[VIHUELA] Re: Definitions
Well, turning to Sanz, I can see that a Canarios is based on hemiola, is in a major key, moving from I - IV - I - V. Not being a scholar, I can't say with any statistical certainty whether this is definitive across all of Spain, the New World, and the rest of Europe. But it seems pretty common to me. I'm not trying to be glib. I think there's plenty of interesting material to be found in this question. I suspect there might be papers written about individual song forms, and maybe that's what you should be looking for. For example, I believe the Canarios did transform in the New World, but I can't say exactly how, why, or when. I just know I've heard versions that seem to have an American influence. OTOH, for reference Sanz lays out the chord structures for most of the popular hits of the era in his Alfabeto section, complete with simple strumming patterns. So in a way, that really is a dictionary... cud __ From: Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 6:35 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Definitions Hello! Well, yes, I know they're specific forms, but it'd be intersting to know how each is defined - a specific harmonic progression, a certain rhythm, etca| Edward Chrysogonus Yong [1]edward.y...@gmail.com On 12 Jan, 2014, at 1:36 AM, Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Well, you could try the Gaspar Sanz manuscripts :) Actually, that's a lame joke, but in a way the definition is the music itself, no? They are specific song forms -- but I'm sure you know that. You might be looking for the history of each one? That would indeed be interesting. From: Edward C. Yong [3]edward.y...@gmail.com To: Vihuela List [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2014 10:27 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Definitions Hi all! Could anyone advise where I might find definitions of the terms 'Canarios', 'Marionas', and so on? Google is no help :( Thanks! Edward Chrysogonus Yong [5]edward.y...@gmail.com To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 2. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 3. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Frets
I don't know whether you can say going from 5 to 6 coursed marked the change. I believe I saw in a museum in Milan a 6-course guitar with tied frets. As a total layman, I can't say anything about what was original or authentic. The label says: Chitarra (a sei corde), Sanctus Seraphin, Venezia, 1727. Ok, so that date almost certainly means it was retro-fitted with 6 single-strung courses? cud __ From: Valery SAUVAGE sauvag...@orange.fr To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 9:39 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Frets Hello, I have a baroque guitar dated 1760 with gut frets, and a romantic one (early romantic) dated 1795-1800 with bone-ebony frets. So I guess when going from 5 course to 6 strings the change was made also for frets. closer to 1800 thanto the middle of the century in my opinion. my 2 cts... Valery Message du 06/11/13 14:39 De : WALSH STUART A : Monica Hall , Vihuelalist Copie `a : Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Frets On 06/11/2013 11:28, Monica Hall wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom,, When did fixed, rather than tied on frets become the norm on the guitar? Monica Obviously, some time in the 18th century. The middle? The photo of James Tyler's late eighteenth-century guitar: signed 'John Preston' in The Early Guitar clearly shows tied on frets- which is surprising -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. [2]http://www.avast.com -- -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. http://www.avast.com/
[VIHUELA] Re: Frets
Understood, Valery. And also, I believe the guitar I mentioned (after looking at the picture) must have been treated the same way as yours. There may indeed be a correlation between single-strung, 6-course guitars and solid frets. I wonder -- were the double-strung 6-course instruments made with tied frets? __ From: Valery SAUVAGE sauvag...@orange.fr To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 11:14 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Frets I don't say the change was made together (from gut to fixed frets and from 5 c to 6 strings), but obviously in the same period of time both occurs... And of course you can always find some exceptions... My baroque guitar was converted to 6 single strings at the change of the century (around 1800) but stay with gut frets... (now converted back to 5 course baroque guitar) V. Message du 06/11/13 16:37 De : Chris Despopoulos A : Valery SAUVAGE , Vihuelalist Copie `a : Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Frets I don't know whether you can say going from 5 to 6 coursed marked the change. I believe I saw in a museum in Milan a 6-course guitar with tied frets. As a total layman, I can't say anything about what was original or authentic. The label says: Chitarra (a sei corde), Sanctus Seraphin, Venezia, 1727. Ok, so that date almost certainly means it was retro-fitted with 6 single-strung courses? cud __ From: Valery SAUVAGE To: Vihuelalist Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 9:39 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Frets Hello, I have a baroque guitar dated 1760 with gut frets, and a romantic one (early romantic) dated 1795-1800 with bone-ebony frets. So I guess when going from 5 course to 6 strings the change was made also for frets. closer to 1800 thanto the middle of the century in my opinion. my 2 cts... Valery Message du 06/11/13 14:39 De : WALSH STUART A : Monica Hall , Vihuelalist Copie `a : Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Frets On 06/11/2013 11:28, Monica Hall wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom,, When did fixed, rather than tied on frets become the norm on the guitar? Monica Obviously, some time in the 18th century. The middle? The photo of James Tyler's late eighteenth-century guitar: signed 'John Preston' in The Early Guitar clearly shows tied on frets- which is surprising -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. [2][2]http://www.avast.com -- -- References 1. [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. [4]http://www.avast.com/ -- -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. http://www.avast.com/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.avast.com/
[VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
Frankly, I prefer to use the word intimate in place of feeble. I would not urge extroversion... an introverted reading sounds very nice to me... This coming from somebody who habitually bangs on his guitar like a stable boy (or however that disparaging quote about the guitar goes...) cud __ From: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: ar...@student.matnat.uio.no; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 3:24 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar? I couldn't resist a quick try at it: [1]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Visee.wav The fifth and sixth couplets (?) seem quite different from the lute/theorbo. I wonder if the scribe was arranging it as s/he wrote it out? Listening to the massive, booming performances of this piece on youtube, on monster lute/theorbo makes the little guitar seem a bit feeble. Maybe it need a very extravert performance on a loud guitar. Stuart On 11 November 2012 19:33, Monica Hall [2][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: A transcription of it is also included in Robert Strizich's edition of De Visee's complete works published by Heugel in1969. Monica - Original Message - From: [3][2]ar...@student.matnat.uio.no To: Monica Hall [4][3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Arto Wikla [5][4]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi; Vihuelalist [6][5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar? It has also been recorded by Rafael Andia. But I don't really like the recording... mvh Are Dear Arto There is a guitar version of this chaconne - in D minor - in the huge manuscript F.Pn Res. F. 844. It is on p.237. Someone - Stuart I think - pointed out that you can download an image of the whole of this ms. from the Bib. Nat. site. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Arto Wikla [7][6]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Vihuelalist [8][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 9:22 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar? Dear flat back lutenists, My try on de Visee's Chaconne in A minor is - as I told - is in [9][8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHHPeLMNYUfeature=youtu.be [10]http://vimeo.com/53172045 As I said, there is the original(?) theorbo version of this d-minor lute version, but I have a strong memory image that there is also a version to the 5 course guitar of this Chaconne. Is it there? Monica? Other specialists? best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Visee.wav 2. mailto:[10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:[11]ar...@student.matnat.uio.no 4. mailto:[12]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. mailto:[13]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 6. mailto:[14]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:[15]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 8. mailto:[16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. [17]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHHPeLMNYUfeature=youtu.be 10. [18]http://vimeo.com/53172045 11. [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:ar...@student.matnat.uio.no 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 5. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHHPeLMNYUfeature=youtu.be 9. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Visee.wav 10. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 11. mailto:ar...@student.matnat.uio.no 12. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 13. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 14. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 15. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 16. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 17. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHHPeLMNYUfeature=youtu.be 18. http://vimeo.com/53172045 19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
Out of curiosity, how is a mandora to be played such that strumming would not work? (Not to be confused with a mandore, right?) cud __ From: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2012 3:18 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande? But how do you think the Tombeau, Sarabande and Minuet would work on a mandora? There are a lot of strummed chords in the Sarabande. Very untypical for a mandora? And the stringing arrangement is probably a high fifth course and octave on fourth - quite different from low basses of a mandora. Isn't the Sarabande looking back to the 17th century, rather than to galant style? Stuart On 6 November 2012 15:18, Martyn Hodgson [1][1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Yes, I have the Supraphon edition - not at all bad considering the date. Alas, some of the transcriptions are incorrect: see, for example, No 1 Allemande. This is also the first piece in MsKk 77 but you'll see that the flags in the first full bar are incorrectly transcribed in the Supraphon edition: instead of three quavers (down, up, down) the editors have them as a quaver (d) and two semi-quavers (u d). The rest of the piece is similarly incorrectly transcribed. This is the worst of all but there are a fair number of such scattered errors throughout the publication. The one I like the best is No 33 'Aria' which they transcribe as being in 5/4 time and over which I tried many different stresses to make it work effectively (shades of William Shield's predeliction for 5/4) but, alas, when I saw a copy of the original I saw the scribe marks it simply as a 3 time and, although some flags are missing and barring is often nonsensical, it plays as a triple time piece - what a shame - I rather liked the idea of a 5/4 guitar work in the early 18th century. The page before has a 'Menuet' which is similarly poorly barred in the original but as a menuet can be easily rebarred (interestingly the Supraphon editors exclude it altogether, perhaps for such bamng reasons - so No 32 isn't in the publication...). But hats off to Supraphon for publishing such a work at that date - so the 'communist' state at the time was not all bad.. You'll see the editors also made a list of sources and include another one for mandora with works by Losy: Brno, Mopravian Museum A 3329 The Losy rondeau I mentioned as being probably for mandora is on page 31 of the Supraphon edition. In Brno Ms D189 it has 'Rondeau / C Loeschi' which the editors thought, I think correctly, is Losy. This particular piece does, in fact, appear as a Dm lute piece (can't find it off-hand but I have it somewhere) as well as in D189 for a 6 string instrument in a known mandora tuning. We've discussed D189 before - it contains instructions how to tune the gallichon/mandora ( f. 3 'Calledono accord') and the guitar (f.48 ' Fundementa Chytarra') and, interestingly, on f.48v has 'Accordo Chytarra et Mandora indicating either instrument is possible. And from f. 48v it has pieces for an instrument with six courses in a known mandora tuning with the sixth course just a tone below the fifth - presumably a guitarist would simply play the open third course. On 51v is our rondeau showing quite clearly 6 courses - and in this piece putting the sixth course up an octave would spoil the melodic effect (see last system bars 3 through to 6). Odd that the editors make no mention of a sixth course being required. The piece also fits very easily on the mandora so perhaps, as suggested earlier, it was conceived for the mandora by Losy rather than guitar or Dm lute. And so, in an indirect way, perhaps Losy was able to play the guitar - but in mandora form. I also find Deisel works better on the mandora than guitar ( to do with having low basses and on the outside) as also discussed before. rgds Martyn --- On Tue, 6/11/12, Monica Hall [2][2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
that. Really - I stick by what I have said. The chords are arranged in the way in which they fit conveniently on the fingerboard. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.ukTo: Monica Hall [11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.ukCc: Vihuelalist [12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.eduSent: Monday, September 10, 2012 4:13 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar Dear Monica, When you write 'The point is that the alfabeto chords (and other chords) are arranged in the way that most conveniently fits them on to the guitar fingerboard. The order of the notes and which ones are doubled is determined by practical considerations not by what anyone may have learnt in their harmony course.' your second sentence about the irrelevance of formal rules of harmony seems to me to accurately reflect how these chords probably became established. However the first sentence begs the original question: viz. why show as 20033 rather than 20003? Here, as others have already pointed out, I really do think there was some conscious decision made (by strummers before the days of recorded alfabeto) - in my view probably to duplicate the fifth rather than the third because the latter was already strong being the first course struck in a downwards strum. Also if there is a bourdon on the fourth course (ie the Corbetta/ French tuning which might reflect an earlier practice than generally recorded - certainly the four course guitar had an octave on the fourth course) if the 2nd course were taken open you would only have one string (the higher of the fifth course) for the upper octave fifth but four strings for the thirds; in this case fingering the 2nd course gives more equality between the thirds and fifths rgds Martyn --- On Mon, 10/9/12, Monica Hall [13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: Chris Despopoulos [15]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 10 September, 2012, 14:32 Well - I think we are getting a bit bogged down here. The point is that the alfabeto chords (and other chords) are arranged in the way that most conveniently fits them on to the guitar fingerboard. The order of the notes and which ones are doubled is determined by practical considerations not by what anyone may have learnt in their harmony course. Most of them can't be easily be rearranged or refingered and in the context in which they are used there is not a lot of point in doing so. In what circumtances would you want to use one form of Chord A rather than another? The chords in Sanz' Labyrinth are the same old basic chords played in different positions on the fingerboard. They are not revoiced or re-arranged in any way. What Sanz has in mind is plaing different harmonic progressions at different pitches not altering the chords themselves. I don't perceive music in alfabeto as being a way of getting you to play the guitar or some sort of stepping stone to doing
[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
I feel a need to clarify one thing. In no way was I suggesting that alfabeto playing is somehow inferior to punteado. What I meant is that the alfabeto schema that lays out the fingering for each chord is there to introduce players to the guitar so they can play pieces notated in alfabeto. After becoming accomplished, the player would not refer to the alfabeto schema, but having internalized it, would simply read the music. Same as guitarists do with chord charts today. That's the sense in which I meant the alfabeto is there to get you going... I meant the schema printed at the front of the book. Yes, improvisation must be appropriate. That relies on scholarship -- either your own, or more usually the collective scholarship of many, with helpful guidance from a teacher. That's how moderns have to approach it. In the day, improvisation was guided by the current tastes, written rules, and I can only imagine oral tradition to some degree. But improvisation was part of the music. As such, I can only imagine that while playing alfabeto, a player who had graduated from looking up chords in the schema would have fiddled around a bit. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:32 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar Well - I think we are getting a bit bogged down here. The point is that the alfabeto chords (and other chords) are arranged in the way that most conveniently fits them on to the guitar fingerboard. The order of the notes and which ones are doubled is determined by practical considerations not by what anyone may have learnt in their harmony course. Most of them can't be easily be rearranged or refingered and in the context in which they are used there is not a lot of point in doing so. In what circumtances would you want to use one form of Chord A rather than another? The chords in Sanz' Labyrinth are the same old basic chords played in different positions on the fingerboard. They are not revoiced or re-arranged in any way. What Sanz has in mind is plaing different harmonic progressions at different pitches not altering the chords themselves. I don't perceive music in alfabeto as being a way of getting you to play the guitar or some sort of stepping stone to doing something superior. It is a perfectly valid tradition in its own right. After all people had been playing the 4-course guitar for years before alfabeto came on the scene. Obviously you can do things like inserting 4-3 suspensions and 7th into the chords and adding ornamentation and of course you can write out completely different chords in tablature. Improvisation doesn't mean doing something completely out of character. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:22 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar I have an opinion -- Giving that opinion may open me up to some clarification, which is why I'm giving it. In other words, if I'm wrong about this, please let me know! When playing the modern guitar, I'll choose to add the D on the 2nd course (from high to low) or not, at will. Considerations include practical (as Monica stated for chord changes), leading notes, or general emphasis within the musical context. Everybody learns the G chord (modern) in various ways, and then later sees other people playing it with variations. At some point, one tries all the variations at least once. My opinion is that the Alfabeto is there to get you playing the guitar... Same as rudimentary chord books today. See your typical Ukulele book, for example. Sanz expanded on the Alfabeto with his Labarinto, and makes the claim that with all these chords you can now compose whatever variations you want (roughly paraphrased from memory). But (again, my opinion) this is still a guideline meant to illustrate the wonderful quality of the guitar, the displacement of chord forms to other positions, yielding other chords. I believe chords, as a concept, were fairly new at the time, and this Labarinto was quite the innovation. Further, my opinion is that you will reach a level of playing where your taste dictates your answers to these types of questions, in the given situation. This is the level you want to reach, and I think Sanz would want you to reach it. If you don't know how or why to play a G chord
[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
I have an opinion -- Giving that opinion may open me up to some clarification, which is why I'm giving it. In other words, if I'm wrong about this, please let me know! When playing the modern guitar, I'll choose to add the D on the 2nd course (from high to low) or not, at will. Considerations include practical (as Monica stated for chord changes), leading notes, or general emphasis within the musical context. Everybody learns the G chord (modern) in various ways, and then later sees other people playing it with variations. At some point, one tries all the variations at least once. My opinion is that the Alfabeto is there to get you playing the guitar... Same as rudimentary chord books today. See your typical Ukulele book, for example. Sanz expanded on the Alfabeto with his Labarinto, and makes the claim that with all these chords you can now compose whatever variations you want (roughly paraphrased from memory). But (again, my opinion) this is still a guideline meant to illustrate the wonderful quality of the guitar, the displacement of chord forms to other positions, yielding other chords. I believe chords, as a concept, were fairly new at the time, and this Labarinto was quite the innovation. Further, my opinion is that you will reach a level of playing where your taste dictates your answers to these types of questions, in the given situation. This is the level you want to reach, and I think Sanz would want you to reach it. If you don't know how or why to play a G chord, by all means, use the Alfabeto religiously. If you have moved to the next level, take the Alfabeto as a guideline, but add your own flavor to the music. I forget where I read it, and it was in the context of interpreting Baroque music on the MODERN guitar, but somebody said (again, paraphrased from memory), In that time, any musician who failed to improvise on a piece was a boring bird indeed. Something to that effect. (I imagine Richelieu fell into that category... But that's another topic.) cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 5:23 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar My ears have no problem with doubling the 3rd.As I pointed out Chords B, and N all have the major 3rd doubled. And the consonant form of chord L has the minor 3rd doubled. That doesn't seem to have bothered guitarists in the 17th century and it shouldn't bother you today either. I doubt whether you have encountered the dissonant form of Chord L in your harmony lessons either. That is a purely practical device. Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:12 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar On 9 September 2012 23:08, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: I don't think that doubling the 3rd is an issue or that what people learn in their harmony lessons today is particularly relevant. I doubt whether guitarists at the beginning of the 17th century thought in those terms. Neither do today's guitarists who chose for 33002(3), but their ears tell them it's the better choice. In harmony lessons you just learn to give names to what your ears already told you. In other words, don't turn the argument around. David -- *** David van Ooijen [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[VIHUELA] Re: Murcia - Cifras selectas online
I think I see the confusion with the library site... If you click the most obvious link (the title on the right) you don't see access to the PDF. You have to click the least obvious link -- the numeral 2 at the left. I thrashed over that for a good 20 minutes myself -- finally saw that clue after reviewing the thread a bit. It isn't immediately obvious, and those who are not familiar with academic library web listings can (one hopes) be excused for missing it. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 3:59 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Murcia - Cifras selectas online Yes - I've got a Dropbox and I was going to suggest that as the next option. It is a wonderful facility. Everyone should have one. It's a whole new way of working. Monica - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow [1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; vl [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 2:47 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Murcia - Cifras selectas online Thanks for the instructions Monica. Eloy Cruz was kind enough to send it to me by Dropbox. I have to say, I hope this scanning at high resolution is a trend that goes viral. Looking at this thing is almost like holding it. thanks, On Jun 17, 2012, at 1:06 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Try this... Where it says Escriba una palabra type in Cifras selectas. This brings up a list. The second item is the manuscript. Click on the 2 at the beginning. This brings up the full entry. Look down the list and find Enlace externo with an icon beside it and instructions Enlace a texto original digitalizado. This is next but one to the bottom of the list. Below is the reference to something else. Click on that. That brings up another screen with a lot of Spanish on it about agreeing to their condition. Ignore all that. At the bottom in the blue strip you will see the same icon again and the instructions Presione aqui para ver which means press here to have a look. If you do that the first page of the manuscript should appear. Hope that helps. Monica I can't really explain it any more clearly. Most of it is clear whether you understand the Spanish or not. Where it says Escriba una palabra type in Cifras selectas. Campo de buscado = field to search Chose that. Palabro clave titlulo = title field. Chose that. Palabras adyacentes = adjacent words - Click on Si for yes. Then Buscar = search This brings up a list. No. 1 is Alejandro Vera's edition of it. No. 2 is the manuscript itself. Click on the No. 2 at the beginning. This brings up the full entry. At the bottom just above Biblioteca Campus Oriente you will find Enlace externo with an icon beside it and instructions Enlace a texto original digitalizado. Enlace externo means external link. Enlace a texto original digitalizado. means link to digital version of the original text. Click on the iconThat brings up another screen with a lot of Spanish on it about agreeing to their condition. Ignore all that. At the bottom in the blue strip you will see the same icon again and the instructions Presione aqui para ver which means press here to have a look. If you do that the first page of the manuscript should appear. Hope that helps. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
[VIHUELA] Re: early music in the 19th century
Quite lovely! __ From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 6:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] early music in the 19th century Napoleon Coste was interested in music by Robert de Visee. See four of his arrangements here: http://youtu.be/Ypx1_5daSpQ David -- *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[VIHUELA] Re: 3 short pieces from the Ulm MS for mandore
Very nice... I would love to see this ms some day. Your little guitar sounds very nice. As for tuning the mandore, I believe the Chancy ms has three different tunings. His ms seems to be for a plectrum -- well, I was taught that he marks up and down strokes, so that would indicate. He doesn't give absolute pitches, he just tunes to the frets. But the tunings are (from memory): --h D --a--f- A -a--f-- D a-- G --h D --a--f- A -a--h-- D a-- A --h D --a--f- A -a--e-- D a-- F# The last one is pretty interesting, for the second suite. But I haven't managed to pull the whole suite together yet. Drat... I hope I haven't stuck my foot into it -- I need to pull the ms out of storage and verify that these really are the tunings he has. Between work and the guitar, I'm afraid my poor mandore has languished. As have my powers of memory. cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2012 11:12 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 3 short pieces from the Ulm MS for mandore On 08/01/2012 12:48, Monica Hall wrote: The Scottish, Skene mandore MS is more well known but the Ulm MS of French mandore music (of the same time) is very good too. And the pieces are much more carefully notated. Here are a couple of courantes and a gavotte - played on a very small guitar with a string length of 37 cms. Perhaps there were at least two sizes of mandore: the really tiny (c. 30cm string length), four-course mandore (some Ulm stuff, Chancy) , played with a plectrum and a slightly larger, five course instrument ((Skene, Ulm, Gallot) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnC0b9w8QyU Stuart Very nice but what is mandore tuning in this context? Thanks. I don't know what you mean 'context'? I think the tuning of the mandore at the time of its popularity was more or less fixed... apart from the first course. So a four-course mandore was 5-4-5 (e.g.: g-d-g-d) and a five-course instrument was 4-5-4-5 (e.g.: d-g-d-g-d). Of course the actual pitch might be different. But on either four- or five-course instruments the top course could be re-tuned: e.g. a tone lower. But the bottom courses were not re-tuned. So the mandore tuning is quite different from the mandolino tuning in fourths (but not that that difference makes it a different instrument). Stuart Stuart Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
I just found this -- a thesis by Natasha Frances Miles submitted to the
University of Birmingham. Time permitting, I intend to give it a
read. I can't imagine the guitar didn't enjoy certain burlesque
qualities from time to time, and I can't imagine the young upstarts in
court would have been able to resist... Calls for order, sweetness,
and dignity notwithstanding. This paper might touch on that.
