarnation of lute because there is that number known for cello still seems silly. I didn't realize Bach was writing to fill quotas for solo suites. In spite, I actually am quite fond of Bellocq's recordings on 5-course guitar. In particular, note his recording of Francois Campion's music. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:29 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > Well, the problem is that AB's "JSB" tunins is not hypothetical, but is > rather based on a real (albeit rare) angelique tuning, that does in fact > remove all difficulties from JSB's lute works. > I personally find it plausible. > RT > - Original Message - > From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:15 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach wrote anything at all > specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of the "lute" works > being > intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some others. But still, > tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that a newly invented > lute > type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" doesn't seem to > lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own time. > > What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired Vivaldi who wrote > several > works for mandolin. Handel used it in an oratorio. Surely, Bach must > have > composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and violin, eh? We > have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he wrote dozens of > suites > for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, partitas, > etc.). > It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello suites are > uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere. > > Eugene > > > > -Original Message----- > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > > Behalf Of Mark Wheeler > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM > > To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a > lute" > > strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. > > > > "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed > > six > > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute > > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge > and > > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a 'luito > > forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite > > playable!" > > > > Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the > evidence? > > All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been > recorded > > many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. > > > > Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing > > that > > some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering > that > > huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the > > 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the > > early > > music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. > > > > Mark > > > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > > Auftrag > > von Sauvage Valéry > > Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 > > An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on > > romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form > of > > a > > > > lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in > > itself, > > > > that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... > > V. > > > > - Original Message - > > From: > > To:
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
An intriguing point regarding angelique tuning. However, arguing there must be six J.S. Bach suites specifically for some incarnation of lute because there is that number known for cello still seems silly. I didn't realize Bach was writing to fill quotas for solo suites. In spite, I actually am quite fond of Bellocq's recordings on 5-course guitar. In particular, note his recording of Francois Campion's music. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:29 AM > To: Eugene C. Braig IV; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > Well, the problem is that AB's "JSB" tunins is not hypothetical, but is > rather based on a real (albeit rare) angelique tuning, that does in fact > remove all difficulties from JSB's lute works. > I personally find it plausible. > RT > - Original Message - > From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:15 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach wrote anything at all > specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of the "lute" works > being > intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some others. But still, > tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that a newly invented > lute > type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" doesn't seem to > lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own time. > > What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired Vivaldi who wrote > several > works for mandolin. Handel used it in an oratorio. Surely, Bach must > have > composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and violin, eh? We > have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he wrote dozens of > suites > for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, partitas, > etc.). > It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello suites are > uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere. > > Eugene > > > > -Original Message----- > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > > Behalf Of Mark Wheeler > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM > > To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a > lute" > > strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. > > > > "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed > > six > > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute > > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge > and > > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a 'luito > > forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite > > playable!" > > > > Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the > evidence? > > All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been > recorded > > many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. > > > > Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing > > that > > some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering > that > > huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the > > 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the > > early > > music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. > > > > Mark > > > > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > > Auftrag > > von Sauvage Valéry > > Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 > > An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on > > romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form > of > > a > > > > lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in > > itself, > > > > that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... > > V. > > > > - Original Message - > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > &
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Well, the problem is that AB's "JSB" tunins is not hypothetical, but is rather based on a real (albeit rare) angelique tuning, that does in fact remove all difficulties from JSB's lute works. I personally find it plausible. RT - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" To: Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:15 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach wrote anything at all specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of the "lute" works being intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some others. But still, tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that a newly invented lute type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" doesn't seem to lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own time. What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired Vivaldi who wrote several works for mandolin. Handel used it in an oratorio. Surely, Bach must have composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and violin, eh? We have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he wrote dozens of suites for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, partitas, etc.). It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello suites are uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Wheeler Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. "It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed six solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a 'luito forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite playable!" Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing that some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the early music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Sauvage Valéry Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: terli...@aol.com > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > lutenists: > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there > are players that can do it. > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: > Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... > Best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Valery, > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: >> Ok forte, >> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for >> the one he used). >> So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you >> can play with nails... > > Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach wrote anything at all specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of the "lute" works being intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some others. But still, tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that a newly invented lute type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" doesn't seem to lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own time. What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired Vivaldi who wrote several works for mandolin. Handel used it in an oratorio. Surely, Bach must have composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and violin, eh? We have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he wrote dozens of suites for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, partitas, etc.). It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello suites are uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Mark Wheeler > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM > To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" > strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. > > It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed > six > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a luito > forte built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite > playable! > > Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? > All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded > many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. > > Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing > that > some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that > huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the > 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the > early > music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. > > Mark > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > Auftrag > von Sauvage Valéry > Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 > An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on > romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of > a > > lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in > itself, > > that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... > V. > > - Original Message - > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: terli...@aol.com > > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > > lutenists: > > > > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing > some > > > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain > touch...there > > > are players that can do it. > > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g > Boulez: > > > Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, > > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... > > Best, > > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry > > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > Valery, > > > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: > >> Ok forte, > >> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for > >> the one he used). > >> So why no
