Re: eval statements in mod_perl
Without knowing your whole program, this could be a variety of logic
problems leading to this code. For example, perhaps $build{$nkey} is a
totally bogus value the first 2 times and hence your $evalcode is also
bogus the first two times -- and it's not a problem of eval at all!
This is unclear for the snippet.
At 10:52 AM 12/6/2000 -0600, Hill, David T - Belo Corporate wrote:
Howdy,
I am running mod_perl and have created a handler that serves all the
pages for our intranet. In this handler I load perl programs from file into
a string and run eval on the string (not in a block). The problem is that
for any session the code doesn't work the first or second time, then it
works fine. Is this a caching issue or compile-time vs. run-time issues? I
am sure this is a simple fix. What am I missing?
Here is the nasty part (don't throw stones :) So that we can
develop, I put the eval in a loop that tries it until it returns true or
runs 3 times. I can't obviously leave it this way. Any suggestions? Here
is the relevant chunk of code:
# Expect perl code. Run an eval on the code and execute it.
my $evalcode = "";
my $line = "";
open (EVALFILE, $build{"$nkey"});
while ($line = EVALFILE) {
$evalcode .= $line;
}
my $evalresult = 0;
my $counter=0;
#
# Temporary measure to overcome caching issue, try to
#
# run the eval code 3 times to get a true return.
#
#
until (($evalresult) || ($counter eq 3)) {
$evalresult = eval $evalcode;
$counter++;
}
$pageHash{"Retries"} = $counter if $counter 1;
$r-print($@) if $@;
close (EVALFILE);
I appreciate any and all constructive comments.
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eXtropia - The Web Technology Company
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RE: eval statements in mod_perl
This was a problem that I had when I was first starting out with mod_perl;
i.e., it wouldn't work the first or second times through, and then it would
magically start working.
This was always caused for me by a syntax error in a library file. In your
case, it could be caused by a syntax error in a library file used somewhere
in your eval'd code. I highly suggest running
perl -c library file
on all of your library files to check them for valid syntax. If all of your
library files are in the same directory,
perl -c *
will work as well.
I'm not certain for the technical reason for this, but I believe it has
something to do with the fact that syntax errors in the libraries are not in
and of themselves considered a fatal condition for loading libraries in
mod_perl, so the second or third time around the persistent mod_perl process
thinks that it has successfully loaded the library. Obviously, some
functions in that library won't work, but you won't know that unless you
actually use them. Someone else might be able to shed more light on this.
good luck,
Ed
-Original Message-
From: Gunther Birznieks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 3:38 AM
To: Hill, David T - Belo Corporate; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: Re: eval statements in mod_perl
Without knowing your whole program, this could be a variety of logic
problems leading to this code. For example, perhaps $build{$nkey} is a
totally bogus value the first 2 times and hence your $evalcode is also
bogus the first two times -- and it's not a problem of eval at all!
This is unclear for the snippet.
At 10:52 AM 12/6/2000 -0600, Hill, David T - Belo Corporate wrote:
Howdy,
I am running mod_perl and have created a handler that serves all
the
pages for our intranet. In this handler I load perl programs from file
into
a string and run eval on the string (not in a block). The problem is that
for any session the code doesn't work the first or second time, then it
works fine. Is this a caching issue or compile-time vs. run-time issues?
I
am sure this is a simple fix. What am I missing?
Here is the nasty part (don't throw stones :) So that we can
develop, I put the eval in a loop that tries it until it returns true or
runs 3 times. I can't obviously leave it this way. Any suggestions? Here
is the relevant chunk of code:
# Expect perl code. Run an eval on the code and execute it.
my $evalcode = "";
my $line = "";
open (EVALFILE, $build{"$nkey"});
while ($line = EVALFILE) {
$evalcode .= $line;
}
my $evalresult = 0;
my $counter=0;
#
# Temporary measure to overcome caching issue, try
to
#
# run the eval code 3 times to get a true return.
#
#
until (($evalresult) || ($counter eq 3)) {
$evalresult = eval $evalcode;
$counter++;
}
$pageHash{"Retries"} = $counter if $counter 1;
$r-print($@) if $@;
close (EVALFILE);
I appreciate any and all constructive comments.
-
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For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Gunther Birznieks ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
eXtropia - The Web Technology Company
http://www.extropia.com/
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Take23
On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote: OK, so this isn't really much of an announcement, since its still the same web site. Anyway, I'm renaming modperl.sergeant.org to take23.org. DNS should propogate shortly. Until then its available at modperl.sergeant.org (and will continue to be available there). Looks like DNS isn't working at all... I'm a complete DNS moron - is there anyone out there willing to offer me very a simple DNS setup on their primary and secondary servers? -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
Jim Winstead wrote: (of course, this only addresses scaling to a breadth of users, not scaling into the enterprise area. that just requires real marketing and hype.) I saw an article in the Financial Times the other day. Some people have written a "Fax your MP[1]" gateway (http://www.faxyourmp.org/). A quick GET tells us that their server is running php, though I seem to recall (reading about what they did previously) that they did some initial database crunching in Perl. :) The FT wondered why these handful of guys could put this thing together so quickly, when big institutional IT schemes seem to take forever to go nowhere at great cost (paraphrasing slightly). Cheers -- Tim Sweetman A L Digital "How many fates turn around in the overtime?" --- Tori Amos, "The Mythical Man-Month" [1] That's "member of parliament", politician representing your area - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANNOUNCE] Take23
Hi Matt, On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote: Looks like DNS isn't working at all... I'm a complete DNS moron - is there anyone out there willing to offer me very a simple DNS setup on their primary and secondary servers? Yeah, no problem. Can't do it for a day or so though, I'm just about to get on a 'plane. 73, Ged. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection (and a proposal!)
kyle dawkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 05:52, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: 6. Engineering The Perl community is made up of a truly eclectic group of people, which is an amazing strength. However, it's also an amazing weakness: I get the impression that very few programmers in the Perl community spend a lot of time *reading* books on software engineering and techniques thereof... and I'm not convinced about this. Although from my limited experience, I'm not very fond of them Hmmm, I'm not sure if you're talking about the programmers or the books. Ha. But seriously, I lose a lot of respect for people who don't continually study software engineering yet call themselves developers. Our craft is constantly evolving, and to ignore the material that's available to us to learn new techniques is completely irresponsible and it leads to some of the problems that we are bemoaning in this very thread. I admit I read these kinds of books fairly often, although because of the sites I do they can tend towards more general topics (Funky Business, Cluetrain Manifesto), but Extreme Programming and Rapid Development are two of the bibles. I have to say though, I've avoided the Design Patterns type books purely because of the C++/Java bias. That said, anyone who hasn't digested Damian Conway's OO Perl book is a total slacker. *snip* Dave -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Randal L. Schwartz) writes: "Gunther" == Gunther Birznieks [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gunther This is exactly why someone experienced in training (ie Gunther Randal/StoneHenge) would hopefully be the ones to take the Gunther torch on this. If there's anyone I would trust a Gunther certification from, it would be them. We've considered the certification route from time to time, but other than being a money maker for us (which isn't all that bad of a deal :-), I'm still not entirely convinced that the community of *ours* would demand certification in any distinguishing way. I mean, until I can demonstrate that people with certs are likely to get hired faster or make more money, what's the point? As it is now, good mod_perl people are hard enough to find that the jobseeker already has the advantage. Do it on line, for free (or real cheap)? OK so it'd be multiple-guess most of the time, but peer review of submitted coursework too? There are plenty of "intermediate" perl folk out there who only need the briefest of help in getting rocking with advanced perl and mod_perl. You're the trainer though... -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Re: [ANNOUNCE] Take23
On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote: OK, so this isn't really much of an announcement, since its still the same web site. Anyway, I'm renaming modperl.sergeant.org to take23.org. DNS should propogate shortly. Until then its available at modperl.sergeant.org (and will continue to be available there). Looks like DNS isn't working at all... I'm a complete DNS moron - is there anyone out there willing to offer me very a simple DNS setup on their primary and secondary servers? Sure, I can look after that. Shoot me a private email with the details. Through your registry, set your primary NS to fastmail.fm, and secondary to ns1.telstra.net. PS: You can also use http://www.granitecanyon.com for free DNS. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: how to setup the EMBPERL_MAILTOFROM?
I'm working on a e-mail form, and would like to use the MailToFrom EmbPerl module to do it. Can someone tell me what to add in the httpd.conf and please provide me with some code snippets on how to integrate this thing into the form. Thanks. For an example look at http://perl.apache.org/embperl/Examples.html#input_htm . If you have an smtp server running on the same host, your are done, otherwise you should add a PerlSetEnv EMBPERL_MAILHOST mail.foo.com to your httpd.conf. See http://perl.apache.org/embperl/Embperl.pod.3.html#EMBPERL_MAILHOST where are the other possible conf parameters are described Gerald - Gerald Richterecos electronic communication services gmbh Internetconnect * Webserver/-design/-datenbanken * Consulting Post: Tulpenstrasse 5 D-55276 Dienheim b. Mainz E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice:+49 6133 925151 WWW:http://www.ecos.de Fax: +49 6133 925152 - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANNOUNCE] Take23
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 09:20:55AM +, Matt Sergeant wrote: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote: OK, so this isn't really much of an announcement, since its still the same web site. Anyway, I'm renaming modperl.sergeant.org to take23.org. DNS should propogate shortly. Until then its available at modperl.sergeant.org (and will continue to be available there). Looks like DNS isn't working at all... I'm a complete DNS moron - is there anyone out there willing to offer me very a simple DNS setup on their primary and secondary servers? I can. I'll submitted this shortly: @ IN SOA ns1.slaysys.com. rbs.telerama.com. ( 230102 10800 1800 604800 86400 ) take23.com. IN A 194.70.26.133 take23.com. IN MX 10 194.70.26.133 Let me know if I need to change it, or if you want wildcard entries. My name servers are: ns1.slaysys.com 64.21.69.1 ns2.slaysys.com 64.21.68.33 ns3.slaysys.com 64.21.69.33 - Barrie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Take23.org DNS
Thanks for all the offers, I have it sorted now (should propogate some time later today or tomorrow). -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection (and a proposal!)
Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
At 14:07 06/12/2000 -0500, kyle dawkins wrote:
Ok, you're missing my point but that's partially my fault for not explaining.
First, let me agree: Java's "everything is an object" mentality sucks
balls. And yes, Perl's duality of functional/OO is really nice. Taking that
away is not what I am advocating... I think there should be the *option* in
Perl to disable certain features that make Perl a dangerous language for OO
development. First and foremost, the lack of true encapsulation is
disastrous. There is no concept of private data because instance data is
stored in a blessed hash (typically) that's open wide to the world. It makes
it tough to create a true interface/implementation dichotomy that is
important in the OO world.
I've got the beginnings of an interface/implementation thing going
with Perl 5, check out ex::implements and ex::interface. They're still
not 100% there because I haven't actually written any real
documentation, and there can be problems with pre existing AUTOLOADs
for the non 'utterly strict' version, but there's the beginnings of
something decent. At least you now get an error thrown at compile time
if you haven't actually implemented everything you promised to
implement.
But until 'my Dog $spot' becomes an assertion that $spot can only be
either undefined, or something that implements the 'Dog' interface, my
code is just an experiment. Albeit a possibly useful one.
That's because of the way most people implement their classes. Perl does
have a concept of private date (although it's not built into the language
as that) and it's actually fairly easy to get that. OO Programming with
Perl by Damian Conway has plenty of example demonstrating that.
All hail Class::Contract. Slow as a dog 'cos of all the tie magic, but
*utterly* fantastic otherwise. Again, fingers crossed for Perl 6
making 'tie' or its moral equivalent nice and fast.
And there's so much in Perl that makes OO so *nice*. For instance, I
have a container class (It's a row in a shopping basket) that can be
fully specced completely independently of the stuff it contains and
yet, because of AUTOLOAD and 'can' it can present itself as if it were
the contained object to stuff that is expecting that. Which reminds
me, I really need to overload the container's 'isa' method so that it
can return true to C$container-isa('Contained').
But then another problem arises: Because C{}-isa(...) throws an
exception, too much code ends up doing CUNIVERSAL::isa($foo, 'Bar').
Good, friendly polymorphic behaviour would have
C$unblessed_ref-isa(...) and C$unblessed_ref-can(...) returning
sensible values. Some sort of $random_ref-is_blessed() method might
be handy too.
And here we are, too late for a perl6.language rfc...