The Baroque Guitar as an Accompaniment Instrument
for Song, Dance and Theatre
http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/1600/1/Miles11MPhil.pdf
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Eloy,
I'm very much with Monica on this: what little evidence we have (such
as Millioni) suggests a certain refinement in strumming (... in this
way the music will be rendered more sweetly.). And the iconography
(
not much to go on I confess) seem to predominate with people playing
in
quite a dignified posture as befitting their station.
I think the great danger is looking back and assuming a later style
was
generally employed in earlier times. So that, for example, the
exciting
cross rythms found in Murcia's Spanish dances (post-1700) with their
wonderful and intricate cross rythms and the like becomes a fertile
breeding ground for the modern imagination ('thrashing about') - but
not often, I suggest, to the advantage of the music itself.
Moulinie's fine collection of 1629 with some songs to the guitar is
often overlooked, being neither a Spanish or Italian source. But we
must recall that Francois XIII's wife Anne of Austria was a Spanish
infanta and introduced Spanish tastes to the French court. Moulinie
employed tablature in block chords since, presumably, so few in Paris
at the time were familar with alfabeto. But this is a benefit in
disguise allowing us to clearly see the strumming pattern he expected
with each chord - another useful guide to early 17th century guitar
performing practice. Incidentally he calls his 5 course instrument
just
plain ' guitarre' without any Spanish qualifier..
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 19/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
To: Eloy Cruz [3]eloyc...@gmail.com
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 19:44
You are right - we know very little about how they actually strummed.
Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not giving
much
away..
These will give more pleasure if played with three or four fingers
of
the
right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all
the
strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in this
way
the music will be rendered more sweetly.
As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small
number of
sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are two
printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book and a
collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few
manuscript
sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that the
strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part.
There
are
also pieces in the books of Colonna and Foscarini's 1629 book which
seem to
be song accompaniments although they don't include the words. These
also
have strumming patterns based on note values.
Not much to go on.
I do whether the people who performed these songs in the early 17th
century
would have gone in for flamenco style strumming. They were not
peasants or
little people and they might have regarded it as beneath their
dignity to
imitate what the lower orders did.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Eloy Cruz [1][5]eloyc...@gmail.com
To: Vihuela List [2][6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List
Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso
continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with
how
to
conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with
strumming.
I think the 2 main features of guitarra espanola de cinco ordenes
are
on
one
hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions-
and an
apparently limited palette. On the other
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
As a relative newcomer to early music (less than a decade), I want to second this point. The right hand is quite important. When teaching guitar to youngsters I try to explain that the right hand is far more important than the left. To illustrate, I play lots of left-hand notes and chords with a mechanical right hand, and then play a single note or chord with a musical right hand... Then ask them, which is a song? It's unfortunate indeed that there is so little guidance in this regard. Not just for technique, but for musicality. I know there's a lot of deprecation toward thrashing about on the guitar. But where does reasonable expression end and thrashing begin? How much of modern techniques such as Flamenco, chitarra battente, or the wide range of Latin American techniques echo early practice? How much have these techniques suffered genetic drift? Has strumming the guitar drifted as far afield as the catholic sects of Northern New Mexico drifted from the dictates of the church? Can we discern original sensibilities in what survives today? Oh, how I wish I would win the lottery, and quit work! cud __ From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 11:47 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo Dear List Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with how to conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with strumming. I think the 2 main features of guitarra espanola de cinco ordenes are on one hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions- and an apparently limited palette. On the other (right) hand, and much more characteristically, strumming. When dealing with an alfabeto piece (a solo or a song) the problem of harmony is solved by the alfabeto itself (inconsistencies aside). If the player wants to give some different colors to harmony, he can use alternative higher chord positions (using Sanz's Laberintos, for example). But rasgueado is an entirely different matter. The alfabeto notation gives not one single clue on how to realize it. Most of the time you won't even find indicators of up or down strokes. I know of not one single set of original instructions on how to make it -do someone in the list know something about it? We know about trillo, picco and repicco, and little more, but I think the basic thing about strumming is precisely, strumming. The old ones are clear about this. Sanz: Hagase cuenta que la mano derecha que toca la Guitarra es el Maestro de Capilla que lleva el compas, y los dedos de la mano izquierda son los instrumentos y voces que rige y gobierna por ella. The right hand is the chapel master that rules and conducts the instruments and voices, represented by the left hand fingers. I think strumming itself is a powerful tool to make clear the rhetoric of a piece, particularly a song. I think the main job of a guitar player accompanying a singer, or himself, is to shape harmony with the right hand. As someone put it, to illuminate the text from within. The old ones don't give detailed instructions about strumming because, in my opinion, strumming is an elusive art and science. It's something you learn by playing along with your teacher or with the community. Witness the master strummers of Latin American guitars -each instrument has its own complex and unique strumming language- some of these players have an outstanding level of performance and are as virtuosos in their field as any classic guitar player. They make what many old Spanish sources say: hacen hablar a la guitarra, they make the guitar speak. Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: PROTOCOL OF EMAILS (again...)
I can competently contribute to this topic.
1. Email is fundamentally a social phenomenon. That means lots
of different people are involved. Give up on uniform compliance
to any protocol. Even machines have a hard time doing that.
2. In general, most people stack discussions with the most recent
reply on top. That's probably more laziness than a conscious
decision.
3. Things get hard to follow when people reply top-down
and bottom-up in the same thread. Maybe a good rule of thumb
would be to follow the lead of the first replier? But given
item 1 above, don't hold your breath... You just have to
deal with it.
4. Sometimes replying inline is much easier, and much more
appropriate.
It helps to say that's what you're doing up front. Also, try to
identify your inline statements clearly.
5. It's a good idea to trim the replies after a certain point. Some
mail clients do that automatically. Personally, I tend to forget
to trim replies. Apologies.
6. We're all trying our best to communicate, foibles notwithstanding.
7. About the [VIHUELA] in the subject... Are you doing that manually?
Or is that put in there by the list server? If the latter, there's
nothing to do about it. For me, I get hundreds of emails a day, and
this label is a good way to sort out these most intriguing messages.
If you label the messages manually, I thank you and hope you
continue.
cud
__
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 8:45 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: PROTOCOL OF EMAILS (again...)
I fear this is a lost cause. We will never get everyone to conform.
But I
think that it is usually better to put one's reply at the top of the
message. It is not helpful in anyway to have to scroll though pages of
junk to find out what the writer has said.
Having said that - I think it is sometimes necessary to reply point by
point
to a message rather than in one go. I suppose you could copy and paste
bits from the previous message but that is a bit time consuming.
You are right about the headings. Just one query. Should we always
put
[VIHUELA] before the sugject matter?
Regards
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Cc: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 10:07 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] PROTOCOL OF EMAILS (again...)
I much prefer to have a sequential record of a discussion/thread
rather
than having to go back to laboriously search for the relevant email
to
see precisely what was said umpteen emails ago. As it is, the
well-recognised problem with this particular mode of communication
is
that many/most people often only skim a message (I count myself
guilty
sometimes) and if, by deleting earlier messages, we loose what was
actually said (short of an even more time consuming search of
archives)
then any check on accuracy is also lost.
I also prefer to have the most recent message at the top rather than
mixed in with the previous one (which can lead to selective quotes)
or
at the bottom which, clearly, if a long thread also involves much
scrolling down and time wasting.
Surely if a consistent system is followed whereby messages are
always
replied at the top with the previous ones below in date order then
nothing is lost. If someone doesn't want to scroll down then they
don't
have to.
One other thing: I think it important to change the subject heading
when there's a significant change in content. Some interesting
threads
have subject titles which end up bearing little if any relation to
the
most recent discussion.
Martyn
--- On Sat, 17/12/11, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 15:35
Ah - I think I know what's happening - you've got the wrong end of
the
stick:
I am glad you know what is happening. It all depends on which end
of
the
stick one has got hold of.
I'm not (and have not as far as I can see) suggesting that an
alfabeto accompaniment necessarily converts into a bass line (ie
the
lowest sounding note in each chord would result in the bass line
-
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
I personally don't want to argue this point. First because I'm not
qualified, and secondly because it's not really what I was saying.
Monica, you're absolutely right that by definition it's not continuous
bass when playing derived harmonies in the alfabeto. I was only
supposing that the harmonies are derived from the bass, and informed by
practice of bajo continuo. In that sense, it's a realization of
something, at any rate. And following on what I've read by Craig
Russell, it's possible to imagine that the guitar, limits, quirks, and
all, contributed to the development of harmonic thinking in this way.
__
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:32 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
playing
an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try and
reproduce the bass part in any way.
You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of circumstances.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Lex,
A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass line to
be
realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is where
the
tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble clef)
but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the BC
line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G natural
is
also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual historically)
there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an
octave
higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor has a
d
and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
pieta'
where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in
the
piece.
Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes (or
even an entire passage) up an octave - see Ballard 'Methode pour
apprendre theorbe' (1660) page 10 especially which gives
examples
in staff notation and in tablature showing the necessary octave
transposition for chromatic notes.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Sat, 17/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt [4]eisenha...@planet.nl
wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt [5]eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Martyn Hodgson
[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 8:58
Dear Martyn,
Is there evidence for raising the bass on the theorbo, to even above
the
other voices? I understand that chromatic notes in the bass can be a
problem, but do we know how they solved that?
Lex
ps could you please stop sending the whole thread of the discussion
together
with your newest posts?
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [1][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall [2][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [3][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 9:46 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
But I still don't see, and you don't explain, how other changes
(such
as raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realisation) differs
substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar
As said, maybe we just have to agree to disagree..
rgds
Martyn
--
References
1.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3.
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
I thought one of the significant points of the period was a transition
to harmonic vs voice thinking. And that the guitar was well
positioned, if not instrumental, within that transition. So whether we
call it bajo continuo per se, it's consistent in my mind to consider
alfabeto a realization (stylized, perhaps) of the bass.
Of course, the alfabeto can often oversimplify that realization. I
look at it much the way I look at the song books you can get today,
with guitar chords that gloss over interesting harmonic progressions.
The same music played by the 8th graders I taught would sound very
different from what I would choose to do.
One thing I hear almost everywhere I go is that by and large the
published guitar music is a performance suggestion, not writ.
Everybody I've worked with has blessed changes to fingering, addition
or changes of notes, and encouraged improvisation. The Sanz book is
viewed as a lesson book, not a book of pieces that are to be played
exactly as written, for example. With Roncali I was chastised for not
improvising. So why would alfabetos be any different?But does that
make them any less realizations of the bass? If we're talking about
pre-harmonic thinking, where else would the alfabetos come from?
cud
__
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:41 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Monica,
It is a realisation of the bass line but, because of the requirements
of the instrument, not always with the written bass part as the
lowest
note on the guitar: I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on
this.
Incidentally, the practical considerations for the theorbo also
applies
to earlier music (eg Monteverdi et als) as well as Locke and later.
regards
Martyn
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 20:17
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:25 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Hmmm... Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line? Of
course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many
theorbo
continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass
because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower
register
(or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than
some
of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke
anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low
Eb
will have to be taken at the octave higher (and above the second
and
third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E
elswhere
in the work.
I don't think this is really relevant as we were discussing the very
early
17th century Italian repertoire - specifically alfabeto
accompaniments.
A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the
bass
note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the
guitar
has
bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but
if
not
then elsewhere in the full chord.
The point is that it that it may not do. The bass is the lowest
part.
We, and others, have often pointed
out that the peculiar stringing of the guitar (with high octaves
outwards etc) when strummed produces block chord sounds rather
than
a
contrapuntal accompaniment - I see no practical reason why this
isn't a
realisation (ie a conversion into sound, a making known of) the
harmonies implied/required by the bass.
That may your interpretation of realizing a basso continuo part but I
don't
think that it is anyone elses.
Of course, a melodic bass
instrument is these situations is a bonus: but also note the
discussion
sometime ago about Marini's songs and the use of a seperate bass
with
the guitar...