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte and guitars
OK, it has finally come to this ;-) First, check out this modern abomination of many guitars: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ARQsw4ml8g (Note that one puny bongo drum, played lightly by an inexpert player, can easily cover up the sound of 50+ classical guitars.) Then there's this example of a steel string guitar in classical music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE-q7zTX7LE (The guitar is tuned high to low: E-C-F#-D-G-C.) How would a lute do? Chris --- On Sun, 12/20/09, Christopher Stetson wrote: > From: Christopher Stetson > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 5:24 PM > Hi, all. > > Clearly now is the time to put this out > to the list: > > [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6wcIOSC-u0 > > That's me on the right in the > (unamplified) classical guitar trio. You > can see my pinkie creepin' down to the > soundboard. I played electric > with pick for most of the concert. > It was fun. > > But don't get on me about Peter's > "archguitar." You'll have to talk to > him about that. > > Best, > > Chris. > >>> > 12/20/2009 10:54 AM >>> > Mark, > --- On Sun, 12/20/09, terli...@aol.com > > wrote: > > From: terli...@aol.com > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, > 9:30 AM > > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed > to death by a horde of > > irate lutenists: > > > Nope. I'm not anti-classical guitar > at all. I consider myself a > musician who chooses the right tool for > the job. Much as I love > theorbo or baroque lute, there's lots of > music for which these > instruments are totally unsuitable. > Same with guitar. > > > > I don't know what kind of guitars > and guitar playing > > lutenists here have been exposed to > here but there is a wide > > variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. > > > I totally agree! As mentioned in my > last message, I believe classical > players should even expand their horizons > to include steel-string and > electric guitars in a classical > context. Nice as the nylon guitar is, > this is such an easy way to extend the > dynamic and tonal range of the > guitar to nearly orchestral proportions. > I have a master's degree in classical > guitar from highly regarded > conservatory. My main area of > emphasis was on contemporary music. > I've written a lot of music for it and > continue to write for it. > Nowadays I only compose solo music for > the nylon-string guitar for the > reasons outlined in my last message: a > modern guitar is built for the > purpose of bringing forth a full, rich > sonic spectrum. Nice. However, > much of this charm gets lost when other > instruments with greater > emphasis on higher partials are > employed. So why use it in chamber > music when other types of guitars exist > which do bring out the higher > partials? > > Hauser style > > guitar guitars are very good for > playing some lute music. > > Smallman type guitars are less good > for playing most lute > > music. To play lute music decently > on guitar takes a certain > > touch...there are players that can > do it. > True. I have no problem with > guitarists playing lute music, but I'm > not very interested in doing it myself > for the same reason I don't play > Villa-Lobos on my 13-course. At the > same time folks should keep in > mind that the nylon-string classical > guitar as we know it only came > into being circa 1950. > > The guitar (unamplified) works great > great in ensemble > > playing e.g Boulez: Le marteau sans > maitre: Webern op.18, > > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and > guitar.. > I haven't really found so. Even in > something like Takemitsu's "Toward > the Sea" the guitar is outshined by the > delicate alto flute. The soft > alto flute tosses off these gentle waves > of sound while us poor > guitarists are fighting to slam out every > note. I've seen these works > performed with amplified guitars but > things always sound so boomy to > me. > Already with Webern we may ask ourselves > what exactly the appropriate > instrument really is. The > Stauffer-style type of guitar construction > remained current in Austria well into the > 1920's. Certa
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
> -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Roman Turovsky > Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 6:31 PM > To: terli...@aol.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > >OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar repertoire! ... > >and is happy with finger >nails. > > ALL guitarists with brains get sick of their repertoire, eventually. Considering myself to have a somewhat functional brain, I can't quite buy into that one. I do see some point in the contention, but the point fails in trying to make a universal argument of it. Not all classical guitarists only indulge the standard repertoire that is fed to the masses ad nauseam. >From the 1500s forward, guitar repertoire is so vast--and still being augmented at such a pace--that nobody could possibly digest it *all* to know enough to be sick of it all. I also don't see how it's substantially different from any other instrument's repertoire, other than that more of it is still being generated than for instruments considered (rightly or wrongly) to belong exclusively to historic repertoire like lutes, viols, lirone, etc. Enjoy...whatever you enjoy! Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Franz, you deserve a compliment. You say you LF has a good tone, but of course you are aware that the player makes the tone. A good player can make any instrument sound good, as a bad player can make the best possible instrument sound bad. Perhaps nowhere more true than on a lute. Thanks so much David :-) but don't compliment me too much - I might get encouraged to enerve you and waste even more of my time (which should be spent otherwise) on the list... you are of course right, but not in every respect: I have NOT been able to make the LF sound much (though somwhat...) lute-like by using fingernails. It sounds lute-like ONLY with a certain finger pad technique which I found out by experimenting. I have to admit that this lute-like sound is somewhere between (romantic, finger-pad played) guitar and my double course (synthetic string) lute, but given my alternatives, I LOVED that sound because it seems to my ears a little more singing and warm than my Renaissance lute. Not very original-minded, I know... And, as I said, maybe the lute sounds best if it sounds "as it should..." as Mathias seems to suggest... I will love to take opportunities to have a try with better lutes than mine. Best Franz On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:59 PM, "Mathias Roesel" wrote: > some single-strung chitarroni with synthetical strings may come close, Or single strung archlutes with synthetics? [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_FkwK24ZYY (So much nicer than their Dowland.) David - in hiding for mentioning S. and K. on the list ;-) -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_FkwK24ZYY 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Franz, you deserve a compliment. You say you LF has a good tone, but of course you are aware that the player makes the tone. A good player can make any instrument sound good, as a bad player can make the best possible instrument sound bad. Perhaps nowhere more true than on a lute. On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:59 PM, "Mathias Rösel" wrote: > some single-strung chitarroni with synthetical strings may come close, Or single strung archlutes with synthetics? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_FkwK24ZYY (So much nicer than their Dowland.) David - in hiding for mentioning S. and K. on the list ;-) -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Dear Matthias and All, I highly appreciate your discussion remarks on the liuto forte (and in general). Your critical remarks may be quite adequate, but for now they will not change my love of the instrument. I keep open-minded, and am particularly keen to directly compare the sound with lutes. I have to admit that I have not much compared it to "real" lutes, only to my own quite cheap renaissance lute (600 GBP from Early Music Shop in Saltaire UK on the advice of my then lute teacher how considered it good enough for a start), and a better Renaissance lute on occasion. I am an amateur, that's maybe the first thing to say. Having played the guitar for long I got interested in the lute because I listened to Dowland and other Renaissance music on the lute and loved the intense and rough sound much more than my (by the way: very good) guitar's, then studied the lute for a while (with my fingernails cut). Coming across the liuto forte I realized that, first of all, it is extremely flexible in sound. It can actually sound more lute-like and more guitar-like, dependent on where and how you pluck it (I would be interested if the people who say the liuto forte simply sounds like a guitar and that's it would insist on this impression in light of having realized that flexibility, which may need some practice and experimentation). I felt that if I plucked with fingerpads (thumb inside technique) above the rosette, the sound was quite lute-like, but more singing and sustaining than on my renaissance lute. I immediately loved that sound with renaissance pieces (more than when played on on the guitar, and more than when played on the "real" lute :-). As I have no ambition to be particularly original I went (and go) with my naive impression and love. Apart from this the liuto forte was easier to play - and I did not need to cut my finger nails, as simply turning the fingers adequately made possible to use finger pads. To love this sound is surely a matter of taste - and I am of course always open to my taste being better eductated... :-) Sor etc. also sounded good with this finger pad technique (modified it a little). Thus, more generally, sounding good with finger pads (in contrast to my classical guitar) is one of the really good things with the liuto forte. . Of course you can play it with finger nails as well... So, if I visit friends etc. and want to take only one instrument with me, I often choose the liuto forte, as I can - play Renaissance pieces with a quite lute-like sound, with finger pads or fingernails (even alternate according to my liking) - can play it as a normal guitar as well if I like, (piano, but and it can also be really loud if this should be of importance) - could play it as a 9-string guitar (if I could resp. had finally discovered how to get suitable sheet music) There's obviously no reason to "defend" the liuto forte, but for my amateurish purposes, I love it, first, because of its flexibility, and also because of the finger pad sound with renaissance etc. pieces. Warm regards, and thanks for the great experience with your contributions Franz -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
At players' meetings, I try to make players of HIP lutes (of several kinds), acoustic guitars (of several kinds), and wandervogel lutes (of several kinds) mingle in playing from a modern score, e. g. dances from Susato, each one playing a single-line part. One of the resulting effects that I aim at is that everybody accepts and appreciates the others as remote cousins of the same family. Besides, this kind of orchestra yields a lovely sound. We've never had luiti forti joining so far, but if one attends, he or she will be warmly welcomed. The LF is attractive for guitarists who don't want to change their RH technique (including nails). What I critisize, though, is the misguiding pretention that LiFi in lute tunings are modernized lutes, or that they are just as good as, or might replace, HIP lutes. What is modern with LF is that they have more volume, are easy to tune and easy to be kept in tune, particularly when single strung. What they lack, though, is the far-reaching tone of HIP lutes, and the rich sound of double courses over thin soundboards. To make a long story short, LiFi and HIP lutes are simply different animals. But there's no reason to deprecate each other. Mathias "Daniel Winheld" schrieb: > You mean Chaconne a son mauvais gout. > > >Ever played the Chaconne a Son Gout? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
