subject:"Progressive Revelation"

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:43:39 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dear Gilberto,  you wrote:  Some situations now are like
 situations then, and if we understand the connection properly
 one can act accordingly. 

Sandra: 
 Undoubtedly, a Muslim will follow the teachings of Muhammed;
 a Christian the teaching of Christ;  a Jew the teachings of
 Moses;  likewise, a Baha'i will follow the teachings of
 Baha'u'llah.  The response each one makes to a given situation
 is contingent upon their personal religious convinctions and
 moral code of honor.

Sure, but at the same time, just speaking for Muslims, I would say
that the teachings of Islam cover a wide range of varied situations,
both typical situations and atypical ones or even extremes.

For example, the Quran gives guidelines in terms resisting an
oppressor or an aggressor, but there are also examples of
non-resistance. I don't know how familiar you are with the stories of
Cain and Abel in the Bible and the Quran. I Think the Bible says
something along the lines of And Cain rose up and slew Abel and
growing up with that story I'd always had the impression that Cain
surprised Abel, that he snuck up on him and beat him upside his head
with a rock or something.

 In the Quranic version it is interesting that  Cain doesn't sneak up
on Abel. He actually announces his intentions quite clearly.

[5.27] And relate to them the story of the two sons of Adam with truth
when they both offered an offering, but it was accepted from one of
them and was not accepted from the other. He said: I I will most
certainly slay you. (The other) said: Allah only accepts from those
who guard (against evil).
[5.28] If you will stretch forth your hand towards me to slay me, I am
not one to stretch forth my hand towards you to slay you surely I fear
Allah, the Lord of the worlds:
[5.29] Surely I wish that you should bear the sin committed against me
and your own sin, and so you would be of the inmates of the fire, and
this is the recompense of the unjust.
[5.30] Then his mind facilitated to him the slaying of his brother so
he slew him; then he became one of the losers


So already the Quranic dispensation has examples of resistance and
non-resistance. Already there are forms of guidance which help deal
with vastly changing circumstances. Understand?

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:12:37 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/22/2004 9:46:05 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Gilberto:
 In other words, jihad includes fighting against aggressors.
 
 Doesn't collective security include fighting against aggressors?
 
 Are you saying the in the battles of Muhammad or Hussein that they
 fought against people who weren't aggressors?
 
 I mean, it seems to me that all major religions value human life. The
 Quran says whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for
 mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever
 keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men (5:32)
 
 So for the most part, fighting and killing is something done
 reluctantly. Individuals are fought against when they pose a threat to
 the larger group. That seems like a general principle.
 
 Peace
 
 Gilberto
 I think the battle of Muhammed and the Meccans have nothing to do with
 modern warfare. Why? Because modern warfare occurs between nations. 

The war in Iraq isn't exactly between nations. And even the Bush
administration is talking about how with the war on terror the old
models don't apply. Al-Qaeedah isn't a nation. In any case, I'm not
totally convinced that nation is a morally significant category. In
violent conflicts you generally have different sides with varying
interests. If a loved one of mine dies violently I don't think I would
feel better about it if it were done by a soldier in a spiffy uniform
instead of a mafia hitman  or some terrorist in a beard, turban and
baggy pants.Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations are
largely the same.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-23 Thread John Smith

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations arelargely the same.
Not so sure. There are many types of killing.
1. Human killing humanfor revenge.
2. Human killing animal for food.
3. Human killing human to prevent him from suffering (crushed under a bolder and will die anyway).
4. Human killing human for defend one's country.
5. Human killing human to expand one's national boarders.
6. Human killing human to defend one's religion (this is what Baha'is call Jihad).
7. Human killing human to spread one's religion (this is what Baha'is call also call Jihad (i think).
8. Human killing human for fun.
9. Human killing human in thought.
10. Human killing human for justice (murderer death penalty).
11. Human killing human to protect global welfare (war on terror, UN attacking an aggressor)
12. etc.etc.
Baha'u'llah forbid, among others, #6 and #7 above. It appears to be that #6 and #7 are allowed in Islam. Correct me if I am wrong.
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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:09:39 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations are
 largely the same.
 
 Not so sure.  There are many types of killing.

I agree. Perhaps I was unclear. I certainly agree that some kinds of
killing are unethical and some are ethical. I'm not a pacifist.  But
what I'm suggesting to you is that the ethical considerations which
made different kinds of killing ok or not ok in the time of the
prophet or the time of imam hussein are essentially the same as the
ethical considerations which make different kinds of killing ok or not
ok today.

You had said that now, warfare is basically between nations and that
this was a significant difference. I'm not convinced that this is a
significant difference. In ethical terms I'm not sure why a nation
should be any different from a very big tribe. Tribes have natural
citizens, they adopted citizens, they looked out for one another, some
probably dwelt in a particular area.

That's what I'm trying to get across. Makes sense?

Peace

GIlberto
My people are hydroponic

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:09:39 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations are
 largely the same.
 
 Not so sure.  There are many types of killing.

 6.  Human killing human to defend one's religion (this is what Baha'is call
 Jihad).
 
 7.  Human killing human to spread one's religion (this is what Baha'is call
 also call Jihad (i think).
 

 
 Baha'u'llah forbid, among others,  #6 and #7 above.  It appears to be that
 #6 and #7 are allowed in Islam.  Correct me if I am wrong.
 

The Bahai writings say that Muhammad only fought defensively to stop
persecution. This would have saved lives.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-23 Thread John Smith

G: The Bahai writings say that Muhammad only fought defensively to stoppersecution. This would have saved lives.
J: So are you justifying War in some instances related to stopping religious persecution?Doesn't this contradict what you said in the other email that all wars were committed by bad Muslims? Baha'u'llah distanced war from religion to the extend that it is not even allowed as a means to stop persecution and save lives.Better to die than to smearBaha'i withanother man's blood. This to me is a mark of true sovereignty and true power.

Powerful too is the statement Baha'u'llah made about the persecution he suffered (Voice of God speaking to Baha'u'llah):
"Lament not because of the wicked. Thou wert created to bear and endure, O Patience of the worlds... Be patient, O Thou Exile of the worlds... We have made abasement the garment of glory, and affliction the adornment of Thy temple, O Pride of the worlds. ... to overlook is Thine, O Thou Concealer of the sins of the worlds." (Fire Tablet)

(Voice of Baha'u'llah to Christian monks)
"if ye transgress against Me, I will, in My long-suffering, endure it patiently, and I, verily, am the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful." (Tablet to Christians)

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-23 Thread Mark A. Foster

Hi, Scott,

At 12:11 PM 12/23/2004, you wrote:
Civil war is a phenomenon pretty much unknown in tribes. Tribes make warfare 
within anathema. Blood-feud is tightly controlled with the tribe.

In other words, tribes are, by definition, endogamous unions. Nations are 
exogamous.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-23 Thread Popeyesays





In a message dated 12/23/2004 12:24:10 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In other 
  words, tribes are, by definition, endogamous unions. Nations are 
  exogamous.

I knew we could rely on you for the proper sociological term. I studied the 
phenomena from the historical point of view - as a military historian - the 
university I was at had just started specializing in the field within the 
history department back in my early days.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-23 Thread Mark A. Foster

Gilberto,

At 12:51 PM 12/23/2004, you wrote:
But is this a morally significant difference? The Hutu and Tutsi were brought 
up elsewhere. I mean, randomly cutting up the non-combatants on  other side 
with machetes is going to be wrong whether the other side is a tribe or a 
nation

I don't know if it is morally significant or not. I also don't know if changes 
in certain laws have anything to do with the differences between tribes and 
nations. Obviously, there are still many parts of the world (parts of African, 
Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, etc.) where one's tribe is more significant than 
one's nation. 

If laws change from one Prophet to the next, it is because God has that 
prerogative.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:01:26 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/23/2004 12:46:54 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Okay, what exactly is the difference in your definitions of tribe
 and nation and more importantly why is it a morally significant
 difference? Maybe I'd have to think to find an exception. But
 basically I would tend to think that whether you are talking about a
 nation, a tribe or the mafia, the same basic moral rules would tend to
 apply to all of them.
 I was not speaking of moral differences. But the tribe and the nation are
 different things. Different things deal with the question of morality in
 different ways. When the alphabet is different, and the language is
 different and the reality of the phenomena are different, how can moral
 standards be the same?


One answer would be that any religion worth its salt will tap into
something deep and long-lasting about the human condition and won't be
just subject to moral fads which go up and down like hemlines.