--
Piers
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Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 01:22:26PM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: "Gunther" == Gunther Birznieks [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gunther This is exactly why someone experienced in training (ie Gunther Randal/StoneHenge) would hopefully be the ones to take the Gunther torch on this. If there's anyone I would trust a Gunther certification from, it would be them. We've considered the certification route from time to time, but other than being a money maker for us (which isn't all that bad of a deal :-), I'm still not entirely convinced that the community of *ours* would demand certification in any distinguishing way. I mean, until I can demonstrate that people with certs are likely to get hired faster or make more money, what's the point? As it is now, good mod_perl people are hard enough to find that the jobseeker already has the advantage. I'm very open to being convinced otherwise though. I'd be interested in something like this. For a low price ($50-$100), I'd take a list of activities from your website, complete the activities, submit my code back to you, and let you grade me, and then send me some form of certificate saying "Certified mod_perl hacker" with Stonehenge and the famous merlyn signing it. If we could get Doug and Lincoln to sign off on the list of activities, the certification couldn't get more genuine than that. Having one of the great perl hackers, the creator of mod_perl, and a few other luminaries endorse the program would be a boon. By the way, does mod_perl have a "board of directors"? If there was a mod_perl consortium backing mod_perl (Merlyn, Lincoln, Doug, Stas etc) formally, I'm sure we could get some pretty serious notice. How many technologies have the actual creator as part of the certification process? It could only help. Even if someone open books the exercises, the certification would still be valid. How many times are you forced to write something without reference of any kind? Just my $0.02. If I forgot to add kudos to any one individual, I apologize. I don't mean to leave anyone out. JJ -- J. J. Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The people who vote decide nothing. The people who count the vote decide everything." - Josef Stalin "The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of tyrants and patriots alike. ... Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." - Thomas Jefferson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Smart installing (Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection)
At 07:12 AM 12/7/00 -0500, barries wrote: On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 12:30:53AM -0500, Marc Spitzer wrote: the only thing I would add is DBI and DBD:::CSV, No joins. Therefore not very useful. Actually joins are over-rated for most simple apps. It's very easy to make a calendar, address book and other common apps w/o joins. With that said though, DBD::CSV has some serious short-comings. Not the least of which is the lack of file locking. But because of the popularity of flatfile databases for newbies, that's why in our application toolkit we ended up making an abstraction that sits about more than just DBI -- native flatfiles, XML files, LDAP, SOAP, etc.. called DataSource with its own query language roughly similar in concept to Microsoft's ADO. Love it or hate it (most people who have used it do love it or hate it). you get a basic prototyping db and you can add other drivers as you need them. And the package needs to specify the version of gcc it was built with, so you can add dso's and/or perl XS modules. If you're doing that, you've graduated yourself to recompiling the whole kit and kabootle. That's probably true. One thing that would make things much easier for mod_perl is to get the DSO mechanism fully working. A lot of ISPs compile apache with DSO support, and so making mod_perl work well with DSO would help so that you don't have to ship a pre-compiled apache. Anyway, I think people need binary distributions really. Make is too complicated for a lot of newbies. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
Installing: I've installed mod_perl twice in the last month. The first time was on Solaris and was quite painless. The second time was on RH 7.0, and was fairly painful. Took most of a day of futzing around to finally get it installed and working. I ran into two problems, first the unrecognized version of apache 1.3.14, and second when I had downgraded to 1.3.12 the new auto-configure part of apache was bypassing the standard Configuration file which mod_perl had inserted itself into, so Apache was building itself without mod_perl. As several others have said here, there is work which could be done in this area. My suggestions would be: - easier install in general (big red button approach is always nice) - make it easier (clear instructions too) on how to configure apache with mod_perl and other modules. The current 'big red button' only works if you have no other modules or already have them configured. - Instructions written for someone who knows nothing about mod_perl, and possible very little about unix. This is a general problem for all open source What's so complicated about this: % cd /usr/src % lwp-download http://www.apache.org/dist/apache_x.x.x.tar.gz % lwp-download http://perl.apache.org/dist/mod_perl-x.xx.tar.gz % tar xzvf apache_x.x.x.tar.gz % tar xzvf mod_perl-x.xx.tar.gz % cd mod_perl-x.xx % perl Makefile.PL APACHE_SRC=../apache_x.x.x/src \ DO_HTTPD=1 USE_APACI=1 EVERYTHING=1 % make make test make install % cd ../apache_x.x.x % make install and slurping into httpd.conf: PerlModule Apache::Registry Alias /perl/ /home/httpd/perl/ Location /perl SetHandler perl-script PerlHandler Apache::Registry PerlSendHeader On Options +ExecCGI /Location and running: % apachect start to get started with... works out of box on most Unix flavors. Your problem is that you try to use the precompiled broken packages provided by distros. Try this command :) perl -le \ 'print "Build from source! Do NOT use mod_perl binary rpms!" while 1' _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://jazzvalley.com http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Smart installing (Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection)
at a time earlier than now, kevin montuori wrote: Aaron E Ross writes: aer the possibility of being able to untar one package to get aer mod_perl w/ persistent db connections, [c.] is very glamorous! agreed. but fundamentally impossible. what database are you going to provide persistent connections to? mysql? not on my solaris box you're not, unless you're going to include mysql in your distribution. besides, i want sybase. ok, so skip the database and use DBM files, gdbm's everywhere, right? again, not (standard, anyway) on solaris. so, package up gdbm too. Well, I see the problem, but ... when you install J2EE or WebSphere, you don't actually get DB2 or Oracle installed too. You do however, get an interface to a connection pooling mechanism, all you have to do is code it ( and maybe configure it ). I'm imagining the same thing. If you need a feature, turn it on. No CPAN, Compilation, etc ... Rather than having to install Apache::Session,DBI,DBD each time, it should be ready to go with whatever database you are using.. or not at all. Providing compiled version of DBD drivers is harder, but not necessarily in the scope of this project. Oracle provides their own jdbc drivers, not Sun and yet it is still a easier install. I agree that providing a complete working, just add water environment is impossible, but providing the groundwork for one is not. So let's start, as you suggested, with two goals 1) bundling working versions of apache and mod_perl 2) providing summaries and descriptions of mod_perl development environments. Aaron - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
J. J. Horner writes: I'd be interested in something like this. Certification is a quagmire. If it's done well, it takes a lot of work by the certification authority, and that makes it expensive for those certified. If it's done poorly, it's useless and is just a moneymaker for the certification authority. I think that certification is only really meaningful when you have too many applicants and need to give the employers a sense of how good the applicants are. That's the Cisco and Microsoft model, even though MCSE is a joke. I don't see a surfeit of mod_perl programmers. If anything, a stark shortage. I'd rather see us find some way to churn out perl and mod_perl programmers. For instance, release a beginner class on Perl and mod_perl and have local Perlmongers lead classes. I have my slides from the University of Perl, which I'd contribute to such an effort (they're pretty closely based around the Eagle book, and some of the details should be replaced with sections on Mason et al.). Nat - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
By the way, does mod_perl have a "board of directors"? If there was a mod_perl consortium backing mod_perl (Merlyn, Lincoln, Doug, Stas etc) formally, I'm sure we could get some pretty serious notice. Yes, it's called Project Management Committee (pmc) and currently the members are Doug, Eric Cholet, Ask and me. This committee is a part of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) group, which has pmc for every project hosted under ASF umbrella. _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://jazzvalley.com http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Smart installing (Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection)
"Aaron E. Ross" wrote: database abstraction and connection pooling = DBI session management = Apache::Session load balancing = mod_backhand?? data relational mapping = Tangram or Alzabo templates or whatever you want to call them = HTML::Embperl/Mason/TemplateToolkit ide = pick an editor with a few hooks to call make, install and restart I'd say that load balancing is too involved an issue to make it into a package, I'd leave it aside, as anyone actually needing it will be certainly building his apaches manually. And I would also leave the IDE aside, (although I think I have a great candidate[1]). IDEs are very personal things, and users are sometimes very attached to theirs ... so much that merely installing an IDE is sometimes an offence. [1] Having grown up in a cushioned, fancy VB 3.0 IDE, I still find both vi, emacs and textmode debug too harsh for me. So I've been toying with the early releases of Komodo (http://www.ActiveState.com/Products/Komodo.html) and I actually like it although its far from finished. Has anyone used/tested it? martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:58:48PM +0100, Stas Bekman wrote: By the way, does mod_perl have a "board of directors"? If there was a mod_perl consortium backing mod_perl (Merlyn, Lincoln, Doug, Stas etc) formally, I'm sure we could get some pretty serious notice. Yes, it's called Project Management Committee (pmc) and currently the members are Doug, Eric Cholet, Ask and me. This committee is a part of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) group, which has pmc for every project hosted under ASF umbrella. So, if we were to look for a mod_perl certification, shouldn't this group of fine, upstanding people be the ones to design it, and have merlyn administer it through his site, or maybe this group could form a subcommittee to do the dirty work (grading, signing certificates, keeping track of certificate numbers, setting up mailing lists, etc). I truly believe that what worked for M$ could work for us. M$ proved that the key to getting any technology accepted, no matter how inferior, was to create a group of people who could advocate, administer, and sell the technology. We have a great thing here. If we could get a cert that makes people, perhaps in stages, submit handlers for all of the applicable Apache response phases, as well as create content handlers that perform database connections, add neat headers, footers, and graphics, and create theme handlers, etc, we could certify a group of dedicated, knowledgeable salesmen, programmers, hackers, etc. If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . JJ -- J. J. Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] System has been up: 3 days, 10:14. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT]Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
At 14:47 06/12/2000 -0800, ed phillips wrote: Aristotle from the Ars Rhetorica on money: Money will not make you wise, but it will bring a wise man to your door. :) -- robin b. Forty two. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[certification] (was Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection)
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, J. J. Horner wrote: On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:58:48PM +0100, Stas Bekman wrote: By the way, does mod_perl have a "board of directors"? If there was a mod_perl consortium backing mod_perl (Merlyn, Lincoln, Doug, Stas etc) formally, I'm sure we could get some pretty serious notice. Yes, it's called Project Management Committee (pmc) and currently the members are Doug, Eric Cholet, Ask and me. This committee is a part of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) group, which has pmc for every project hosted under ASF umbrella. So, if we were to look for a mod_perl certification, shouldn't this group of fine, upstanding people be the ones to design it, and have merlyn administer it through his site, or maybe this group could form a subcommittee to do the dirty work (grading, signing certificates, keeping track of certificate numbers, setting up mailing lists, etc). Obviously that if this is going to happen, the teaching entity that actually gets paid for their time, will do all the work. Certainly we can "help" to define and fine tune the details at least to review things, but you understand that we cannot sign certificates, because we aren't the part of the whatever company which will do the certification. I truly believe that what worked for M$ could work for us. M$ proved that the key to getting any technology accepted, no matter how inferior, was to create a group of people who could advocate, administer, and sell the technology. It's all true, but Randal is right by saying that you need certification when you have herds of programmers and you want to have some easy (not always good) way to leverage them. The only reason I've suggested the certification idea is to do the the other way around to create the herd of mod_perl programmers, because we have a certification program. Of course I can be wrong, it's just an idea. If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . :) _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/ http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: shared mem [was: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection]
On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 04:24:24PM -0800, Perrin Harkins wrote: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Paul wrote: I was pointed to IPC::Sharable, IPC::Sharelite. I'll look at those. Take a look at IPC::MM for a shared memory hash implemented in C. Also, File::Cache is sometimes faster than the IPC modules. I don't think any of these solve problems like sharing sockets and file handles though. Why doesn't the BerkeleyDB module get mentioned whenever this topic comes up? I think it should. Tim. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
Matt, Everything required to make the module work ought to be included in the package or at least cross referenced to it. I have been having a problem in which I have had to manually resolve module dependencies on a Solaris 2.6 box. It went through several layers with several candidates for each layer. It's taken me a couple of months to get here. If you want corporate america to buy in to Perl, which seems to be the general gist of this thread, and not to loose any of the freedom you have in coding Perl, then you are going to have to find a way to make Perl easier to use. If it stays this hard, most employers are not going to let their precious IT staff devote time and energy to doing things in Perl that they can buy off the shelf elsewhere. It's really been an ugly process. My suggestion, I think that CPAN could make things a whole lot easier by simply asking the folks who wrote the module to link to the things it's dependent on. I also think that CPAN could make a good many folks lives easier by listing system requirements, when known. My point is that if things have been this bad for me, an end user (Joe Small Business Owner) would have given long ago and used php for his web site because he can probably figure that out. Matt Sergeant wrote: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Jeffrey W. Baker wrote: I haven't looked at AO or AxKit, but if I can untar either one of them and just get to work, that will rule. You can't, but thats because I believe in the CPAN model - use pre-written components. I don't believe shipping all those components in AxKit (and there are a fair number required) is the right solution. Maybe I'm mistaken. -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Jimi Thompson Web Master L3 communications "It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky." - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
At 07:56 07/12/2000 -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote: I'd rather see us find some way to churn out perl and mod_perl programmers. For instance, release a beginner class on Perl and mod_perl and have local Perlmongers lead classes. I have my slides from the University of Perl, which I'd contribute to such an effort (they're pretty closely based around the Eagle book, and some of the details should be replaced with sections on Mason et al.). That's where PerlMonth was cool. It's a pity that it disappeared. Maybe that stuff should go on take23 now. -- robin b. After all, what is your hosts' purpose in having a party? Surely not for you to enjoy yourself; if that were their sole purpose, they'd have simply sent champagne and women over to your place by taxi. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
at a time earlier than now, Stas Bekman wrote: Installing: What's so complicated about this: % cd /usr/src % lwp-download http://www.apache.org/dist/apache_x.x.x.tar.gz % lwp-download http://perl.apache.org/dist/mod_perl-x.xx.tar.gz % tar xzvf apache_x.x.x.tar.gz % tar xzvf mod_perl-x.xx.tar.gz % cd mod_perl-x.xx % perl Makefile.PL APACHE_SRC=../apache_x.x.x/src \ DO_HTTPD=1 USE_APACI=1 EVERYTHING=1 % make make test make install % cd ../apache_x.x.x % make install nothing.. but it's even better as a shell script, set the versions and go! -=-=- start -=-=-=- #!/bin/sh #TMPDIR='/tmp' TMPDIR=$1 #APACHE_VER='1.3.14' APACHE_VER=$2 #MODPERL_VER='1.24_01' MODPERL_VER=$3 if [ $# -lt 3 ]; then echo "Usage: mod_perl.sh tmpdir modperl version # apache version #"; exit; fi cd $TMPDIR lwp-download "http://www.apache.org/dist/apache_$APACHE_VER.tar.gz" lwp-download "http://perl.apache.org/dist/mod_perl-$MODPERL_VER.tar.gz" tar vzxf apache_$APACHE_VER.tar.gz tar vzxf mod_perl-$MODPERL_VER.tar.gz cd mod_perl-$MODPERL_VER # Add this arg to APACI_ARGS if you are on RedHat # --with-layout=RedHat perl Makefile.PL APACHE_SRC=../apache_$APACHE_VER/src DO_HTTPD=1 USE_APACI=1 EVERYTHING=1 APACI_ARGS='--enable-shared=max --disable-shared=perl --enable-module=most' make make test make install cd ../apache_$APACHE_VER make install echo "* Done! **" -=-=- end -=-=-=-=- Anyone have code to handle the config file? Aaron and slurping into httpd.conf: PerlModule Apache::Registry Alias /perl/ /home/httpd/perl/ Location /perl SetHandler perl-script PerlHandler Apache::Registry PerlSendHeader On Options +ExecCGI /Location and running: % apachect start to get started with... works out of box on most Unix flavors. Your problem is that you try to use the precompiled broken packages provided by distros. Try this command :) perl -le \ 'print "Build from source! Do NOT use mod_perl binary rpms!" while 1' _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://jazzvalley.com http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Digest List doesn't show subjects!!!!