You mean Chaconne a son mauvais gout. >Ever played the Chaconne a Son Gout? > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Ever played the Chaconne a Son Gout? (not by PDQ Bach, but should be) -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Sauvage Valéry Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 9:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: terli...@aol.com > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > lutenists: > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there > are players that can do it. > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: > Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... > Best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Valery, > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: >> Ok forte, >> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for >> the one he used). >> So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you >> can play with nails... > > Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really > awful > ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other > classical > guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it > may be > technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize > the > lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern > instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a certain > portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its > charm in > other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even > then it > doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the instrument > amplified > in even small ensembles. > > If you're going to amplify it, what's the point of using that type of > guitar > (unless you want to make the amplification part of the effect and timbre > itself, > a la George Crumb)? This is why I haven't used a classical guitar in any > of my > ensemble music for years. A steel-string guitar works very well > unamplified in > a small ensemble and the electric guitar has no volume limitations at all. > Contemporary composers would find much of interest in these instruments > and > modern classical guitarists would be well advised to think of them as > alternate > versions of their instrument. Unfortunately, classical players often > perceive > them as some kind of threat from outside the "official" guitar world. > > I haven't found this same problem with lutes or theorbos. The emphasis of > higher partials means that the sound on both can cut through quite well. > Play > close to the bridge and you can be heard most of the time. I've been > thinking > of writing a duo for lute and modern guitar. Maybe now's the time to > investigate the project. > > Chris > > > > >> - Original Message - From: "wolfgang wiehe" >> To: ; >> ; >> >> Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:05 PM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte >> >> >> >> I heard a "liuto forte" this year at our DLG meeting on >> "Burg >> Sternberg". Hmm, not louder than my g-lute...;-) >> Greetings >> W. >> >> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- >> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >> [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] >> Im >> Auftrag von terli...@aol.com >> Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 19:41 >> An: r.turov...@verizon.net; >> lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Hi, all. Clearly now is the time to put this out to the list: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6wcIOSC-u0 That's me on the right in the (unamplified) classical guitar trio. You can see my pinkie creepin' down to the soundboard. I played electric with pick for most of the concert. It was fun. But don't get on me about Peter's "archguitar." You'll have to talk to him about that. Best, Chris. >>> 12/20/2009 10:54 AM >>> Mark, --- On Sun, 12/20/09, terli...@aol.com wrote: > From: terli...@aol.com > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 9:30 AM > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of > irate lutenists: > Nope. I'm not anti-classical guitar at all. I consider myself a musician who chooses the right tool for the job. Much as I love theorbo or baroque lute, there's lots of music for which these instruments are totally unsuitable. Same with guitar. > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing > lutenists here have been exposed to here but there is a wide > variety of types of guitars and playing styles. > I totally agree! As mentioned in my last message, I believe classical players should even expand their horizons to include steel-string and electric guitars in a classical context. Nice as the nylon guitar is, this is such an easy way to extend the dynamic and tonal range of the guitar to nearly orchestral proportions. I have a master's degree in classical guitar from highly regarded conservatory. My main area of emphasis was on contemporary music. I've written a lot of music for it and continue to write for it. Nowadays I only compose solo music for the nylon-string guitar for the reasons outlined in my last message: a modern guitar is built for the purpose of bringing forth a full, rich sonic spectrum. Nice. However, much of this charm gets lost when other instruments with greater emphasis on higher partials are employed. So why use it in chamber music when other types of guitars exist which do bring out the higher partials? > Hauser style > guitar guitars are very good for playing some lute music. > Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain > touch...there are players that can do it. True. I have no problem with guitarists playing lute music, but I'm not very interested in doing it myself for the same reason I don't play Villa-Lobos on my 13-course. At the same time folks should keep in mind that the nylon-string classical guitar as we know it only came into being circa 1950. > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble > playing e.g Boulez: Le marteau sans maitre: Webern op.18, > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... I haven't really found so. Even in something like Takemitsu's "Toward the Sea" the guitar is outshined by the delicate alto flute. The soft alto flute tosses off these gentle waves of sound while us poor guitarists are fighting to slam out every note. I've seen these works performed with amplified guitars but things always sound so boomy to me. Already with Webern we may ask ourselves what exactly the appropriate instrument really is. The Stauffer-style type of guitar construction remained current in Austria well into the 1920's. Certainly the heavily-built nylon string instrument is out! I would love to research the status of the guitar in early 20th-century Vienna. There's a new idea: Second Viennese Performance Practice! > Best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; > Sauvage Valery > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Valery, > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valery > wrote: > > Ok forte, > > we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single > strung for > > the one he used). > > So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud > instrument you > > can play with nails... > > Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be > a really, really awful > ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other > than other classical > guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the > signal coming from it may be > technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed > to emphasize the > lower partials s
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I've heard the guitar part in Mahler's Seventh Symphony done with a steel-string instrument. On Dec 20, 2009, at 7:54 AM, wrote: > Already with Webern we may ask ourselves what exactly the > appropriate instrument really is. The Stauffer-style type of > guitar construction remained current in Austria well into the > 1920's. Certainly the heavily-built nylon string instrument is > out! I would love to research the status of the guitar in early > 20th-century Vienna. There's a new idea: Second Viennese > Performance Practice! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I am a lutenist who does have a satisfactory guitar- a 7 string, steel-string instrument that at least gives a suggestion of Orpharion timbre and is flexible enough to be re-tuned to Bandora intervals. Wonderful change of tone color; only problem is that ET makes it sound "out of tune" to my re-educated ears. Dan I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there are players that can do it. The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: Le marteau sans maÆtre: Webern op.18, Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... Best, Mark Delpriora -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Mark, --- On Sun, 12/20/09, terli...@aol.com wrote: > From: terli...@aol.com > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 9:30 AM > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of > irate lutenists: > Nope. I'm not anti-classical guitar at all. I consider myself a musician who chooses the right tool for the job. Much as I love theorbo or baroque lute, there's lots of music for which these instruments are totally unsuitable. Same with guitar. > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing > lutenists here have been exposed to here but there is a wide > variety of types of guitars and playing styles. > I totally agree! As mentioned in my last message, I believe classical players should even expand their horizons to include steel-string and electric guitars in a classical context. Nice as the nylon guitar is, this is such an easy way to extend the dynamic and tonal range of the guitar to nearly orchestral proportions. I have a master's degree in classical guitar from highly regarded conservatory. My main area of emphasis was on contemporary music. I've written a lot of music for it and continue to write for it. Nowadays I only compose solo music for the nylon-string guitar for the reasons outlined in my last message: a modern guitar is built for the purpose of bringing forth a full, rich sonic spectrum. Nice. However, much of this charm gets lost when other instruments with greater emphasis on higher partials are employed. So why use it in chamber music when other types of guitars exist which do bring out the higher partials? > Hauser style > guitar guitars are very good for playing some lute music. > Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain > touch...there are players that can do it. True. I have no problem with guitarists playing lute music, but I'm not very interested in doing it myself for the same reason I don't play Villa-Lobos on my 13-course. At the same time folks should keep in mind that the nylon-string classical guitar as we know it only came into being circa 1950. > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble > playing e.g Boulez: Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... I haven't really found so. Even in something like Takemitsu's "Toward the Sea" the guitar is outshined by the delicate alto flute. The soft alto flute tosses off these gentle waves of sound while us poor guitarists are fighting to slam out every note. I've seen these works performed with amplified guitars but things always sound so boomy to me. Already with Webern we may ask ourselves what exactly the appropriate instrument really is. The Stauffer-style type of guitar construction remained current in Austria well into the 1920's. Certainly the heavily-built nylon string instrument is out! I would love to research the status of the guitar in early 20th-century Vienna. There's a new idea: Second Viennese Performance Practice! > Best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; > Sauvage Valéry > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Valery, > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry > wrote: > > Ok forte, > > we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single > strung for > > the one he used). > > So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud > instrument you > > can play with nails... > > Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be > a really, really awful > ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other > than other classical > guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the > signal coming from it may be > technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed > to emphasize the > lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up > by other modern > instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very > effective for a certain > portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really > loses its charm in > other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played > with nails B) even then it > doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the > instrument amplified > in even small ensembles. > > If you're going to amplify it, what's the point of using > that type of guitar > (unless you want to make the amplification part of the > effect and timbre itself, > a la George Crumb)? This is why I haven't used a > classical guitar in any of my