The human condition, spiritual realities are more fundamental than
technology or changes in social organization.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:03:09 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 G: The Bahai writings say that Muhammad only fought defensively to stop
 persecution. This would have saved lives.
 J: So are you justifying War in some instances related to stopping religious
 persecution?  Doesn't this contradict what you said in the other email that
 all wars were committed by bad Muslims? 

I think I've been refering to more than once who Muhammad and Hussein
participated in fighting. I didn't say or mean to imply that all
fighting was wrong.

What I think you had mentioned was about Muslims *starting* wars. I
think in the above examples, the pre-existing situation of persecution
and violence *started* the wars. The Muslims were just trying to
address the situation.


 Baha'u'llah distanced war from
 religion to the extend that it is not even allowed as a means to stop
 persecution and save lives. Better to die than to smear Baha'i with another
 man's blood.  This to me is a mark of true sovereignty and true power.
  

But I would think that the value of a human life doesn't go up or down
like hemlines either. I would think that in general if a certain act
of killing was wrong after 1844 it would have been wrong before too,
no?


Peace

GIlberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-23 Thread John Smith

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

But I would think that the value of a human life doesn't go up or downlike hemlines either. I would think that in general if a certain actof killingwas wrong after 1844 it wouldhave been wrong before too,no?
J: One wayI wouldrespond is to say that morality and sense of human value change from time to time: These changes emanate from God. Before 1863 (or whenever Bahaullah outlawed it - can someone help? - ), it was a-okay to kill to defend one's religion or ward off persecution. After the pronouncement, with the Command of His Pen, the rules were changed. This change may also occur within a particular Dispensation. Since I know Baha'u'llah's writings better than I know the Qur'an, I can point to an example - In the Surih of Hajj 1, Baha'u'llah commands the shaving of one's head. In the Surih of Hajj 2 and the Aqdas, Baha'u'llah reverses the command and forbids the shaving of one's headin any circumstance.
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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-23 Thread Popeyesays





In a message dated 12/23/2004 1:28:02 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
One answer 
  would be that any religion worth its salt will tap intosomething deep and 
  long-lasting about the human condition and won't bejust subject to moral 
  fads which go up and down like hemlines.The human condition, spiritual 
  realities are more fundamental thantechnology or changes in social 
  organization.

Again, I agree. However, I would point out that IF the purpose of the 
covenant of God is to create an ever advancing civilization (the Kingdom of God 
on Earth) then the essence of the individual quandry can find _expression_ in no 
other venue than how he relates to the rest of humanity - and that is society. 
Remember Baha`u'llah forbids forswearing the world and leading a hermetic life. 
We are born of mankind and cannot withdraw from the society of mankind.

Regards,

Scott
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RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace [and NOT TO RELY UNDULY]









This is what we have in his own handwriting



***



**I
urge them to study
profoundly the revealed utterances of Baha'u'llah and the discourses of
Abdu'l-Baha and not to rely unduly on the representation and interpretation of the
Teachings given by Baha'i speakers and teachers. May the
Almighty sustain you and guide you in your work. 


(In the handwriting of Shoghi Effendi, appended to a letter dated 20 


March 1929


(Shoghi Effendi: The Importance of Deepening, Page: 206)



your brother sending his warmest regards
and desperately praying for peace [the true salaam] khazeh



The essence of these
words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the
wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly - their ears
from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly
affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust
in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made
worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and
understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and
unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the
All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom,
can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine
nearness and favour, UNLESS AND UNTIL HE CEASES TO REGARD THE WORDS and deeds
of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God
and His Prophets. 

 (Baha'u'llah: The
Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 3-4)










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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

My understanding is that Shoghi Effendi's references to proselytization 
(conversion) are similar to the qur'anic prohibition on compulsion in 
religion. In other words, he did not want Baha'is to use threats or pressure 
to entice someone to convert.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

Gilberto,

At 07:06 AM 12/22/2004, you wrote:
Fair enough. I'm not taking an issue with the policy as practiced but how it 
is described. If Bahais, in principle, have essentially  the same policy as 
Muslims. What does it mean that Bahais say We don't prosyletize but Muslims 
don't make the same denial?

It is the fallacy of naming. Many people assume that if someone else is using 
the same word, she or he means the same thing by it.

To my knowledge, Shoghi Effendi never said that proselytizing was taught in the 
Qur'an. 

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-22 Thread Patti Goebel

 Gilberto:
 Yes, exactly. Many religions prosyletize. But the Bahais give the
 impression of prosyletizing, but not admitting that they are
 prosyletizing.

 . . .

 And looking at the Bahais by themselves it might be possible to say
 that there is just some isolated misunderstanding. But then when I
 think of other communities which try to spread their message, they
 certainly admit candidly to trying to spread their message.

 It's the Bahahis which stand out as doing something which they say
 they don't do.

 Maybe it is a word issue. When I first got on this group, it was
 interesting to read that in the Ruhi classes people were discouraged
 from using dictionaries. But it still gives an impression of
 dishonesty.


I agree that it gives the impression of dishonesty; however, as I stated I
think that the problem is the lack of volcabulary understanding among some
of the Baha'is.  I think someone just made the statement that Baha'is don't
prostelytize  I got repeated over and over, without somone stopping to look
up the dictionary meaning.  I think that Mark's analogy with the idea of
compulsion in religion is a good one.

I, like our dear brother Kazeh, urge you to judge the Faith on the
authoratative statements of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi,  the
House of Justice rather than on the words and interpretations of individual
Baha'is.  This includes a statement I remember you quoting in a previous
post from Promulgation of Universal Peace.  Please note that the statement
you quoted is not necessarily authoratative because that book is not written
or reviewed by Abdu'l-Baha, but rather it was notes that individual people
took of the talks and may have been shaded by their understandings of what
was said.


  Also, touching on another aspect of this thread, please note that (at
least)
  from a Baha'i viewpoint it's a totally different thing for a
Manifestation
  of God (i.e. Mohammad, the Bab, or Baha'u'llah) to threaten hellfire
than
  it is for a human.

 But I think that most religions would make the same distinction. e.g.
 I'm not telling you you are goin' to hell. God is telling you your're
 goin' to hell. Unless you change your ways. It says right here in the
 Bible.


Yes, most religions would probably make the same distinction.  But, in my
opinion a Baha'i who is being true to Baha'ullah's teachings would never say
that, because in effect by saying God is telling you you're goin' to hell
one is making a judgment that no individual human has the right to make.



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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace





In a message dated 12/22/2004 7:07:07 AM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 On Wed, 
  22 Dec 2004 03:39:01 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: My understanding is that Shoghi Effendi's references to 
  proselytization (conversion) are similar to the qur'anic prohibition on 
  "compulsion in religion." In other words, he did not want Baha'is to use 
  threats or pressure to entice someone to convert.Fair enough. I'm not 
  taking an issue with the policy as practiced buthow it is described. If 
  Bahais, in principle, have essentially thesame policy as Muslims. 
  What does it mean that Bahais say "We don'tprosyletize" but Muslims don't 
  make the same denial?


Would it not be better to say it in Baha`i terms for understanding:

Baha`is say: Don't compell people to accept a particular religion, but 
muslims don't make the same denial?

Well, of course muslims make the same denial.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:48:52 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/22/2004 7:07:07 AM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 03:39:01 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  My understanding is that Shoghi Effendi's references to proselytization
 (conversion) are similar to the qur'anic prohibition on compulsion in
 religion. In other words, he did not want Baha'is to use threats or
 pressure to entice someone to convert.
 
 Fair enough. I'm not taking an issue with the policy as practiced but
 how it is described. If Bahais, in principle, have essentially  the
 same policy as Muslims. What does it mean that Bahais say We don't
 prosyletize but Muslims don't make the same denial?
 
  
 Would it not be better to say it in Baha`i terms for understanding:
 Baha`is say: Don't compell people to accept a particular religion, but
 muslims don't make the same denial?  
 Well, of course muslims make the same denial.


I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If when Bahais say we don't
proselytize they mean the same thing which is in the Quran there is
no compulsion in religion then they should say Both Islam and the
Bahai faith are opposed to proselytizing. But when Bahais say We
don't proselytize it certainly gives the impression of an absolute
statement,. that they are claiming not to proselytize at all while
other religions do. If Bahais said We actually do proselytize but we
are really really nice about it I think that's
actually true and would be more honest, even if it doesn't sound as
impressive as the idea of not proselytizing at all.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace





In a message dated 12/22/2004 10:31:01 AM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm not sure 
  exactly what you mean. If when Bahais say "we don'tproselytize" they mean 
  the same thing which is in the Quran "there isno compulsion in religion" 
  then they should say "Both Islam and theBahai faith are opposed to 
  proselytizing". But when Bahais say "Wedon't proselytize" it certainly 
  gives the impression of an absolutestatement,. that they are claiming not 
  to proselytize at all whileother religions do. 