Can someone please confirm if this issue is being looked at. The modperl digest list is often very helpful and I would like to keep using it. For at a few weeks now the digest list has been looking like this (no topics are listed): modperl Digest 21 Nov 2000 23:42:00 - Issue 256 Topics (messages 11182 through 11210): (null) 11182 by: 11183 by: 11184 by: 11185 by: 11186 by: 11187 by: 11188 by: 11189 by: 11190 by: 11191 by: 11192 by: etc. etc. Which kind of defeats the object of a digest list, can you please tell me why this is happening and if it can be fixed. (I subscribe to the digest list, because I don't have time to read all the messages on the modperl list, but I would like to be kept up-to-date on what is going on. So I normally just scan the subject headers in the digest to see if anything seems interesting.) Kees Vonk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Jimi Thompson wrote: Matt, Everything required to make the module work ought to be included in the package or at least cross referenced to it. I have been having a problem in which I have had to manually resolve module dependencies on a Solaris 2.6 box. It went through several layers with several candidates for each layer. It's taken me a couple of months to get here. If you want corporate america to buy in to Perl, which seems to be the general gist of this thread, and not to loose any of the freedom you have in coding Perl, then you are going to have to find a way to make Perl easier to use. If it stays this hard, most employers are not going to let their precious IT staff devote time and energy to doing things in Perl that they can buy off the shelf elsewhere. It's really been an ugly process. My suggestion, I think that CPAN could make things a whole lot easier by simply asking the folks who wrote the module to link to the things it's dependent on. I also think that CPAN could make a good many folks lives easier by listing system requirements, when known. My point is that if things have been this bad for me, an end user (Joe Small Business Owner) would have given long ago and used php for his web site because he can probably figure that out. I'm starting to come around to this now, especially with AxKit which relies on so many modules. I used to be a big fan of Activestate's PPM system (still am, only I don't use NT any more). I just wish it could work reliably on Linux, with so many different linux versions around. -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
"Bruce W. Hoylman" wrote: "Matthew" == Matthew Kennedy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: snip Matthew compiled enterprise app might only be 300Kb (and not just a Matthew "report queue manager"). And 500Mb of memory? That's Matthew tuppence in the server world anyway. This happens to be minimum numbers for working with a particular Application Server marketed by a well-known database vendor by the name of Oracle Corp. ;-) Could someone actually be using Oracle's Application Server! Matthew I think it's exciting to think what an n-tier framework in Matthew Perl might look like. IMHO, it should be more than just the Matthew outgrowth of CPAN's contents. I agree, but I should be able to expand and contract this middle tier monster in a very similiar fashion. Hey, I want some functionality, get it, configure it, install use it, derive from it, whatever. On the other hand, if I don't want, I can wipe it out without horking up the entire system. I agree with this. A pluggable architecture is nice. Incidentally, that's what the J2EE platform offers as well. For instance; I don't have to use JavaMail with EJB, or the Java Messaging System with EJB, or even JDBC with EJB either etc. Those modules would not necessarily have to be loaded into a JVM in order for me to use the rest of the framework. Sounds to me that this would not be too hard to do in a Perl context either. I think in general the work gone into J2EE's specification and rationale might be an excellent requirements model for a Perl n-tier equivalent. snip - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Nathan Torkington wrote: J. J. Horner writes: I'd be interested in something like this. Certification is a quagmire. If it's done well, it takes a lot of work by the certification authority, and that makes it expensive for those certified. If it's done poorly, it's useless and is just a moneymaker for the certification authority. I think that certification is only really meaningful when you have too many applicants and need to give the employers a sense of how good the applicants are. That's the Cisco and Microsoft model, even though MCSE is a joke. I don't see a surfeit of mod_perl programmers. If anything, a stark shortage. I'd rather see us find some way to churn out perl and mod_perl Isn't the word 'churn' copyrighted by Guy Kawasaki? :) programmers. For instance, release a beginner class on Perl and mod_perl and have local Perlmongers lead classes. I have my slides from the University of Perl, which I'd contribute to such an effort (they're pretty closely based around the Eagle book, and some of the details should be replaced with sections on Mason et al.). Yup, I agree with Nat, if everyone will contribute a little to convince others that mod_perl rules, we will solve a big part of the problem. You can use my slides/handouts as well: http://stason.org/talks/. _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/ http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 07:56:09AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote: J. J. Horner writes: I'd be interested in something like this. Certification is a quagmire. If it's done well, it takes a lot of work by the certification authority, and that makes it expensive for those certified. If it's done poorly, it's useless and is just a moneymaker for the certification authority. I see your point. I was just thinking that creating a program would give some public credibility to the mod_perl community, which would then allow an entrance point into the community, which would increase numbers, which would increase message coverage, which would increase usage, which would increase word-of-mouth, which would give credibility, etc, etc. I think that certification is only really meaningful when you have too many applicants and need to give the employers a sense of how good the applicants are. That's the Cisco and Microsoft model, even though MCSE is a joke. I don't see a surfeit of mod_perl programmers. If anything, a stark shortage. I could see a use for certification for when we have too few. If we convert the few uncertified to certified, then get the acronym (CMPP??) known, this could be a way to identify the mod_perl community and provide press coverage. I'd rather see us find some way to churn out perl and mod_perl programmers. For instance, release a beginner class on Perl and mod_perl and have local Perlmongers lead classes. I have my slides from the University of Perl, which I'd contribute to such an effort (they're pretty closely based around the Eagle book, and some of the details should be replaced with sections on Mason et al.). The mod_perl book is a very valued reference book for me. I rarely leave home without it, so to speak. I do see your point, and you are probably right. I feel we are in a chicken-egg situation here: we need people, so we need coverage and media, so we can get people. I hate seeing very worthy technologies die in favor of less worthy, yet more hyped technologies. We need to beat them at their own game, it seems. Thanks, JJ -- J. J. Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] System has been up: 3 days, 10:14. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Certification
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, J. J. Horner wrote: If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . Ask yourself this question: Are you in need of a mod_perl job? If so, I'm willing to bet that there are employers who would snap you up in a second. As has been said a few times here, certification is pretty pointless unless you need some distinguishing factor. With mod_perl, the distinguishing factor is that you're available! -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 07:56:09AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote: J. J. Horner writes: I'd be interested in something like this. Certification is a quagmire. If it's done well, it takes a lot of work by the certification authority, and that makes it expensive for those certified. If it's done poorly, it's useless and is just a moneymaker for the certification authority. Agreed. I think that certification is only really meaningful when you have too many applicants and need to give the employers a sense of how good the applicants are. I'd add that certifaction is perceived as being a hallmark of a "serious technology" by PHBs that don't know better. From our point of view, that makes certification a viable "marketing" tool: look this technology is sophisticated and advanced enough that there's a certification program for it. But the lack of demand for well done/costly certification amongst mod_perl programmers kills it right now. The crying deficit of us means that none of us needs to pay for certification to get the next job. I'd probably do it so I could maybe charge more and to find and help fill out areas in my knowledge that I've missed the classes in the scholl of hard knocks, but then again, maybe not. - Barrie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:52:01PM +0100, Stas Bekman wrote: What's so complicated about this: When everything goes right, and when you happen to have lwp installed and a tar that uncompresses :-). Seems like a good process to encode in a build_my_mod_perl.pl, FWIW. - Barrie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Strange problem with IE 5
Hello all, i'm trying to build a standard system: apache-1.3.14 with compiled in mod_perl-1.24_01 on RedHat linux 6.2 If i build apache without mod_perl everything works fine. But if build apache with mod_perl, IE 5.0 fails to load pages from the server. I can only see blank page without any error message. This happens with all html documents - even static. The record in access_log: 192.168.2.11 - - [date] "GET /file.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 8731 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0")" Everything is fine except the byte count after the response code - its is always less than the actual document size. I tried to telnet to the server and use HEAD, GET, etc. - everything works fine. Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. Escape character is '^]'. HEAD /file.htm HTTP/1.1 HOST: 192.168.2.50 HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 18:58:26 GMT Server: Apache/1.3.14 (Unix) mod_perl/1.24_01 Last-Modified: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 16:05:10 GMT ETag: "7e7-0-3a1ea9cb" Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 0 Content-Type: text/html What could be wrong here? What should i check? Expecting help - ek. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote: At 07:56 07/12/2000 -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote: I'd rather see us find some way to churn out perl and mod_perl programmers. For instance, release a beginner class on Perl and mod_perl and have local Perlmongers lead classes. I have my slides from the University of Perl, which I'd contribute to such an effort (they're pretty closely based around the Eagle book, and some of the details should be replaced with sections on Mason et al.). That's where PerlMonth was cool. It's a pity that it disappeared. Maybe that stuff should go on take23 now. I'd love that. In fact anything that anyone had waiting to go onto PerlMonth please drop a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and we'll get you published. (assuming that PerlMonth isn't going to resurrect itself) NB: Don't mail me direct - take23 is a group effort. -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:52:01PM +0100, Stas Bekman took time to write: Your problem is that you try to use the precompiled broken packages provided by distros. If I can jump... I must say that I *never* had a problem with Debian packages of mod_perl. Maybe RedHat packages have (don't known I don't use that), but Debian packages are correct for me. So on a Debian System, you just need to do : apt-get install libapache-mod-perl and tweak the configuration files. At least that's my experience. (BTW, kudos the the Debian maintainer which probably reads this list) Regards, -- Patrick. ``C'est un monde qui n'a pas les moyens de ne plus avoir mal.'' - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sharing sockets
Jeremy Howard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there _any_ solution to sharing sockets? My WebMail server keeps a pool of IMAP connections open (one per user) but it currently needs to create a connection for every user for every process that they use. This is awfully inefficient. I'm planning on creating a little Unix Socket daemon that keeps a single pool of connections, and make all IMAP connections go through the daemon. This seems like it should be unnecessary though--isn't there some way of sharing sockets amongst processes? Sharing them automatically is not standard; you'd need to use clone(...CLONE_FILES...) under Linux or rfork() under FreeBSD instead of fork(), and that would share all the file descriptors, including the sockets. The different processes would still need to keep track of allocation and who is using which fd, but you can do that over shared memory. It should be possible to do that to Apache just by changing the place where it forks off its child processes. Sharing sockets one by one is relatively easier; a process can pass an open fd to another through a Unix-domain socket (that's what lingerd, my Apache scalability fix for non-keepalive servers, does). The original process with the fd can then close it, or keep it around for later if connections are reusable. You'd need to write a daemon to hand out the fd's though; for the send_fd() and recv_fd() functions, you could take code or inspiration from lingerd (the code is at ftp://iagora.com/pub/software/lingerd/lingerd-0.91b.tar.gz ) -- Roger Espel Llima, [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.iagora.com/~espel/index.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection (and a proposal!)
On 7 Dec 2000, David Hodgkinson wrote: Development are two of the bibles. I have to say though, I've avoided the Design Patterns type books purely because of the C++/Java bias. you sure are missing out. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
perl's memory leak
Today I discovered a strange behaiviour of perl,
and I wonder if anybody can tell me what to do with it.
The matter is that perl DOES NOT REUSE MEMORY allocated for
intermediate calculation results. This is specially harmful to
data-intensive modperl applications where one perl process processes
many queries and can leak great amount of memory.
The example is below:
use BSD::Resource;
my $cc = 'a' x 2000 ;# alocates 20Mb for the right part and
# 20Mb for $a
p;
{ my $a = $cc.'x'; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
# and 20 for a
p;
undef $a; # deallocates $a
}
p;
{ my $b = $cc.'y'; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
# and reuses deallocated 20Mb for b
p;
undef $b;
}
p;
sub p {
print STDERR "used memory = ".(BSD::Resource::getrusage)[2]."\n"
}
# end of example.
Output:
used memory = 40772
used memory = 79804
used memory = 80068
used memory = 99676
used memory = 99700
##
Here I used BSD:Resource to measure consumed memory. Its result seems to
be correlated with the amount of memory taken by the process from the OS.