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I think the quest for louder and louder musical instruments is inevitable. With larger concert halls more musical volume is needed. And as listeners experience more and more noise in their daily environments, they become less sensitive to lower volume music. And - in addition to the larger concert venues - as the ambient noise level in the halls increases due to rustling programs, coughing, talking and now ringing cell phones and beepers, more musical volume is needed to be heard. Sigh. . . But happily I can sit in my listening room at home and listen to recordings with the volume turned as low as I like. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Some videos of a type of liuto forte or lute-guitar from about 45 years ago or so. I believe it's from Armenia : http://www.youtube.com/user/peglegsam#p/u/92/uuSkaD30VW4 http://www.youtube.com/user/peglegsam#p/u/115/6Raw90U-AOQ http://www.youtube.com/user/peglegsam#p/u/89/YnbvozcGAnY GDR On 12/20/09, Mark Wheeler wrote: > Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" > strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. > > “It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed six > solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute > compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and > reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a ‘luito > forte’ built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite > playable!” > > Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? > All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded > many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. > > Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing that > some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that > huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the > 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the early > music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. > > Mark > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag > von Sauvage Valéry > Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 > An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on > romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a > > lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, > > that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... > V. > > - Original Message - > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: terli...@aol.com >> To: chriswi...@yahoo.com >> Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am >> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte >> >> >> >> >> I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate >> lutenists: >> >> >> I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have >> been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and >> playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some > >> lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute >> music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there > >> are players that can do it. >> The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: > >> Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, >> Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... >> Best, >> Mark Delpriora >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: chriswi...@yahoo.com >> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry >> Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte >> >> >> Valery, >> >> --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: >>> Ok forte, >>> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for >>> the one he used). >>> So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you >>> can play with nails... >> >> Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really >> awful >> ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other >> classical >> guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it >> may be >> technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize >> the >> lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern >> instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a certain >> portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its >> charm in >> other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even >> then it >> doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the instrument >> amplified >> in even small ensembles. >> >> If you're going to amplify it, what's th
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
O.K so you have BWV 995, 996, 997,998, and 1006a. That's 5. (with the prelude Fugue and Allegro being considered a Suite). What is the 6th? In my guitar literature classes at the Manhattan School of Music, I love to play harpsichord recordings for the students of 996,997 and 998. I also have them hear lute recordings,too! There are some guitar recordings eg. Stephan Schmidt, that get all the notes in the original key at reasonable tempos. In which case, why not play a 10 string guitar? Probably because of the same reason that a guitar student of mine was asked to find a lute-shaped guitar to play continuo in an opera. The pear shape is sexier than the figure 8...tell THAT to a Milanese fashion designer!! Mark -Original Message- From: Mark Wheeler To: 'Sauvage Valéry' ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:27 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. âIt is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed six solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a âluito forteâ built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite playable!â Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing that some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the early music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Sauvage Valéry Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: terli...@aol.com > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > lutenists: > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there > are players that can do it. > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: > Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... > Best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Valery, > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: >> Ok forte, >> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for >> the one he used). >> So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you >> can play with nails... > > Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really > awful > ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other > classical > guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it > may be > technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize > the > lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern > instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a certain > portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its > charm in > other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even > then it > doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute" strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist.. It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed six solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a luito forte built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite playable! Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence? All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute. Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing that some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the 19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the early music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths. Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Sauvage Valéry Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: terli...@aol.com > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com > Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > > I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate > lutenists: > > > I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have > been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and > playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some > lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute > music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there > are players that can do it. > The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: > Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, > Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... > Best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message- > From: chriswi...@yahoo.com > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Valery, > > --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: >> Ok forte, >> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for >> the one he used). >> So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you >> can play with nails... > > Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really > awful > ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other > classical > guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it > may be > technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize > the > lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern > instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a certain > portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its > charm in > other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even > then it > doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the instrument > amplified > in even small ensembles. > > If you're going to amplify it, what's the point of using that type of > guitar > (unless you want to make the amplification part of the effect and timbre > itself, > a la George Crumb)? This is why I haven't used a classical guitar in any > of my > ensemble music for years. A steel-string guitar works very well > unamplified in > a small ensemble and the electric guitar has no volume limitations at all. > Contemporary composers would find much of interest in these instruments > and > modern classical guitarists would be well advised to think of them as > alternate > versions of their instrument. Unfortunately, classical players often > perceive > them as some kind of threat from outside the "official" guitar world. > > I haven't found this same problem with lutes or theorbos. The em