I think I made it quite clear when we discussed this before that I do
not
think that the separate bass line is intended to be performed with
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
For pipi runs, it isn't explicit in the manuscript, but what about the last variation of the Sanz Folias? There are passages with runs on the 4th and 5th courses -- to play them with thumb-only down strokes imposes a strict speed limit (and he tells you to run away with this variation), and even played slowly it lacks fluidity. I have found that pipi works very well for this variation, on the lower and the higher courses. Again, I have no authority to say what the actual practice would have been. But logic of the hand dictates something other than p. cud __ From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 3:45 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges Normally the fingers and the thumb stay in their own domain, on lower and higher courses. Also on the guitar. I don't think so. Certainly not in guitar music. Use of alternating finger and thumb over different courses is a feature of the music in Bartolotti's first book and elsewhere. e.g. The Bartolotti ciaccona seems to be the one exception. In the rest of the book there are very few right-hand fingerings (with dots), for some single notes on the 4th course. Certainly no p-i-p-i runs, and completely unproblematic with bourdons There are lots of place in Foscarini - where passing notes on the 4th and 5th courses really belong to the upper melody - the Corrente detta la Fauorita on p.60 for example. How do you know? Foscarini used bourdons, and he was not really a campanela man. [about Bartolotti's gigue from the 2nd book, p 7] I actually made a staff notation transcription of the opening bars of this piece some time ago including the octave doubling - and no, I haven't misunderstood.The first four notes sound in the upper register (they do when you play it anyway). Then the intervals of the theme are inverted so that the theme is split into two with a little question and answer which creates some variety instead of having it exactly the same. It doesn't have to belong to the bass at all. This is only true if you have no bourdons at all, as three of the first four notes are on the 4th course. Since you imply that you have listened carefully to my recordings, I fear that your ear is insensitive for lower frequencies. Almost no one who performs Bartolotti's music seems to think that it is written with re-entrant stringing in mind. Stadivarius instruments are apparently regarded as untypical. Bartolotti wouldn't have played one (he was dead by 1688) and may not have had a slotted bridge so wouldn't have been able to make the adjustments you say you make. Bartolotti lived in France. Some Voboams seem to have slots. Who knows who invented those. Besides, I'm sure we don't know all about Italian guitars. And he would have been using plain gut strings not nylgut. Please explain what would be the difference, for voice leading etc. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)
Just to clarify, I didn't mean to say I had trouble fully playing adjacent double courses. I was talking about trouble when playing pipipi on the same course. If anything (for me, at least), to get an even balance of bordon and treble on a course for p and for i, I would want the surface height to be equal for both courses. In that way, I can plan to brush my fingers and thumb across an equally horizontal surface. With the surface of a bordon higher than the treble, I would have to roll my hand back to try and coax an upward stroke out of the thumb, and a downward stroke of the fingers (relatively speaking). That would be too much for my feeble brain, I'm afraid. It's easier for me to conceive of a plane that has targets to strike, and then adjust how I strike it (more horizontally when playing double courses). But conceptually, the adjustment for a given effect is the same for all fingers (and thumb). When running pipi on the same course, it's pure laziness and bad technique that keeps me from playing the full course. And I pointed out a problem with bordones for that technique, where the finger stroke is accented more than the thumb. Raising the bordon (lowering the treble) would only aggravate that for me. But again, my technique may not be appropriate... I really don't know. I'm just doing what produces a convincing sound *to me*, and hoping it's ate least acceptable to the rest of the world. __ From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 4:34 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges) Hi Martyn, I agree with Chris: thumb-out does not inhibite playing through both strings of a double course. It makes it more difficult to go deeper into the low octave string than the high octave. What I said is that if thumb and fingers are close (at adjacent courses) there is the difficulty of both going deep into the course. If the thumb should go deep, to play a good bass, the fingers can easily miss the second string of the course. That is something Chris also seemed to conclude. In this respect thumb-in is is different. Neither need (or should) the thumb and finger ends meet using thumb-out as you suppose: the thumb is slightly forward of the fingers. Probably the best historic representation of this from around the time (second half 17thC) is Charles Mouton's hand position (on a lute) in the well known painting and engraving. You mean the de Troy painting? What would Mouton have done when the thumb and fingers had to play adjacent courses? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)
Well, for the last statement -- plucking adjacent courses -- I would say that it depends on your goal with the body of the right hand. If the goal is as I've been taught, which is to keep the hand as inert as possible (which gives it its weight), then you have no choice but to strike downward with both p and i. It's hard to cultivate the motion, but it's similar to snapping your fingers. You have to really work on it I suppose, but the idea is to make it automatic. In order to pluck upward with p and i at the same I would need to pull up with my hand. For me, that spoils all preparation for the next notes. I really don't know what would have been done in the time, but unless I'm convinced otherwise, I would like to keep with an inert hand (as much as I'm able). As for campanelas, for me the issue goes away because I don't use bordones. The day will come, I suppose, and I'll fight with it then. __ From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:21 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges) But if we pluck THROUGH the course, (ie parallel to the plane of the belly) one can achieve a much greater amplitude without the string slapping rattleing on the fingerboard/belly and thus will have a strong bass (as well as its octave) - as I think, the Old Ones would have generally expected. There is not much disagreement about this. I only would add that striking parallel is perhaps not always the best solution. Probably not in campanelas and, reversely, also not when playing a bass on a baroque guitar. And I think that, on adjacent courses, striking completely parallel (all 4 strings involved) with both thumb and fingers is not really easy. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
The way I learned it was to use the weight of my hand. If the hand is more inert, and the fingers do the moving, then the strings have to give way. With a good angle of the hand, the fingers (thumb included) push through, and the release of the string is from tension pushing the string down. This is desirable because the guitar bridge rocks fore and back (opposed to a violin bridge that rocks side to side), and the strongest angle of the string vibration is up/down, to accommodate that. As I learned it, the trick is all in the angle of the hand, and letting the hand's weight do much of the work. For early instruments that may not be appropriate -- I understand this. For example, you need to control the weight of the hand much more, or else you get rude sounds out of the strings -- snapping, twanging, etc. I also have to roll my hand forward to use more of the pad of my thumb. But I still find that both fingers and thumb put downward pressure on the strings, double-course or not. All that said, I haven't seen any contemporary descriptions of this aspect of right hand technique. Now, for quick runs I actually use thumb/index quite often (again, with no regard to appropriateness). I keep my thumb out, and try not to rock my hand back and forth. When the passage is quite rapid (for me) I then tend to only strike one of the two strings on a course. That's bad technique, and it does seem to be an upward stroke, if even just slightly. But since I don't use bordones, I get away with being lazy on this. With bordones I would have to use thumb down strokes exclusively to get an even tone from note to note. Or with thumb/index, the phrasing would stress the index finger, which is backward, isn't it? pIpIpIpI would be the effect with bordones, while I can get PiPiPi without them (where the capital letter indicates the accented stroke). (DISCLAIMER -- I'm not trying to open the bordones issue, just describing how I play.) cud __ From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com I have to take issue with the idea that thumb-out will tend toward an upward stroke (if I understand what you mean by thumb-out). Indeed, I've always played thumb-out, coming to Baroque guitar from the modern guitar. One thing I have always trained my hand to do (thumb included) is to push down through the string. I find that I can do this on a double course as well with decent results (well, one needs other judges, doesn't one). I find that I have to modulate that a bit, and reduce the downward stroke. But the point is, with thumb-out I have to cultivate a tendency for an upward stroke, not try to overcome it. Anecdotal, but that's my experience... Thumb-out puts me in the opposite situation from what you describe. cud __ That is interesting, Chris. I would think that the more the thumb goes down, the more the fingers go up (?) It also depends on how much your fingers are bent. With thumb out there is considerably more 'risk' of hitting only one of the strings of the pair, with the finger. I would aim for a downward tendency for both thumb and fingers as much as possible, which requires to find a balance. With thumb inside technique both the thumb and the fingers will naturally be directed downwards. It can give a pleasant tone, but maybe it is not so good for strumming. Lex -- References 1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
Well, my guitar has holes for the bridge. I can't comment on the historical accuracy of it. In my imagination, I always assumed the use of slots gave you the option to adjust the spacing between strings on a course. Maybe different players had different preferences. Or maybe you needed more or less space to account for different thicknesses of strings (bordones), or tension. You don't want strings slapping against each other. That's the only advantage I could imagine in slots over holes. __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 3:43 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges Dear Monica, As far as I can see, the evidence from extant instruments seems to be that slotted bridges were often employed in the 17th century, especially by French makers; Italian makers seemingly preferring a bridge with individual string holes (tho' there are exceptions). Good extant examples include the Rene Voboam of 1641 (Ashmolean) which has a highly and individually decorated bridge in the same style as other decoration on the instrument and thus seems to be orginal. Various Alexandre Voboam guitars also have slotted bridges which I believe are orginal (or at least 17th century) since by the 18th century most/all bridges seemed to have string holes. However the picture is far from clear and the waters are further muddied by replacement bridges. One explanation has been that slotted bridges allow more adjustment of string height at the bridge but, in my experience, there is no very significant difference whether tied from the top or bottom of the slot since static forces will always tend to pull the point where the string passes over its own loop to the mid point between top and bottom. A more reasonable explanation it that it increases flexibility of the bridge and thus enhances the bass response. But much speculation all round Martyn --- On Sun, 27/11/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitar bridges To: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 27 November, 2011, 19:29 This is just a quick query to everyone who plays the baroque guitar - about bridges. Mine has slots rather than holes which the strings pass through when they are tied to the bridge. Is this usual on baroque guitars. Is there any standard arrangement. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Branle de St Nicolas for guitar
I have the Chancy tabs, but they're packed away at the moment. I should be able to get at them, scan this branle, and send it off on Wed or so. A word of warning, the mandore (the Chancy tabs are for mandore, not mandora) is strung with 4 strings, and there are various tunings. So there's no telling how useful this version might be for you. Given enough time I could record it for you as well so you can hear it... Not having the tabs in hand, is it true that I'm looking for Branle de St. Nicholas (spelling notwithstanding)? Is that the name that will be in the tabs? This manuscript has a collection of 6 branles, and I want to make sure I get the right one... Sorry, but I wouldn't know it by sound. I would ask just one favor in return... How do you pronounce Branle? cud __ From: Rockford Mjos rm...@comcast.net To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 7, 2011 1:41 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Branle de St Nicolas for guitar I am working on a program for December and have been collecting pieces related to the December holiday season. I have already gathered many settings of En m'en revenant / Branle de St. Nicolas / More Palatino with the intention of picking some of the nicer settings and ornamentation and arranging it for guitars and/or lutes (there are three of us playing with several instrument possibilities). Ruth van Braak Griffioen's book Jakob van Eyck's Der Fluyten Lust-Hof has a very long listing of settings of this tune. (Though for some reason she missed the Rowallen Swit St. Nikolas (going by memory on that title). She lists two setting for baroque guitar, both titled Branle de St. Nicolas: F-Psg MS 2344 (1649) F-Psg MS 2351 (mid 17c) and one for mandora (by Chancy) Might anyone be able to share tablatures of any of these settings? -- R To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Copyrights (was Guitar continuo example)
That's an interesting summary to read. I think there's a gray area here between scholarly work and performance. There's no doubt that a scholar should get his (or her) due for intellectual exertions. The question is, what is that due? When a scholar publishes a historical text, then to see that text I have to buy it. The scholar gets paid. If I read from that text in a public performance, does the scholar deserve royalties for that reading? I don't know. Should publishers of new versions of the Bible collect royalties every time their versions are read in a sermon? I guess the lesson here is that you should go to the source. If the edition didn't add anything to the performance that couldn't have come from a reading of the original, then why didn't Hyperion just go to the original? The realization of a historical recording is not just a matter of playing notes. It's a matter of historical research -- players need to study their history. And if the edition of some music adds historical insight, then that is part of the realization. So does this mean that I can't play for profit any pieces in the Libro de Diferentes Cifras without setting aside royalties for F. A. Valdivia (and possible those who collaborated)? Even if I disagree with some of the edits and play the pieces differently? Thank goodness I'm an amateur! cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 9:37 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example Dear Ralf, I recall that the heart of the Hyperion case was that the editor had introduced new material into the edition by virtue of the new typesetting and perhaps there were also corrections/performance practice notes and the like - I can't recall the exact details. Many of us were, and remain, puzzled at the ruling and for a short time it seemed that Hyperion (a fairly small specialist label) might have to close (its costs were quite significant). Happily that proved not to be the case. Finally, 'All rights reserved' refers to rights assigned to such a publication by the law: it is by virtue of such legal rulings that publishers hold these rights. If you're interested in the bacground and legal arguments, there are summaries of the case, known as Sawkins v Hyperion Records Ltd 2005, on various sites such as [1]www.4-5graysinnsquare.co.uk/news/index.cfm?id=1391 regards Martyn --- On Tue, 10/5/11, R. Mattes [1]r...@mh-freiburg.de wrote: From: R. Mattes [2]r...@mh-freiburg.de Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Rockford Mjos [4]rm...@comcast.net, Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 10 May, 2011, 10:27 On Tue, 10 May 2011 09:35:05 +0100 (BST), Martyn Hodgson wrote Dear Ralf, Prima la musica is a very reputable small publishing firm (one man I think - Brian Clark) producing limited runs of specialist early music editions. This might well be - looking at their website gives that impreession. But ... I'd guess the ARR tag is used, as by other commercial publishers, to try and ensure they are paid a royalty when anyone uses their edition for public performance or commercial recording. This practice has, I think, become even more widespread since the court case a few years ago involving Hyperion records. ... I still fail to see what gives them the right to do so. All rights reserved means what it says: _All rights_, not just you can't legaly photocopy this music. Royalties? A _composer_ (and a performer, in case of recordings) gets royalties, _not_ a publisher (note: in the US a composer might sell/sign over these rights to a publisher, but I doubt Sign. Albrici did this). They simply claim rights they do not hold. Does it matter? Unfortunately yes. Next time I perform this little gem in a public performance I have to prove to some dork from german GEMA that noone holds performance right on the piece. An a quick google will lead him to this edition (unfortunately, in Germany, thank's to the GEMA Vermutung one has to prove that some music is free, not the other way round, as it should be). If 'Prima la musica' is a member of some copyright association then GEMA might sue me (on behalf of Prima la Musica). Which might result in me having to counter-sue Prima la musica for unjustly claiming performance right - probably _not_ what they intended I'm not taking
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example
The music could have been impossible to perform because of the condition of the manuscript. Some significant number of notes may have been obscured, for example. Or perhaps the music was scattered across different manuscripts or versions, and the editor compiled these instances into a single edition. You can't accept the assertion out of hand, but you can't reject it out of hand either. __ From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 10:03 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar continuo example On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:37:10 +0100 (BST), Martyn Hodgson wrote If you're interested in the bacground and legal arguments, there are summaries of the case, known as Sawkins v Hyperion Records Ltd 2005, on various sites such as www.4-5graysinnsquare.co.uk/news/index.cfm?id=1391 Thanks for the link. One intersting question: did the performers of the hyperion record actually _use_ the edition? Sacry quote: The response of the claimant, which the judge accepted, was that none of the music could have been played or performed by using any of the earlier extant Lalande scores. Poor old french musicians from the baroque - living in a time with such wonderfull music that they could not perform :-/ Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Not referring to the specific manuscript, but... I don't see any musical inconsistency in marking a LH position in preparation. LH preparation is one of those things so common in guitar that I believe it isn't written down anywhere -- not even in modern methods. Or at least, I've never seen it, only heard it discussed. And you'll see beginners actually do it instinctively. I often play a full chord position when only some notes are indicated. It covers the ground in case of RH mistakes, allows for a strum if the music can stand the added energy, and leaves room for the occasional RH flourish. In the case of the RH technique discussed here, it makes sense to me that the first 4 beats are a flourish preparing for the final harmonic completion in the last two... with everything ringing as much as possible. At least that's how my first attempts would be. __ From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, April 28, 2011 10:07:11 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones On Apr 25, 2011, at 10:47 PM, Monica Hall wrote: You should play 4 down/up/down/up strokes on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd courses and 2 - down/up on the 4th/5th. That's assuming that Corbetta himself has not got in a muddle. Hope that helps. Thanks for semi-clearing this up. Well, at least the down/up part makes sense and that was the way I was doing it. It is often confusing in these old sources as to what is top and high and up and down, for example up the neck Going from top (in pitch) down might take some getting used to, for me, as I've been playing it the other way. It doesn't make musical sense to me either. Since the fingering change happens on what we call the 4th and 5th courses, what would be the point of putting those changes on the first beat of the bar if you were not playing them until the 5th strum? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1][1]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [2][2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. [3]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 2. [4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 3. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
in the same way changing the fingering as you commence the first of each six. This is why you will find an f that indicates that you strike rather strongly on the first stroke and in this way the batterie will be more delicate. Italian Preface You will see an example of a repicco placed in a ciaccona [on p.72], where the longer tail to the note signifies the thumb; having already begun with the fingers [i.e. played the chord once with all four fingers], then do the same, upwards with the thumb, making the same upwards. Observe that the four tied notes signify that one must first make the note with second finger and then with the first close to it, and thus again as upstrokes at a quicker tempo, and continue with the fingers and thumb. In another next ciaccona [on p.75] you will see another repicco already placed in the press where to confusion I have place the same more perfect thing. Where you see six quaver strokes, play four of them from the third course downwards, and moving the hand make the next two strokes on the other two courses, the first and second i.e. 5th 4th], without touching the others [1st , 2nd 3rd]. After changing the fingers on the frets, play in the same way for the other six quavers, and changing the fingers at the next four, strike the first quaver loudly, and the other three softly. Do the same on changing the fingers at the other [groups of four] until the first six begin again. Where you find an f this means play the first of the four beats loudly, and thus you will achieve a beautiful repicco. Marchetti's exlanation of the repicco is much simpler... The repicco is made giving four strokes, that is two down and two up. The first stroke is played downwards with the middle finger and the second down with the thumb; the third stroke is played upwards with the thumb and the fourth up with the index finger playing however [with the index finger] only the cantino, or first course. One repicco equals two strokes. Over to you now... Monica And Monica has translated Foscarini's instructions on playing the Trillo, Picco and Repicco in her essay 'Giovanni Paulo Foscarini: Plagiarist or Pioneer? (at the very end) [1][6]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ (and there is another translation of Foscarini in Tyler's 'The Early Guitar'.) And looking at all that, many people (like me) probably decide to give up! Maybe the really showy stuff is for some alfabeto and/or for some chaconnes/passaccales rather than general application in mixed tablatures? Taro Takeuchi has evolved some impressive sounding strumming techniques and he has not used flamenco techniques. I was interested in Chris's first chord in the Roncall Preludio because it sounds quite different from other strums I've heard. Stuart - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [2][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuela Dmth [3][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Chris Despopoulos [4][9]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; Early Guitar Dmth [5][10]early-gui...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 9:57 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To Vihuela (early guitar) list: The aside by Chris on the 'trill' he was taught to execute raises an important issue not, I think, much discussed: the precise manner of strumming used by the Old Ones. The repertoire of strumming styles used by players of the 'baroque' guitar these days often seems to me to more related to modern robust flamenco play than the precise technique used by earlier players (at least based on what they wrote). Chris's description of his strum is, of course, similar to the 'repicco' described by Corbetta in his 1671 collection (NB bourdon on 4th course!). Translation of extract 'Note that the four tied beats strike down the first note with the middle finger then with the index and then the same as upstroke' (I hope this is accurate if not a a literal translation). That an experienced player Stuart thought it a new (to him) style of strumming may perhaps illustrate how many of us (me included!) fail to adhere always to the earlier instructions. Incidentally, I think to call it a trill (or more correctly 'trillo') as Chris was told, is perhaps wrong: my understanding of this term