#
This was checked on FreeBSD 3.4 and 4.2 ; and perl5.00405 5.00503 .
Same things where noticed on Linux and probably on Solaris too.
Ivan
-
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Re: Smart installing (Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection)
I don't know about that, getting the correct version of perl, mod_perl. apache and all the preconfigured modules together and configuring cpan... as apposed to installing DBD::Postgres(uses XS), hell I could stick gcc postgres and open ldap in the package. krap I just gave my self more work. Here is the list so far: apache postgres openldap perl mod_perl libnet configure CPAN DBI DBD::CSV DBD:Pg BerkleyDB 3.x (openLDAP), this could cause a problem 2.x in in some linuxs glibc, I think berkelyDB perl module GCC gmake This gives you a nice base system and everything you need to add stuff to it. Now I have 2 questions for the list: 1: is this a good idea or a waste of my time 2: did I forget anything marc - Original Message - From: barries [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Marc Spitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: mod_perl list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Marc Spitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 7. December 2000 7:12 Subject: Re: Smart installing (Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection) On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 12:30:53AM -0500, Marc Spitzer wrote: the only thing I would add is DBI and DBD:::CSV, No joins. Therefore not very useful. you get a basic prototyping db and you can add other drivers as you need them. And the package needs to specify the version of gcc it was built with, so you can add dso's and/or perl XS modules. If you're doing that, you've graduated yourself to recompiling the whole kit and kabootle. - Barrie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Certification
If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . Ask yourself this question: Are you in need of a mod_perl job? If so, I'm willing to bet that there are employers who would snap you up in a second. As has been said a few times here, certification is pretty pointless unless you need some distinguishing factor. With mod_perl, the distinguishing factor is that you're available! This is an interesting thread. Just one point though ... just who is available? Are they any good? Have they any experience? Are they telling the truth? Certification may be an issue that deserves careful attention, before idiots go and try to implement mod_perl solutions, make a complete pig's ear and give us all a bad name. John Reid OpenConnect (Ireland) Ltd - You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ... ... but it does make a rather attractive novelty luggage tag. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.215 / Virus Database: 101 - Release Date: 16/11/2000 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Certification
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, J. J. Horner wrote: If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . Ask yourself this question: Are you in need of a mod_perl job? If so, I'm willing to bet that there are employers who would snap you up in a second. snip On the flip side, if you're an employer looking for a good mod_perl programmer, they're hard to find, and if you do find them, they're quirky. ;) I liked the idea of incorporating the local perl mongers groups into the teaching/training/advocacy process. I proposed it to my local group as a possibility. Perhaps it would help to get some standards though (similiar to a certification process) that the groups could follow. Perhaps areas to cover, standard tests, etc. Things that would lead a person to getting really certified when/if such a thing exists. Jay Jacobs - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
On 7 Dec 2000, David Hodgkinson wrote: [...] Do it on line, for free (or real cheap)? OK so it'd be multiple-guess most of the time, but peer review of submitted coursework too? Then I like mjd's "certification" much much better. Certification done right doesn't matter. Certification not done right is harmful. - ask -- ask bjoern hansen - http://ask.netcetera.dk/ more than 70M impressions per day, http://valueclick.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Strange problem with IE 5
ek wrote: Hello all, i'm trying to build a standard system: apache-1.3.14 with compiled in mod_perl-1.24_01 on RedHat linux 6.2 If i build apache without mod_perl everything works fine. But if build apache with mod_perl, IE 5.0 fails to load pages from the server. I can only see blank page without any error message. This happens with all html documents - even static. The record in access_log: 192.168.2.11 - - [date] "GET /file.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 8731 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0")" Everything is fine except the byte count after the response code - its is always less than the actual document size. I tried to telnet to the server and use HEAD, GET, etc. - everything works fine. Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. Escape character is '^]'. HEAD /file.htm HTTP/1.1 HOST: 192.168.2.50 HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 18:58:26 GMT Server: Apache/1.3.14 (Unix) mod_perl/1.24_01 Last-Modified: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 16:05:10 GMT ETag: "7e7-0-3a1ea9cb" Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 0 Content-Type: text/html What could be wrong here? What should i check? Expecting help - ek. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] You might want to check your error logs and post that. :) Matt - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [certification]
Somebody wrote: If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . You're way off base. Figure out the wife. I've never hired a "certified" engineer, and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks of shit. In fact, I've had great success doing exactly the opposite, and *hiring the wrong guy*. Take a person who's been writing compiler back ends for the last 10 years. This person is constantly pigeonholed by every headhunter out there into yet another compiler job, and he'd give his eye teeth to do something different. You hire him for something completely different, and he ends up being the most enthusiastic and productive person you've got, because everything's new and exciting to him. And believe me, folks, if he can write the back end to a compiler, he can figure out mod_perl. Or, I could hire Ferd over here, with a limp certificate from Randal saying he's passed some clever little test on the six most obscure ways to mumble. Uh, no thanks. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Authen::PAM
Has anyone used Authen::PAM. I can't seem to figure out the return values for its pam_authenticate interface. It is supposed to return PAM_SUCCESS but gives out a zero or a nine. Thanks, Alex - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Strange problem with IE 5
ek, Had various similar problems with IE 5.0 and 5.5. This was particularly frequent with the first version of IE 5 released, when installed on w98. BrowserMatch in srm.conf needs to be maintained for IE 5. I duped the entry for IE 4. This seams to fix most problems. Chuck - Original Message - From: "ek" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 8:13 AM Subject: Strange problem with IE 5 Hello all, i'm trying to build a standard system: apache-1.3.14 with compiled in mod_perl-1.24_01 on RedHat linux 6.2 If i build apache without mod_perl everything works fine. But if build apache with mod_perl, IE 5.0 fails to load pages from the server. I can only see blank page without any error message. This happens with all html documents - even static. The record in access_log: 192.168.2.11 - - [date] "GET /file.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 8731 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0")" Everything is fine except the byte count after the response code - its is always less than the actual document size. I tried to telnet to the server and use HEAD, GET, etc. - everything works fine. Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. Escape character is '^]'. HEAD /file.htm HTTP/1.1 HOST: 192.168.2.50 HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 18:58:26 GMT Server: Apache/1.3.14 (Unix) mod_perl/1.24_01 Last-Modified: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 16:05:10 GMT ETag: "7e7-0-3a1ea9cb" Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 0 Content-Type: text/html What could be wrong here? What should i check? Expecting help - ek. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Smart installing (Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection)
Marc, In order to be kind to newbie's, you will need to mention tar and gnu zip which don't come standard on some flavors of Unix. In my case Solaris 2.6 only has tar. Zip must be installed. Also, you are going to need to at least point them to documentation. Maybe we could make extra $$$ selling tech support for your bundle (a la Red Hat)??? The extra cabbage could go to buying ads. I think the goal of the "total installation" should be something akin to M$ Office if you are aiming at the corporate/business user. PHB's like things that they feel like they can control. I have no idea how you could idiot proof this, though, unless you set LOTS of defaults. Marc Spitzer wrote: I don't know about that, getting the correct version of perl, mod_perl. apache and all the preconfigured modules together and configuring cpan... as apposed to installing DBD::Postgres(uses XS), hell I could stick gcc postgres and open ldap in the package. krap I just gave my self more work. Here is the list so far: apache postgres openldap perl mod_perl libnet configure CPAN DBI DBD::CSV DBD:Pg BerkleyDB 3.x (openLDAP), this could cause a problem 2.x in in some linuxs glibc, I think berkelyDB perl module GCC gmake This gives you a nice base system and everything you need to add stuff to it. Now I have 2 questions for the list: 1: is this a good idea or a waste of my time 2: did I forget anything marc - Original Message - From: barries [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Marc Spitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: mod_perl list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Marc Spitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 7. December 2000 7:12 Subject: Re: Smart installing (Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection) On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 12:30:53AM -0500, Marc Spitzer wrote: the only thing I would add is DBI and DBD:::CSV, No joins. Therefore not very useful. you get a basic prototyping db and you can add other drivers as you need them. And the package needs to specify the version of gcc it was built with, so you can add dso's and/or perl XS modules. If you're doing that, you've graduated yourself to recompiling the whole kit and kabootle. - Barrie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Jimi Thompson Web Master L3 communications "It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky." - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: perl's memory leak
The output I get is
used memory = 0
used memory = 0
used memory = 0
used memory = 0
used memory = 0
I'm interested in how many leaks are possible in mod_perl
though because my mod_perl processes are getting bigger
with time -- about 200 requests is making the process
fatter by 1mb on the average. I'm watching to see if
they will max out around the current level of 10 mb per child.
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 07:53:16PM +0300, Ivan E. Panchenko wrote:
Today I discovered a strange behaiviour of perl,
and I wonder if anybody can tell me what to do with it.
The matter is that perl DOES NOT REUSE MEMORY allocated for
intermediate calculation results. This is specially harmful to
data-intensive modperl applications where one perl process processes
many queries and can leak great amount of memory.
The example is below:
use BSD::Resource;
my $cc = 'a' x 2000 ;# alocates 20Mb for the right part and
# 20Mb for $a
p;
{ my $a = $cc.'x'; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
# and 20 for a
p;
undef $a;# deallocates $a
}
p;
{ my $b = $cc.'y'; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
# and reuses deallocated 20Mb for b
p;
undef $b;
}
p;
sub p {
print STDERR "used memory = ".(BSD::Resource::getrusage)[2]."\n"
}
# end of example.
Output:
used memory = 40772
used memory = 79804
used memory = 80068
used memory = 99676
used memory = 99700
##
Here I used BSD:Resource to measure consumed memory. Its result seems to
be correlated with the amount of memory taken by the process from the OS.
#
This was checked on FreeBSD 3.4 and 4.2 ; and perl5.00405 5.00503 .
Same things where noticed on Linux and probably on Solaris too.
Ivan
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Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection (and a proposal!)
On Thu, 07 Dec 2000 11:33, you wrote: On 7 Dec 2000, David Hodgkinson wrote: Development are two of the bibles. I have to say though, I've avoided the Design Patterns type books purely because of the C++/Java bias. you sure are missing out. I second that. You should lose your anti-engineering bias just because of your anti-Java/C++ bias. Design patterns have nothing whatsoever to do with Java and C++, and if you ignore them, you ignore solutions to problems that plague every developer. Design patterns are fundamental to everything we do, even if we don't know it. That's not to say that they will somehow solve all your problems, but a responsible developer should learn about as many problem-solving techniques as possible. Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. :-) Kyle -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: perl's memory leak
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Ivan E. Panchenko wrote:
Today I discovered a strange behaiviour of perl,
and I wonder if anybody can tell me what to do with it.
The matter is that perl DOES NOT REUSE MEMORY allocated for
intermediate calculation results. This is specially harmful to
data-intensive modperl applications where one perl process processes
many queries and can leak great amount of memory.
When you will rerun the same code again (the same request) in the same
httpd process, the memory won't grow. There is no leak, that's the way
Perl optimizes memory allocation.
On the contrary, when you will rerun the same code in the same process,
it'll be executed even faster since the memory allocation for lexically
scoped variables $a and $b was done in the first execution. So even if you
undef them the memory is still allocated.
You can easily test it with httpd -X. See more examples of this kind of
testing with gtop and Devel::Peek in the performance chapter in the guide.
Of course if you don't like it, you can complain to p5p list :)
The example is below:
use BSD::Resource;
my $cc = 'a' x 2000 ;# alocates 20Mb for the right part and
# 20Mb for $a
p;
{ my $a = $cc.'x'; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
# and 20 for a
p;
undef $a;# deallocates $a
}
p;
{ my $b = $cc.'y'; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
# and reuses deallocated 20Mb for b
p;
undef $b;
}
p;
sub p {
print STDERR "used memory = ".(BSD::Resource::getrusage)[2]."\n"
}
# end of example.
Output:
used memory = 40772
used memory = 79804
used memory = 80068
used memory = 99676
used memory = 99700
##
Here I used BSD:Resource to measure consumed memory. Its result seems to
be correlated with the amount of memory taken by the process from the OS.
#
This was checked on FreeBSD 3.4 and 4.2 ; and perl5.00405 5.00503 .
Same things where noticed on Linux and probably on Solaris too.