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in itself, that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants... V. - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte -Original Message- From: terli...@aol.com To: chriswi...@yahoo.com Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate lutenists: I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there are players that can do it. The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... Best, Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: chriswi...@yahoo.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Valery, --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: Ok forte, we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for the one he used). So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you can play with nails... Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really awful ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other classical guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it may be technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize the lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a certain portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its charm in other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even then it doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the instrument amplified in even small ensembles. If you're going to amplify it, what's the point of using that type of guitar (unless you want to make the amplification part of the effect and timbre itself, a la George Crumb)? This is why I haven't used a classical guitar in any of my ensemble music for years. A steel-string guitar works very well unamplified in a small ensemble and the electric guitar has no volume limitations at all. Contemporary composers would find much of interest in these instruments and modern classical guitarists would be well advised to think of them as alternate versions of their instrument. Unfortunately, classical players often perceive them as some kind of threat from outside the "official" guitar world. I haven't found this same problem with lutes or theorbos. The emphasis of higher partials means that the sound on both can cut through quite well. Play close to the bridge and you can be heard most of the time. I've been thinking of writing a duo for lute and modern guitar. Maybe now's the time to investigate the project. Chris - Original Message - From: "wolfgang wiehe" To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I heard a "liuto forte" this year at our DLG meeting on "Burg Sternberg". Hmm, not louder than my g-lute...;-) Greetings W. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von terli...@aol.com Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 19:41 An: r.turov...@verizon.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar repertoire! . and is happy with finger nails. Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto forte hat occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago? I missed it. Mark Delpriora -----Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: Lutelist Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by Andre Burguete, that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the volume of the guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and has some interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and soundboard construction. Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the sound (negligibly). This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. But one really misses the overtone palette of double strings. It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is sick of the guitar repertoire
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
-Original Message- From: terli...@aol.com To: chriswi...@yahoo.com Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate lutenists: I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing some lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain touch...there are players that can do it. The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g Boulez: Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18, Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar... Best, Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: chriswi...@yahoo.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Valery, --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: > Ok forte, > we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for > the one he used). > So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you > can play with nails... Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really awful ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other classical guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it may be technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize the lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a certain portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its charm in other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even then it doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the instrument amplified in even small ensembles. If you're going to amplify it, what's the point of using that type of guitar (unless you want to make the amplification part of the effect and timbre itself, a la George Crumb)? This is why I haven't used a classical guitar in any of my ensemble music for years. A steel-string guitar works very well unamplified in a small ensemble and the electric guitar has no volume limitations at all. Contemporary composers would find much of interest in these instruments and modern classical guitarists would be well advised to think of them as alternate versions of their instrument. Unfortunately, classical players often perceive them as some kind of threat from outside the "official" guitar world. I haven't found this same problem with lutes or theorbos. The emphasis of higher partials means that the sound on both can cut through quite well. Play close to the bridge and you can be heard most of the time. I've been thinking of writing a duo for lute and modern guitar. Maybe now's the time to investigate the project. Chris > - Original Message - From: "wolfgang wiehe" > To: ; > ; > > Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:05 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > I heard a "liuto forte" this year at our DLG meeting on > "Burg > Sternberg". Hmm, not louder than my g-lute...;-) > Greetings > W. > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > Im > Auftrag von terli...@aol.com > Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 19:41 > An: r.turov...@verizon.net; > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar > repertoire! > . and is happy with finger nails. > > > Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto > forte hat > occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago? > > > I missed it. > > > Mark Delpriora > > > > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky > To: Lutelist > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by > Andre Burguete, > that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the > volume of the > guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and > has some > interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and > soundboard > construction. > Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the > sound > (negligibly). > This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. > But one really misses the overtone palette of double > strings. > It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is > sick of the > guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his > nails. > > http://www.liut
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
That's really the only problem with this musical list; snobbery. Not everyone who plays the Lute, or wants to play the Lute is a purist. Some people play just because they enjoy it knowing full well that they will never make a profession of it. This kind of attitude simply turns off those people investigating whether or not they actually want to go to the trouble of learning how to play the Lute. Unless it is the desire of some, that the Lute once more falls into obscurity it is our job to, at the least, not to turn these people away. - Original Message - From: "Mayes, Joseph" To: "Roman Turovsky" ; ; Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte __ ALL guitarists with brains get sick of their repertoire, eventually. I want to respect you, Roman - I do! I read your posts with interest and even glance at your neo-baroque compositions from time to time. But then you make some knuckle-dragger type statement like that and I'm back to square one. I suppoes it's natural to resent a more succesful, wealthier, and more accomplished cousin - but can't you keep that resentment off of the list? Joseph Mayes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4703 (20091220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4703 (20091220) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
You should be doing exactly the opposite: read my your neo-baroque compositions with interest, and glance over my posts from time to time. That would surely put my knuckle-draggers in perspective. Squarely too. RT - Original Message - From: "Mayes, Joseph" To: "Roman Turovsky" ; ; Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte __ ALL guitarists with brains get sick of their repertoire, eventually. I want to respect you, Roman - I do! I read your posts with interest and even glance at your neo-baroque compositions from time to time. But then you make some knuckle-dragger type statement like that and I'm back to square one. I suppoes it's natural to resent a more succesful, wealthier, and more accomplished cousin - but can't you keep that resentment off of the list? Joseph Mayes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
__ ALL guitarists with brains get sick of their repertoire, eventually. I want to respect you, Roman - I do! I read your posts with interest and even glance at your neo-baroque compositions from time to time. But then you make some knuckle-dragger type statement like that and I'm back to square one. I suppoes it's natural to resent a more succesful, wealthier, and more accomplished cousin - but can't you keep that resentment off of the list? Joseph Mayes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Hello Chris, my message was a little bit of humour... Here the ensemble iwas vocal (5 men voices) and one lute (or so called), so you can hear it even a "normal" lute ( I mean, non "forte"...) if well played. When I said play guitar is because during the concert, liuto forte sounds really like a guitar... Of course the image for the public was better with the form of a lute. But the two lutenists in the public, M. Forget (well known for his Weiss intabulations...) and myself, were really not happy with this lute, even the musician is a good one, but the sound of the instrument was really not satisfying. my opinion... V. - Original Message - From: To: ; "Sauvage Valéry" Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Valery, --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: Ok forte, we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for the one he used). So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you can play with nails... Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really awful ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other classical guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it may be technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize the lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a certain portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its charm in other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even then it doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the instrument amplified in even small ensembles. If you're going to amplify it, what's the point of using that type of guitar (unless you want to make the amplification part of the effect and timbre itself, a la George Crumb)? This is why I haven't used a classical guitar in any of my ensemble music for years. A steel-string guitar works very well unamplified in a small ensemble and the electric guitar has no volume limitations at all. Contemporary composers would find much of interest in these instruments and modern classical guitarists would be well advised to think of them as alternate versions of their instrument. Unfortunately, classical players often perceive them as some kind of threat from outside the "official" guitar world. I haven't found this same problem with lutes or theorbos. The emphasis of higher partials means that the sound on both can cut through quite well. Play close to the bridge and you can be heard most of the time. I've been thinking of writing a duo for lute and modern guitar. Maybe now's the time to investigate the project. Chris - Original Message - From: "wolfgang wiehe" To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I heard a "liuto forte" this year at our DLG meeting on "Burg Sternberg". Hmm, not louder than my g-lute...;-) Greetings W. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von terli...@aol.com Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 19:41 An: r.turov...@verizon.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar repertoire! . and is happy with finger nails. Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto forte hat occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago? I missed it. Mark Delpriora -----Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: Lutelist Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by Andre Burguete, that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the volume of the guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and has some interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and soundboard construction. Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the sound (negligibly). This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. But one really misses the overtone palette of double strings. It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is sick of the guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his nails. http://www.liuto-forte.com/ There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver Holzenburg, Luciano Contini et al. RT - Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" To: Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto Forte? (I must have > been out of the office for this one) > thanks, Dan > -- > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
It is important to stress that liuto-forte is neither wandervogel nor markneukirchen. It is not an uninteresting instrument, but it is really NOT marketable to the lute crowd (and I told Andre so unequivocally). Them guitar players should really be loving it, as it opens all the possiblities of lute literature for them, especially Bach (and we all know how hideous JSB sounds on classical guitar). RT - Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" To: "Roman Turovsky" Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 1:07 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Thank you, Roman- the web site looks to be very interesting reading for starters. Off the cuff impression- taking bits & pieces from the old single-strung Scandinavian/North European "guitar-lute", and the heavy 20th century bombproof East German and "Julian Bream" styles and refining the hell out them to come up with something easier on the eyes as well as useful. Still not sure if I want to let it in the house for more than a visit, but maybe I would go out on a single blind date with one just to see what's up. Dan It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by Andre Burguete, that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the volume of the guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and has some interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and soundboard construction. Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the sound (negligibly). This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. But one really misses the overtone palette of double strings. It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is sick of the guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his nails. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar repertoire! ... and is happy with finger >nails. ALL guitarists with brains get sick of their repertoire, eventually. Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto forte hat occurred at the Met Museum a >year or 3 ago? I missed it. So did I, but I had a private demo 2 days before. I thought that the instruments were uneven, some much better than others. Andre asked me to be in the demo, but being not much of a player (especially of someone else's music) I thought that Dan Swenberg should do it, and so the honor went to him. Andre himself is a very good composer for his instrument, sort of chopinesque neo-baroque. RT -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: Lutelist Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by Andre Burguete, that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the volume of the guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and has some interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and soundboard construction. Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the sound (negligibly). This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. But one really misses the overtone palette of double strings. It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is sick of the guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his nails. http://www.liuto-forte.com/ There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver Holzenburg, Luciano Contini et al. RT - Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" To: Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto Forte? (I must have been out of the office for this one) thanks, Dan -- > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Valery, --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry wrote: > Ok forte, > we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for > the one he used). > So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you > can play with nails... Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really awful ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other classical guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it may be technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize the lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other modern instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a certain portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its charm in other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even then it doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the instrument amplified in even small ensembles. If you're going to amplify it, what's the point of using that type of guitar (unless you want to make the amplification part of the effect and timbre itself, a la George Crumb)? This is why I haven't used a classical guitar in any of my ensemble music for years. A steel-string guitar works very well unamplified in a small ensemble and the electric guitar has no volume limitations at all. Contemporary composers would find much of interest in these instruments and modern classical guitarists would be well advised to think of them as alternate versions of their instrument. Unfortunately, classical players often perceive them as some kind of threat from outside the "official" guitar world. I haven't found this same problem with lutes or theorbos. The emphasis of higher partials means that the sound on both can cut through quite well. Play close to the bridge and you can be heard most of the time. I've been thinking of writing a duo for lute and modern guitar. Maybe now's the time to investigate the project. Chris > - Original Message - From: "wolfgang wiehe" > To: ; > ; > > Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:05 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > > I heard a "liuto forte" this year at our DLG meeting on > "Burg > Sternberg". Hmm, not louder than my g-lute...;-) > Greetings > W. > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > Im > Auftrag von terli...@aol.com > Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 19:41 > An: r.turov...@verizon.net; > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar > repertoire! > . and is happy with finger nails. > > > Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto > forte hat > occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago? > > > I missed it. > > > Mark Delpriora > > > > -Original Message- > From: Roman Turovsky > To: Lutelist > Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by > Andre Burguete, > that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the > volume of the > guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and > has some > interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and > soundboard > construction. > Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the > sound > (negligibly). > This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. > But one really misses the overtone palette of double > strings. > It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is > sick of the > guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his > nails. > > http://www.liuto-forte.com/ > There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver > Holzenburg, Luciano > Contini et al. > RT > > - Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" > > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > > > Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto > Forte? (I must have > > been out of the office for this one) > > thanks, Dan > > -- > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > -- > > > > > > >
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
My guess is that the producers of the event prefer the shape of the lute to the shape of a guitar. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: Sauvage Valéry To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 2:40 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I went this year to a concert with Ensemble Clément Janequin (Dominique Visse, counter tenor) and with Eric Bellocq, lute, or Liuto forte now. Ok forte, we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for the one he used). So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you can play with nails... V. - Original Message - From: "wolfgang wiehe" To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I heard a "liuto forte" this year at our DLG meeting on "Burg Sternberg". Hmm, not louder than my g-lute...;-) Greetings W. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von terli...@aol.com Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 19:41 An: r.turov...@verizon.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar repertoire! . and is happy with finger nails. Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto forte hat occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago? I missed it. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: Lutelist Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by Andre Burguete, that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the volume of the guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and has some interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and soundboard construction. Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the sound (negligibly). This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. But one really misses the overtone palette of double strings. It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is sick of the guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his nails. http://www.liuto-forte.com/ There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver Holzenburg, Luciano Contini et al. RT - Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" To: Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto Forte? (I must have > been out of the office for this one) > thanks, Dan > -- > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- --