When I say "Baha`i's believe . . . " I am not making an absolute statement, 
because Baha`i's may disagree with me. Why when I say "Baha`i's do not condone 
proselytizing.", should it be construed to make ANY statement about Islam, 
Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism. Sabaeanism, Sikhism, 
Confucionsism, Taoism, Shintoism, Paganism, Animism, Satanism, or any other 
"ism"?

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace





In a message dated 12/22/2004 10:52:20 AM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If that's 
  the case, then the Bahais should say "We believe in certaindistinctions 
  between the roles of men and women and we believe thatwisdom behind these 
  rules will be apparent at some point in thedistant future.". To just say 
  "we believe in absolute gender equality"and leave it at that seems 
  dishonest.

You know Gilberto, I cannot think of a single place that promotes absolute 
gender equality in the writings. The writings affirm that both man and woman are 
equal in the sight of God. The writings say over and over that genders have 
different capacities and different responsibilities. No matter how much one 
speaks of gender equality a man cannot bear a child. Baha`u'llah says that if a 
father has money ONLY to educate ONE of his two children he should educate the 
female,because she will be the first educator of her own children. is this 
absolute gender equality? No. It is recognition of the special capacities and 
responsibilities of the female.

yet even with these disparate capacities God views both the man and the 
woman as equal in His sight.

So the term "absolute gender equality" is contrary to the Baha`i Writings. 
If individuals try to use that term in teaching it is their own error and not 
the error of Baha`u'llah, Abdu'l Baha, Shoghi Effendi or the institutions of the 
faith.

One should not blame Muhammed because some of His followers propose that 
one should go against Muhammed's clear intent in the name of Muhammed's 
religion. neither should one blame the faith for the mistakes of SOME of its 
followers.

Regards,

Scott
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RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace


Peace

Gilberto

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If when Bahá'ís say we don't
proselytize they mean the same thing which is in the Quran there is
no compulsion in religion then they should say Both Islam and the
Bahai Faith is opposed to proselytizing. But when Bahá'ís say We
don't proselytize it certainly gives the impression of an absolute
statement, that they are claiming not to proselytize at all while
other religions do. If Bahá'ís said We actually do proselytize but we
are really really nice about it I think that's
actually true and would be more honest, even if it doesn't sound as
impressive as the idea of not proselytizing at all.

Peace

Gilberto

On this matter of proselytizing dear dear Gilberto you have made some cogent
points some lucid and coherent points and again because of fairness I would
agree with you.

Some of what you say is true but again as I mentioned before we must direct
our eyes on that which has been written by Baha'u'llah, by 'Abdu'l-Baha, the
Guardian, and the Universal House of Justice:

Care, however, should, at all times, be exercised, lest in their
eagerness to further the international interests of the Faith they frustrate
their purpose, and turn away, through any ACT THAT MIGHT BE MISCONSTRUED AS
AN ATTEMPT TO PROSELYTIZE AND BRING UNDUE PRESSURE UPON THEM, THOSE WHOM
THEY WISH TO WIN OVER TO THEIR CAUSE. 
(Shoghi Effendi:  The Advent of Divine Justice, Page: 66)***

Notice there is no doubt that we do wish to win over humanity to the Cause
of God.

All the Manifestations were commanded to TEACH
**Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations**
Mark 6:34
And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion
toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began
to teach them many things.
Acts 5:42
And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and
preach Jesus Christ.

And in the Holy Qur'an
005.067 
YUSUFALI: O Messenger! PROCLAIM [BALLIGH]the (message) which hath been sent
to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled
and proclaimed His mission. And God will defend thee from men (who mean
mischief). For God guideth not those who reject Faith. 
PICKTHAL: O Messenger! MAKE KNOWN [BALLIGH] that which hath been revealed
unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed
His message. God will protect thee from mankind. Lo! God guideth not the
disbelieving folk. 
SHAKIR: O Messenger! DELIVER [BALLIGH]what bas been revealed to you from
your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message,
and God will protect you from the people; surely God will not guide the
unbelieving people.
From the singular imperative BALLIGH  you get TABLEEGH  [which is the word
used in all the Baha'I Writings and which is most commonly translated as
TEACHING]

But guidance ultimately is empowered enabled by God
030.053 
YUSUFALI: Nor canst thou lead back the blind from their straying: only those
wilt thou make to hear, who believe in Our signs and submit (their wills in
Islam). 
PICKTHAL: Nor canst thou guide the blind out of their error. Thou canst make
none to hear save those who believe in Our revelations so that they
surrender (unto Him). 
SHAKIR: Nor can you lead away the blind out of their error. You cannot make
to hear any but those who believe in Our communications so they shall
submit.

028.056 
YUSUFALI: IT IS TRUE THOU WILT NOT BE ABLE TO GUIDE EVERY ONE, WHOM THOU
LOVEST; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who
receive guidance. 
PICKTHAL: LO! THOU (O MUHAMMAD) GUIDEST NOT WHOM THOU LOVEST, BUT GOD
GUIDETH WHOM HE WILL. And He is Best Aware of those who walk aright. 
SHAKIR: Surely YOU CANNOT GUIDE WHOM YOU LOVE, but God guides whom He
pleases, and He knows best the followers of the right way.

And as we read
  Today the greatest of all divine bestowals is teaching the Cause of God
for it is fraught with confirmations.  Every teacher is confirmed and is
favoured at the Divine Threshold
(`Abdu'l-Baha)
But Teaching is seen within the overall picture of TRANSFORMATION
** Today it behoveth one and all to forgo the mention of all else, and to
disregard all things.  Let their speaking, let their inner state be summed
up thus:  `Keep all my words of prayer and praise confined to one refrain;
make all my life but servitude to Thee.'  That is, let them concentrate all
their thoughts, all their words, on teaching the Cause of God and spreading
the Faith of God, and inspiring all to characterize themselves with the
characteristics of God; on loving mankind; on being pure and holy in all
things, and spotless in their public and private life; on being upright and
detached, and fervent, and afire.  All is to be yielded up, save only the
remembrance of God; all is to be dispraised, except His praise.  Today, to
this melody of the Company on high, the world will leap and dance:  `Glory
be to my Lord, the

RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

Wouldn't the behaviours of Muhammad or even Hussein have
also been permitted under righteous warfare?

Peace

Gilberto

In relation to Muhammad:
*** The military expeditions of Muhammad, on the contrary, were always
defensive actions: a proof of this is that during thirteen years, in Mecca,
He and His followers endured the most violent persecutions.  At this period
they were the target for the arrows of hatred:  some of His companions were
killed and their property confiscated; others fled to foreign lands.
Muhammad Himself, after the most extreme persecutions by the Qurayshites,
who finally resolved to kill Him, fled to Medina in the middle of the night.
Yet even then His enemies did not cease their persecutions, but pursued Him
to Medina, and His disciples even to Abyssinia. 
(`Abdu'l-Baha:  Some Answered Questions, Pages: 18-19)***

In relation to the Imam Husayn
Please Please see
http://bahai-library.com/theses/dying/dying5.shiism.html#RTFToC13
The Martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali 

  The principal events surrounding the death of Imam Husayn, the Prince
of Martyrs (sayyed al-shuhada') are clear and fairly well documented, though
their interpretation may not always be. However, this event soon became the
event of central significance to the entire Shii history--indeed, it became
seen as a central event in the entire history of humankind, one towards
which previous history was teleologically drawn and from which subsequent
history charted its course[52]--and its details became highly elaborated
upon and surrounded with numerous non-historical embellishments. While any
academic history of Shiism will present the details of this history, it is
only the event as seen through the eye of the believer that concerns this
project.[53] As this event is foundational for Shiism and Babism and its
details and characters will be referred to and cited frequently in this
study, a summary of the incident is necessary here. The following account,
which is representative of what has become a distinct genre of narrations of
Husayn's death, will be telescoped from an apologetic (and, incidentally,
Bahai) source: Abu'l-Qasim Faizi's The Prince of Martyrs: a brief account of
the Imam Husayn.[54]

http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/ziyarat.imam.husayn.kf.html
Lawh-i-Zíyárat-Namih-i-Imám Husayn[1]
Tablet of Visitation for Imám Husayn
A PhD thesis
http://bahai-library.com/theses/religious.unity/religious.unity.01.html
another Ph D thesis
http://bahai-library.com/?file=lawson_quran_commentary_bab.html

The Ra'fati thesis
http://bahaistudies.net/td/DevelopmentofShaykhiThought-pp1-48(Rafati).pdf





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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace





In a message dated 12/22/2004 12:35:57 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Perhaps the 
  Bahai studies list is different from soc.religion.bahai.That would be a 
  fair distinction.