Ivan
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http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/
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Re: Certification
When MCSE's were just starting to be issued, no one thought that they were important either. However, the PHB's who do the hiring said "Oo, you have a sheet of paper from M$ that says your ok. You're hired!" My point is that if you are trying to appeal to the businesses, please look at what has worked in the past for others and see if it can work for Perl as well. Perl needs to move out of the hacker market and in to the mainstream if it is to thrive. In order to move into the mainstream and take its rightful place with Java, it's go to have a perception change. I think that certification would certainly help. Where can I go to get mine? John Reid wrote: If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . Ask yourself this question: Are you in need of a mod_perl job? If so, I'm willing to bet that there are employers who would snap you up in a second. As has been said a few times here, certification is pretty pointless unless you need some distinguishing factor. With mod_perl, the distinguishing factor is that you're available! This is an interesting thread. Just one point though ... just who is available? Are they any good? Have they any experience? Are they telling the truth? Certification may be an issue that deserves careful attention, before idiots go and try to implement mod_perl solutions, make a complete pig's ear and give us all a bad name. John Reid OpenConnect (Ireland) Ltd - You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ... ... but it does make a rather attractive novelty luggage tag. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.215 / Virus Database: 101 - Release Date: 16/11/2000 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Jimi Thompson Web Master L3 communications "It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky." - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Certification
John Reid writes: [ cc list trimmed. ] jr This is an interesting thread. Just one point though ... just jr who is available? hey, i'm available. boston and cambridge only, i'm afraid. jr Are they any good? Have they any experience? Are they telling jr the truth? well, it's doubtful that certification really resolves these problems. all certification tells a potential employer is that someone has had exposure to the technology, not how competent they would be at providing solutions using it. even if someone were able to pass an examination, that's not the same thing as assessing a problem, deciding which technology will best solve that problem, then implementing that solution in some sort of timeframe. i think lie detectors during the interview might be the only answer, right after the drug test of course. cheers, k. -- kevin montuori support independent booksellers -- http://www.booksense.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Strange problem with IE 5
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, ek wrote: Hello all, i'm trying to build a standard system: apache-1.3.14 with compiled in mod_perl-1.24_01 on RedHat linux 6.2 If i build apache without mod_perl everything works fine. But if build apache with mod_perl, IE 5.0 fails to load pages from the server. I can only see blank page without any error message. This happens with all html documents - even static. The record in access_log: 192.168.2.11 - - [date] "GET /file.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 8731 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0")" what's in your error_log? Everything is fine except the byte count after the response code - its is always less than the actual document size. I tried to telnet to the server and use HEAD, GET, etc. - everything works fine. Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to localhost. Escape character is '^]'. HEAD /file.htm HTTP/1.1 HOST: 192.168.2.50 HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 18:58:26 GMT Server: Apache/1.3.14 (Unix) mod_perl/1.24_01 Last-Modified: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 16:05:10 GMT ETag: "7e7-0-3a1ea9cb" Why do you use ETag header? Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 0 No content? Content-Type: text/html What could be wrong here? What should i check? _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/ http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Certification
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:10:58PM -, John Reid wrote: Certification may be an issue that deserves careful attention, before idiots go and try to implement mod_perl solutions, make a complete pig's ear and give us all a bad name. I wouldnt be too worried about that. For better or worse, I feel that the complexity involved in getting the various Apache::WipeMyAss (as brian m. put it so eloquently :) configured and working together, kinda ensures that a mod_perl app, if built, is going to be of reasonable high quality :) Ajit - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: perl's memory leak
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Ivan E. Panchenko wrote: Today I discovered a strange behaiviour of perl, and I wonder if anybody can tell me what to do with it. The matter is that perl DOES NOT REUSE MEMORY allocated for intermediate calculation results. This is specially harmful to data-intensive modperl applications where one perl process processes many queries and can leak great amount of memory. This is known and it's not really a leak. Perl knows about that memory and does re-use it, the next time it needs that lexical variable. It's a performance optimization. Try running your code multiple times and you should see memory stay at the same level after the first run. There has been discussion about this on the mailing list which you can find in the archives. There has also been talk about changing this behavior for mod_perl 2, which Doug is working on. Anyway, if you just want the memory back, undef your lexicals after you finish with them. - Perrin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Certification
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, J. J. Horner wrote: If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . Ask yourself this question: Are you in need of a mod_perl job? If so, I'm willing to bet that there are employers who would snap you up in a second. As has been said a few times here, certification is pretty pointless unless you need some distinguishing factor. With mod_perl, the distinguishing factor is that you're available! (my apologies if this has already been said, I'm still catching up...) yes and no. having a certification program implies a lot more than just that there will be something employers can look at. I would expect that the real value comes from the fact that a lot of hard work has gone into a building a training program, which will by it's nature create more mod_perl programmers ... how many is subject to question, but if you can point prospective candidates at the list of hungry employers, then it should be fairly successfull... It's my belief that part of the reason microsoft has been so successfull is that they have made it so easy for schools/institutes to teach their material ... thus more students studying the M$ way, thus more folks "selling" microsoft solutions... ... anyone who wants to teach an NT course just asks microsoft for the curriculum... but wanna teach a linux course and your options are (or were, things may have changed) less clear, and you're more likely to have to build it yourself... given the quality and motivation levels of most schools/institutes/instructors the choice is clear... especially when they get to ride on the promotion bandwagon that microsoft has prepared... -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | What I like about deadlines is the lovely http://BareMetal.com/ | whooshing they make as they rush past. web hosting since '95 | - Douglas Adams - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] mod_motd
Am I losing my mind or is there a mod_motd for Apache floating around? I haven't been able to find it anywhere, but I'm sure I've seen it. (Checked Freshmeat, search engines, and Apache module repository) Thanks - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: debuggers
Perrin, In fact, I've always been coding from NT machines -- for my *nix servers, of course. Now the ActiveState people are building a cross-platform and cross-language IDE that integrates with perldebug nicely -- or so it seems. I'm actually starting to like it -- it's built on top of mozilla, so its a bit bloated and slow -- but I like it, just like mozilla ;) And, on top of that, it's called Komodo, and that means 'comfort' -- in Spanish, that is. All this talk about DDD is making me wonder if there is a suitable (graphical) Perl IDE that I can run on Gnome. If there's one, maybe I'll change my dev workstation from an NT box to RHLinux 6.1 ... Well, there's Komodo, for instance ;) martin pd: of course, in Spanish you'd say cómodo -- with a stress on the first o. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Smart installing (Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection)
Thanks for pointing that out, or I could just use compress. As far as the $$$ goes you need to spend money to start a business lets see if there is a market first. Another thing we could add is interbase to the list or break it up into 3 or more packages that are integrated out of the box, call it rev 2( with no rev 1 yet). here is what I see if I do that later: 1: apache/perl/modperl/dbi/dbd for all supported db and there client code/ldap client 2: open ldap/berkelydb 3: postgress 4: interbase 5: mysql ... more stuff here N: auxiliary package gcc/gmake and what ever else these components would all have to work out of the box with each other, I install 1 on my web server and 2 on my ldap box and it works or I install both on 1 box and it works. Everything should go under 1 directory /opt/something/(apache|ldap|postgress) etc. This will be a good deal of not fun work though. The way to idiot proof something is to not listen to idiots, this is where it goes and that is the end of it. Give people a list of where each default is web root, datafiles for interbase postgres openldap in a step by step pre install guide and have them start at step 1 and go to step N and you have installed the package(s) you need. marc - Original Message - From: Jimi Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Marc Spitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 7. December 2000 13:40 Subject: Re: Smart installing (Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection) Marc, In order to be kind to newbie's, you will need to mention tar and gnu zip which don't come standard on some flavors of Unix. In my case Solaris 2.6 only has tar. Zip must be installed. Also, you are going to need to at least point them to documentation. Maybe we could make extra $$$ selling tech support for your bundle (a la Red Hat)??? The extra cabbage could go to buying ads. I think the goal of the "total installation" should be something akin to M$ Office if you are aiming at the corporate/business user. PHB's like things that they feel like they can control. I have no idea how you could idiot proof this, though, unless you set LOTS of defaults. Marc Spitzer wrote: I don't know about that, getting the correct version of perl, mod_perl. apache and all the preconfigured modules together and configuring cpan... as apposed to installing DBD::Postgres(uses XS), hell I could stick gcc postgres and open ldap in the package. krap I just gave my self more work. Here is the list so far: apache postgres openldap perl mod_perl libnet configure CPAN DBI DBD::CSV DBD:Pg BerkleyDB 3.x (openLDAP), this could cause a problem 2.x in in some linuxs glibc, I think berkelyDB perl module GCC gmake This gives you a nice base system and everything you need to add stuff to it. Now I have 2 questions for the list: 1: is this a good idea or a waste of my time 2: did I forget anything marc - Original Message - From: barries [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Marc Spitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: mod_perl list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Marc Spitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 7. December 2000 7:12 Subject: Re: Smart installing (Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection) On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 12:30:53AM -0500, Marc Spitzer wrote: the only thing I would add is DBI and DBD:::CSV, No joins. Therefore not very useful. you get a basic prototyping db and you can add other drivers as you need them. And the package needs to specify the version of gcc it was built with, so you can add dso's and/or perl XS modules. If you're doing that, you've graduated yourself to recompiling the whole kit and kabootle. - Barrie - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Jimi Thompson Web Master L3 communications "It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky." - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Re: perl's memory leak
Hi Ivan,
It's not really mod_perl, but is relevant to people on the list I guess...
If you really play aorund with this, you'll find some interesting variations.
If I assign $cc using a for loop
my $c;
for ( 1..2000) { $cc .= 'a'; }
it's a lot slower, but only uses half as much ram
also if I do the assignment first and then add a char:
my $a = $cc; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
p( "assigned a" );
$a .= 'x';
p( "changed a" );
undef $a; # deallocates $a
p( "undefed a" );
my $b = $cc; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
$b .= 'a';
# and reuses deallocated 20Mb for b
p( "defined b" );
undef $b;
p( "undefed b");
sub p {
my $mesg = shift;
print "$mesg used memory = ".(BSD::Resource::getrusage)[2]."\n"
}
I get:
assigned a used memory = 40212
changed a used memory = 40212
undefed a used memory = 40212
defined b used memory = 40712
undefed b used memory = 40712
Which is more what you would hope to see right?
andrew
On Thu, 07 Dec 2000, Ivan E. Panchenko wrote:
Today I discovered a strange behaiviour of perl,
and I wonder if anybody can tell me what to do with it.
The matter is that perl DOES NOT REUSE MEMORY allocated for
intermediate calculation results. This is specially harmful to
data-intensive modperl applications where one perl process processes
many queries and can leak great amount of memory.
The example is below:
use BSD::Resource;
my $cc = 'a' x 2000 ;# alocates 20Mb for the right part and
# 20Mb for $a
p;
{ my $a = $cc.'x'; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
# and 20 for a
p;
undef $a;# deallocates $a
}
p;
{ my $b = $cc.'y'; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
# and reuses deallocated 20Mb for b
p;
undef $b;
}
p;
sub p {
print STDERR "used memory = ".(BSD::Resource::getrusage)[2]."\n"
}
# end of example.
Output:
used memory = 40772
used memory = 79804
used memory = 80068
used memory = 99676
used memory = 99700
##
Here I used BSD:Resource to measure consumed memory. Its result seems to
be correlated with the amount of memory taken by the process from the OS.
#
This was checked on FreeBSD 3.4 and 4.2 ; and perl5.00405 5.00503 .
Same things where noticed on Linux and probably on Solaris too.
Ivan
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...
Andrew Wyllie [EMAIL PROTECTED]Open Source Integrator
v.206.729.7439 __We can catify or stringify,
c.206.851.9876separately or together!__ perl-5.005_03
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Re: debuggers
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, martin langhoff wrote: All this talk about DDD is making me wonder if there is a suitable (graphical) Perl IDE that I can run on Gnome. Last time I tried them, I found ptkdb a bit nicer than DDD, mostly because DDD was kind of slow. I don't know how easy it is to make it play with mod_perl though. Apache::Debug normally just dumps you into the shell debugger. Maybe setting an environment variable would do it. - Perrin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dependent modules
I saw reference in some of the advocacy thread to having some way to list what modules are dependent on others. When I use CPAN (the module not the site) to install some modules it automatically installs the other required modules, but I assume this only works with modules that are on CPAN (the site not the module). If a module has a dependency on an item outside of CPAN shouldn't CPAN allow for a hook or something that can tell CPAN where to look for a dependency? I also notice that not all modules will auto install dependent modules, i.e. Apache::ASP. But most will. I suppose this is all documented some where, but since I don't have anything on CPAN currently I haven't really looked. Did I miss understand the comments inside of the other thread? Aaron Johnson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache::ASP problem with post data
the result of $Response- is also empty.
i had a look into the Apache::ASP source code and found this :
(line 843)
$self-{content} = $r-content();
tie(*STDIN, 'Apache::ASP::Request', $self)
if defined($self-{content});
this means that it's comming from $r-content() which i think is a
apache object.
(what the tie does , i don't know )
so looking further in the apache module i found that
sub content {
my($r) = @_;
my $ct = $r-header_in("Content-type") || "";
return unless $ct eq "application/x-www-form-urlencoded";
my $buff;
$r-read($buff, $r-header_in("Content-length"));
parse_args(wantarray, $buff);
}
it seems that the "Content-type" must be
"application/x-www-form-urlencoded" before we can get anything out of
the content() routine from mod_perl :-(
So i tried this
#Get posted XML query
$len = $Request-{TotalBytes};
$Request-{asp}-{r}-read($i,$len);
this will work always without taking into acount the content-type ,
which is text/xml
I don't know if there is any problem with doing it this way ?
If anybody has a clue on this , let me know .
greetings,
luc
Brendan McKenna wrote:
Hi,
The 156 bytes are your data. Since you're using Perl, you should be
able to access your data using $Response-content;
Brendan
:
: hello ,
:
:
: i'm working on a project that involves some XML-RPC system. The idea is
: to POST a XML to a ASP script which will than process this
: and return a XML back to the client.
:
: To do that a send sommething like this (output from ethereal dump) :
:
: POST /cp-bin/rc2.asp HTTP/1.0
: Host: linux
: User-Agent: libwww-perl/5.36
: Content-Length: 156
: Content-Type: text/xml
:
: ?xml version="1.0"?
: methodCall
: methodNameexamples.getStateName/methodName
: params
: paramvaluei41/i4/value/param
: /params
: /methodCall
:
: The problem now is , that in the asp script i get a Totalbytes of 156
: bytes but the content string is empty ?