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Dear Martyn... Well, I called this thing a trill -- the term tillo never passed my lips (or fingers, I guess). I understood it as trill, sitting in a class given in another language... And my hearing has deteriorated with the years, I might add. I thought the word was trino, which I believe is trill in Spanish. In that formulation alone I see at least three opportunities for error... Does trino = trill? Did he say trino or trillo? Does trino = trillo? Did I play the thing right? You give me far too much credit! And indeed, I hope to inquire about the sources... Anyway, I had hoped to open up this line of discussion. I'm glad for it, and hope to learn as a result! Many thanks to all... cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 6:01:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Chris, I'm sure it's wise for us all to explore these things further and with care and reference to the sources. Regarding courses: I'm not sure if I'd accept as gospel some personal assertion of preference not backed up by hard evidence - whoever the tutor may be! It is interesting in this context that you were told this strum was a 'trillo' whereas it is clearly a repicco since it employs more than the index finger alone. best wishes Martyn --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Stuart Walsh [5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 10:12 Allow me a few points: I don't believe my so-called trill is part of the flamenco technique. Perhaps that's why I accepted it so readily! But I'm not aware of any flamenco performances using this approach. For a rolling continuation of strums Flamenco seems to use all four fingers, sometimes followed by an upstroke of the index to give 5 beats in one. That said, if the ring finger is never used in a strum, then this trill is indeed an anachronism. It uses i and a. I'll add that the wrist is indeed still, and you can anchor your hand with your thumb. Historically accurate or not, it is an interesting right-hand technique, and it can be used elsewhere I'm sure. So now I wonder how to achieve an indefinitely long rolling of strums. I'll try to work out these translations of instructions to see what can happen... right-hand control is always good. Indeed, the right hand is probably the more important hand with the guitar. You can play hundreds of notes with your left hand, but if the right hand is dead, you'll play hundreds of dead notes. On the other hand (no pun intended), if you can only play a single note with your left hand but your right hand is capable of exquisite variations, you will exquisitely express that note every time. Finally, with luck I'll soon attend another course where I can inquire into the sources for this interesting little trill. cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Stuart Walsh [9]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 3:57:29 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Stuart, Thanks for this. I do hope you won't really give up! Like you I'm sometimes reluctant to be quite so strict about what strum I employ but I think, also like you, I'm aware of the historical instructions. I do think these strums were part of general play as, indeed, required by Corbetta (as well as de Visee et al - note his careful use of strum requiring a thumb and strum without - how often is this adhered to?). And I've given an example of the double upstroke to numerous Allemandes which I suggest are better played this way (ie double upstroke executed by the middle and first finger being well seperated and strumming upwards). I think the Roncalli 'strum' is a red herring!: in fact for this chord Roncalli employs the well recognised guitar sign also used in contemporary tiorba tablatures for an extended arpeggio. But Chris's use of a flamenco
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Dear Martyn... Without a doubt, you referred to the trillo in this discussion. I'm only saying that I never called this thing that I executed by the name, trillo. I had assumed it was a trill (perhaps out of ignorance, language difficulties, and bad hearing). But I think we're in violent agreement that it is not a trillo. __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 10:30:55 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Chris, I had thought I used Corbetta's own word 'trillo' for the particular strum with an up and down movement of the index only. And, indeed, as you'll see from the below - I did! Dunno where tillo, trino etc come from. regards Martyn --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 11:36 Dear Martyn... Well, I called this thing a trill -- the term tillo never passed my lips (or fingers, I guess). I understood it as trill, sitting in a class given in another language... And my hearing has deteriorated with the years, I might add. I thought the word was trino, which I believe is trill in Spanish. In that formulation alone I see at least three opportunities for error... Does trino = trill? Did he say trino or trillo? Does trino = trillo? Did I play the thing right? You give me far too much credit! And indeed, I hope to inquire about the sources... Anyway, I had hoped to open up this line of discussion. I'm glad for it, and hope to learn as a result! Many thanks to all... cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 6:01:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Chris, I'm sure it's wise for us all to explore these things further and with care and reference to the sources. Regarding courses: I'm not sure if I'd accept as gospel some personal assertion of preference not backed up by hard evidence - whoever the tutor may be! It is interesting in this context that you were told this strum was a 'trillo' whereas it is clearly a repicco since it employs more than the index finger alone. best wishes Martyn --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos [1][8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2][9]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Martyn Hodgson [3][10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica Hall [4][11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Stuart Walsh [5][12]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [6][13]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 10:12 Allow me a few points: I don't believe my so-called trill is part of the flamenco technique. Perhaps that's why I accepted it so readily! But I'm not aware of any flamenco performances using this approach. For a rolling continuation of strums Flamenco seems to use all four fingers, sometimes followed by an upstroke of the index to give 5 beats in one. That said, if the ring finger is never used in a strum, then this trill is indeed an anachronism. It uses i and a. I'll add that the wrist is indeed still, and you can anchor your hand with your thumb. Historically accurate or not, it is an interesting right-hand technique, and it can be used elsewhere I'm sure. So now I wonder how to achieve an indefinitely long rolling of strums. I'll try to work out these translations of instructions to see what can happen... right-hand control is always good. Indeed, the right hand is probably the more important hand with the guitar. You can play hundreds of notes with your left hand, but if the right hand is dead, you'll play hundreds of dead notes. On the other hand (no pun intended), if you can only play a single note with your left hand but your right hand is capable of exquisite variations, you will exquisitely express
[VIHUELA] Re: Early guitar image
I can't say whether it looks like a 5-course instrument -- the image is too small for me to make out the pegs. But it looks well enough like a baroque guitar to me. OTOH, I can't say anything about the gentleman's garb. Is it baroque, or earlier? I just don't know enough about costume of the period... I can't say why but it seems a little off to me. cud __ From: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, April 17, 2011 1:01:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Early guitar image Dear List, Does this look like a 5-course baroque guitar to you? I'm wondering whether to use this as an illustration of an early guitar and perhaps be even more specific (5-course?), but I wanted to see what list members think. I need to use a public domain image. Here's the link: [1]http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-photo-7536315-love.php Many thanks, Jocelyn To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-photo-7536315-love.php 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: With/Without Bordones
Hi Stuart... Thanks The effect on that A (er G) chord was taught to me in a class of rasgueados for baroque guitar... They called it a trill. Basically, it's alternating up/down strokes between two fingers. If U is up and D is down, then the gesture is: Da, Di, Ua, Ui -- repeated for the duration of the note. Yes, I use the ring finger. But it turns out I use the ring finger for nearly every rasgueado. I just have to shrug off any chastisement for anachronism there, because I don't know that I could manage it any other way. __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 1:55:20 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] With/Without Bordones On 16/04/2011 16:56, Chris Despopoulos wrote: I've recorded a few pieces now with a bordon on the D course -- Suite by Roncalli, Paracumbe, and Folias by Sanz. These are compared to similar recordings I did without the bordon. Oddly enough, the earth did not crack open and swallow my guitar, flaming toads did not fall from the sky, and gravity as we know it still holds sway. I'm inclined to view the results along the lines of speaking a language with an accent... Perhaps the emPHAsis is placed on differENT syllABles, but the import is generally the same, and the ability to move the listener rests entirely with the speaker regardless of his or her accent. I've found that the bordon reveals some aspects of a piece I may not have noticed otherwise, but nothing earth-shattering. I may try to record a few other pieces with a bordon just to be thorough. (And I suppose I should try this exercise with bordones on two courses...) For my own pleasure I want to get back to fully re-entrant tuning, but that's just a personal and possibly temporal preference. If you're interested, you can hear the results at: [1][1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Cheerscud -- Chris You certainly play with a lot of fire! I think the bordon on the D course does make quite a difference - a darker sound maybe, or more depth. And, of course you now have extra notes below the third course. How do you get that effect on the letter A (chord of G) in the first bar of the Roncalli Prelude? Stuart. References 1. [2]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 2. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: a little Granata experiment
About the octave hopping -- I've noticed that in other works, and in cases that have nothing to do with stringing choices or technical difficulties... Notes that could as easily be played on the higher octave, or even doubled. And playing with bordones does not lead into the jump any differently (as far as I have noticed). I notice some instances in Roncalli, and even in Sanz there are instances that can't be explained by problems of tuning, alone. By the way Stuart, I really enjoy your recording. cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 4:59:06 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: a little Granata experiment On 11/04/2011 09:01, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Regarding the held notes at the conclusion of each half, I think this suggests that these pieces were in fact conceived primarily for performance with the outer bowed instruments mentioned in the title - so that there would be no need to perpetuate the sound over a full (or large part of) long bar by such devices. Although bowed instruments seem to be indicated by the title page (violino e viola), the bass line is lightly figured. Maybe the violist would have added some harmonies. Many of the allemandas have these long empty bars at the end of each half. Even bowed, or on another sustaining instrument, they could sound as is musical activity has temporarily ceased! So plucked instrument strums and/or twiddles (as you suggest Falconieri did) is maybe what is in order. It's interesting that Granata does some 'octave-hopping' in the guitar part - but nothing to do with the tuning. For example, in the E minor Corrente (p.22), bar 4-5. The passage begins with the note b (open string, second course). In the violin part the the note b goes down to g and then up a scale, g,a,b,c#, d, e. But the guitar part begins on b, then jumps up an octave for the g, a, and b then jumps back down to c#, d and e. In the final two bars of the first section the violin part goes from a high g (first course, third fret of guitar) down to b, a and g but the guitar part goes from the high g down to b and back up an octave for the a and g. Probably this is to make the instrument project a bit more - especially if there is a violin playing. But maybe it also shows an attitude of mind about melodic lines on the Baroque guitar. (As Monica has often insisted upon!) Stuart In short, I suggest they were indeed expected to be played as a trio for the best effect. Martyn On 4/7/2011 3:36 PM, Stuart Walsh[1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Granata's Novi Capricci Armonici Musicali in vari toni per la chitarra spagnola, violino and viola concertati et altra sonate per chitarra sola 1674 has pieces for solo guitar and, at the beginning, 12 pieces with a guitar part on the left hand side and then in staff notation (treble and lightly figured bass) on the right. This publication has been discussed before but , as usual, I can't remember the details and don't want to plumb the archives. Gary Boyes [2][2]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html says that these pieces are for violin, guitar and continuo. I think last time the work was discussed somebody said that it might be like some lute trios where there is a lot of doubling (e.g. Hinterleithner and later in the 18th century, Martino and others). But I think it was Monica who thought that these pieces are(or might be) for violin and continuo, and alternatively playable as guitar solos. Anyway, I always thought it would be interesting to hear the guitar part with the bass line. So I've had a shot at one of the pieces, the Alemanda in E minor on page 20 which is quite attractive as a solo. I'm not sure how fast this piece is to go and I'm taking it fairly slowly. That leaves bar 8, the concluding bar of the first section, with one chord for the duration of the whole bar (or almost). That's a lot of space/time with nothing happening. Often in Allemandas, there are some arpeggio twiddles for the first two beats and then a strummed chord. (Most, but not all, of the later solo alemandas in this publication are treated in this way.) [3][3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3 So this is for guitar and a lute playing the bass line. I didn't try and do continuo because I don't know enough about it and, anyway,
[VIHUELA] Roncalli Suite 1 in G maj
Hi All... For your entertainment or whatever else, I posted the full set of movements in this suite - Preludio, Allemanda, Corrente, Gigua, Sarabanda, and Gavotta. Find it near the bottom of the Guitar MP3 player on my page: [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Please excuse any blips and bloops... Just another thing with fully re-entrant tuning... cud -- References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe
Oops... It was late last night. [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Look in the first playlist. I burried it in the middle. Note that it has warts. Also, I assume this is one of those New World dances that has some African influence... Courtly fun taking a cue from the slave trade and all that. Anyway, that's how I tried to read the music... Cheers cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 3:18:29 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Paracumbe On 20/02/2011 23:00, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Hi all... I posted a recording of the Paracumbe por la A from the Libro de Diferentes Cifras, M/811 (1705). Just another re-entrant entry... For what it's worth. cud -- Where? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe
No octave strings on my guitar (for now, anyway). cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 9:43:03 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe Those of you who are familiar with Murcia's well known Cumbees will recognise the opening bars and one or two of the variations are similar as well. Alejandro Vera seems to think it may be by Murcia - who would have been about 30 years old when the ms. was copied - but who knows? Anyway - it seems to work well with the re-entrant tuning (but did I detect a high octave string on the 3rd course?). Otherwise very nice. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 9:16 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe Oops... It was late last night. [1][4]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Look in the first playlist. I burried it in the middle. Note that it has warts. Also, I assume this is one of those New World dances that has some African influence... Courtly fun taking a cue from the slave trade and all that. Anyway, that's how I tried to read the music... Cheers cud __ From: Stuart Walsh [5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Chris Despopoulos [6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 3:18:29 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Paracumbe On 20/02/2011 23:00, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Hi all... I posted a recording of the Paracumbe por la A from the Libro de Diferentes Cifras, M/811 (1705). Just another re-entrant entry... For what it's worth. cud -- Where? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 2. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Paracumbe
Hi all... I posted a recording of the Paracumbe por la A from the Libro de Diferentes Cifras, M/811 (1705). Just another re-entrant entry... For what it's worth. cud -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details
Well, if you were familiar with the work of Lynn Margulis, you would understand that I don't disparage the status of the parasite... There's a convincing argument that parasites were key to the evolution of complex cells, and consequently most of what we experience in life (re-entrant tuning included). But I am really thankful for this list, and for the work y'all do. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:09:21 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details I agree with Jocelyn. Chris - I find your posts refreshing and insightful and I enjoy listening to you playing the music. We are all on a voyage of discovery here and we don't have to come up with neat little answers to every question. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details
I'd like to add my vote for the usefulness of these discussions. I don't have the benefit of a career studying the field, yet I gain the benefit of your scholarship. Parasitic on my part, but it significantly helps to inform my approach to the instrument. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, February 11, 2011 2:28:39 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details That's an interesting summary and very generous of you to say that you find Lex's and my discussion important as I often feel I am wasting everyone's time and getting very cross in the process. The etymology of the term motet is a fascinating topic in its own right. But we had better not start a discussion on that. Best Monica - Original Message - From: Nelson, Jocelyn [1]nels...@ecu.edu To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 6:48 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details Dear List, I listened to an entertaining talk yesterday afternoon on how research worked in the renaissance (it seems research didn't work so well, according to the speaker, who gave us some good laughs during his talk). The poet and scholar Poliziano (1454-1494) made a strong case for the correct spelling of the Roman poet's name, Vergil (Vergilius). His evidence, which was better than the evidence on the opposing side according to the professor giving the talk (such as the poet's spelling preference for his own name), has been ignored ever since--most of us know the poet as Virgil. The talk centered on why the truth was ignored and the difference between truth and influence: we consistently sacrifice truth forusefulness and custom, which is more influential. Some classicists in the room did bring up Virgil's word plays on his own name, and some other Latin and Italian spelling issues, but people generally appreciated his basic premise: that this sacrifice--usefulness over truth--is eventually to our detriment, even when the truth in the short run seems like it doesn't matter. Which brings me back to our conversation about etymology. I was surprised to read Ralf eschew the importance of the original meaning of a style, genre, or technique in musicbecause I happen to come to that particular question from the opposite direction: why wouldn't a performer or scholar in the field of early music want to understand a term's origins? Etymology might be interesting in itself and important in the study of language, but is of no use in a terminological discurse. In what way is the fact that the top voice of a polyphonic piece once was considered a texted version of an untexted clausula (and hence named 'motetus' - with words) relevant to the study of, say, Motets by Marc-Antoine Charpentier? We could argue the relevance of understanding the origins of the motet to an understanding of Charpentier's motets, and we could each make good points (perhaps while entirely convinced the other is wrong). But I'm more interested in how we decide to explore early musical techniques and performance practices. If we're brazen enough to perform music of the distant past, every detail and item of evidence we can find is vital to an understanding of any certain genre or performance practice, even when the final answer doesn't always seem to include many of the details. That's why I wouldn't want to teach the 17^th century French motet literature to students who haven't been through the earlier lectures on the substitute clausulae; in fact, the earlier course is officially a prerequisite for the later course at my school for just that reason. And that's why I find the evidentiary details in the discussion on bourdons between Monica and Lex and others on this list important. I'm grateful to them for taking the trouble to defend their viewpoints with specifics. Best wishes, Jocelyn -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:nels...@ecu.edu 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: bourdons and no bourdons
Nice stuff, Stuart! I'm impressed with how the music sounds like it's coming from two different instruments. An exaggeration maybe, but only a slight exaggeration. The tunes themselves are different in nature, but the treatment really makes a huge difference. Both treatments are excellent -- you play with feeling. cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, February 12, 2011 3:26:53 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] bourdons and no bourdons My guitar is a very, very humble thing: it just doesn't make a great sound. Anyway, a while a go I had it tuned re-entrantly and made a simple recording of 3 easy pieces. [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4gsy_pBqyc And I've now got the guitar with bourdons on fourth and fifth, and bourdon-out (as a lute) so the thumb hits the bass note first. And I've tired three simple pieces (that I had another go at, ages ago). These three pieces are from Selected Pieces from Jacob Kremberg edited by Rocky Mjos. (Good, sturdy tunes, Rocky!) [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCiRDLwo-jI Bearing in mind this isn't a good instrument it still might be interesting how different the guitar sounds in these two contexts. Tuned to a low A, the guitar's lowest note is only a tone higher than the lowest note on a (six-course) lute in G. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Don't get soaked. Take a[4] quick peek at the forecast with the[5]Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4gsy_pBqyc 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCiRDLwo-jI 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail#news 5. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/?fr=oni_on_mail#news
[VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
Well, I can only say, from my own experience and study (such as it is) that it is not a sacrifice to play without bordones. It's different, but no less rich, and certainly no sacrifice... in *my* experience. In fact, it has opened up musical possibilities, as well as technical possibilities I haven't enjoyed before, and that were only hinted at by my experience with the ukulele. This is the experience of somebody who has played the guitar and other plucked instruments in a variety of styles over a period of decades -- but not the experience of a scholar. Nonetheless, I can't emphasize enough that is it no sacrifice to play without bordones, any more than it's a sacrifice to play on six rather than 11 or 13 courses... in my experience. My addmittedly limited experience with an admittedly limited exposure to the repertoire. DISCLAIMER: I'm not taking sides here. I'm just relating my experience. __ From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 4:09:08 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again Stuart Walsh wrote: what do you mean by elaborate treble dominated style? Is it this: a predominantly melodic line interspersed with occasional chords? Which composers are you thinking of? The small amount of fancier music for the English guitar/guittar in the 18th century actually, literally looks like this - melodic lines - single melodic lines and then occasional chords. But five-course guitar music doesn't look like this at all. It looks like there's some kind of bass and treble - it looks like, at least, two part music. And, what's more, it sounds like it. This applies as much for Corbetta in 1643 and Bartolotti in c1655 as for Visee and Granata in the 1680s. This elaborate treble dominated style concept is a someting like modern myth. As is the idea that players would have sacrificed their bourdons for only a fistful of campanela's. Which, at the same time can be performed by making a double use of the lower courses of a bourdon tuning. Campanelas (the real ones) appear for the first time in print in Bartolotti's 1640 book. Bartolotti, as a theorbist, was probably familiar with Kapsberger's cross-string fingerings. In that sphere changing the stringing of the 4th and 5th courses of the guitar would only have been a small step. Considering the polyphonic nature of Bartolotti's music this is more likely than that he dropped his two bourdons. What bothers me is that we seem to be obliged to have an opinion on a very complexe issue, about a large and varied repertoire with many works that not many have ever played (or studied!) themselves. It is a situation which easily leads to over-simplified answers. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again
Like I said, limited experience and limited repertoire. No, I don't. i doubt I would try de Visee without the so-called French tuning. I simply take issue with characterizing the playing without bordones as an inherent sacrifice. It is not. It is simply different. Look, using an instrument to play music is limiting by definition. So is applying any form whatsoever to the music. It's the limits that transform sound into music. Bordones impose their limits, and fully re-entrant tuning imposes limts as well. Assuming one limit or another is not a sacrifice, it's a different perspective. That's all. __ From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 5:30:03 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again Chris, do you also play Bartolotti, Guerau or de Visee without bourdons? Lex - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 11:26 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The stringing of the baroque guitar - again Well, I can only say, from my own experience and study (such as it is) that it is not a sacrifice to play without bordones. It's different, but no less rich, and certainly no sacrifice... in *my* experience. In fact, it has opened up musical possibilities, as well as technical possibilities I haven't enjoyed before, and that were only hinted at by my experience with the ukulele. This is the experience of somebody who has played the guitar and other plucked instruments in a variety of styles over a period of decades -- but not the experience of a scholar. Nonetheless, I can't emphasize enough that is it no sacrifice to play without bordones, any more than it's a sacrifice to play on six rather than 11 or 13 courses... in my experience. My addmittedly limited experience with an admittedly limited exposure to the repertoire. DISCLAIMER: I'm not taking sides here. I'm just relating my experience. To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Some recodrings
Hi all... For what it's worth, I posted a few more recordings on my web site: [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque These include the first Fuga by Sanz, on a fully re-entrant instrument, and the Prelude of Roncalli's Suite 1 in G Maj, also re-entrant. I'm afraid it gets a bit boring because I stuck to pretty much a single mood. Sorry about that. Enjoy (or not), and comments welcome... Cheers cud -- References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Where to end?