The News groups are ZOOS. The worst of them is alt.revisionism. I have 
chosen to no longer participate on them because they are zoos. No one can read 
them and see anynope to communicate.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:23:35 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Wouldn't the behaviours of Muhammad or even Hussein have
 also been permitted under righteous warfare?
 
 Peace
 
 Gilberto

Thank you for the references. Maybe I should spell out more. I wasn't
really so much asking for the information. (I've seen the first
passage before and the second is a little new to me, but isn't
surprising) What I guess I'm saying is that given the noble
descriptions of the battles fought by Muhammad and Hussein in the
Bahai writings, there is absolutely nothing wrong with jihad when
understood properly. And so it doesn't make sense to blot it from the
book because there is nothing at all evil, selfish, bloodthirsty or
unnecessary in it.

And for Bahais to say that holy war has been blotted out, but
righteous warfare is A-ok, is like saying 6 is bigger than
half-a-dozen.
PEace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:40:03 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/22/2004 10:31:01 AM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If when Bahais say we don't
 proselytize they mean the same thing which is in the Quran there is
 no compulsion in religion then they should say Both Islam and the
 Bahai faith are opposed to proselytizing. But when Bahais say We
 don't proselytize it certainly gives the impression of an absolute
 statement,. that they are claiming not to proselytize at all while
 other religions do. 



 When I say Baha`i's believe . . .  I am not making an absolute statement,
 because Baha`i's may disagree with me. Why when I say Baha`i's do not
 condone proselytizing., should it be construed to make ANY statement about
 Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism.
 Sabaeanism, Sikhism, Confucionsism, Taoism, Shintoism, Paganism, Animism,
 Satanism, or any other ism?

I think very often a comparison is intended. Bahais certainly do claim
that the Bahai faith is more complete, deeper, more progressed, etc.
than other religions.

Peace

Gilberto



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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:31:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Perhaps I'm not being clear and not including all the background or
context for my comments. In another context, a Bahai claimed that the
Bahai faith is the *first* religion to teach gender equality. If that
is true, then the corollary is that Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.
do NOT teach gender equality. So in some sense that is the original
claim in the background, okay?


 In a message dated 12/22/2004 10:52:20 AM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 the Bahais should say We believe in certain
 distinctions between the roles of men and women and we believe that
 wisdom behind these rules will be apparent at some point in the
 distant future.. To just say we believe in absolute gender equality
 and leave it at that seems dishonest.

Scott:
 You know Gilberto, I cannot think of a single place that promotes absolute
 gender equality in the writings. The writings affirm that both man and woman
 are equal in the sight of God. The writings say over and over that genders
 have different capacities and different responsibilities. 

Gilberto:
Okay. And I would say that the Quran also afirms that men and women
are equal in the sight of God. While at the same time acknowledging
different responsibilities.

So to me it would make sense to look at both religions and say Islam
and the Bahahi faith both teach gender equality
Or it would be consistent to say Both Islam and the Bahai faith make
certain reasonable distinctions in roles of men and women. But to say
that the Bahahi faith teaches gender equality but Islam does not,
seems rather selective and self-serving.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

Hi, Gilberto,

At 12:35 PM 12/22/2004, you wrote:
No. You are right. It's not automatic. It can vary with context. But in order 
to survive in the world, on a regular basis we have to able to reliably 
perform this correspondence task over and over again. And we do pretty okay 
most of the time.

Or we *assume* that we do okay. Harold Garfinkel, the developer of 
ethnomethodology, a methodological approach within sociology, demonstrated 
repeatedly the manner in which people assume that the rules they follow are 
rational, and that, therefore, anyone who does not follow them is, at the 
least, irrational and, at the most, insane. These rule-making (heuristic or 
normative) processes include a frequent presumption of universality regarding 
one's own word definitions.

Frequently, one may believe that the other person has understood one's points, 
because she used familiar taxonomies, but her intentionalities, her meanings, 
were actually thoroughly different from one's own.

Suppose I tell you I don't eat pork and then you actually see me catch a 
pig, kill it, cut it up, roast it on a spit, slice off a piece, put it 
between two pieces of bread with lettuce and tomato, and start to eat it. I 
would be both surprised and moved by your faith in my integrity if you 
thought to yourself Maybe when he says 'pork' he doesn't mean what I mean 
when I say 'pork'

The more concrete one's references, the less likely confusion may result. 
However, what if one person is a Presbyterian, and the other is a Muslim or an 
Orthodox Jew. Perhaps the Muslim or Orthodox Jew assumes that the Presbyterian 
was intending, by consuming pork in front of the Muslim or Orthodox Jew, to 
cause offense. However, the dietary preferences of the Muslim or Orthodox Jew 
never crossed the Presbyterian's mind. She was simply hungry.

They can look up words in the dictionary just as easily as you can. And 
fairly consistently they seem to be mischaracterizing their own religion and 
casting aspersions on yours. At some point, trust gets more and more 
stretched. And then broken. No?

I would ask for further clarifications. However, in some cases, it may be valid 
for that trust to be broken.

Perhaps the Bahai studies list is different from soc.religion.bahai. That 
would be a fair distinction.

I don't know. It has been a long time since I have read the postings on that 
(or any) Usenet newsgroup.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace





In a message dated 12/22/2004 4:53:05 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think very 
  often a comparison is intended. Bahais certainly do claimthat the Bahai 
  faith is more complete, deeper, more progressed, etc.than other 
  religions.

A comparison may be PERCEIVED whether it is intended or not. If one SEEKS 
fault, one will find it, whether it was there or not.

Regards,

Scott
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RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace


Gilberto:
**
What I guess I'm saying is that given the noble
descriptions of the battles fought by Muhammad and Hussein in the
Bahai writings, there is absolutely nothing wrong with jihad when
understood properly. And so it doesn't make sense to blot it from the
book because there is nothing at all evil, selfish, bloodthirsty or
unnecessary in it.

And for Bahais to say that holy war has been blotted out, but
righteous warfare is A-ok, is like saying 6 is bigger than
half-a-dozen.
Peace
Gilberto

My dear Gilberto
I appreciate truly your patience with me [and indeed with all of us] and I
hope you see that our understanding is growing apace. I hope so earnestly.
You write:
***And so it doesn't make sense to blot it from the
book because there is nothing at all evil, selfish, bloodthirsty or
unnecessary in it.***

It is all to do with understanding, recognizing, the Source of Command
[S.aahib al Amr] in each Dispensation of Providence.
Of course it is the case that in the Dispensation of the Qur'an the Law was
explicit:
We are not God forbid criticizing these or belittling or stultifying these
Commandments.

The Writings of the Bahai Faith explicit disallow such a belittling

Nor does the Baha'i Revelation, claiming as it does to be the culmination of
a prophetic cycle and the fulfilment of the promise of all ages, attempt,
under any circumstances, to invalidate those first and everlasting
principles that animate and underlie the religions that have preceded it.
The God-given authority, vested in each one of them, it admits and
establishes as its firmest and ultimate basis.  It regards them in no other
light except as different stages in the eternal history and constant
evolution of one religion, Divine and indivisible, of which it itself forms
but an integral part.  It neither seeks to obscure their Divine origin, NOR
TO DWARF THE ADMITTED MAGNITUDE OF THEIR COLOSSAL ACHIEVEMENTS.  It can
countenance no attempt that seeks to distort their features or to stultify
the truths which they instill.  Its teachings do not deviate a hairbreadth
from the VERITIES THEY ENSHRINE, nor does the weight of its message detract
one jot or one tittle from the influence they exert or the loyalty they
inspire.  Far from aiming at the overthrow of the spiritual foundation of
the world's religious systems, its avowed, its unalterable purpose is to
widen their basis, to restate their fundamentals, to reconcile their aims,
to reinvigorate their life, to demonstrate their oneness, to restore the
pristine purity of their teachings, to coordinate their functions and to
assist in the realization of their highest aspirations.
(Shoghi Effendi:  World Order of Baha'u'llah, Page: 114)

So of course of course we do not stultify.
The Law of Qitaal [Religious Fighting was there
***
008.065 
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! ROUSE THE BELIEVERS TO THE FIGHT. If there are twenty
amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a
hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a
people without understanding. 