:
: #Get posted XML query
: my $len = $Request-{TotalBytes};
: my $i = $Request-BinaryRead($len);
:
: #log input query
: $Response-Debug("recieved $len bytes");
: $Response-Debug("data [$i]");
:
: Does anybody has a clue where the 156 bytes are ???
:
: thanks
: luc willems
:
: -
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Innovation Centre Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: eval statements in mod_perl
Not surprisingly, the problem turned out to be a simple one. I was
using strict on the module that ran the eval. The code that was being
eval'ed didn't throw an error (nothing in $@) but it did show the
warnings in the error log. Sorry to trouble you, and thanks for the
responses that I did get.
David Hill
-Original Message-
From: Ed Park [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 3:08 AM
To: Hill, David T - Belo Corporate; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: eval statements in mod_perl
This was a problem that I had when I was first starting out with mod_perl;
i.e., it wouldn't work the first or second times through, and then it would
magically start working.
This was always caused for me by a syntax error in a library file. In your
case, it could be caused by a syntax error in a library file used somewhere
in your eval'd code. I highly suggest running
perl -c library file
on all of your library files to check them for valid syntax. If all of your
library files are in the same directory,
perl -c *
will work as well.
I'm not certain for the technical reason for this, but I believe it has
something to do with the fact that syntax errors in the libraries are not in
and of themselves considered a fatal condition for loading libraries in
mod_perl, so the second or third time around the persistent mod_perl process
thinks that it has successfully loaded the library. Obviously, some
functions in that library won't work, but you won't know that unless you
actually use them. Someone else might be able to shed more light on this.
good luck,
Ed
At 10:52 AM 12/6/2000 -0600, Hill, David T - Belo Corporate wrote:
Howdy,
I am running mod_perl and have created a handler that serves all
the
pages for our intranet. In this handler I load perl programs from file
into
a string and run eval on the string (not in a block). The problem is that
for any session the code doesn't work the first or second time, then it
works fine. Is this a caching issue or compile-time vs. run-time issues?
I
am sure this is a simple fix. What am I missing?
Here is the nasty part (don't throw stones :) So that we can
develop, I put the eval in a loop that tries it until it returns true or
runs 3 times. I can't obviously leave it this way. Any suggestions? Here
is the relevant chunk of code:
# Expect perl code. Run an eval on the code and execute it.
my $evalcode = "";
my $line = "";
open (EVALFILE, $build{"$nkey"});
while ($line = EVALFILE) {
$evalcode .= $line;
}
my $evalresult = 0;
my $counter=0;
#
# Temporary measure to overcome caching issue, try
to
#
# run the eval code 3 times to get a true return.
#
#
until (($evalresult) || ($counter eq 3)) {
$evalresult = eval $evalcode;
$counter++;
}
$pageHash{"Retries"} = $counter if $counter 1;
$r-print($@) if $@;
close (EVALFILE);
I appreciate any and all constructive comments.
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Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Robin Berjon wrote: At 07:56 07/12/2000 -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote: I'd rather see us find some way to churn out perl and mod_perl programmers. For instance, release a beginner class on Perl and mod_perl and have local Perlmongers lead classes. I have my slides from the University of Perl, which I'd contribute to such an effort (they're pretty closely based around the Eagle book, and some of the details should be replaced with sections on Mason et al.). That's where PerlMonth was cool. It's a pity that it disappeared. Maybe that stuff should go on take23 now. I'd love that. In fact anything that anyone had waiting to go onto PerlMonth please drop a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and we'll get you published. (assuming that PerlMonth isn't going to resurrect itself) Actually its kinda has been resurrected. Or it will be on the upcoming monday. There are a lot of mod_perl articles on PelrMonth and it will continue. Next issue has an article by Stas and Gerald Richter. As far as articles are concerned perlmonth.com has about 20 or so mod_perl related articles. I know I've kinda been absent for some time. And I want to publicly apologize to the readers and the writers. But the next issue will be out upcoming monday. I am also contemplating on starting www.apachemonth.com, and looking for someone to possibly write mod_perl related articles on such topics like, handling different phases of Apache with mod_perl, writing PerlTransHandlers, explanations on *Handlers, stuff that is more closely related to Apache, rather than templating solutions and such, which serve better under PerlMonth. If anyone is interested in that please drop me a line or two. - Baiju Thakkar http://www.perlmonth.comhttp://www.linuxmonth.com Just use Perl; #!/boot/linux - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
This has been a really interesting thread. I would like to contribute my own experiences as I am currently sitting on both sides of the fence. In my spare time, what little there is, I operate a web hosting service for NZ Christian churches, organisations and ministries. This endeavour also operates as a ministry and hence comes under some very real constraints, the biggest being a very low budget. I can not afford to run top-end servers so must make the best of fairly modest equipment. I can not afford to hire programmers, so I do all the system admin and programming myself. I opted for Perl as I was reasonably comfortable with it and wanted an environment where I could build what I needed quickly and it would be relatively easy to look after. In the early days, I used to pull my hair out trying to get each new release of apache and mod_perl running, the problem was usually compounded by adding SSL. The arrival of Ralph's mod_ssl and the more recent apache and mod_perl distributions have helped heaps. What do I do with mod_perl, at this time it serves 3 purposes 1. It allows me to use my PostgreSQL database for web authentication (AuthDBI), 2. It offers database connection persistence, 3. It operates as a CGI accelerator. I haven't needed to work directly with mod_perl but have some things I would like to use it for next year. But my own site is only one of 150 odd on the server and I am the only one using mod_perl, a couple of sites use PHP, why ? The simple answer is - I can. It is my environment and I have control over the whole shooting match, I can fiddle the apache config as necessary, I can easily add perl .pm's as needed. I am technically competent and used to working with non-trivial technologies. I work in the IT department of one of NZ's Universities, I have been here for years and consequently have watched and been involved with technologies that have come and gone. The latest area that our applications people are working with is using the web to deliver information from and interacting with our student management system, a large Ingres Database. The current application is run as a CGI and is written as a monolithic perl programme. Simply put, it is a disaster. The people who wrote it, learned perl as they went, and being fair to them, it works. Their architecture enabled them to add functions reasonably quickly, but the application does not scale. They are not using any database connection persistence at all and multiple concurrent session very quickly kill the web server, a high-end Compaq alpha. This application has seen us through the last 12 months but is hopefully to be replaced. With what ? Well, it would seem that no amount of arguing by the systems programmers or myself is going to be successful in getting them to continue with perl, but in a mod_perl environment. They are going to go the Java way, the reasons have all been stated in this thread before; Market hype, its an expensive solution so it must be good, its a cool new technology, you can't get good perl programmers, its what is being used by everyone else, we don't understand mod_perl ( they don't understand the java solution either ), we can buy the business logic we don't have to build it ... I like the perl/mod_perl solution, it works well for me, I believe it is also an appropriate technology for solving enterprise problems. The biggest hurdle we have faced in trying to get it considered has been market perception. If we had been able to find recognised or well-known enterprise/corporate/large site implementations to use as reference sites, it might have helped. To be able to say that site X uses a mod-perl solution and they are using Ingres/Oracle/Sybase or whatever and getting umpteen thousand hits a day gives the technology creditability. The Microsoft and Java marketing machines have given their technologies credibility (whether they deserve it or not is irrelevant). The decision has been made, unfortunately, so much of this is now water under the bridge but a list of reference sites might help others construct better cases for their management. -- Glen Eustace, Systems Engineer - Networking. Information Technology Services, Turitea, Massey University, Palmerston North, NZ. Ph: +64 6 350 5799 x 2707, Fax: +64 6 350 5607 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: debuggers
Perrin Harkins wrote: I don't know how easy it is to make it play with mod_perl though. Apache::Debug normally just dumps you into the shell debugger. Maybe setting an environment variable would do it. I've always considered mod_perl to be completely debugger-unfriendly. That's why I write modules that I can test from a standard script, and then call those modules from Embperl pages or Registry scripts. I wonder how do those hardcore guys that develop using handlers debug. Mhhh. They must write 'perlfect' code, I guess, and/or understand those cryptic debuggers ... martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Jimi Thompson wrote: Everything required to make the module work ought to be included in the package or at least cross referenced to it. Newer versions of CPAN resolve dependencies for you, and you can always make a Bundle:: for your project. - Perrin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [certification]
I agree with Eric, for consultants you should focus on skills and brains and for employees you should focus on BRAINS. They will be there long enough to pick up the skills and pay you back for the time you spent training them. Remember smart people learn fast so it is not that much time spent on training. Also this will build loyalty and that translates into lower turnover. marc ps I have never done any hiring in my life. - Original Message - From: Eric Strovink [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 7. December 2000 12:52 Subject: Re: [certification] Somebody wrote: If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . You're way off base. Figure out the wife. I've never hired a "certified" engineer, and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks of shit. In fact, I've had great success doing exactly the opposite, and *hiring the wrong guy*. Take a person who's been writing compiler back ends for the last 10 years. This person is constantly pigeonholed by every headhunter out there into yet another compiler job, and he'd give his eye teeth to do something different. You hire him for something completely different, and he ends up being the most enthusiastic and productive person you've got, because everything's new and exciting to him. And believe me, folks, if he can write the back end to a compiler, he can figure out mod_perl. Or, I could hire Ferd over here, with a limp certificate from Randal saying he's passed some clever little test on the six most obscure ways to mumble. Uh, no thanks. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [certification]
Eric, You fail to understand that while you are probably a geeks dream boss, you are not the average PHB. Heck, your hair is probably limp ;). The idea here is to gain acceptance and even status with the PHB. PHB's like paper. It doesn't matter if its a useful piece of paper or not (MCSE's are a PRIME example of a useless paper - as are many college degrees). They live for paper. Its job security for them. It makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside. It also allows them to cover their butts should anything go wrong with said hire-ee. Eric Strovink wrote: Somebody wrote: If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . You're way off base. Figure out the wife. I've never hired a "certified" engineer, and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks of shit. In fact, I've had great success doing exactly the opposite, and *hiring the wrong guy*. Take a person who's been writing compiler back ends for the last 10 years. This person is constantly pigeonholed by every headhunter out there into yet another compiler job, and he'd give his eye teeth to do something different. You hire him for something completely different, and he ends up being the most enthusiastic and productive person you've got, because everything's new and exciting to him. And believe me, folks, if he can write the back end to a compiler, he can figure out mod_perl. Or, I could hire Ferd over here, with a limp certificate from Randal saying he's passed some clever little test on the six most obscure ways to mumble. Uh, no thanks. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Jimi Thompson Web Master L3 communications "It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky." - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: debuggers
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, martin langhoff wrote: I've always considered mod_perl to be completely debugger-unfriendly. That's why I write modules that I can test from a standard script, and then call those modules from Embperl pages or Registry scripts. Apache::Debug works. It's almost exactly the same as debugging a standard script. I wonder how do those hardcore guys that develop using handlers debug. Mhhh. They must write 'perlfect' code, I guess, and/or understand those cryptic debuggers ... Do not be afraid of the command line... The Perl debugging shell is really not so hard if you give it a chance. I've taught a number of people here how to use it. I'm always amazed that more people don't use tools like the debugger and the profiler. They're life savers. - Perrin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANNOUNCE] Apache::ASP v2.07
On Dec 06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] contorted a few electrons to say... Joshua Hey, Joshua Joshua The latest Apache::ASP 2.07 has made its way into CPAN, and is Joshua also available at: Just thought i'd say a BIG THANKS to Joshua for Apache::ASP. Its been a great help in developing cross platform web products. Its been rather stable Joshua is usually pretty responsive when you need some help. jr -- Joel W. Reed412-257-3881 --All the simple programs have been written. PGP signature
Re: [certification]
--On Thursday, December 07, 2000 12:52:44 PM -0500 Eric Strovink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Somebody wrote: If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . You're way off base. Figure out the wife. I've never hired a "certified" engineer, and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks of shit. I'd have to concur. A certificate means you can pass a test, it doesn't mean you can code your way out of wet paper bag. I consider myself a very good coder, but I don't do well on true/false, multiple choice, and similar kinds of tests. I've also done hiring, and in my previous job, I regularly did peer interviews. I can discover far more about a person's abilities by talking to him or her for a few minutes and exploring some hypothetical ideas and/or programming scenarios or just talking about stuff they've written. -- Rob _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ /\_\_\_\_\/\_\ /\_\_\_\_\_\ /\/_/_/_/_/ /\/_/ \/_/_/_/_/_/ QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT, /\/_/__\/_/ __/\/_//\/_/ PROFUNDUM VIDITUR /\/_/_/_/_/ /\_\ /\/_//\/_/ /\/_/ \/_/ /\/_/_/\/_//\/_/ (Whatever is said in Latin \/_/ \/_/ \/_/_/_/_/ \/_/ appears profound) Rob Tanner McMinnville, Oregon [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP signature
Re: perl's memory leak
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The output I get is
used memory = 0
used memory = 0
used memory = 0
used memory = 0
used memory = 0
I get the same under perl 5.6.0 on linux, looks like BSD::Resource doesn't
work there :( Anyone?
Use gtop instead (if you have it):
use GTop ();
print GTop-new-proc_mem($$)-size,"\n";
I'm interested in how many leaks are possible in mod_perl
though because my mod_perl processes are getting bigger
with time -- about 200 requests is making the process
fatter by 1mb on the average. I'm watching to see if
they will max out around the current level of 10 mb per child.