I just posted some recordings, and thankfully I did so before reading this: I have no problem with the pavanas played without bourdons. Try listening to Gordon Ferries - or Chris on this list perhaps has recorded it. Just bear in mind that the opening phrase will be doubled in octaves. Why thankfully? Because I didn't end up trying to record this piece, and I can direct you to the following: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHblaa849Z8 By Xavier Diaz-Latorre. I think it's much better than any example you'd get from me. If you haven't listened to his reading of Sanz, I highly recommend it (you can buy the MP3s on Amazon). Keep in mind, this video clip is recorded in his spare bedroom (or something like that) -- he released an album with Pedro Esteban on which he conceives of this piece with rather somber percussion as its flooring. Presumably, Pedro knows what's to be had for percussion in a Pavana. Anyway, las pavanas de Sanz -- sin bordones. cud -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHblaa849Z8 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
Not surprisingly, Sanz indicates trills or mordents for the two lower courses in the first two books: * Marionas in two separate pieces * El que gustare de falsas ponga cuidado en estos cromaticos * Gallardas * Espanoletas #3 * Pasacalles por la O * Clarines y Trompetas __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:41:41 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any early source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of an octave pair - no response so far. No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember the exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to change the stringing. Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this morning I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the 5th but obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer opportunities to fit in ornamentation. Monica From: Stewart McCoy [1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint To: Vihuela List [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47 Dear Martyn, Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect of reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute) stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave to predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a note in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely enhance a bass note on a duff gut string. There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of a course is used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of Haray tre amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|- --|- but sounds as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|--0-- --|- The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a treble at the same time. Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this possibility, but unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be heard only at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a bass note, and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the treble line (as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the high octave, and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below. The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are attempts to overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing serious pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic possibilities of the upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons. Reverse stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth and fifth courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica says, quoting Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We cannot tell from Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly implies that at least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s. Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each guitarist did. I am grateful to Monica for writing: The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de Ribayaz in 1677 .. the earliest mention of the French tuning is in 1670 ... Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing written about stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there is so much controversy. Without evidence, we are forced to rely on our intuition, and to try to glean what we can from the music itself (hence my question about trills notated at the 4th and 5th courses, and my mention of high notes on the 4th and 5th courses in Sanz' Pavanas). Sometimes the answer is obvious. For example, in his recording of music by Franc,ois Campion (Arion ARN68483) Michel Amoricis unfortunately has a bourdon at the fifth course, which wreaks havoc with the campanellas. Other times it is less clear what we should do. By coming to different conclusions, we may
[VIHUELA] Re: Where to end?
I think there is an ambiguity in the guitar's sound. Anecdotal evidence is in the list archives... How often has so-and-so said that a performer did use bordones, while another said he/she didn't, while yet another couldn't tell? I've seen that on this list a few times. __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 6:14:36 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Where to end? Lex has a reasonable point in suggesting that Murcia probably had a particular tuning in mind. If we are aiming to try and recapture the sounds these early players made and heard this surely ought to be the focus of our search. With regard to disjointed part writing indicating a particular tuning, this has been the topic of long threads earlier. For such an peculiar instrument as the early guitar, conclusions based simply on the idea that if a line jumps an octave it must point to a particular stringing seem doubtful. String properties must also be taken into account when considering such a chimera as an octave string on the 3rd course. MH --- On Fri, 4/2/11, Lex Eisenhardt [1]eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: [VIHUELA] Where to end? To: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 4 February, 2011, 10:49 Monica Hall escribio: The point is (I think) that Murcia's music, and for that matter most other baroque guitar music, isn't intended for one method of stringing rather than another. Do we know anything about his intensions with regard to tuning? At least we may assume that he used some method of stringing himself. In out time there has been a lot of disagreement about Murcia's tuning, but that does not say that he would not have cared. It is arranged in such a way that it can be conveniently played on a 5-course instrument and in a way that makes the best use of the limitations which having only 5 courses imposes. It relies on the ambiguous tone quality of the instrument to create the desired effect. What ambiguous tone quality? Arguments about whether the music conforms to the rules of music theory, and the idea that you can leave out one string of a course or strike it in such a way the emphasis falls on one or other string are futile. Why futile? The idea that campanela use of the low courses would point at re-entrant tunings is mere speculation. I think that it grossly underestimates the capacities of the 17th century guitarist. With bourdons you can have it all, bass and treble. Just a matter of an appropriate playing technique. That's not what it is all about Then what is 'it' all about? The whole concept of implied understanding of the intensions of the composer, even if the bass rises above the treble, smells so 'new-agy' to me. Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:eisenha...@planet.nl 2. mailto:eisenha...@planet.nl 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Where to end?
My experience with Sanz and fully re-entrant tuning is that there are two voices, but not necessarily divided into melody and bass. Why can't two sopranos or tenors sing together? The one side is what we think we hear. The other is that if music has two or more voices, which is the often the case with Foscarini, Bartolotti, Visee etc., there is a top melody and a bass. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
To clarify, I do not use an octave on the G course. What I do is finger an octave G on the E course on a very few instances in one piece by Sanz (the 1st fugue), and for perhaps a couple of others (not necessarily Sanz) I'm considering a similar approach. I honestly find that fugue to be the only Sanz piece that really needs it -- otherwise full re-entrance works for me (so far). For me, thinking is the key to doing away with the so-called octave jumps. It's how you think about it. Consider the modern guitar. When playing a modal piece you will use a bass string as a drone. When playing modal passages in a more harmonic piece you will often do the same. Consider modern transcriptions of Sanz's Canarios -- the low E is tuned to a D, and you drone on that quite a lot. Well, what if that drone is notated at a place where a higher D makes sense with the melodic line? Would you call that an octave jump? I believe most modern guitarists would not, because our ears are accustomed. For me the trick with re-entrant tuning is to realize that the bass is grounded in the 3rd course. And so the music often leans on that grounding course in ways that are not unlike modern guitar music leaning on an A or E. That means your phrasing can make all the difference. Of course, you have to hear it that way... and then one must hope others hear it that way when you play it! One simple technique I've found is to let any note played on the 3rd course ring as long as humanly possible. Doing just that eliminates the sensation of jumping in very many cases. Or so I claim. The problem with the first fugue is that it's, well... it's a fugue. And so it has linear passages that really seem to fall down when they land on that lower G. Also, with full bordones the separation of the voices is more explicit because it falls on different registers, and the lines cross at the G. Without the bordones you have to think of two voices in the same register -- not so explicit as what we're used to in a fugue. cud __ From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com To: Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 4:55:11 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello Franz, but some quite odd with melodylines suddenly jumping an octave up or down. So I suspected that these were not written for re-entrant tuning, or only the upper string being re-entrant, but to take it like this seems also not convincing either. I find that many of these jumps would disappear if a high octave string were used on the third course, as Chris also mentioned. I remember one place in Sanz (the Espanoleta in the very easy pieces for beginners in the foirst book) where both re-entrant and bourdon tuning would create either a seventh or a ninth jump, whereas re-entrant with upper ocatve g would not. Sanz however never mentions a high octave on thirds, and if I remember correctly there has been some discussion in the past as to the feasability of having a gut string tuned to g' without it breaking. IIRC Hopkinson Smith recorded his Sanz disc with high octave g, arguing that the tablature as written by Sanz calls for it. Regards Peter -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
One last clarification... I'm not suggesting any one method will solve all problems. Fate fore fend! I'm only relating my own experience as I've done my best to make sense out of one method of stringing. For me the bottom line is that it's loads of fun and it opens up musical possibilities. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 5:32:29 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Dear Everyone I think everything which Chris has said in his long message is very helpful and I agree with what he says. However I would not start out with the idea that most of the music is intended to be played with one method of stringing rather than another and that somehow you can eliminate all the anomalies which Franz has mentioned in his message with any particular method. As far as having a high octave string on the 3rd course is concerned - there is no documentary evidence that this method of tuning was ever used. The two manuscript sources which some people have claimed do show this method of stringing are not sufficiently clear to support such an idea. You can see the relevant pages in the essay about stringing on my webpage - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk Although this method of stringing is very popular at the moment IMHO it creates as many problems as it solves. And with gut strings you might have a problem. Aside from that I think you could play all the music in Corbetta's books of 1643 and 1648 and in Bartolotti's 1640 book with a re-entrant tuning. Quite a lot of Foscarini, Santiago de Murcia, Valdambrini if you can get a copy of it and can decipher it. James Tyler's tutor is now available and I guess it has quite a few pieces from different parts of the repertoire suitable for re-entrant tuning. I was amused by Chris's comment on Libro de Diferentes Cifras (m/811, 1705), edited by Francisco Alfonso Valdivia -- Monica is credited as a collaborator (sounds subversive). Francisco and I are friends but I am not sure that he would think the re-entrant tuning appropriate for the music in this manuscript. The choice is really yours. Hope that helped. Monica - Original Message - From: Peter Kooiman To: Franz Mechsner Cc: Vihuelalist ; Chris Despopoulos ; Harlan Glotzer ; Monica Hall Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello Franz, but some quite odd with melodylines suddenly jumping an octave up or down. So I suspected that these were not written for re-entrant tuning, or only the upper string being re-entrant, but to take it like this seems also not convincing either. I find that many of these jumps would disappear if a high octave string were used on the third course, as Chris also mentioned. I remember one place in Sanz (the Espanoleta in the very easy pieces for beginners in the foirst book) where both re-entrant and bourdon tuning would create either a seventh or a ninth jump, whereas re-entrant with upper ocatve g would not. Sanz however never mentions a high octave on thirds, and if I remember correctly there has been some discussion in the past as to the feasability of having a gut string tuned to g' without it breaking. IIRC Hopkinson Smith recorded his Sanz disc with high octave g, arguing that the tablature as written by Sanz calls for it. Regards Peter To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
I definitely don't want to spark anything. I'm just looking for any obvious prohibitions to using a fully re-entrant tuning with Roncalli. For me, first indications are good. But I'm fairly unwashed... I take your statement that he says nothing, to mean that I should go with what feels good. That makes me feel young again! cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 3:25:16 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Funny that it shouldn't have reached you before. I agree that the re-entrant tuning works perfectly for most of the repertoire. It is a misconception that the re-entrant tuning is somehow inadequate. As for Roncalli - as has already been pointed out he doesn't say anything at all on the subject. And as I have already said before I prefer the versions I have heard without a bordon on the 5th course. I think that the re-entrant tuning was probably the most widely used in Italy. But perhaps it is better not to spark off yet another discussion on this topic. (But I have already done so). Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Ha! I found this in my SPAM folder for some reason. I do not disagree in principle with this compromise. I tried it out for Sanz, however, and for *my* taste and for the expectations I have built up from close to a year of playing with no bordones, I can't get a satisfactory sound for Sanz with the bordon on the 4th course. That's just me. Oh, and I'm spreading out to Roncalli now, and I'm pretty happy with the sound so far sin bordones. But again, that's just me. Of course, I wonder whether that's accurate, and hope to ask without starting a row. If I pick up Corbetta's La Guitarre Royale, I will of necessity add the 4th bordon... Thanks your informed understanding of the music. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:37:23 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? As far as I am concerned a bourdon on the 4th course but not on the 5th is the answer to every maiden's prayer. It is compromise, and in the real world compromises are what work best. And I think we should re-christen it the English tuning because it is the tuning Corbetta intended for his La guitarre royale. He composed all the music in it whilst he was in England and dedicated it to good King Charles II Chris probably wont agree with me Whatever you do - enjoy. Monica - Original Message - From: Harlan Glotzer [3]hargloresea...@gmail.com To: Chris Despopoulos [4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies! I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would be (bourdons on 4 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand that there is no silver bullet stringing that will be perfect for everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people, etc. I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and plunge in. :p On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos [7]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall [8]mjlh
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) I can say the following: 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant manner. 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality of the pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar Sanz. 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is concerned. In fact, I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism (sadly, it approaches New Age much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the only limitations were my own. If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web site. 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be liberating -- for now at least. 5 I'm still learning -- that's a good thing. Coming fresh to this instrument may be a great advantage to you. You will not be prejudiced by having played the same pieces on a modern guitar. Also, Spanish tablature is upside down for modern musicians, which makes it harder to deal with, the more experience you have with the modern instrument. But make no mistake, the baroque guitar is an instrument of its own, and you can't successfully treat is as yet-another-variation on the modern guitar. That would be like saying the electric guitar and the classical guitar are the same instrument. On the other hand, your disadvantages will largely be with yuor right hand, in my opinion. I happen to believe that's the more important hand. The left hand is what drives the harmony and text, but the right hand is what turns it into music. As you listen to baroque playing, you should close your eyes and try to *feel* how it is to make your right hand do all that. I wish you the best of luck with your plans to build the guitar. As you get to specific issues, I'm sure people on this list can offer much information -- historical and practical. Cheers cud __ From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 1:59:05 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello all, I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up to build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited by the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have built instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood (and a friend of mine is a luthier so I should be able to get some of my questions fielded). Two questions, however, that seem to elude me concern frets and strings. Do I need to gauge my frets as I move up the neck? Or can I just use a fixed gauge of gut/nylon/etc? The other is a more performance oriented question. What stringing/tuning scheme would you suggest for a beginner? I seem go be most drawn to the Spanish music, but am a complete beginner on the guitar, and I'm also afraid the Spanish tuning will limit what I can play (I'd like to experiment with new/modern music as well). What tuning/stringing do you prefer and why? Any advice on building, fretting, tuning, and the playing of the baroque guitar would be most helpful. Thanks! Harlan To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer [2]hargloresea...@gmail.com; [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) I can say the following: 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant manner. 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality of the pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar Sanz. 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is concerned. In fact, I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism (sadly, it approaches New Age much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the only limitations were my own. If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web site. 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be liberating -- for now at least. 5 I'm still learning -- that's a good thing. Coming fresh to this instrument may be a great advantage to you. You will not be prejudiced by having played the same pieces on a modern guitar. Also, Spanish tablature is upside down for modern musicians, which makes it harder to deal with, the more experience you have with the modern instrument. But make no mistake, the baroque guitar is an instrument of its own, and you can't successfully treat is as yet-another-variation on the modern guitar. That would be like saying the electric guitar and the classical guitar are the same
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
I'd follow that overthinking line of thought... Pick one, and plunge. Than after a while, pick another and plunge. Don't stick on any one unless you are getting special inspiration from it. Or, if you want to strive for historical accuracy, then you do have to let the composer guide you to some extent, as far as that's possible. Like I hinted at before, the archives of this list should amaze you with the amount of discussion this very topic can generate. There's no end to how seriously you can take this subject... You're at the right place if you want pointers for handling a specific composer, era, or song/dance form. As for pulling out the axe and strumming along... My family's been known to play XMas carols with trumpet, French horn, clarinet, and me strumming along. Sometimes my ukulele, and sometimes my baroque guitar. No controversey about the way it's strung. And in my experience, people who ordinarily roll their eyes when you bring out a modern guitar (believe me, I have decades of experience in that) actually kind of perk up when they see a baroque one. __ From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:11:42 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies! I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would be (bourdons on 4 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand that there is no silver bullet stringing that will be perfect for everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people, etc. I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and plunge in. :p On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1][5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer [2][6]hargloresea...@gmail.com; [3][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Yes, but I was also getting at the logic of his composition. He takes your right hand and moves it around in ways that you would never expect. And he breaks the voices up in ways that do really hide the polyphony... but reveal it at the same time. It's sort of like a painting that suggest the form more than explicitly outlines it. If you look at it in a certain way, you see it like a photograph. A different way of seeing reduces it to loosely connected calligraphy. It's truly amazing stuff, and I can't pretend I understand it. But I like it! cud __ From: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 17, 2011 11:43:16 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Hi Chris, I think you're too modest about the clarity of texture you achieve, but I agree that tablature can be an excellent type of notation; much more useful than we moderns expect. Best, Jocelyn On 1/16/2011 4:09 AM, Chris Despopoulos [1][1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks for the encouragement. I'll say that if you can hear distinct voices in the mandore, blame the composer. The logic of his compositions, and the way he implies continuity in the voices when the plectrum can't carry it explicitly is pure genius. The tablature indicates everything -- up and down strokes are particularly important. You could almost imagine an elaborate wind-up machine controlled by the instructions and successfully playing this stuff, it's that logical. Cheerscud __ From: Nelson, Jocelyn [2][2]nels...@ecu.edu To: Chris Despopoulos [3][3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; Stuart Walsh [4][4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [5][5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 7:26:28 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces I enjoyed this, Chris. The voices in the Chancy pieces are clear and distinct from each other, and it's kind of amazing you were able to this with a plectrum. So I think you do show the depth in these little pieces. Chancy's an interesting composer. And I like your strums in the Sanz! Thanks for posting and sending the link. Best, Jocelyn From: Chris Despopoulos [[1][6][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 12:39 PM To: Stuart Walsh; Nelson, Jocelyn Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Always one to toot my own horn (or pluck my own strings, as it were), I have posted some recordings on my personal site at: [2][7][7]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Two tracks are some old recordings I did on the mandore, and three others are on the baroque guitar... I keep meaning to do better, but where's the time? Anyway, the mandore recordings are of Chancy's Suite #5, and 3 of his series of 6 branles. The tablatures are for a 4-string instrument, and as I understand it, to be played with a plectrum. At least that's what I was taught by Didier Le Roux and other members of l'Ensemble Gabriel Leone (I was *very* fortunate to attend a class that reviewed the mandolin. I never made it past the mandore.) In spite of being played with a plectrum, the Chancy music is full of hidden polyphony. For the miniature qualities it has on the surface, I believe the music is vast in scope... if only I could reveal a fraction of its depth and breadth I'd be happy. Anyway, for your enjoyment... Vive le mandore! cheers cud From: Stuart Walsh [3][8][8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Nelson, Jocelyn [4][9][9]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [5][10][10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos [6][11][11]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:52:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Thanks for the encouragement. I'll say that if you can hear distinct voices in the mandore, blame the composer. The logic of his compositions, and the way he implies continuity in the voices when the plectrum can't carry it explicitly is pure genius. The tablature indicates everything -- up and down strokes are particularly important. You could almost imagine an elaborate wind-up machine controlled by the instructions and successfully playing this stuff, it's that logical. Cheers cud __ From: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 7:26:28 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces I enjoyed this, Chris. The voices in the Chancy pieces are clear and distinct from each other, and it's kind of amazing you were able to this with a plectrum. So I think you do show the depth in these little pieces. Chancy's an interesting composer. And I like your strums in the Sanz! Thanks for posting and sending the link. Best, Jocelyn From: Chris Despopoulos [[1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 12:39 PM To: Stuart Walsh; Nelson, Jocelyn Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Always one to toot my own horn (or pluck my own strings, as it were), I have posted some recordings on my personal site at: [2]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Two tracks are some old recordings I did on the mandore, and three others are on the baroque guitar... I keep meaning to do better, but where's the time? Anyway, the mandore recordings are of Chancy's Suite #5, and 3 of his series of 6 branles. The tablatures are for a 4-string instrument, and as I understand it, to be played with a plectrum. At least that's what I was taught by Didier Le Roux and other members of l'Ensemble Gabriel Leone (I was *very* fortunate to attend a class that reviewed the mandolin. I never made it past the mandore.) In spite of being played with a plectrum, the Chancy music is full of hidden polyphony. For the miniature qualities it has on the surface, I believe the music is vast in scope... if only I could reveal a fraction of its depth and breadth I'd be happy. Anyway, for your enjoyment... Vive le mandore! cheers cud From: Stuart Walsh [3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Nelson, Jocelyn [4]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos [6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:52:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. [7]http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, Stuart Walsh[8]s.wa...@ntlworld.commailto:[9]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, Chris Despopoulos[10