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! EXHORT THE BELIEVERS TO FIGHT. If there be of you
twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a
hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve,
because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 
SHAKIR: O Prophet! URGE THE BELIEVERS TO WAR; if there are twenty patient
ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of
you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are
a people who do not understand.***

2:193And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should
be only for God, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility
except against the oppressors.
Waqatiloohum hatta la takoona fitnatun wayakoona alddeenu lillahi fa-ini
intahaw fala AAudwana illa AAala alththalimeena


So right up till the Dawn of this Dispensation Jihad was initiated, warfare
was instituted at the Command and Fatwa of a Mujtahid.
But in this Dispensation Baha'u'llah wrote:
***
In former religions such ordinances as holy war...had been laid down and
AFFIRMED ACCORDING TO THE EXIGENCIES OF THE TIME; however, in this mighty
Revelation, in this momentous Announcement, the manifold bestowals and
favours of God have overshadowed all men, and from the horizon of the Will
of the Ever-Abiding Lord, His infallible decree hath prescribed that which
We have set forth above. 
(Baha'u'llah:  Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 28)***

So all I am begging you to consider dear Gilberto is that yes the EXIGENCIES
OF the Time of Islam are not the exigencies of today.
This is not the case of six or half a dozen

The more coherent analogy is this perhaps.

All infections in the human organism result in illness. SOME result in
fever. BUT some overwhelming infections result in SEPTIC SHOCK and NO FEVER.
As a doctor for 32 years I cannot say the EXIGENCIES  of ALL

Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace





In a message dated 12/22/2004 4:59:57 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Or it would 
  be consistent to say "Both Islam and the Bahai faith makecertain 
  reasonable distinctions in roles of men and women." But to saythat the 
  Bahahi faith teaches gender equality but Islam does not,seems rather 
  selective and self-serving.

Islam was a huge break through in gender equality for the people of the 
time.

If Baha`u'llah does not create an equally large breakthrough, then how can 
His be a distinct revelation. Both Baha`i and Islam provided such a 
breakthrough, but Baha`i came second and that breakthrough is more appropriate 
to this day and age. I think the gender equality practiced in the Baha`i Faith 
is indeedprogress.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:51:47 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/22/2004 4:59:57 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Or it would be consistent to say Both Islam and the Bahai faith make
 certain reasonable distinctions in roles of men and women. But to say
 that the Bahahi faith teaches gender equality but Islam does not,
 seems rather selective and self-serving.
 Islam was a huge break through in gender equality for the people of the
 time.
  
 If Baha`u'llah does not create an equally large breakthrough, then how can
 His be a distinct revelation.

To be honest, I'm not sure if that is particularly persuasive as an
argument. The women's movement had already gotten started before 1844.
Perhaps Bahais can say that they oppose sexism and aren't sexist. And
the Bahais along with many other groups and movements are working to
improve the condition of women in the world. But I'm not sure they can
say that they are so radically progressive that this constitutes proof
of a miraculous origin.


 Both Baha`i and Islam provided such a
 breakthrough, but Baha`i came second and that breakthrough is more
 appropriate to this day and age. I think the gender equality practiced in
 the Baha`i Faith is indeed progress.

I think Muslims and Bahais and all people of faith and conscience can
work to improve the position of women in their societies.

Peace

Gilberto



My people are hydroponic

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:30:42 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi, Gilberto,
 
 At 12:35 PM 12/22/2004, you wrote:
 No. You are right. It's not automatic. It can vary with context. But in 
 order to survive in the world, on a regular basis we have to able to 
 reliably perform this correspondence task over and over again. And we do 
 pretty okay most of the time.
 
 Or we *assume* that we do okay. 

[...]

 Frequently, one may believe that the other person has understood one's 
 points, because she used familiar taxonomies, but her intentionalities, her 
 meanings, were actually thoroughly different from one's own.

Gilberto:
You just reminded me of a joke I heard once. I'll include it at the bottom.

Gilberto:
 Suppose I tell you I don't eat pork and then you actually see me catch a 
 pig, kill it, cut it up, roast it on a spit, slice off a piece, put it 
 between two pieces of bread with lettuce and tomato, and start to eat it. I 
 would be both surprised and moved by your faith in my integrity if you 
 thought to yourself Maybe when he says 'pork' he doesn't mean what I mean 
 when I say 'pork'


Mark: 
 The more concrete one's references, the less likely confusion may result. 

Gilberto:
 They can look up words in the dictionary just as easily as you can. And 
 fairly consistently they seem to be mischaracterizing their own religion 
 and casting aspersions on yours. At some point, trust gets more and more 
 stretched. And then broken. No?

Mark:
 I would ask for further clarifications. However, in some cases, it may be 
 valid for that trust to be broken.

Peace

Gilberto

The Pope and Moishe

About a century or two ago, the Pope decided that all the Jews had to
leave the Vatican. Naturally there was a big uproar from the Jewish
community.

So the Pope made a deal. He would have a religious debate with a
member of the Jewish community. If the Jew won, they could stay. If
the Pope won, the Jews would leave.

The Jews realized that they had no choice. So they picked a middle
aged man named Moishe to represent them. Moishe asked for one addition
to the debate. To make it more interesting, neither
side would be allowed to talk. The pope agreed. 

The day of the great debate came. Moishe and the Pope sat opposite
each other for a full minute before the Pope raised his hand and
showed three fingers. Moishe looked back at him and raised one finger.
The Pope waved his fingers in a circle around his head. Moishe pointed
to the ground where he sat. The Pope pulled out a wafer and a glass of
wine. Moishe pulled out an apple. The Pope stood up and said, I give
up. This man is too good. The Jews can stay.

An hour later, the cardinals were all around the Pope asking him what
happened. The Pope said, First I held up three fingers to represent
the Trinity. He responded by holding up one finger to remind me that
there was still one God common to both our religions. Then I waved my
finger around me to show him that God was all around us. He responded
by pointing to the ground and
showing that God was also right here with us. I pulled out the wine
and the wafer to show that God absolves us from our sins. He pulled
out an apple to remind me of original sin. He had an answer for
everything. What could I do?

Meanwhile, the Jewish community had crowded around Moishe. 

What happened? they asked. 

Well, said Moishe, First he said to me that the Jews had three days
to get out of here. I told him that not one of us was leaving. Then he
told me that this whole city would be cleared of Jews. I let him know
that we were staying right here.

And then? asked a woman. 

I don't know, said Moishe. He took out his lunch and I took out mine. 


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

Dear Khazeh,

I feel like you aren't understanding what I'm saying. I try to ask
simple questions to get clear answers and instead I feel like (with
alot of love and affection) you give me long answers which avoid the
specific point being made. And it seems like either you don't see what
I'm getting at and are just missing it, or you do see what I'm getting
at and are trying to avoid it.

Perhaps first and foremost the Bahahi faith is a certain way of
thinking and a certain approach to religion more than a specific set
of propositions and doctrines? Is that what you are trying to say?

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:51:14 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Gilberto:
 **
 What I guess I'm saying is that given the noble
 descriptions of the battles fought by Muhammad and Hussein in the
 Bahai writings, there is absolutely nothing wrong with jihad when
 understood properly. And so it doesn't make sense to blot it from the
 book because there is nothing at all evil, selfish, bloodthirsty or
 unnecessary in it.
 
 And for Bahais to say that holy war has been blotted out, but
 righteous warfare is A-ok, is like saying 6 is bigger than
 half-a-dozen.



Khazeh: 
 It is all to do with understanding, recognizing, the Source of Command
 [S.aahib al Amr] in each Dispensation of Providence.
 Of course it is the case that in the Dispensation of the Qur'an the Law was
 explicit:
 We are not God forbid criticizing these or belittling or stultifying these
 Commandments.

Gilberto:
I'm not saying you are insulting or belittling those commandments. I
understand that you think very highly of Allah, Muhammad, the Quran
and the Imams.

But let's look again at the ayat of Quran which you mentioned:

 
 2:193And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should
 be only for God, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility
 except against the oppressors.
 Waqatiloohum hatta la takoona fitnatun wayakoona alddeenu lillahi fa-ini
 intahaw fala AAudwana illa AAala alththalimeena

So the Quran permits fighting against people who are persecuting, who
are oppressing. And not against those who are not oppressing. Can we
agree to that?

Now, when I read the passage in the Bahai writings, the section on
righteous warfare or read about collective security, this also gives
permission to fight against those who are aggressors but not against
those who are peaceful, correct?

So where is the progress? Are you saying that the two teachings are
the same? Or are they different?