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 07:53:16PM +0300, Ivan E. Panchenko wrote:
Today I discovered a strange behaiviour of perl,
and I wonder if anybody can tell me what to do with it.
The matter is that perl DOES NOT REUSE MEMORY allocated for
intermediate calculation results. This is specially harmful to
data-intensive modperl applications where one perl process processes
many queries and can leak great amount of memory.
The example is below:
use BSD::Resource;
my $cc = 'a' x 2000 ;# alocates 20Mb for the right part and
# 20Mb for $a
p;
{ my $a = $cc.'x'; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
# and 20 for a
p;
undef $a; # deallocates $a
}
p;
{ my $b = $cc.'y'; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
# and reuses deallocated 20Mb for b
p;
undef $b;
}
p;
sub p {
print STDERR "used memory = ".(BSD::Resource::getrusage)[2]."\n"
}
# end of example.
Output:
used memory = 40772
used memory = 79804
used memory = 80068
used memory = 99676
used memory = 99700
##
Here I used BSD:Resource to measure consumed memory. Its result seems to
be correlated with the amount of memory taken by the process from the OS.
#
This was checked on FreeBSD 3.4 and 4.2 ; and perl5.00405 5.00503 .
Same things where noticed on Linux and probably on Solaris too.
Ivan
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Alliance? WAS - Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
What about working with ActiveState? I know they were primarily Windows focused, but they now have Linux and Solaris versions of Perl pre compiled. mod_perl can now be gotten to work with the latest ActivePerl build (622) for Windows. (thanks to Randy Kobes, or at least I think that is who has pushed for this) I have to admit that until their compile worked with mod_perl I saw them as 'evil' through the eyes of Perl. ActiveState (c|w)ould give credibility to the mod_perl from a business standpoint. ActiveState also has the new Komodo IDE which is a cross platform IDE for Perl and Python. It uses the Mozilla engine. http://www.activestate.com/Corporate/Communications/Releases/Press974947521.html (for the seperate discussion of GUI interfaces) Should someone try to form an alliance with ActiveState to insure they don't ignore mod_perl users or want to be users? Aaron Johnson Stas Bekman wrote: Well as you've probably figured out, based on the load of email from me, I've dropped my last job, in order to finally finish the mod_perl book, have some rest and make a push to mod_perl. Yesterday I've updated the stats page: http://perl.apache.org/netcraft/ and the results are so-so, we go down on the number of domains. Which I suppose mainly caused by people reading the guide and deploying the front-end proxy solution, thus making mod_perl un-seen by various scanners like netcraft. In Paris we couldn't hire a single mod_perl programmer, because people don't even know what that. They know a lot about php and ASP. It's true that they don't even know what's Perl :( But, you all know that php pretty much takes over. Why? For two reasons: 1) initial corporate pushing (press/ads) 2) once well known, the word of the mouth does the rest. mod_perl lucks the corporate money/PR to get pushed. But we can still work on the exposure, which will bring corporate money/PR thru the word of the mouth. Luckily Matt has got sick of waiting for someone to work on the advocacy of mod_perl and he has just taken over it. Having a good informational site is good, but it's not enough. We need to solve the problem of people to find this site and wanting to use mod_perl. Solution? Spreading the word. I see two main streams: 1) Online zines. 2) Conferences. I think that we should start working on locating ezines wanting to publish mod_perl related articles (preferrably for a fee, to give incentives for others to write) and conferences where mod_perl can be relevant. The data is to be collected and distributed to the people who wish to advocate mod_perl, thru written articles and conference classes. I suppose that we will also look for companies who want to order mod_perl classes and find the teachers in the appropriate areas. May be we could organize some certification classes, to give more PR to mod_perl. I suppose that much more can be done. Comments are welcome. _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://jazzvalley.com http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Help needed with MAP expression
Hi there,
Can any one help me what this MAP function does...
map(/^[\.\d]+$/ ? td({-align='right'}, $_) : td($_), @$_)
I am really confused by this one... your help would be appreciated..
Thank You,
- Bari
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Re: Validating Parsers
On Wed, 6 Dec 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know of a xml parsing module that validates using built-in functionality, or is there a method to validate xml using XML::Parser with another module? Ah, if you want to ask an off-topic question, couldn't you at least TRY to mask it as mod_perl relevant. Please use comp.lang.perl.misc or some relevant mailinglist. Or check the archives before sending mail; this has been answered recently. - ask -- ask bjoern hansen - http://ask.netcetera.dk/ more than 70M impressions per day, http://valueclick.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] mod_motd
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Jerrad Pierce wrote: Am I losing my mind or is there a mod_motd for Apache floating around? I haven't been able to find it anywhere, but I'm sure I've seen it. (Checked Freshmeat, search engines, and Apache module repository) seems to be ontopic since it's Apache::Motd The magic query was: http://www.google.com/search?q=apache+motdhl=enlr=safe=off The results are: http://theoryx5.uwinnipeg.ca/CPAN/data/Apache-Motd/Motd.html _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/ http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] mod_motd
Yes, it's called Apache::Motd -Carlos Jerrad Pierce wrote: Am I losing my mind or is there a mod_motd for Apache floating around? I haven't been able to find it anywhere, but I'm sure I've seen it. (Checked Freshmeat, search engines, and Apache module repository) Thanks - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- --- Carlos Ramirez + Boeing + Reusable Space Systems + 714.372.4181 --- -- Don't make me use uppercase
Re: [OT] mod_motd
I think there's a Apache::Motd perl module, is that what your looking for? sterling On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Jerrad Pierce wrote: Am I losing my mind or is there a mod_motd for Apache floating around? I haven't been able to find it anywhere, but I'm sure I've seen it. (Checked Freshmeat, search engines, and Apache module repository) Thanks - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dependent modules
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Aaron Johnson wrote: I saw reference in some of the advocacy thread to having some way to list what modules are dependent on others. When I use CPAN (the module not the site) to install some modules it automatically installs the other required modules, but I assume this only works with modules that are on CPAN (the site not the module). more work/guide/Makefile.PL package Apache::mod_perl_guide; ... # prerequisites my %require = ( "Pod::HtmlPsPdf" = "0.03", ); ... WriteMakefile ( ... PREREQ_PM = \%require, ); ... There is more about it, see the whole Makefile.PL... perldoc ExtUtils::MakeMaker for more info If a module has a dependency on an item outside of CPAN shouldn't CPAN allow for a hook or something that can tell CPAN where to look for a dependency? you write the Makefile, so you can do whatever you want (talking about checking), certainly CPAN.pm cannot install non Perl modules.. I also notice that not all modules will auto install dependent modules, i.e. Apache::ASP. But most will. I suppose this is all documented some where, but since I don't have anything on CPAN currently I haven't really looked. Did I miss understand the comments inside of the other thread? Aaron Johnson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://logilune.com/ http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: debuggers
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, martin langhoff wrote: Perrin Harkins wrote: I don't know how easy it is to make it play with mod_perl though. Apache::Debug normally just dumps you into the shell debugger. Maybe setting an environment variable would do it. I've always considered mod_perl to be completely debugger-unfriendly. That's why I write modules that I can test from a standard script, and then call those modules from Embperl pages or Registry scripts. I wonder how do those hardcore guys that develop using handlers debug. Mhhh. They must write 'perlfect' code, I guess, and/or understand those cryptic debuggers ... Personally I've always relied on sending debug messages to the log, and then staring at the code for a few minutes/months. -- Matt/ /||** Director and CTO ** //||** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving ** // ||** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP ** // \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ ** \\// //\\ // \\ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: debuggers
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, martin langhoff wrote: I wonder how do those hardcore guys that develop using handlers debug. Mhhh. They must write 'perlfect' code, I guess, and/or understand those cryptic debuggers ... I just do a lot of debugging via warn statements and looking at the error logs. -dave /*== www.urth.org We await the New Sun ==*/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: perl's memory leak
You probably tried this script on linux or some other not fully BSD
compartible system. We obtained same zeros on linux, where getrusage()
means something else than on FreeBSD,
but if you try measuring memory sizes with ps or top, you should
observe the mentioned leak. Please insert sleep(10) after print STDERR
and watch "top".
Ivan
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The output I get is
used memory = 0
used memory = 0
used memory = 0
used memory = 0
used memory = 0
I'm interested in how many leaks are possible in mod_perl
though because my mod_perl processes are getting bigger
with time -- about 200 requests is making the process
fatter by 1mb on the average. I'm watching to see if
they will max out around the current level of 10 mb per child.
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 07:53:16PM +0300, Ivan E. Panchenko wrote:
Today I discovered a strange behaiviour of perl,
and I wonder if anybody can tell me what to do with it.
The matter is that perl DOES NOT REUSE MEMORY allocated for
intermediate calculation results. This is specially harmful to
data-intensive modperl applications where one perl process processes
many queries and can leak great amount of memory.
The example is below:
use BSD::Resource;
my $cc = 'a' x 2000 ;# alocates 20Mb for the right part and
# 20Mb for $a
p;
{ my $a = $cc.'x'; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
# and 20 for a
p;
undef $a; # deallocates $a
}
p;
{ my $b = $cc.'y'; # allocates 20 more Mb for right part
# and reuses deallocated 20Mb for b
p;
undef $b;
}
p;
sub p {
print STDERR "used memory = ".(BSD::Resource::getrusage)[2]."\n"
}
# end of example.
Output:
used memory = 40772
used memory = 79804
used memory = 80068
used memory = 99676
used memory = 99700
##
Here I used BSD:Resource to measure consumed memory. Its result seems to
be correlated with the amount of memory taken by the process from the OS.
#
This was checked on FreeBSD 3.4 and 4.2 ; and perl5.00405 5.00503 .
Same things where noticed on Linux and probably on Solaris too.
Ivan
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Re: Dependent modules
Aaron, That would be a comment from me :) On Sparc-Solaris 2.6, getting CPAN to install the dependent modules or even tell you what they are doesn't always (read - seldom - at least in my experience) work. In the cases where it does at least tell you which one, there are several modules with nearly identical names. The descriptions are also often virtually identical as well. In which case, one is left to resolve the module dependencies by hand. Module::A Possibly dependent on Module::B, Module::C, or Module::D Module B is possibly dependent on B1, B2, or B3 Module C is possibly dependent on C1, C2, or C3 Module D is possibly dependent on D1, D2, or D3 B1 is dependent on ba, bb, or bc B2 is dependent on bd, be, or bf B3 is dependent on bg, bh, or bi Same for Modules C and D. So, with out doing some extensive empirical testing, which combination works... See why this gets frustrating.. Which means that you get to do a lot of work to find out which combination will work because you have to work your way down and resolve the initial dependency which may be down at say , B1/bb/Bg/b7. before any of the higher level things will work. It rather quickly becomes a royal pima. This is why CPAN needs to list it on the web site. Aaron Johnson wrote: I saw reference in some of the advocacy thread to having some way to list what modules are dependent on others. When I use CPAN (the module not the site) to install some modules it automatically installs the other required modules, but I assume this only works with modules that are on CPAN (the site not the module). If a module has a dependency on an item outside of CPAN shouldn't CPAN allow for a hook or something that can tell CPAN where to look for a dependency? I also notice that not all modules will auto install dependent modules, i.e. Apache::ASP. But most will. I suppose this is all documented some where, but since I don't have anything on CPAN currently I haven't really looked. Did I miss understand the comments inside of the other thread? Aaron Johnson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Jimi Thompson Web Master L3 communications "It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky." - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: debuggers
martin langhoff wrote: I wonder how do those hardcore guys that develop using handlers debug. Mhhh. They must write 'perlfect' code, I guess, and/or understand those cryptic debuggers ... Actually, debugging handlers is pretty easy. Just run httpd with the -X flag to make it single process, and use Apache::DB to get mod_perl to run under the debugger. Get Apache::DB from CPAN perl -MCPAN -e 'install Apache::DB' and read its docs perldoc Apache::DB When Apache hits your Perl code, you are dropped into the standard Perl debugger. Although typing '?' at the debug prompt shows a bewildering array of options, you can do a lot by knowing: n - Step over s - Step into x expr - Print the value of expr w - Show a few lines either side of the current one b sub - break at sub c - continue (stop debugging) c line# - continue, and break at line# HTH, Jeremy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: debuggers
Perrin Harkins wrote: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, martin langhoff wrote: I've always considered mod_perl to be completely debugger-unfriendly. That's why I write modules that I can test from a standard script, and then call those modules from Embperl pages or Registry scripts. Apache::Debug works. It's almost exactly the same as debugging a standard script. i got it running once on our dev box and then no go ever since then but yes it is sweet! I wonder how do those hardcore guys that develop using handlers debug. Mhhh. They must write 'perlfect' code, I guess, and/or understand those cryptic debuggers ... Do not be afraid of the command line... The Perl debugging shell is really not so hard if you give it a chance. I've taught a number of people here how to use it. I'm always amazed that more people don't use tools like the debugger and the profiler. They're life savers. - Perrin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [certification]
See - I KNEW IT!!! You aren't a PHB. You have to look at this like a PHB. PHB's don't care if the paper means anything relevant. PHB's live for Plausible Deniability and Glory Hogging. If they can't take credit for it, they don't want to get blamed for it either. If anything goes wrong, they want to be able to say that he had fill in the blank so I thought he was qualified. On the other hand, if it does well then he can then take the credit because the person he hired had fill in the blank. Heck, I got started in the IT business professionally years ago because I fooled a PHB into letting me take over his network while working on a degree in Biochemistry. He actually thought it had something to do with computers. Geeks know its just paper and that paper three appropriate uses (for writing on, paper airplanes, and TP). Geeks know that paper doesn't pass for credentials. The PHB's haven't gotten around to that idea yet. They probably never will. Personally, I don't mind getting the paper. It usually means that the PHB's are willing to put more zero's on my paycheck because I have acquired another piece of paper. Getting more zero's from the PHB's is a good thing. Eric Strovink wrote: You smoked me out -- lots of hair, all limp. And yes, I am a "geeks dream boss." I'm a geek. Jimi Thompson wrote: Eric, You fail to understand that while you are probably a geeks dream boss, you are not the average PHB. Heck, your hair is probably limp ;). The idea here is to gain acceptance and even status with the PHB. PHB's like paper. It doesn't matter if its a useful piece of paper or not (MCSE's are a PRIME example of a useless paper - as are many college degrees). They live for paper. Its job security for them. It makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside. It also allows them to cover their butts should anything go wrong with said hire-ee. Eric Strovink wrote: Somebody wrote: If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . You're way off base. Figure out the wife. I've never hired a "certified" engineer, and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks of shit. In fact, I've had great success doing exactly the opposite, and *hiring the wrong guy*. Take a person who's been writing compiler back ends for the last 10 years. This person is constantly pigeonholed by every headhunter out there into yet another compiler job, and he'd give his eye teeth to do something different. You hire him for something completely different, and he ends up being the most enthusiastic and productive person you've got, because everything's new and exciting to him. And believe me, folks, if he can write the back end to a compiler, he can figure out mod_perl. Or, I could hire Ferd over here, with a limp certificate from Randal saying he's passed some clever little test on the six most obscure ways to mumble. Uh, no thanks. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Jimi Thompson Web Master L3 communications "It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky." -- Jimi Thompson Web Master L3 communications "It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky." - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Help needed with MAP expression
It takes a reference to an array, and checks to see if each element of the
arry only contains one or more "."s or digits, if it does it calls the td()
function with parameters, returning the result, if not, it returns the element.