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Always one to toot my own horn (or pluck my own strings, as it were), I have posted some recordings on my personal site at: [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Two tracks are some old recordings I did on the mandore, and three others are on the baroque guitar... I keep meaning to do better, but where's the time? Anyway, the mandore recordings are of Chancy's Suite #5, and 3 of his series of 6 branles. The tablatures are for a 4-string instrument, and as I understand it, to be played with a plectrum. At least that's what I was taught by Didier Le Roux and other members of l'Ensemble Gabriel Leone (I was *very* fortunate to attend a class that reviewed the mandolin. I never made it past the mandore.) In spite of being played with a plectrum, the Chancy music is full of hidden polyphony. For the miniature qualities it has on the surface, I believe the music is vast in scope... if only I could reveal a fraction of its depth and breadth I'd be happy. Anyway, for your enjoyment... Vive le mandore! cheers cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:52:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. [2]http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, Stuart Walsh[3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, Chris Despopoulos[4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud __ From: Stuart Walsh[5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist[6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:19:40 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
It would be interesting to see the ULM version of the Branle de Bocan. The Chancy series of branles begins with the title Branles de Boccan, and the second one in the set is titled (fittingly enough) Second. So I think of it as a variation on the first. After that comes Branle Gay, Branle de Poictou, then Branle Double de Poictou, then finally Branle de Montirande -- a most beautiful thing if you ask me. He finishes the set off with La Gavotte. For my guitar I just use rectified nylon -- Saverez, I think (the envelopes are hidden away at the moment.) What I called a Sarabanda I should perhaps properly refer to as a Zarabanda. It's on the second page of tablature in his Tomo 2. I know modern guitar players played it much more slowly, but I took my inspiration from Javier La Torre (if I dare say so), who plays it much more spritely. And yes, I'm stuck on fully re-entrant tuning at the moment. It fascinates me. cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 4:35:23 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 17:39, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Always one to toot my own horn (or pluck my own strings, as it were), I have posted some recordings on my personal site at: [1][1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Very nice Chris. Chancy's music is a lot more sophisticated or more 'modern' than Skene or the Ulm mandore MS (well 133a and b). I do like the Branle de Bocan. It's in Ulm 133b as a five course fingerstyle (or prectrum +fingers) piece. (Maybe the other two Branles are in there, somewhere too). What strings do you have on your Baroque guitar. The instrument (it's fully re-entrant, isn't it?) sounds very resonant. I was bit surprised by the opening of the Jacaras? And the Sarabanda sounds very familiar but is it really a sarabanda and in Sanz? Stuart Two tracks are some old recordings I did on the mandore, and three others are on the baroque guitar... I keep meaning to do better, but where's the time? Anyway, the mandore recordings are of Chancy's Suite #5, and 3 of his series of 6 branles. The tablatures are for a 4-string instrument, and as I understand it, to be played with a plectrum. At least that's what I was taught by Didier Le Roux and other members of l'Ensemble Gabriel Leone (I was *very* fortunate to attend a class that reviewed the mandolin. I never made it past the mandore.) In spite of being played with a plectrum, the Chancy music is full of hidden polyphony. For the miniature qualities it has on the surface, I believe the music is vast in scope... if only I could reveal a fraction of its depth and breadth I'd be happy. Anyway, for your enjoyment... Vive le mandore! cheers cud __ From: Stuart Walsh [2][2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Nelson, Jocelyn [3][3]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [4][4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos [5][5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:52:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. [6][6]http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, Stuart Walsh[7][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:19:40 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. [1]http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
I'm also skeptical of an octave G, if for no other reason than the fact that Sanz simply doesn't mention it. He takes pains to say that if you want to sound like the fashionable players of the time, then you should use such-and-such a stringing. He never mentions, And if you *really* want to sound good, use an octave on the G or anything of the kind. In fact, I'm not aware of anybody mentioning an octave on the G (please correct me if I'm wrong). On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with taking discrete liberties with the written score, and playing the higher G when it feels necessary. I think statistically speaking, if you put the burden (no pun intended) on the G course, rather that bordones on the D and/or A, you will find fewer cases where you wish for an octave other than the one the strings sound -- with Sanz at least. (Can I get an honorary degree if I prove that point?) And further, if you strike the strings equally with your thumb, I think all agree (except perhaps Lex) that the lower octave will dominate the sensation of what you hear... biology of the ear, more mass in the bordon producing more pressure in the air. So I personally don't believe adding a bordon to the G is worth the cost of fine-tuning my technique so I can choose which octave I want to emphasize. Technically, it's easier to grab the higher-octave G on a different string when I can't live without it. That said, it's curious to find passages in Sanz that could easily be played with the G', yet are written for the lower octave. I think that's a clue to how differently music was heard at the time. Take measure 2 of the second line in Passacalles sobre la D con muchas Diferencias. Why is that G a lower octave? Bordones on the D string clearly don't solve anything there. There's no problem either playing the G' on the E string, or arranging a campanela that's identical to the campanela in the 4th to the last measire of the piece. Given the velocity of the passage, either alternative is well within technical reach. But that's not his choice. Interesting stuff... cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 5:15:03 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence - other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the tensile strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say, would struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the 'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally not tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major third below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of course, one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course. M --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 23:25 Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye of the beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a bordon on the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for those passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either. What strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found so far that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I try the French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music. cud __ From: Monica Hall [1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [2][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3][7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:22:36 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? That is why some people do argue that octave
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
In my experience, I would say nearly all Sanz definitely *works* with fully re-entrant tuning. I find only one fugue that gives me any problems... Every other piece I have tried so far sounds absolutely great, and makes perfect sense in a fully re-entrant tuning. It takes a little getting used to... Probably the most difficult pieces to play are the ones you have played previously on a modern guitar. The logic of the pieces may prove to be different than you initially thought. But for all that, the logic is generally consistent... Except that one darned fugue! cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 5:29:16 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carre some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Fuga Primera, por primer Tono al ayre Espanyol, the open G string in measures (counting from the tablaltura, and not counting the notated theme): 5 19 23 25 (Note the open G in 24 is not a problem, even though its leading is very similar) In these cases, I simply cannot hear a logical leading into the lower G... to my ear it desperately wants the upper octave G. I can play that upper octave on the E string, but that's not how it's written. There are other instances of ambiguous leading in this piece (and many others) where either octave could make sense. In those cases the lower octave is not a problem for me, and I find a careful emphasis makes those notes settle perfectly well into the piece. But these cited cases just don't work for me, no matter how hard I try to hear it. So far this is the only piece that troubles me in the Sanz books. But it really troubles me... I love it and want to fully understand it. Some people have suggested there's evidence that Sanz approved of and possibly used an octave-strung G course. I'm not convinced -- Anyway, that just pushes the whole issue onto another course and really doesn't help solve this raging argument about stringing/playing the guitar. Any advice you can offer on this piece is quite welcome! Cheers cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:29:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Which fugue is it? Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: wikla [2]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 3:54 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? In my experience, I would say nearly all Sanz definitely *works* with fully re-entrant tuning. I find only one fugue that gives me any problems... Every other piece I have tried so far sounds absolutely great, and makes perfect sense in a fully re-entrant tuning. It takes a little getting used to... Probably the most difficult pieces to play are the ones you have played previously on a modern guitar. The logic of the pieces may prove to be different than you initially thought. But for all that, the logic is generally consistent... Except that one darned fugue! cud __ From: Stuart Walsh [4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: wikla [5]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: [6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 5:29:16 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carre some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 5. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye of the beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a bordon on the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for those passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either. What strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found so far that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I try the French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:22:36 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? That is why some people do argue that octave stringing on the 3rd course is intended. Gordon Ferries plays it on his CD with the re-entrant tuning. It works after a fashion but it is not the best track. I think the point is that Sanz doesn't explicitly say that all his music is intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. All he really doing is generally saying which tuning he thinks works best for which type of music. I think you can exercise a bit of discretion in these matters. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Fuga Primera, por primer Tono al ayre Espanyol, the open G string in measures (counting from the tablaltura, and not counting the notated theme): 5 19 23 25 (Note the open G in 24 is not a problem, even though its leading is very similar) In these cases, I simply cannot hear a logical leading into the lower G... to my ear it desperately wants the upper octave G. I can play that upper octave on the E string, but that's not how it's written. There are other instances of ambiguous leading in this piece (and many others) where either octave could make sense. In those cases the lower octave is not a problem for me, and I find a careful emphasis makes those notes settle perfectly well into the piece. But these cited cases just don't work for me, no matter how hard I try to hear it. So far this is the only piece that troubles me in the Sanz books. But it really troubles me... I love it and want to fully understand it. Some people have suggested there's evidence that Sanz approved of and possibly used an octave-strung G course. I'm not convinced -- Anyway, that just pushes the whole issue onto another course and really doesn't help solve this raging argument about stringing/playing the guitar. Any advice you can offer on this piece is quite welcome! Cheers cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:29:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Which fugue is it? Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: wikla [5]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: [6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 3:54 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? In my experience, I would say nearly all Sanz definitely *works* with fully re-entrant tuning. I find only one fugue that gives me any problems... Every other piece I have tried so far sounds absolutely great, and makes perfect sense in a fully re-entrant tuning. It takes a little getting used to... Probably the most difficult pieces to play are the ones you have played previously on a modern guitar. The logic of the pieces may prove to be different than you initially thought. But for all that, the logic is generally consistent... Except that one darned fugue! cud __ From: Stuart Walsh [7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: wikla [8]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: [9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 5:29:16 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Thanks much... In practice, I'm moving slowly back in time. I will have to come to grips with the Renaissance sooner or later, in terms of understanding and practice. Well, that's the goal, at any rate. You open great areas to explore. In fact, I'm confronted with choosing which instrument to explore... given a limited budget. R. Guitar, Lute, or Vihuela? So much beauty, so little time (and money). Cheers cud __ From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, November 19, 2010 7:30:48 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence Dear Chris, I have in mind pieces like this Calata ala spagnola from Dalza's collection printed in 1508: [1][1]http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/sources/dalza_intabulatura_v4_1508/50v .pn g The piece is constructed on a simple, repeated bass line giving root-position chords. In fact, there are slight discrepancies as you go through the piece, which suggest either a bar or two missing or a free attitude to the chord sequence, but the piece is certainly not polyphonic, and one could be excused for imagining it had been written 100 years later. An example of Newsidler's Durchstreicher - downward strums with the thumb - can be seen at [2][2]http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/sources/hnewsidler/1536_1/x2.jpg Again, the texture is not a strictly polyphonic one. Filling out chords for lute music played with a plectrum may be seen in the Pesaro manuscipt kept at the Biblioteca Oliveriana. I'm afraid I don't know if any of the music is available on the internet. There is a facsimile in print, but unfortunately I don't have a copy. You can see some of the music in facsimile in the booklet which accompanies Andrea Dammiani's CD of music from that manuscript, CD EL962305. The music in this manuscript dates from the latter part of the 15th century. The trouble with plectrums (as with bows on a viol) is that you are forced into playing chords involving notes on adjacent strings. For example, one piece ends as follows: |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ |\ |\ | | | | | | | | | | | _1___1___ _1___5___1___ _4___2___1___2___1___2___ _3___3___ _3___3___ _1___ That was in Neapolitan tablature. It would look like this in French tablature: |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ |\ |\ | | | | | | | | | | | _a___a___ _a___e___a___ _d___b___a___b___a___b___ _c___c___ _c___c___ _a___ A strictly polyphonic version playable with fingers may have been something like: |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ |\ |\ | | | | | | | | | | | _a___a___ _e___ _d___b___a___b___a___ _c___c___ _c___ _a___ There are so many examples of chord progressions throughout the 16th century, it is difficult to know where to start. Paccaloni's lute trios is a happy hunting ground, as is Diego Ortiz's book of improvisation on the viol. As I understand it, during the 15th century temperament changed from one which had favoured perfect fifths to one which favoured major thirds. Composers like Machaut in the 14th century had tended to avoid major triads, whereas composers like Dufay in the 15th century made great use of them. Instrumentalists filling out a polyphonic texture with triads soon followed. I regard this fundamental change in temperament a far more significant milestone in the history of music than the transition from renaissance to baroque. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Chris Despopoulos [mailto:[3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com] Sent: 19 November 2010 07:30 To: Stewart McCoy Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence Dear Stewart... You say: Some of the dance pieces in Dalza's collection of lute music (1508) are based on simple grounds or chord sequences, and we have strumming of sorts on the lute with Newsidler's Durchstreicher in 1536. I find this interesting. In my reading of 2nd- and probably 3rd-hand sources (or even further removed), I'm led to believe that grounding musical structure on chordal progression was an innovation of the Baroque... if not THE innovation. Of course, drawing distinct lines between phases of musical
[VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
Well, stairway to heaven brings up an interesting issue of music, and that's imitation. How many kids learned that old saw without having a clue of what they were doing? (I can name one for certain...) To ask it a bit more politely, how often is theory invoked to explain what we already imitate anyway? And so even the more educated players -- certainly those of today, but why not those back then -- have nothing against merely imitating a phrase or a piece, and maybe digesting the theoretical implications later. Or to consider it at yet another level, how much of the striving and arriving at the optimal beauty for a piece was a product of imitation, slight mutation, and a statement that is itself imitated. It's wonderful to think that all of art music's development was theoretical and pure, and never sullied by the iterative cycles of cultural acceptance we ascribe to folk and ethnic music. Somehow I'm not convinced. But you thankfully give the reminder that our ears are already trained to accept a harmonic orientation that didn't necessarily exist in the early Baroque. So without the benefit of theoretical underpinnings, what could the criteria have been for mutation and evolution? I see a happy tension between these issues. cud __ From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, November 17, 2010 9:42:03 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence Dear Martyn, You write '.how can you find the chords to a song if you have no idea of counterpoint and voice-leading at all...' . Surely this is why a such a basically simple chordal instrument is so popular even today - once you've mastered a few chords and have a reasonable ear you're ready to tackle the mainly straightforward repertoire of songs alfabeto was used for. Our ready ear is very much influenced/spoiled by functional harmony, I'm afraid. I suppose it went wrong so often (then) because the trick of finding the appropriate harmonies was to add 'middle voices' to a bass and soprano. Of course, odd clashes would have occurred occasionally which is why more than just a few alfabeto chords are used in some songs. But I wonder how much it mattered to the 'non-expert' player that a passing dissonance which was soon resolved was not slavishly harmonised. True, but I was thinking of the expert player. And again you write ' I would prefer to take in account that an experienced theorbist-guitarist would perhaps have tried to expand the system of alfabeto from within'.But surely when looking at most simple alfabeto accompaniments we are not speaking of these expert practitioners but the more general strumming public who may not have been up to improvising more than the basic three tonal chords If we are trying to figure out what was possibly done in the 1620s and 30s, to reach an optimal performance of the most beautiful songs, respecting the ambience they were performed in, then we should not only think of what the general strumming public did. That could of course also be interesting information (for a gig in 17th c costume). Finally if you've ever performed Cesare Morelli's (Pepys guitar teacher) arrangement of 'To be or not to be' (an experience of novelty rather than artistic merit I can tell you) from the later 17th century you'd not rush to suggest strumming to songs was little employed by then - little written down maybe. And Morelli, supposedly a 'professional' of sorts often gets the harmonisations 'wrong' No, but I've done Stairway to heaven, does that count? Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Pakistani Baroque Guitar?