 In a sense if Moses or Jesus lived in the Days of Muhammad in Arabia He
 would give the same Teachings and mutatis mutandis.

Okay. That is a good statement. But it is not just a matter of the
calendar. It is a matter of the specific situation. But that can all
be taken care of within the Quran and sunnah. Some situations now are
like situations then, and if we understand the connection properly one
can act accordingly.
.
Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-22 Thread Richard H. Gravelly

Gilberto wrote:
I think Muslims and Bahais and all people of faith and conscience can
work to improve the position of women in their societies.
Yes, Gilberto, you are correct in what you have written. This we must do. 
We, whatever religion we espouse, must work for the betterment of humankind. 
All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing 
civilization.(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 
214)




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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-22 Thread Richard H. Gravelly

Gilberto wrote:
So where is the progress? Are you saying that the two teachings are
the same? Or are they different?
Dear Gilberto,
The situations are entirely different.  During the time of Muhammad the 
religion of God itself was to be protected through jihad against those who 
attacked Muslims after having made a covenant not to; and against those who 
drive the muslims from their homes without provocation.  In this time, force 
is used by the world against an oppressor for the protection of mankind as a 
whole; and apparently without regard to whether or not the world is a Baha'i 
world.

In like manner, the size of the armaments of every government should be 
strictly limited, for if the preparations for war and the military forces of 
any nation should be allowed to increase, they will arouse the suspicion of 
others. The fundamental principle underlying this solemn Pact should be so 
fixed that if any government later violate any one of its provisions, all 
the governments on earth should arise to reduce it to utter submission, nay 
the human race as a whole should resolve, with every power at its disposal, 
to destroy that government. Should this greatest of all remedies be applied 
to the sick body of the world, it will assuredly recover from its ills and 
will remain eternally safe and secure.  Abdu'l-Baha quoted by Shoghi 
Effendi in The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 37)

Richard.




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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

Hi, Gilberto,

At 07:13 PM 12/22/2004, you wrote:
You just reminded me of a joke I heard once. I'll include it at the bottom.

I have actually told that one myself. ;-)

Suppose I tell you I don't eat pork and then you actually see me catch a 
pig, kill it, cut it up, roast it on a spit, slice off a piece, put it 
between two pieces of bread with lettuce and tomato, and start to eat it. I 
would be both surprised and moved by your faith in my integrity if you 
thought to yourself Maybe when he says 'pork' he doesn't mean what I mean 
when I say 'pork'

The closer one gets to something concrete, to signs (like eating pork) rather 
than symbols (like the significance of pork in particular religious contexts), 
the less likely there will be significant confusion.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-22 Thread John Smith

Gilberto:In other words, jihad includes fighting against aggressors.J:imo, the Baha'i view is that the aggressor's intentions are important. If the purpose of theaggression is religiously based (i.e. you are a Baha'i and I hate your prophet so I want tokill you), we are not allowed to fight back (and of course not allowed to initiate a religiouslybased war either).
		Do you Yahoo!? 
The all-new My Yahoo!  Get yours free! 
 
 
 


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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

Gilberto,

At 09:45 PM 12/22/2004, you wrote:
In other words, jihad includes fighting against aggressors. 

If I may, it seems to me as though you are making at least two assumptions 
which I would not make:

1. God's Will does not change.

2. Logic can be considered apart from the assumptions of a particular 
revelational paradigm.

Baha'u'llah wrote:

And likewise, reflect upon the revealed verse concerning the 'Qiblih.' ... 
when the Prophet, together with His companions, was offering the noontide 
prayer, and had already performed two of the prescribed Rik'ats, the Voice of 
Gabriel was heard again:  'Turn Thou Thy face towards the sacred Mosque.' In 
the midst of that same prayer, Muhammad suddenly turned His face away from 
Jerusalem and faced the Ka'bih. Whereupon, a profound dismay seized suddenly 
the companions of the Prophet.  Their faith was shaken severely.  So great was 
their alarm, that many of them, discontinuing their prayer, apostatized their 
faith.  Verily, God caused not this turmoil but to test and prove His servants. 
 Otherwise, He, the ideal King, could easily have left the Qiblih unchanged, 
and could have caused Jerusalem to remain the Point of Adoration unto His 
Dispensation, thereby withholding not from that holy city the distinction of 
acceptance which had been conferred upon it. 
-- The Kitab-i-Iqan,  pp.49-51

The fact that Baha'u'llah changed the law regarding jihad, but that 
`Abdu'l-Baha permitted just wars in other contexts, is the prerogative of God. 
In other words, the divine Will for the Baha'i Dispensation is dependent only 
on its revelation in Baha'u'llah, not on how it was revealed through Muhammad, 
Christ, or any other Messenger. Logic cannot be divorced from the presumptions 
of the paradigm.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace


Dear Khazeh,

I feel like you aren't understanding what I'm saying. I try to ask
simple questions to get clear answers and instead I feel like (with
alot of love and affection) you give me long answers which avoid the
specific point being made. And it seems like either you don't see what
I'm getting at and are just missing it, or you do see what I'm getting
at and are trying to avoid it.

Perhaps first and foremost the Bahahi faith is a certain way of
thinking and a certain approach to religion more than a specific set
of propositions and doctrines? Is that what you are trying to say?


Khazeh: 
 It is all to do with understanding, recognizing, the Source of Command
 [S.aahib al Amr] in each Dispensation of Providence.
 Of course it is the case that in the Dispensation of the Qur'an the Law
was
 explicit:
 We are not God forbid criticizing these or belittling or stultifying these
 Commandments.

Gilberto:
I'm not saying you are insulting or belittling those commandments. I
understand that you think very highly of Allah, Muhammad, the Quran
and the Imams.

But let's look again at the ayat of Quran which you mentioned:

 
 2:193And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion
should
 be only for God, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility
 except against the oppressors.
 Waqatiloohum hatta la takoona fitnatun wayakoona alddeenu lillahi fa-ini
 intahaw fala AAudwana illa AAala alththalimeena

So the Quran permits fighting against people who are persecuting, who
are oppressing. And not against those who are not oppressing. Can we
agree to that?

Now, when I read the passage in the Bahai writings, the section on
righteous warfare or read about collective security, this also gives
permission to fight against those who are aggressors but not against
those who are peaceful, correct?

So where is the progress? Are you saying that the two teachings are
the same? Or are they different?


 In a sense if Moses or Jesus lived in the Days of Muhammad in Arabia He
 would give the same Teachings and mutatis mutandis.

Okay. That is a good statement. But it is not just a matter of the
calendar. It is a matter of the specific situation. But that can all
be taken care of within the Quran and sunnah. Some situations now are
like situations then, and if we understand the connection properly one
can act accordingly.
.
Peace

Gilberto

Dear Gilberto
** Dear Khazeh,

I feel like you aren't understanding what I'm saying. I try to ask
simple questions to get clear answers and instead I feel like (with
a lot of love and affection) you give me long answers which avoid the
specific point being made. And it seems like either you don't see what
I'm getting at and are just missing it, or you do see what I'm getting
at and are trying to avoid it.**

Dear Gilberto I try to understand. Believe me I try to understand. I am not
avoiding answering.
These are the points I am making.
1] The Source the Ultimate Source of the Commandments of God is the Divine
Will [the Mashiyyat al-aAwwaliyyah] in Every Age and Aeon.
The Source is One. The One Who said Observe the Ten Commandments, the One
Who said : If they smite you on the right cheek turn the left The One Who
said :
Qur'an 008.065

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! EXHORT THE BELIEVERS TO FIGHT. If there be of you
twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a
hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve,
because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 
SHAKIR: O Prophet! URGE THE BELIEVERS TO WAR; if there are twenty patient
ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of
you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are
a people who do not understand.***

All the above the Source is One. That Source's Intentions are to transform,
guide, rectify, chasten, regenerate humanity in every age.
[I hope you are following me so far :)] 
BUT clearly these teachings from the Primal Source [from that Mashiyyat
al-awwaliyyah ] which Mark Foster also made reference too are not
empirically or literally the same.
Why do I say they are not EMPIRICALLY THE SAME?
Because clearly observe the SPREAD OF ISLAM
It reached Damascus, Byzantium Persia Egypt within a few decades with armies
and swords and the Book [or that which was recited of the Book] because the
Uthman Recension of the Holy Qur'an took place after some time LONG AFTER
THESE battles were fought and won.

Now is this empirically the same as the spread of Christianity in its first
three hundred years or the spread of the Bahai Faith?