I think.
On 07-Dec-2000 bari wrote:
Hi there,
Can any one help me what this MAP function does...
map(/^[\.\d]+$/ ? td({-align='right'}, $_) : td($_), @$_)
I am really confused by this one... your help would be appreciated..
Thank You,
- Bari
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Jason Bodnar
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Gocho Networks
It could be one of these chemicals here that makes him so smart. Lisa,
maybe you should try some of this.
-- Homer Simpson
Bart the Genius
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Re: Alliance? WAS - Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection
The could be although ActiveState has a product that competes with mod_perl on the NT side called PerlEx. What is too bad about the silence about the relationship is that PerlEx as a product could really benefit from evolving upon the back of a mod_perl code base. ...In terms of rapidly finding bugs with persistent Perl engines in a larger user base as well as sharing mod_perl's Guide (which is way better than the docs that come with PerlEx -- eg the PerlEx docs suggest sharing a DBI Handle using $dbh ||= connect() instead of Apache::DBI which would work much better under PerlEx straight out of the box!) . I've suggested this before on their PerlEx user list but have been ignored by them. Afterawhile I just stopped any suggesting as I interpret the lack of response to mean that they feel differently but for whatever reason won't state such reasons publicly and don't feel its worth the time in lieu of anything else. Maybe they would feel different now if someone else approached them. At 05:07 PM 12/7/00 -0500, Aaron Johnson wrote: What about working with ActiveState? I know they were primarily Windows focused, but they now have Linux and Solaris versions of Perl pre compiled. mod_perl can now be gotten to work with the latest ActivePerl build (622) for Windows. (thanks to Randy Kobes, or at least I think that is who has pushed for this) I have to admit that until their compile worked with mod_perl I saw them as 'evil' through the eyes of Perl. ActiveState (c|w)ould give credibility to the mod_perl from a business standpoint. ActiveState also has the new Komodo IDE which is a cross platform IDE for Perl and Python. It uses the Mozilla engine. http://www.activestate.com/Corporate/Communications/Releases/Press974947521.html (for the seperate discussion of GUI interfaces) Should someone try to form an alliance with ActiveState to insure they don't ignore mod_perl users or want to be users? Aaron Johnson Stas Bekman wrote: Well as you've probably figured out, based on the load of email from me, I've dropped my last job, in order to finally finish the mod_perl book, have some rest and make a push to mod_perl. Yesterday I've updated the stats page: http://perl.apache.org/netcraft/ and the results are so-so, we go down on the number of domains. Which I suppose mainly caused by people reading the guide and deploying the front-end proxy solution, thus making mod_perl un-seen by various scanners like netcraft. In Paris we couldn't hire a single mod_perl programmer, because people don't even know what that. They know a lot about php and ASP. It's true that they don't even know what's Perl :( But, you all know that php pretty much takes over. Why? For two reasons: 1) initial corporate pushing (press/ads) 2) once well known, the word of the mouth does the rest. mod_perl lucks the corporate money/PR to get pushed. But we can still work on the exposure, which will bring corporate money/PR thru the word of the mouth. Luckily Matt has got sick of waiting for someone to work on the advocacy of mod_perl and he has just taken over it. Having a good informational site is good, but it's not enough. We need to solve the problem of people to find this site and wanting to use mod_perl. Solution? Spreading the word. I see two main streams: 1) Online zines. 2) Conferences. I think that we should start working on locating ezines wanting to publish mod_perl related articles (preferrably for a fee, to give incentives for others to write) and conferences where mod_perl can be relevant. The data is to be collected and distributed to the people who wish to advocate mod_perl, thru written articles and conference classes. I suppose that we will also look for companies who want to order mod_perl classes and find the teachers in the appropriate areas. May be we could organize some certification classes, to give more PR to mod_perl. I suppose that much more can be done. Comments are welcome. _ Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://apachetoday.com http://jazzvalley.com http://singlesheaven.com http://perl.apache.org http://perlmonth.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Gunther Birznieks ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) eXtropia - The Web Technology Company http://www.extropia.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL
Re: [certification]
Certification does have its merits. I know this analogy is not quite correct but its the only one that comes to mind. Would you have a nurse or a doctor treat your abdominal pains? I rather not have the abdominal pains in the first place but I rather have the doctor treat me than the nurse. If money was not an big issue, would you have a plumber or a certified plumber working on your broken bathroom pipe? Sadly but true that a lot of "certified" professionals whatever out there are who are not really deserving of the title "certified ...". How, as a business owner, manager, etc., determine whether or not you are as good as you say you are? Its difficult unless you personally know him. I believe that certification is a good thing. It gives a field of expertise credibility. It can make it attractive for people to choose a field of study. My question is now: Is it possible for a open source community to certified each other? Is it credible? Flames welcome, ..todd Somebody wrote: If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . You're way off base. Figure out the wife. I've never hired a "certified" engineer, and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks of shit. I'd have to concur. A certificate means you can pass a test, it doesn't mean you can code your way out of wet paper bag. I consider myself a very good coder, but I don't do well on true/false, multiple choice, and similar kinds of tests. I've also done hiring, and in my previous job, I regularly did peer interviews. I can discover far more about a person's abilities by talking to him or her for a few minutes and exploring some hypothetical ideas and/or programming scenarios or just talking about stuff they've written. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Certification
At the very least even if there is no certification, perhaps just a training course on mod_perl from Merlyn/Stonehenge would act in lieu of such. If I knew someone had trained for a week with Randal's company in either OO Perl technology (PROM) or mod_perl (a course that doesn't seem to exist on StoneHenge yet), I would definitely take more than a 2nd glance at a stack of CVs that all claim to know Perl equally well. It's not about blindly hiring someone with certs or a training course, but about sifting through a ton of CVs where everyone and sometimes their mothers claim they know Java and/or Perl and shortlisting them among the ones to call. Of course, I don't have that problem in Singapore where few people claim to know Perl -- but in UK and USA, I always had people writing Perl this and Perl that on their CVs. Just the fact that StoneHenge could act as a spreader of mod_perl technology through its training would perhaps add some legitimacy. Where do people go for mod_perl training now? They have to wait for ApacheCon and PerlCon. And even then (no offense to Stas great presentations) it's a day or two course in a lecture rather than hands-on format. A lecture format is great for spreading the word at the conferences, but hands-on training would be even better. Or perhaps there isn't a demand for mod_perl training in which case I guess that's a business decision. I think I was wrong the cert thing... perhaps it is premature. I don't think I am wrong that a cert would be a good idea eventually -- and hopefully it will be a debate we can have next year when its hopefully applicable. And for now it is probably correct that if a person knows mod_perl they will be snapped up in the job market anyway. At 12:59 PM 12/7/00 -0600, Jimi Thompson wrote: When MCSE's were just starting to be issued, no one thought that they were important either. However, the PHB's who do the hiring said "Oo, you have a sheet of paper from M$ that says your ok. You're hired!" My point is that if you are trying to appeal to the businesses, please look at what has worked in the past for others and see if it can work for Perl as well. Perl needs to move out of the hacker market and in to the mainstream if it is to thrive. In order to move into the mainstream and take its rightful place with Java, it's go to have a perception change. I think that certification would certainly help. Where can I go to get mine? John Reid wrote: If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure out my wife . . . Ask yourself this question: Are you in need of a mod_perl job? If so, I'm willing to bet that there are employers who would snap you up in a second. As has been said a few times here, certification is pretty pointless unless you need some distinguishing factor. With mod_perl, the distinguishing factor is that you're available! This is an interesting thread. Just one point though ... just who is available? Are they any good? Have they any experience? Are they telling the truth? Certification may be an issue that deserves careful attention, before idiots go and try to implement mod_perl solutions, make a complete pig's ear and give us all a bad name. John Reid OpenConnect (Ireland) Ltd - You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ... ... but it does make a rather attractive novelty luggage tag. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.215 / Virus Database: 101 - Release Date: 16/11/2000 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Jimi Thompson Web Master L3 communications "It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky." - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Gunther Birznieks ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) eXtropia - The Web Technology Company http://www.extropia.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dependent modules
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Jimi Thompson wrote: That would be a comment from me :) On Sparc-Solaris 2.6, getting CPAN to install the dependent modules or even tell you what they are doesn't always (read - seldom - at least in my experience) work. If that's the case, you should speak to the authors of the modules you're having trouble with about correcting their makefiles. CPAN.pm works great, but it can't read minds. Yet. - Perrin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Slow Mailing List
Now that traffic has increased on this list, I don't know if this is an illusion but it seems to take a really long time between the time I post a message and the mod_perl mailing list gets it back to me. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [certification]
At 05:55 PM 12/7/00 -0600, Jimi Thompson wrote: Geeks know its just paper and that paper three appropriate uses (for writing on, paper airplanes, and TP). Geeks know that paper doesn't pass for credentials. The PHB's haven't You miss the point. It's not about credentials in a boolean sense. It's about probability and statistics. Someone who has credentials/training on their CV increases the probability that they know something, it doesn't mean they definitely know something. Obviously they still have to be technically interviewed, but in lieu of someone with or without certification, it's easier to short-list on the basis of such certification (or some equivalent outstanding thing such as contributing to CPAN). Everyone knows that a University Degree in CS doesn't mean someone is a great programmer. And there's a ton of people out there who prove otherwise. BUT out of people who are hacks and people who have degrees in CS, the people with degrees in CS have a tendency to have a background that make them better programmers. Also different types of certs have different probabilities. A lot of people know MCSE means little nowadays. But an MCSD is fairly difficult from what I understand. And on the other end of the spectrum, the couple of people I know who are fully 100% CISCO certified through and through are like networking Gods (at least to me). Degrees and certifications help narrow things down. It doesn't mean they are perfect, but they definitely are not just TP as you so eloquently put it. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: mod_perl advocacy project resurrection (and a proposal!)
I would agree. If you want to see design patterns in practical action with relation to mod_perl.. go to http://www.extropia.com/ExtropiaObjects/ and skim through Chapters 10 (App Architecture) and on (on the individual app toolkit components). Each one contains a sidebar on how design patterns affected the design of our application toolkit for CGI and mod_perl. Later, Gunther At 08:33 AM 12/7/00 -0800, brian moseley wrote: On 7 Dec 2000, David Hodgkinson wrote: Development are two of the bibles. I have to say though, I've avoided the Design Patterns type books purely because of the C++/Java bias. you sure are missing out. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Gunther Birznieks ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) eXtropia - The Web Technology Company http://www.extropia.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Slow Mailing List
On Dec 08, Gunther Birznieks wrote: Now that traffic has increased on this list, I don't know if this is an illusion but it seems to take a really long time between the time I post a message and the mod_perl mailing list gets it back to me. the machine that handles mail for all of the apache.org mailing lists is currently a bit overloaded during peak hours. there's work afoot to replace it with a beefier, more finely tuned, and dedicated-for-mail-handling machine within the next couple of weeks (being conservative -- it could happen sooner). in the meantime, be patient. :) jim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [certification]
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The day after the technology stabilizes one can decide
what to certify people to do.
If Perl6 is two+ years off, 5.6 certification makes sense.
If Apache2.0/Modperl2.0 are x:{x2,10} months off
are taking up a lot of Doug's and other mod_perl CPAN
developers busy adapting/adopting to hooks, filters, and
whatever 5.6 threw at them, I'll suggest that
Mod_Perl Certification might solve some problems, but
I think it is important to cerify stable things.
- -JoshNarins
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