My instinct would be to play one before buying it, and in fact, play the very one you intend to buy. These added bits of information you mention don't add that many bits of information, in my opinion. We know Taylor designed the guitar, we know Taylor is great, and we know luthiers of the period were great. But we know darned little about this guitar. Where was it made? Out of what materials? Don't get me wrong... What do I expect for $700.00 retail? But I really think touching the instrument would be very important. My 0.02 euros' worth of opinion...cud __ From: Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk To: RALPH MAIER rkcma...@shaw.ca; Luca Manassero l...@manassero.net Cc: vihuela vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 12:02:08 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Pakistani Baroque Guitar? Another seller of this, as it seems, with some added bits of information [1][1]http://dulcimershofar.com/Baroque-Guitar-Sellas-5-course-Taylor-p -30 16.html Franz __ Von: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von RALPH MAIER Gesendet: Fr 15/10/2010 01:05 An: Luca Manassero Cc: [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [VIHUELA] Re: Pakistani Baroque Guitar? Thanks for this. It may be a good opportunity for students to get into it. Anyone tried them yet? Ralph - Original Message - From: Luca Manassero [4]l...@manassero.net Date: Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:45 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Pakistani Baroque Guitar? To: [5]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear List, a member of the French list pointed to this German music shop: [2][6]http://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_baroque_guitar.htm The Renaissance lute looks *really* awful, but the baroque guitar less so: of course will probably sound as a stringed cigar box, but who knows? (click on the guitar picture to get a lot more detailed pictures) Luca To get on or off this list see list information at [3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. [8]http://dulcimershofar.com/Baroque-Guitar-Sellas-5-course-Taylor-p-30 16.html 2. [9]http://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_baroque_guitar.htm 3. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://dulcimershofar.com/Baroque-Guitar-Sellas-5-course-Taylor-p-30 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:l...@manassero.net 5. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_baroque_guitar.htm 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. http://dulcimershofar.com/Baroque-Guitar-Sellas-5-course-Taylor-p-3016.html 9. http://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_baroque_guitar.htm 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Pakistani Baroque Guitar?
Yes, and for all my suspicion, I was fascinated by the array of instruments at this site. Definitely bookmarked it -- I may become a millionaire some day and have room, time, and inclination to get one of just about everything there. Still, I think for about double the price of this Baroque guitar, I think you could find a student model... cud __ From: Luca Manassero l...@manassero.net To: vihuela vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 4:40:26 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Pakistani Baroque Guitar? Well, 6 years ago I bought a Pakistani lute: a *huge* mistake. Materials were good, but craftmanship simply horrible. The design as well had an important number of flaws. It took some deep repairing by a professional lutemaker, including replacing the soundboard entirely, to make it a playable instrument. I ended up spending the price of a student lute made by a reputable lutemaker. This guitar looks better, especially on the many pictures coming from the German website, but I agree: as for any musical instrument, I would go for a test and then eventually buy it. Of course, if the website sites offers money back, then it could be an almost hassle-free test. Luca Chris Despopoulos on 15/10/10 10.30 wrote: My instinct would be to play one before buying it, and in fact, play the very one you intend to buy. These added bits of information you mention don't add that many bits of information, in my opinion. We know Taylor designed the guitar, we know Taylor is great, and we know luthiers of the period were great. But we know darned little about this guitar. Where was it made? Out of what materials? Don't get me wrong... What do I expect for $700.00 retail? But I really think touching the instrument would be very important. My 0.02 euros' worth of opinion...cud __ From: Franz Mechsner[1]franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk To: RALPH MAIER[2]rkcma...@shaw.ca; Luca Manassero[3]l...@manassero.net Cc: vihuela[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 12:02:08 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Pakistani Baroque Guitar? Another seller of this, as it seems, with some added bits of information [1][1][5]http://dulcimershofar.com/Baroque-Guitar-Sellas-5-course-Taylo r-p -30 16.html Franz __ Von: [2][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von RALPH MAIER Gesendet: Fr 15/10/2010 01:05 An: Luca Manassero Cc: [3][7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [VIHUELA] Re: Pakistani Baroque Guitar? Thanks for this. It may be a good opportunity for students to get into it. Anyone tried them yet? Ralph - Original Message - From: Luca Manassero[4][8]l...@manassero.net Date: Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:45 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Pakistani Baroque Guitar? To: [5][9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear List, a member of the French list pointed to this German music shop: [2][6][10]http://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_baroque_guitar.htm The Renaissance lute looks *really* awful, but the baroque guitar less so: of course will probably sound as a stringed cigar box, but who knows? (click on the guitar picture to get a lot more detailed pictures) Luca To get on or off this list see list information at [3][7][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. [8][12]http://dulcimershofar.com/Baroque-Guitar-Sellas-5-course-Taylor- p-30 16.html 2. [9][13]http://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_baroque_guitar.htm 3. [10][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [15]http://dulcimershofar.com/Baroque-Guitar-Sellas-5-course-Taylor-p-3 0 2. mailto:[16]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:[17]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[18]l...@manassero.net 5. mailto:[19]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. [20]http://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_baroque_guitar.htm 7. [21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. [22]http://dulcimershofar.com/Baroque-Guitar-Sellas-5-course-Taylor-p-3 016.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Ah... I didn't mean to strum through a chord while playing these notes. What I meant was to let the chord ring as much as possible while actually striking the indicated single notes. I find lots of places where that can be done without diminishing the clarity of the single notes at all. For example, in the first measures of this piece it's easy to let most of the chord ring on while playing these other notes. I think of this as similar to the general tab rule I've had drilled into my head... Strike notes with the values indicated, but let them ring as long as possible. Lacking the expression of duration that modern notation has, I assume that's a general rule for tablatura. And so why would it be different when playing a chord? Are you taking that to be my meaning when you say I'm incorporating passing notes into the chords? cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 4:11:28 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Thanks for the detailed analysis. I agree with you about the alternating thumb and finger technique but I dont think you are supposed to incorporate the passing notes into the chords! If you read my message to Lex you wll see that Fosco says don't. Fourthly Particular care must be taken when playing those numbers which are placed after an alfabeto letter. These must be played singly; that is to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings than those which are shown. In this way the true effect of the ornamental notes will be felt and the parts will follow clearly one after the other which is what I intend. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall ; [3]Martyn Hodgson Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Ok... I have played through the Corrente dette la Favorita, and by and large I agree with Monica. Where I don't agree is when she says: One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente detta la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked the passing notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the first line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes. These can't actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G can't!). I agree with the above, but not the following... Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all with upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes with the thumb. The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. I find it most sensible to alternate between the thumb and index for these single notes, using the thumb for the typical down-beat of the note, and the index finger for the up-beat. In other words, I'm thinking of my hand going up and down in 8th notes, and grab the indicated notes where they fall in this strumming motion. So I would say, M3-i-p-i | M3-M3-M3 | G-i-p-i | G-G-B-B | ... As I understand it is with the lute, and I know it is when playing Chancy's tablatures on the mandore, the up-stroke on a single note is very important because it's to be weaker when compared to a down-stroke. And these are to be alternated in relation to the rhythmic structure of the piece. So why would it be different on the guitar, unless the situation makes it strictly impossible -- something I would be surprised to find in as charming a piece as this one. An added thing I found in trying the piece out... It pays to hold the chord as long as possible, even when playing the single note passages. But sometimes it pays to let go and prepare for an upcoming passage. AND, I found a place where an upstroke of the thumb makes perfect sense! If I say P is a down-stroke of the thumb, and p is an up-stroke of the thumb, I play the following in measure 9... D-p-ma-p | H-G-O. I play the D as a rasgueado, strumming on the backs of my nails, and the ma is pretty much the same thing with only two fingers. Also, I let go of the D chord as I play the ma, and with the following thumb upstroke my left hand is already playing the barre for the upcoming H. All of that happened rather quickly, and the right hand just sort of fell into place that way. Whew... Sorry if this is over the top. For me
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
I'm glad to hear that. Mind you, I'm coming to this with more of an intuitive sense of what works under my hands. I do read the instructions and manuscripts when I have them, but I'm still pretty new at this. I take it as an affirmation for me that the instructions don't seem to contradict what I would consider to be the logic of the instrument (or is it vis versa???). Anyway... I'm glad lists like this are around. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 2:31:02 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Yes - what you are saying makes perfect sense. For example when you are playing the piano this is exactly what happens. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Ah... I didn't mean to strum through a chord while playing these notes. What I meant was to let the chord ring as much as possible while actually striking the indicated single notes. I find lots of places where that can be done without diminishing the clarity of the single notes at all. For example, in the first measures of this piece it's easy to let most of the chord ring on while playing these other notes. I think of this as similar to the general tab rule I've had drilled into my head... Strike notes with the values indicated, but let them ring as long as possible. Lacking the expression of duration that modern notation has, I assume that's a general rule for tablatura. And so why would it be different when playing a chord? Are you taking that to be my meaning when you say I'm incorporating passing notes into the chords? cud __ From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 4:11:28 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Thanks for the detailed analysis. I agree with you about the alternating thumb and finger technique but I dont think you are supposed to incorporate the passing notes into the chords! If you read my message to Lex you wll see that Fosco says don't. Fourthly Particular care must be taken when playing those numbers which are placed after an alfabeto letter. These must be played singly; that is to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings than those which are shown. In this way the true effect of the ornamental notes will be felt and the parts will follow clearly one after the other which is what I intend. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall ; [3]Martyn Hodgson Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Ok... I have played through the Corrente dette la Favorita, and by and large I agree with Monica. Where I don't agree is when she says: One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente detta la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked the passing notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the first line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes. These can't actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G can't!). I agree with the above, but not the following... Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all with upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes with the thumb. The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. I find it most sensible to alternate between the thumb and index for these single notes, using the thumb for the typical down-beat of the note, and the index finger for the up-beat. In other words, I'm thinking of my hand going up and down in 8th notes, and grab the indicated notes where they fall in this strumming motion. So I would say, M3-i-p-i | M3-M3-M3 | G-i-p-i | G-G-B-B | ... As I understand it is with the lute, and I know it is when playing Chancy's tablatures on the mandore
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
I don't know Foscarini's music, but I can say a few things about the thumb in general. There's nothing more or less impractical about using the thumb than any other finger. It's a matter of practice. One can use the thumb for rapid linear passages with up/down strokes on single strings, or with down stroke + slur on single strings. Flamenco playing relies on thumb techniques quite a bit. There I go again, injecting modern music and technique into the discussion. But how can a modern person play las Jacaras and*not* think about Flamenco? See the following ... [1]http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html -- Christina Pluhar with Pepe Habichuela (one of the world's premier flamenco artists). Whether you like or approve of what they're doing, the collaboration (what little of it finally occurs) is obvious. And you might get a view of some thumb work in action. Here's a clip that shows some flamenco thumb technique. [2]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-poucededo -pulgar In no way am I suggesting this is an appropriate technique for the Baroque guitar. But it shows how elaborate the thumb can be -- if you make it to the end of the clip you'll see some awesome upstrokes in action. How much of flamenco technique has a direct line to the Baroque? I have no idea whether the study has been done. If not, it should be. I can say that rasgueados I learned in a Baroque guitar class are not far removed from rasgueados used in Flamenco. Also, many Flamenco song forms rely on the hemiola that's so prevalent in the Spanish Baroque dances. (I would expecially love to see a study of the Jacaras... Is the oriental mode used as a way to poke fun at an ethnic group? The song is supposed to be humorous, and about the woes and tribulations of some poor schleb, isn't it? And it's very similar to Las Bularias... the name coming from burlar, or to joke.) I digress. If you're saying that the upstrokes Foscarini indicates are not practical in his specific context, that may be true. I don't know that music. But my inclination would be to try and take them literally and see if I wind up learning a new technique. I'll say it over and over again... the right hand is far more important than the left. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk ... This is an important point - because he does often indicate that up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very practical - I have tried it. -- References 1. http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html 2. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-poucededo-pulgar To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Ok... I have played through the Corrente dette la Favorita, and by and large I agree with Monica. Where I don't agree is when she says: One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente detta la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked the passing notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the first line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes. These can't actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G can't!). I agree with the above, but not the following... Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all with upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes with the thumb. The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. I find it most sensible to alternate between the thumb and index for these single notes, using the thumb for the typical down-beat of the note, and the index finger for the up-beat. In other words, I'm thinking of my hand going up and down in 8th notes, and grab the indicated notes where they fall in this strumming motion. So I would say, M3-i-p-i | M3-M3-M3 | G-i-p-i | G-G-B-B | ... As I understand it is with the lute, and I know it is when playing Chancy's tablatures on the mandore, the up-stroke on a single note is very important because it's to be weaker when compared to a down-stroke. And these are to be alternated in relation to the rhythmic structure of the piece. So why would it be different on the guitar, unless the situation makes it strictly impossible -- something I would be surprised to find in as charming a piece as this one. An added thing I found in trying the piece out... It pays to hold the chord as long as possible, even when playing the single note passages. But sometimes it pays to let go and prepare for an upcoming passage. AND, I found a place where an upstroke of the thumb makes perfect sense! If I say P is a down-stroke of the thumb, and p is an up-stroke of the thumb, I play the following in measure 9... D-p-ma-p | H-G-O. I play the D as a rasgueado, strumming on the backs of my nails, and the ma is pretty much the same thing with only two fingers. Also, I let go of the D chord as I play the ma, and with the following thumb upstroke my left hand is already playing the barre for the upcoming H. All of that happened rather quickly, and the right hand just sort of fell into place that way. Whew... Sorry if this is over the top. For me the bottom line is maintaining the strumming sensation, in my mind, and in my hands as much as possible. Which gets to Monica's last statement... The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play. True, but they do have a practical use if they keep you oriented in the pulse of the music. Thanks for pointing to a lovely piece. If I can get the transition from the N7 to the M+5 in measure 26, I'll add it to my regular bag of tricks. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 10:57:52 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance I'm afraid I don't agree. It is physically possible to hold Chord M and play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and play the 4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret. The 5th course stopped at the 3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply be repeating Chord G. On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the first fret whilst holding Chord B. There are some problems following Chord N on line 4 as well. I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style. What Corbetta says in 1639 is very relevant here... Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the stroke marks, these are all intended to be played on the first course [canto] only. And they are played like this so that it is easier and so that it is not necessary to make any changes to accommodate different fingerings in order to play a chord/ letter. In this way it seems to me to create a better and more delicate effect. In this instance he is referring to single notes played on the 1st course between chords - because the music is all in alfabeto but it applies more generally. You wouldn't repeat the chord against every passing note in any other circumstances. What is the point of doing it here. There is a clear melodic line - it creates a better and more delicate effect as Corbetta says. MOnica
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