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I went this year to a concert with Ensemble Clément Janequin (Dominique Visse, counter tenor) and with Eric Bellocq, lute, or Liuto forte now. Ok forte, we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for the one he used). So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you can play with nails... V. - Original Message - From: "wolfgang wiehe" To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte I heard a "liuto forte" this year at our DLG meeting on "Burg Sternberg". Hmm, not louder than my g-lute...;-) Greetings W. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von terli...@aol.com Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 19:41 An: r.turov...@verizon.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar repertoire! . and is happy with finger nails. Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto forte hat occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago? I missed it. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: Lutelist Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by Andre Burguete, that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the volume of the guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and has some interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and soundboard construction. Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the sound (negligibly). This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. But one really misses the overtone palette of double strings. It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is sick of the guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his nails. http://www.liuto-forte.com/ There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver Holzenburg, Luciano Contini et al. RT - Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" To: Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto Forte? (I must have been out of the office for this one) thanks, Dan -- > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I heard a "liuto forte" this year at our DLG meeting on "Burg Sternberg". Hmm, not louder than my g-lute...;-) Greetings W. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von terli...@aol.com Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 19:41 An: r.turov...@verizon.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar repertoire! .. and is happy with finger nails. Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto forte hat occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago? I missed it. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: Lutelist Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by Andre Burguete, that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the volume of the guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and has some interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and soundboard construction. Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the sound (negligibly). This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. But one really misses the overtone palette of double strings. It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is sick of the guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his nails. http://www.liuto-forte.com/ There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver Holzenburg, Luciano Contini et al. RT - Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" To: Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto Forte? (I must have > been out of the office for this one) > thanks, Dan > -- > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar repertoire! ... and is happy with finger nails. Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto forte hat occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago? I missed it. Mark Delpriora -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky To: Lutelist Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by Andre Burguete, that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the volume of the guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and has some interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and soundboard construction. Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the sound (negligibly). This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. But one really misses the overtone palette of double strings. It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is sick of the guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his nails. http://www.liuto-forte.com/ There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver Holzenburg, Luciano Contini et al. RT - Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" To: Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte > Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto Forte? (I must have > been out of the office for this one) > thanks, Dan > -- > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I love to play Liuto Forte with my finger pads with thumb-inside (no need to cut my finger nails which I use for playing the guitar, and now and then for LFf). Was sceptical what professionals would say (Andre himself seems not to like this way of playing), but was then quite convinced (regarding my amateut purposes) with the reaction of people who not only loved the lovely tone but said it was full, rich and really filled the room so to say. You can order the Liuto Forte also with double strings, gut, nylgut... but I have no idea how this sounds. F -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by Andre Burguete, that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the volume of the guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and has some interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and soundboard construction. Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the sound (negligibly). This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET. But one really misses the overtone palette of double strings. It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is sick of the guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his nails. http://www.liuto-forte.com/ There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver Holzenburg, Luciano Contini et al. RT - Original Message - From: "Daniel Winheld" To: Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto Forte? (I must have been out of the office for this one) thanks, Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto Forte? (I must have been out of the office for this one) thanks, Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Franz, No need to be defensive right from the get-go. Although some loud voices might not make it obvious right away, many of us on this list are quite open-minded and ready to give alternate ways a try. You also might be surprised to find that many of the "experts" on the list who speak with such confidence and self-assurance in all matters of Great Importance are little more advanced than yourself. Don't let them shout you down. I have to confess that I have never had occasion to hear or play a Liuto Forte in person, so I can't speak about it at all. If the chance presented itself, I would certainly give it a go. And I'm not looking down on your for playing one. If ya like it, go for it. (I'm doing a radio broadcast today of 19th century Christmas carols I arrange for solo theorbo. Is anyone going to sue me for being unhistorical?) As may be expected, lute players are fairly conservative in their ways. I feel like many players don't take full advantage of the range of colors and dynamics present in the regular lute. This is not easy to do, but to a certain extent, I think its intentional. Many players have a tonal ideal that is a "once upon a time in days of yore" type of thing. Fine, if they like it, but this doesn't reflect the historical record. Its very clear that olden players used many different types of setups and playing techniques, which would have produced a dazzling variety of tonal effects, but we hear only a narrow range of this today. (My Widhalm lute, for example, has fan barring, like the original. Play it by the bridge and its quite loud.) If our idea of what a lute sounds like is determined by the delicate "fairytale" way of playing, then the Liuto Forte is needed. If we look broaden our attitudes a little, we might be able to be heard without playing barogue guitar in the Vespers. Chris --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Franz Mechsner wrote: > From: Franz Mechsner > Subject: [LUTE] Liuto forte > To: "David van Ooijen" , "Lute list" > > Date: Saturday, December 19, 2009, 8:38 AM > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > im Auftrag von David van Ooijen > Gesendet: Sa 19.12.2009 14:01 > An: Lute list > > But I'm sure there are some > listers eager to start a discussion on > the liuto forte (again). > > > > Beware: Do not read if you only talk to > experts... I am an amateur and > beginner, serious and eager to learn... > but I am used to ask and > discuss until I am really convinced... > for the time being... > > This is certainly, and understandably a > problem for people who are > experts and want only to talk to experts, > but how can a democratic > discussion work with beginners and > amateurs being excluded? And after > all, more often than not expertise is the > art to err according to > rules.. > > > Ok. Thanks David. > I am trembling with fear... hope my dear > and admired lute teacher is > not on the list... but I have to admit > that I am owing a LIUTO FORTE (9 > strings). Because I love the sound, > especially if played with finder > pad (not appreciated by Andre > Burguete...) and now and then prefer it > to the renaissance lute which I also owe. > Two days before I played some > renaissance pieces on the Liuto Forte, > alternating with a actress who > recited some of Shakespeare's sonettes. > It was only a christmas party, > but not unserious... The reaction was > unexpectedly overwhelming with > MANY people being extremely touched and > excited by the lovely sound of > the instrument! (I did not ask for > feedback at all - but people came to > me and their joy with the music and love > of the instrument was > obvious!) > > I see what is going on the list here: > people - who are admeittedly > hundert times better and learned than I > am - launch extremely > fine-grained and sophisticated arguments > in favour of "original" (but > actually not so original) lutes, original > (but actually not so > original) gut or nylgut strings, > "original" (but obviously not so > original) interpretations... I have only > my sensitivity and taste, more > natural than sophisticated probably, but > who can say that it is in > every respect less worth than the > so-called experts' sensitivity and > taste? You cannot give you up and leave > everything to the pope(s), even > as a beginner and amateur... So what is > so terrible with the liuto > forte - in renaissance and baroque times > innovation was the rule... > imagine that in 200 years from now a a > discussion on a "jazz list" will > try to find out about the "historically > correct" interpretation of > Herbie Hancock in the manner of this lute > list... and actually I know > EXPERTS who appreciate at least the power > of tiorba forte in playing > basso continuo... > > I teach my students: question the experts > - what everybody beli
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Franz Mechsner wrote: > I have to admit that I am owing a LIUTO FORTE (9 strings). Congratulations. > what is so terrible with the liuto forte Nothing. > - in renaissance and baroque times > innovation was the rule... I, for one, am interested in the innovations of the Renaissance and Baroque concerning lutes. Rediscovering these, and getting better/different/more suitable instruments by these means interest me more than modern innovations in string, barring, amplification or the likes. I realise many rediscoveries of these days are in effect modern inventions, but at least the force driving these (re)discoveries is aimed at recreating a sound of the past, however elusive a task that obviously is, and not at creating a new, deliberatley modern sound. > tiorba forte in > playing basso continuo... I find my modest theorbo loud enough in appropriate settings. When stuck in a modern orchestra it's another story, but luckily I'm usually playing with period instruments. happy plucking David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