There was something different.
Now I would say it was the Will of God [more or less] that the spread of
Islam be in that way. Why the more or less?
Because I do believe the Primacy of the Imam 'Ali was not recognized
universally and remained unimplemented [the Imam 'Ali was chosen as the
Fourth Caliph]...and that had enormous consequences in its own right dearest
Gilberto.

RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace


Now I would say it was the Will of God [more or less] that the spread of
Islam be in that way. Why the more or less?
Because I do believe the Primacy of the Imam 'Ali was not recognized
universally and remained unimplemented [the Imam 'Ali was chosen as the
Fourth Caliph]...and that had enormous consequences in its own right
Interestingly the texts of the most relied upon Hadiths testify to this loss

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/003.sbt.html#0

01.003.114

Volume 1, Book 3, Number 114:

of Hadith BUKHARI

Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah:


Ibn 'Abbas said, When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said,
'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after
which you will not go astray.' But 'Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously
ill, and we have got God's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.' But
the companions of the Prophet differed about this and there was a hue and
cry. On that the Prophet said to them, 'Go away (and leave me alone). It is
not right that you should quarrel in front of me. Ibn 'Abbas came out
saying, It was most unfortunate (a great disaster) that God's Apostle was
prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement
and noise. ***
Reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Kitabul-Wasiyyah in section Babut-
Tarkil-Wasiyyah, 1980 Edition, Arabic version (Saudi Arabia), v3,
P1259, Tradition (#1637/21).

The other version is given by al-Bukhari and Muslim which indicates the
role of Umar in that catastrophe:

 Sahih al-Bukhari Hadiths: 9.468 and 7.573
 Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

 When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were
 some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khatttab, the

 Prophet said: Come near let me write for you a writing after which
 you will never go astray. 'Umar said: The Prophet is seriously ill,
 and you have the Quran, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us. The
 people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, Come
 near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which
 you will not go astray, while the others said what 'Umar said. When
 they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he
 said to them, Go away and leave me. Ibn 'Abbas used to say, It was
 a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's
 Apostle from writing a statement for them.




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Re: Progressive Revelation

2004-12-21 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

Dear Susan,
You wrote:   It is just that the term itself is derived from 
Christianity. 

Well, I'm not convinced it didn't originate with 
Baha'u'llah... OK, call me a die-hard!  ; )

The Guardian translated Gleanings, published in 1952.  So, 
conceding that the actual phrase originated with him ...

I'd now be interested in knowing when and why (to whom)  the 
original passage was written.  I don't find it in any other 
books.

With regard to the Christian connection, both The Approaching 
End of The Age, by H. Grattan Guinness in 1879 AD (referenced 
by Khazeh) and The Bible: A Progressive Revelation by S.L. 
Morgan, Sr. in the 1950's (referenced by Mark) were both 
written after the Declaration of Baha'u'llah.

Whoso reciteth, in the privacy of his chamber, the verses 
revealed by God, the scattering angels of the Almighty shall 
scatter abroad the fragrance of the words uttered by his 
mouth, and shall cause the heart of every righteous man to 
throb. Though he may, at first, remain unaware of its effect, 
yet the virtue of the grace vouchsafed unto him must needs 
sooner or later exercise its influence upon his soul. 
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 
294)

There is also the world order phrase bantered about in 
recent years and will no doubt also be attributed to 
originating in the 20th Century;  however, we also have this 
from Baha'u'llah and translated by the Guardian:

LXX. The world's equilibrium hath been upset through the 
vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. 
Mankind's ordered life hath been revolutionized through the 
agency of this unique, this wondrous System -- the like of 
which mortal eyes have never witnessed.  (Baha'u'llah, 
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 136)

lovingly,  Sandra

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RE: Progressive Revelation

2004-12-21 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir

In a sense, if we look deeply, and carefully, with a sense of the Sacred in
our heart we find Progressive Revelation adumbrated/anticipated/ alluded to
in all the Holy Books.

1] Hinduism
Krishna has promised in the Bhagavad Gita that whenever righteousness is on
the decline, and unrighteousness is in the ascendant, then God, though
birthless and deathless, and the Lord of all beings, manifests Himself
through His own Yogamaya (divine potency) keeping His Nature (Prakrti) under
control. 2 He says, For the protection of the virtuous, for the extirpation
of evil-doers, and for establishing Dharma (righteousness) on a firm
footing, I am born from age to age. 
2] Judaism
Psa 96:2  Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his SALVATION FROM
DAY TO DAY.
Psa 19:2  DAY UNTO DAY uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth
knowledge. 
Psa 19:3  There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
3] New Testament
Mar 4:28  For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; FIRST the blade,
THEN the ear, AFTER that the full corn in the ear.
The commentator writes
FIRST THE BLADE - The green, tender shoot, that first starts out of the
earth before the stalk is formed.
THEN THE EAR - The original means the stalk or spire of wheat or barley, as
well as the ear.
THE FULL CORN - The ripe wheat. The grain swollen to its proper size. By
this is denoted, undoubtedly, that grace or religion in the heart is of
gradual growth. It is at first tender, feeble, perhaps almost imperceptible,
like the first shootings of the grain in the earth. Perhaps also, like
grain, it often lies long in the earth before there are signs of life. Like
the tender grain, also, it needs care, kindness, and culture. A frost, a
cold storm, or a burning sun alike injure it. So tender piety in the heart
needs care, kindness, culture. It needs shelter from the frosts and storms
of a cold, unfeeling world

And in the Holy Qur'an
023.044 
YUSUFALI: THEN SENT WE OUR MESSENGERS IN SUCCESSION: every time there came
to a people their messenger, they accused him of falsehood: so We made them
follow each other (in punishment): We made them as a tale (that is told): So
away with a people that will not believe! 
PICKTHAL: THEN WE SENT OUR MESSENGERS ONE AFTER ANOTHER. Whenever its
messenger came unto a nation they denied him; so We caused them to follow
one another (to disaster) and We made them bywords. A far removal for folk
who believe not! 
SHAKIR: Then We sent Our messengers one after another; whenever there came
to a people their messenger, they called him a liar, so We made some of them
follow others and We made them stories; so away with a people who do not
believe!
PALMER ¶ Then we sent our Apostles one after another. Whenever its Apostle
came to any nation they called him a liar; and we made some to follow
others; and we made them legends; away then with a people who do not
believe!  
SALE Afterwards we sent our Apostles, one after another. So often as their
Apostle came unto any nation, they charged him with imposture: And we caused
them successively to follow one another [to destruction]; and we made them
[only subjects of] traditional stories. Away therefore with the unbelieving
nations!  
RODWELL Then sent we our apostles one after another. Oft as their apostle
presented himself to a nation, they treated him as a liar; and we caused one
nation to follow another; and we made them the burden of a tale. Away then
with the people who believe not!  





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Re: Progressive Revelation

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:48:46 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:30:51 P.M. Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 But the Bahai faith isn't completely dissimilar to those groups. I
 think about A thief in the night and the related interpretations of
 the Millerite groups who as fundamentalists literally expected the
 coming of Jesus to bring justice and righteous to the earth.
 
  
 Yes, and it even goes further than that. The first millennial movement was
 started during the Crusades by Joachim  de Fiora who probably laid the
 groundwork for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would
 begin in the year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 in  
 the Christian one. 

Do you know how he came up with his prediction? (I don't). I mean that
would make a big difference in terms of whether switching calendars on
him is a reasonable thing to do. Did he come up with the number 1260,
and then pick the wrong start date. Or did he get 1260 AD some other
way?

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Progressive Revelation

Never mind. Joachim gets 1260 from the 42 weeks of Daniel. Which I
think is the same as the Millerites and Sears. So all of this isn't
really independent confirmation. It all just depends on how you read
the Biblical prophecy.
And over the centuries different groups have read the exact same
prophecies and used them to predict the end of the world many
different times. The Beast has been identified with everyone from Nero
to the Pope to Luther to Hitler to Ronald Regan.

Peace

Gilberto




On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:13:54 -0500, Gilberto Simpson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:48:46 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:30:51 P.M. Central Standard Time,
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  But the Bahai faith isn't completely dissimilar to those groups. I
  think about A thief in the night and the related interpretations of
  the Millerite groups who as fundamentalists literally expected the
  coming of Jesus to bring justice and righteous to the earth.
 
 
  Yes, and it even goes further than that. The first millennial movement was
  started during the Crusades by Joachim  de Fiora who probably laid the
  groundwork for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would
  begin in the year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 
  in  the Christian one.
 