I like thinking about the evolution from 4 to 6 strings. I'm sure we can only speculate, unless there are explicit statements made at the time that we can uses as guides. Monica and Lex, you both use words like perhaps and likely... I'm not convinced that the requirement of barre chords is an overarching impediment. The 5-course alfabeto includes barres, and Sanz (for all his simplicity) often calls for them. Also, 12-string guitars exist -- modern ones as well as those reaching back into Mexico's past -- with music that includes barre's. (I don't agree with excluding the living relatives from the discussion.) If the musical requirements of a piece ask for more strings, we have many and fantastic examples of builders adding on strings to meet the requirements... Or even adding on another instrument joined at the hip. I don't see an argument for a physical impediment to 6-course instruments, either in construction, strings, or playing capabilities. I see the impediment as conceptual, and not in any pejorative sense. There's a practical tension between range and voicing that is captured in this issue. The most difficult intervals to play on the modern guitar are close intervals. Scordaturae exist to address this issue because these voicings can be essential to a certain mood or expression. Re-entrant tuning is one way to address this issue. But with re-entrance, you sacrifice range on the scale. I see this as a practical issue, not a historical one. The simple fact is, I can play and compose music on a guitar tuned in the Sanz style that I cannot play or compose on a modern guitar -- and vis versa. The issue is historical to the extent that practice emphasized different things at different times. But it's the practice that interests me. I also believe (perhaps it is likely) that with the tuning scheme we have for the guitar, 5 courses is the limit for re-entrant tuning. Any more becomes redundant -- you have to worry about it when strumming, but it doesn't add anything new. So as long as players think in terms of re-entrant tuning, they will not have any interest in a 6-course instrument. That interest can only arise when they think in terms of extending the range of the instrument, and that extension is necessarily either up or down in pitch. It so happens for the guitar it was down. But to me it indicates that at some point the practice shifted from using the close intervals of re-entrant tuning to using the extended range of bass strings. And I'm sure that shift occurred before guitars became single-strung. I'm also sure it did not occur over night. In any event, you have to ask whether a bordon means bass, or just loud. Or does it mean you get to choose? When talking about a transition in practice and construction, I'm sure you can argue for whichever you feel is most appropriate for the situation. You could use a timeline to assign probability to one approach or another. But that is a false friend, because even Darwin would tell you that innovation isn't necessarily a smooth continuum. We can use musical theory of the era, but that was also in transition -- I just learned about a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi that was not unlike something you'd see on this forum. It was all about transitions in taste, theory, and composition. What other guides do we have? Physically, we're pretty much the same as people of the era, and our instruments are fairly close replicas. We can use practical limitations to guide us as well. In other words, what can you do convincingly on the instrument? I will add that for process and flow studies, the transitions are very interesting. The boundary between still and boiling water, the eddies and currents that arise before a flow becomes turbulent, the explosion of forms when bicycles were first invented, or during the Cambrian explosion of life forms... By the way, I see no incompatibility in the 150 years it took for a 6-course instrument to become the norm. How long did it take for 5 course guitars to come on the scene? Also, I believe there are contemporary examples of 4, 5, and 6 course guitar-like instruments -- their popularity rests on the popularity of their reportoir at least as much as the problems or advantages of playing them. The 4-course guitar is in use today in Portugal, the Pacific, and in lots of ukulele clubs sprinkled across the US. I think Mexico has an example, and even uses the old bridge style. Maybe these are decadant relative of the original 4-course guitar, but my point is, we haven't killed it yet... the evolution is still happening many centuries later. So 150 years don't put me off in a terrible way. cud __ When
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
[It's likely] I would not argue that point at all. I'd say it indicates that there was not a physical limitation of the hand in taking on a more varied repertoire. It's the later stage I'm talking about, in comparison to the earlier stage. The theoretical difficulties were overcome, and the barre was accepted technique. Sanz includes it liberally in his laberinto. Likewise, if the advantage of 6 strings had been sufficiently recognized at the time, I believe any theoretical impediments would have been overcome. Well, indeed that did happen -- it just took a long time, and it seems to have coincided with (or at least reinforced) hearing the bass in the 4, 5, and 6th courses. cud __ From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 7:35:11 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance [Perhaps] we should have a closer look at the early use, 1600 - 1620, of the five-course guitar and the choice of alfabeto chords that we find there. The number of barre's is very limited, and there seems to be a clear preference for 'open' chords, including unfingered strings. The other point I mentioned is the theoretical complication of leaving out the strings that do not belong to the chord (like for instance the sixth string in a D chord), for which alfabeto has no sign. Another problem is the very frequent G minor chord, which would be far more difficult to make than it is now (letter O). Of course, in a later stage, when the guitar had reached great popularity, the barre became part of the guitar technique. Lex - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Vihuelalist [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance I like thinking about the evolution from 4 to 6 strings. I'm sure we can only speculate, unless there are explicit statements made at the time that we can uses as guides. Monica and Lex, you both use words like perhaps and likely... I'm not convinced that the requirement of barre chords is an overarching impediment. The 5-course alfabeto includes barres, and Sanz (for all his simplicity) often calls for them. Also, 12-string guitars exist -- modern ones as well as those reaching back into Mexico's past -- with music that includes barre's. (I don't agree with excluding the living relatives from the discussion.) If the musical requirements of a piece ask for more strings, we have many and fantastic examples of builders adding on strings to meet the requirements... Or even adding on another instrument joined at the hip. I don't see an argument for a physical impediment to 6-course instruments, either in construction, strings, or playing capabilities. I see the impediment as conceptual, and not in any pejorative sense. There's a practical tension between range and voicing that is captured in this issue. The most difficult intervals to play on the modern guitar are close intervals. Scordaturae exist to address this issue because these voicings can be essential to a certain mood or expression. Re-entrant tuning is one way to address this issue. But with re-entrance, you sacrifice range on the scale. I see this as a practical issue, not a historical one. The simple fact is, I can play and compose music on a guitar tuned in the Sanz style that I cannot play or compose on a modern guitar -- and vis versa. The issue is historical to the extent that practice emphasized different things at different times. But it's the practice that interests me. I also believe (perhaps it is likely) that with the tuning scheme we have for the guitar, 5 courses is the limit for re-entrant tuning. Any more becomes redundant -- you have to worry about it when strumming, but it doesn't add anything new. So as long as players think in terms of re-entrant tuning, they will not have any interest in a 6-course instrument. That interest can only arise when they think in terms of extending the range of the instrument, and that extension is necessarily either up or down in pitch. It so happens for the guitar it was down. But to me it indicates that at some point the practice shifted from using the close intervals of re-entrant tuning to using the extended range of bass strings. And I'm sure that shift occurred before guitars became single-strung. I'm also sure it did not occur over night. In any event, you have to ask whether a bordon means bass, or just loud. Or does it mean you get to choose? When talking about
[VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3
Interesting... To my unschooled ears, I didn't find anything objectionable in the Foscarini. I'll admit that I'm getting tired of the ciaconna rhythm and its ilk... It's getting very popular I think because it's so approachable. Sort of like los Tangos are popular in Flamenco because anybody can locate himself in that rhythm... unlike Bularias, for example which are far more complex. Likewise the ciaconna, where I can imagine hordes of listeners swaying along gently with the tiorbo player... Very easy listening. But as to kitchen sinks and all... Well, no doubt there was some sort of control over acceptable performances and arrangements of this music. So a kitchen sink virtuoso might find it difficult to get a gig playing for the local nobility. But I find it hard to accept that there were no impromptu sessions where players of any instrument handy (sink included) might join in to play along with some of the favorites, greatest hits, etc. I think there *is* an urge to popularize early music these days. Groups mount performances that they hope look and feel like these popular impromptu sessions they imagine. That is one way to popularize the music... recreate the music's popularity. (Have I used that word root sufficiently?) The only evidence I can personally site for impromptu playing is this... I play a mandore. As far as I know, there are two manuscripts for this instrument -- F. de Chancy, and Skene. Yet there are records among luthiers and violeros showing htey made many, many examples of this instrument. Who played it, and where? What music was played on it? Surely, hundreds and hundreds of people didn't commission these instruments so they could play pieces from two manuscripts. I can only believe that people worked out their old favorites in their spare time. And I further conjecture that they joined in the fun when friends got together to play. The playing of music was the only way you were going to hear it, after all. And indeed, I have been fortunate enough to be included in some arrangements as a mandore player, although no such part was written. Historically accurate? Who knows. Musically enjoyable? For me it was. I'm sure there are other reasons to believe people joined together, with what instruments they had, to play a tune as best as they could. And so I've noticed that larger ensemble performances are ever more in vogue. It doesn't bother me all that much. I can still play solo music, I can still find smaller arrangements to listen to. I just see a different angle on the music when I hear a larger ensemble. But I am no kind of historian. Maybe I'm an example of exactly why you don't like these sorts of arrangements. But there it is... cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, August 27, 2010 7:00:18 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Dear Martyn Yes - I agree with everything you say. I haven't listened to the whole concert yet - I got as far as the Foscarini piece and gave up. Maybe I will have time for the rest this weekend. I am quite often sent CDs to review of this early Italian repertoire and the unsuitabilty of the singers in general is a problem especially we are not encouraged to say what we think! I suppose the tin-pan alley approach is adopted to try and make the music appeal to a broader audience. In the end musicians have to earn a living. Just performing the songs with a single plucked string accompaniment, which may have been the norm, is just not going to attract many to the cause. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com; Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 8:06 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Foscarini on Radio 3 Dear Monica, I very much agree about Kozena's singing: there's a fashion for well known sopranos to try their hand at small scale 'early music' but few seem to be able to make the transition succesfully (somewhat like similar rather wincing attempts at Broadway musicals). In addition to problems evident in her rendition of 'Si dolce tormento', what I found particularly disturbing was a frequent inability to get the pitch quite right - whether this was because she was trying to control her (pitch) vibrato or because she was unused to being accompanied by a relatively small band (with relatively soft instruments - bear in mind we're not hearing the performance but the performance tweaked by
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
I'd like to chime in (no pun intended) as a cured classical guitarist. (And let me add, nothing is worse than a cured drunk.) Hello, I'm Chris, and I'm a classical guitarist. Today I've been bordon - free for six months (applause). Actually, I struggled with this issue when I first got my instrument, and received some stinging replies -- the internet works that way. The point has been taken, and I'm happier for it. Indeed, the idiosyncrasies of the instrument are a very big deal. Not only do they affect the sound you hear. They affect the logic of your interpretation. I'm currently being extreme, and using the Sanz, no-bordon stringing. That means I have to ground myself with a G as the lowest note. Classical guitarists are used to grounding themselves in the lowest note of a voicing, and building their interpretation of voice leading (is that what you call it???) and melodic development on that. Well, we're also used to finding it THREE whole strings below the G. Grounding on the G in a 5-course instrument requires changes in physical logic, muscle logic, reading logic, melodic logic, and voicing logic. Probably the most difficult thing is to take a piece you learned and loved from a Narciso Yepes transcription of Sanz, and then play it on the Baroque guitar. Talk about cambio del chip, as they say in Spain... Or as the Firesign Theater once said, Everything You Know is Wrong. This is a GOOD thing. Embrace it. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 7:09:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt - Original Message - From: WALSH STUART [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Alexander Batov [2]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 9:42 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt On 24 August 2010 21:52, Alexander Batov [1][4]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com wrote: OK, I'm glad we agree on this. Alexander On 24/08/2010 21:44, Monica Hall wrote: It's not my rationale! I prefer the msuic without the bourdon on the 5th course. I've just been listening to the same suite on the CD which Lex made in 1994 - with the French tuning. Much better in every way. Monica I'd be fascinated to hear both versions! The campanellas on these videos sound great with the low bourdons - or rather, with skilful avoidance of them (when necessary, as in campanellas). And their presence is very subtle. Alexander didn't even hear the low fifth. I know Monica and Lex have disputed these matters at length. This is obviously very sophisticated music. If (if) there is not sufficient evidence for either approach, and if it comes down to preference, then I think I'd rather go for bourdons. But it would be really interesting to hear one piece side by side with and without a bourdon on the fifth. Stuart Well - that's what I was able to do as I have the CD. I think the quality of the recording of the CD is better than in the video - which is of a live performance and presumably unedited. But the point is that in the video he is trying to leave out the bourdons most of the time and to my ears this results in the campanellas sounding tentative and uneven - they don't ring out and overlap creating a bell-like effect. The idea that the skips of a 7th etc must be eliminated so that all you have is a rather feeble scale passage which would sound better played in a conventional way is misguided. That's not what happens with bell ringing. Also the bourdon on the fifth course creates an imbalence between 2 and 3 part counterpoint and the strummed 5-part chords which are too prominent - especially if they are 6-4s. There is no clear continuous bass line anyway and even in the gigue where there are imitative entries you hear these in the upper octave rather than the lower because it is impossible to leave the high octave string out. The re-entrant effect is a constant. I don't know what kind of strings he is using but in places the bourdon on the 5th course sound twangy. Overwound perhaps which Bartolotti would never have used. I would say that if you are going to use bourdons you should use plain gut ones and use them - not leave them out 90% of the time. I just find this idea that somehow all the idiocyncracies must be eliminated and the music made to sound as if it were rather inferior classical guitar music is incredibly pedantic. It is the idiocyncracies that make the
[VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar
Having just attended classes on the Baroque Guitar at La Semana de Musica Antigua in Gijon, Spain... Eduardo Eguez pointed out that the Sanz manuscript is a book of ensenyanza... that is, you're learning the pieces. Most certainly, any player above the beginner level would have taken these as suggestions, and would have improvised on these themes. That was how I took Eduardo's message on that front, anyway. Yes, there's music that is composed to the fullest extent, but Sanz (at least) seems to have made illustrations more so than compositions, per se. It may be that most of the existing guitar works are intended to be taken with a similar grain of salt? (Still thinking about that...) I have noticed a relatively recent movement in terms of Baroque guitar performance that tends toward improvisation. Xavier Diaz Latorre does this wonderfully, I think. In the same festival I attended a series of classes on disminuacion and ornamentacion. Again, the idea was that melodic lines were meant to include the addition of passing phrases from one note to another, and/or ornamentation -- all at the discretion of the performer. In a word, improvisation. And again, I notice that players are achieving this today. Interestingly, we had another set of classes that covered a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi, where Artusi complained that Monteverti's dissonances would be fine in the context of improvisation, but a serious composition should not have such things. Then back to the improvisation class where we saw an example of Monteverdi writing a series of disminuaciones and ornamentaciones in a singer's part -- to be performed exactly as written! Ostensibly, they were to sound improvised??? And of course, there's continuo, which is essentially structured improvisation. I think the bottom line is, there were lots of cases where improvisation was appropriate, and lots where it wasn't. In other words, um... er... Well, you know... cud __ From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: List LUTELIST l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 11:39:51 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Such improvised indulgences seem to me to find home amongst a greater proportion of 4- and 5-course guitarists (Lonardi, Lislevand, Ferries, etc.) than lutenists or players of modern classical or early 6-string guitars. I wonder why that is. Sometimes it sounds quite nice, but is sometimes a bit distracting. Eugene -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:20 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'List LUTELIST'; 'Vihuelalist' Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Four c. guitar Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Craddock's recording is now super-hard to find. I would love to have a copy, but can't seem to track one down at a reasonable price. Also look into: Lonardi, Massimo. 2006. Comienc,a la Musica para Guitarra. Stradivarius. Massimo plays very well indeed but for many of the little dances he adds a sort of intro/outro (and sometimes interlude) vamp. Listeners who didn't know the originals might have thought these (modern-sounding, folksy) vamps were in the original tablatures . I can see that he's trying to frame them and make them special but I've often thought of actually taking the trouble to edit them out. Stuart Marincola, Federico. 1994. Pieces pour Luth/Pieces pour Guitare. Disques Pierre Verany. Smith, Hopkinson. 1992. Alonso Mudarra: Tres Libros de Musica en Cifras Para Vihuela. Auvidis/Astree. The former is all 4-course guitar and quite nice to my ears. The latter two features mostly lute or vihuela, but include a fair number of tasty guitar solos and are also quite nice. ...Not to mention Jocelyn's fine recent effort: [3]http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/nelsonbartram. Even Anthony Rooley indulged in a little 4-course guitar on Renaissance Fantasias, but only a little. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Laura Maschi Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:05 PM To: Bruno Correia Cc: List LUTELIST Subject: [LUTE] Re: Four c. guitar Also check michael Craddock wonderful recording released around 2008... Enviado desde mi iPod El 29/07/2010, a las 23:40, Bruno Correia [6]bruno.l...@gmail.com escribio: I think John Williams never read anything
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela in Andalucia?
Almeria is not too far from Granada... You could try visiting Carlos Gonzales: [1]http://www.luthier.org/ Contact info on his bio page. He builds historical instruments, and might have a vihuela laying around. Just make sure he's there before you go -- he does festivals in the summer. cud __ From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, July 9, 2010 7:48:42 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] vihuela in Andalucia? I'll be in Granada, Cordoba and Sevilla this Summer. Any tips on visiting a guitar shop that stocks vihuelas? David -- *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.luthier.org/ 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