It's true, I can't afford to play an actual lute, but I've played oud and Cumbus enough to know I really don't like double stringing. Don't like the way it feels on my right hand fingers and don't like the chorus effect (which interferes with detailed pitch control). I now play lute music on a single strung gourd lute that I made myself. > Dear Doctor Oakroot and All: > I must say I couldn't disagree more with what Dr. O has said about double > stringing. It almost sounds as if he hasn't played the lute much at all. > All the > theory in the world will fail to convince me that this "very subtle" > effect > does not in fact make a huge difference both in sound and technique. > As for the liuto forte, if it's lightly constructed, double-strung with > typical lute tension, and fretted in gut, what is the complaint? I've > never seen > or played the instrument, so I'm just playing the Devil's advocate > here > Cheers, > Jim > > -- http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
Dear Doctor Oakroot and All: I must say I couldn't disagree more with what Dr. O has said about double stringing. It almost sounds as if he hasn't played the lute much at all. All the theory in the world will fail to convince me that this "very subtle" effect does not in fact make a huge difference both in sound and technique. As for the liuto forte, if it's lightly constructed, double-strung with typical lute tension, and fretted in gut, what is the complaint? I've never seen or played the instrument, so I'm just playing the Devil's advocate here Cheers, Jim -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
Yeah, I know all about chorus effect - but on an instrument as quiet as a lute, it's a very subtle effect. Not worth the trouble of double stringing IMO. (Of course octave stringing is another matter. That's audible, but mostly, I don't like it.) >> > >> Sonically it's pretty trivial - you can't really hear the double >> stringing unless the strings are out of tune. > > But they always are - at least slightly. Try googling "chorus effect". > > ...Bob > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
> > Sonically it's pretty trivial - you can't really hear the double > stringing unless the strings are out of tune. But they always are - at least slightly. Try googling "chorus effect". ...Bob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
Sonically it's pretty trivial - you can't really hear the double stringing unless the strings are out of tune. And must not add any volume or the chanterelle wouldn't be single. > "single strung" instrument, not a trivial difference between HIP lutes and > Liuto Forte! > Paolo > > > > >> "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >> > >> The LF modifications are not nearly as drastic. The main being the >> idea >> > >> of >> > >> gut frets absorbing vibration, while metal ones reflecting it. >> > > >> > > They offer their instrument with the option of either metal or gut >> frets, >> > > and either single or double courses. See their web site. >> > > David >> > The LF tension is so high that double courses on one is simply a >> recipe for >> > anatomic disaster. >> >> those LFs I was allowed to try in Salzburg in 2002 (with Mr Burguete >> watching and listening) had normal low tension. They were lightly built, >> single strung instruments, the main difference being that they were >> capable of conceivably more volume than HIP lutes. That's all. Nothing >> wrong with them, as far as I could see. >> -- >> Best, >> >> Mathias >> >> http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel >> http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com >> -- >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > ___ > 30 euro di sconto sull'abbonamento annuale, solo fino al 31/8! Cogli > subito la grande offerta SKY > http://click.libero.it/sky > > > > > -- http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > "single strung" instrument, not a trivial difference between HIP lutes and > Liuto Forte! well, I've strung my chitarrone with single strings, and I heard some people have their luiti attiorbati / arciluiti / archlute single strung. I don't mind that. -- Best, Mathias http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com > > > > > > "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > > >> The LF modifications are not nearly as drastic. The main being the > > > >> idea > > > >> of > > > >> gut frets absorbing vibration, while metal ones reflecting it. > > > > > > > > They offer their instrument with the option of either metal or gut > > > > frets, > > > > and either single or double courses. See their web site. > > > > David > > > The LF tension is so high that double courses on one is simply a recipe > > > for > > > anatomic disaster. > > > > those LFs I was allowed to try in Salzburg in 2002 (with Mr Burguete > > watching and listening) had normal low tension. They were lightly built, > > single strung instruments, the main difference being that they were > > capable of conceivably more volume than HIP lutes. That's all. Nothing > > wrong with them, as far as I could see. > > -- > > Best, > > > > Mathias > > > > http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel > > http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com > > -- > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > ___ > 30 euro di sconto sull'abbonamento annuale, solo fino al 31/8! Cogli subito > la grande offerta SKY > http://click.libero.it/sky > > > --
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
> "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >> >> The LF modifications are not nearly as drastic. The main being the >> >> idea >> >> of >> >> gut frets absorbing vibration, while metal ones reflecting it. >> > >> > They offer their instrument with the option of either metal or gut >> > frets, >> > and either single or double courses. See their web site. >> > David >> The LF tension is so high that double courses on one is simply a recipe >> for >> anatomic disaster. > > those LFs I was allowed to try in Salzburg in 2002 (with Mr Burguete > watching and listening) had normal low tension. They were lightly built, > single strung instruments, the main difference being that they were > capable of conceivably more volume than HIP lutes. That's all. Nothing > wrong with them, as far as I could see. The added tension is achieved not as much by the increase of wood mass, but rather by the DOMED curvature of the soundboard along the axis of the instrument. The general consensus is the LF can only be played with nails. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
"Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > >> The LF modifications are not nearly as drastic. The main being the idea > >> of > >> gut frets absorbing vibration, while metal ones reflecting it. > > > > They offer their instrument with the option of either metal or gut frets, > > and either single or double courses. See their web site. > > David > The LF tension is so high that double courses on one is simply a recipe for > anatomic disaster. those LFs I was allowed to try in Salzburg in 2002 (with Mr Burguete watching and listening) had normal low tension. They were lightly built, single strung instruments, the main difference being that they were capable of conceivably more volume than HIP lutes. That's all. Nothing wrong with them, as far as I could see. -- Best, Mathias http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
>> The LF modifications are not nearly as drastic. The main being the idea >> of >> gut frets absorbing vibration, while metal ones reflecting it. > > They offer their instrument with the option of either metal or gut frets, > and either single or double courses. See their web site. > David The LF tension is so high that double courses on one is simply a recipe for anatomic disaster. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
The LF modifications are not nearly as drastic. The main being the idea of gut frets absorbing vibration, while metal ones reflecting it. As I recall the LF barring sistem is basically baroque. >>> > >>> site; they may be exaggerating the level of their "innovation." > >> In fact, that's the general opinion. > > May I cite: > > " In particular, the LIUTO FORTE sounds extremely well in big halls and > has > a strikingly powerful resonance. Both of these features are due to the > application of a secret discovered by Benno Streu concerning the > combination > of woods used in the heyday of lute- and guitar making." > > What could that secret be?? So stiff a tension that it can only by played with nails. RT > best wishes > Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
Edward > I agreed, then found out to my horror a week before the concert that the > modern string orchestra numbered about 40, not including three > Double-Basses. > > In the reduced sections of both, and slow movement of the the Vivaldi > (which > only calls for Continuo and Solo Cello), the archlute (67/145 Harz) could > be > JUST heard. Needless to say, in the fast movements and tutti sections, the But here the conductor/orchestra/organisation is to 'blame' for an inaudible archlute. A single archlute was never designed to be heard in such an orchestra. When I find myself in situations like these, I make the most of the places where I can be heard, strum along in the tuttis and try to get a place in front where my notes have the most chance of being heard and, indeed, the instrument at least looks nice. Sometimes they give me a mic, but that can be hard as well, because the feed back you get is not always so good. Anyway, modern orchestras usually pay well. :-) David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
On Jul 31, 2006, at 3:59 AM, Bernd Haegemann wrote: > May I cite: > > " In particular, the LIUTO FORTE sounds extremely well in big halls > and has > a strikingly powerful resonance. Both of these features are due to the > application of a secret discovered by Benno Streu concerning the > combination > of woods used in the heyday of lute- and guitar making." > > What could that secret be?? I think very possibly it's the secret discovered about a hunderd years ago by P.T. Barnum. DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
I spoke with Markus Dietrich who visted a talk bei Benno Scheu. Actually it seems to be very interesting but not as sensational as the LF site makes us believe. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Bernd Haegemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Montag, 31. Juli 2006 09:59 An: Howard Posner; Roman Turovsky Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte >>> The LF modifications are not nearly as drastic. The main being the >>> idea of gut frets absorbing vibration, while metal ones reflecting >>> it. As I recall the LF barring sistem is basically baroque. >> >> site; they may be exaggerating the level of their "innovation." > In fact, that's the general opinion. May I cite: " In particular, the LIUTO FORTE sounds extremely well in big halls and has a strikingly powerful resonance. Both of these features are due to the application of a secret discovered by Benno Streu concerning the combination of woods used in the heyday of lute- and guitar making." What could that secret be?? best wishes Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte
The guitarish aspect of interpretation is mainly due to Oliver's playing. He is a guitar player pretending also to play lute. I am not sure which CD you have listend to. I seem to remember he recorded one on a lute. Actually I wouldn't care to much about that instrument if Oliver, Andrè and the others would make clear that it's a newly developed instrument. I think we are still on the way to promote the lute as a valued concert instrument and performances on a LF serve old prejudices. Just my opinion Thomas -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Montag, 31. Juli 2006 04:28 An: lutelist Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto Forte I listened to the Oliver Holzenburg CD. There is no information provided about Holzenburg's lute in the liner notes, but from the picture, it appears that the lute is double strung with gut frets. The sound is not bad, but does have a guitarish quality. It is certainly loud at the high end, but the bass end seems a little weak. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