 Do you know how he came up with his prediction? (I don't). I mean that
 would make a big difference in terms of whether switching calendars on
 him is a reasonable thing to do. Did he come up with the number 1260,
 and then pick the wrong start date. Or did he get 1260 AD some other
 way?
 
 Peace
 
 Gilberto
 
 My people are hydroponic
 
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-- 


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Progressive Revelation

2004-12-21 Thread Mark A. Foster

Gilberto,

At 10:28 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
So all of this isn't really independent confirmation. It all just depends on 
how you read the Biblical prophecy.

`Abdu'l-Baha was reported to have said:

The texts of the Holy Books are all symbolical, needing authoritative 
interpretation. 
-- Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.220

What do they symbolize? IMO, they symbolize the meanings in the minds of God, 
the writer, or the interpreter. In other words, prophecies, like all scriptural 
texts, whether their contents are clearly stated or ambiguous, have no 
independent meaning.

And over the centuries different groups have read the exact same prophecies 
and used them to predict the end of the world many different times. The Beast 
has been identified with everyone from Nero to the Pope to Luther to Hitler 
to Ronald Regan.

And they continue to do so. Full preterists believe that prophecies *prove* 
that Christ returned once and for all in 70 AD. Partial preterists believe they 
demonstrate that Christ returned in 70 AD and will return again in the future. 
Premillennialists, or futurists, argue that most biblical prophecies are 
fulfilled in the times immediately preceding the millennium. Historicists 
contend that prophecies have had a gradual fulfillment.

The meanings are in the minds of the interpreters, not in the texts.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Progressive Revelation

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:48:56 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 At 10:28 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
 So all of this isn't really independent confirmation. It all just depends 
 on how you read the Biblical prophecy.

 `Abdu'l-Baha was reported to have said:
 The texts of the Holy Books are all symbolical, needing authoritative 
 interpretation.
 -- Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.220

That seems like a really counter-intuitive juxtaposition of ideas. If
the scriptures are just inkblots which can mean anything, then it
doesn't makes sense that an authority can come in and tell you what
they mean. On the other hand, if the authority is really an authority
(like they have good connections with the author) then their
interpretation would at least partially convey what the text *really*
means (what the author had in mind). At least that's in the case of
scripture.

(although this inkblot perspective is growing on me. I still haven't
thought through my opinion on it. By any chance, have you seen the
movie Ghost Dog? It really reminds me of the inkblot perspective.
There are several examples in the movie of how individuals are
isolated from one another don't really communicate with one another.
Instead what happens is that one character gives out signals and the
other one makes reasonable inferences about what they want.)

Gilberto:
 And over the centuries different groups have read the exact same prophecies 
 and used them to predict the end of the world many different times. The 
 Beast has been identified with everyone from Nero to the Pope to Luther to 
 Hitler to Ronald Regan.

Mark:
 And they continue to do so. Full preterists believe that prophecies *prove* 
 that Christ returned once and for all in 70 AD. Partial preterists believe 
 they demonstrate that Christ returned in 70 AD and will return again in the 
 future. Premillennialists, or futurists, argue that most biblical prophecies 
 are fulfilled in the times immediately preceding the millennium. Historicists 
 contend that prophecies have had a gradual fulfillment.
]
Gilberto:
Okay, but aren't you willing to say that the Preterists are actually wrong?
Or are you saying that in some sense Christ really did return in 70 AD?


Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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RE: Progressive Revelation

Do you know how he came up with his prediction? (I don't).

Dear Gilberto,

Yeah, if you read the Book of Revelations there are constant references to
one thousand two hundred and sixty days. There are other references to 3 1/2
days which also figure out to 1260 if you take each day to represent a year.

warmest, Susan


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RE: Progressive Revelation

In order to get 1260 years from 3 1/2 days, you have to do a double
days-to-years conversion. First you change 3 1/2 days to 3 1/2 years. Then
you make 3 1/2 years (1260 days) into 1260 years.

Dear Mark,

Yes, of course. But if you read the Book of Revelations it becomes pretty
clear that the two numbers are used interchangeably and Abdu'l-Baha was
hardly the first person to notice this.

warmest, Susan


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Re: Progressive Revelation

2004-12-21 Thread Mark A. Foster

Gilberto,

At 11:07 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
That seems like a really counter-intuitive juxtaposition of ideas. If the 
scriptures are just inkblots which can mean anything, then it doesn't makes 
sense that an authority can come in and tell you what they mean.

I think it indicates that, although some of the writers of the books 
incorporated into the Bible apparently predicted the return of Christ, much of 
the rest is subjective and guess work.

Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
- words attributed to Jesus, cited: Matthew 25:13

On the other hand, if the authority is really an authority (like they have 
good connections with the author) then their interpretation would at least 
partially convey what the text *really* means (what the author had in mind). 
At least that's in the case of scripture.

I don't think that texts mean anything. Authors mean something. Those who 
inspire authors, including God, mean something. Interpreters mean something.

although this inkblot perspective is growing on me. 

lol. To use your analogy, all structurizations, or constructions, are, IMO, 
inkblots. Interpretations of those structurizations are standpoint 
epistemologies (Nancy Hartsock et al.). It then comes down to whether one 
accepts the authority of the person or persons holding to a particular 
standpoint.

I still haven't thought through my opinion on it. By any chance, have you 
seen the movie Ghost Dog?

No, but I just ordered the DVD from Amazon.

Okay, but aren't you willing to say that the Preterists are actually wrong? 
Or are you saying that in some sense Christ really did return in 70 AD?

It is a matter of authority. I think that the historicists come closest to the 
perspective taken by `Abdu'l-Baha. The full preterists are probably furthest 
from His perspective.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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RE: Progressive Revelation

2004-12-21 Thread Mark A. Foster

Hi, Susan,

At 12:01 PM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
Yes, of course. But if you read the Book of Revelations it becomes pretty 
clear that the two numbers are used interchangeably and Abdu'l-Baha was 
hardly the first person to notice this.

A lot of numbers, such as 12 and 40, are repeated in the texts of the Bible. 
However, they are used in different contexts.

I mentioned this point as an example of how `Abdu'l-Baha's interpretations, and 
His overall heuristics, must be accepted on faith.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Progressive Revelation

2004-12-21 Thread Richard H. Gravelly

- Original Message - 
From: Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 4:46 AM
Subject: RE: Progressive Revelation

In a sense, if we look deeply, and carefully, with a sense of the Sacred in
our heart we find Progressive Revelation adumbrated/anticipated/ alluded to
in all the Holy Books.
Dear Khazeh,
Do you have the time to post the Buddhist and Zarathustrian references of 
the same character?
I will be most appreciative if you will post them.

Thank you,
Richard. 

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RE: Progressive Revelation



A lot of numbers, such as 12 and 40, are repeated in the texts of the
Bible. However, they are used in different contexts.

Yes, I agree. What I am suggesting is that 1260 and 3 1/2 were really
interchangeable. And in this case, they are used in the same context.

warmest, Susan


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Re: Progressive Revelation

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:46:21 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a sense, if we look deeply, and carefully, with a sense of the Sacred in
 our heart we find Progressive Revelation adumbrated/anticipated/ alluded to
 in all the Holy Books.

Do you have a specific definition of Progressive Revelation that one
can refer to? Because looking at the passage you quote in the Quran:

 023.044
 YUSUFALI: THEN SENT WE OUR MESSENGERS IN SUCCESSION: every time there came
 to a people their messenger, they accused him of falsehood: so We made them
 follow each other (in punishment): We made them as a tale (that is told): So
 away with a people that will not believe!

It says you the messengers were sent one after another but it doesn't
necessarily let you say exactly how the messengers or their messages
are related. Is one message higher than another? Deeper than another?
Easier than another? Harder than another? Better? Is it the exact same
message?

For example, in Martin Ling's book What is Sufism? he talks about
the various revelations but he compares them to waves coming in from
the Ocean. Every once in a while, the wave comes, and leaves behind
water. But the water is all the same. It comes from the same Ocean. So
is that what you mean? Or are you trying to say that the water in the
new wave is different from the water in the previous wave?

Peace

Gilberto

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RE: Progressive Revelation

2004-12-21 Thread Max Jasper

|Do you have a specific definition of Progressive Revelation 
|that one can refer to? Because looking at the passage you 
|quote in the Quran:

Sure, here it is:
http://studycircle.angeltowns.com/progressive.htm


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Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-21 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir

So in your opinion, khazeh, are there any divines who guide their people
as described?

Dear Gilberto
I feel that God is bringing you closer to my heart with every letter which
you post on these important themes.  I just wish to say that I appreciate
your time and effort in sorting out these questions, and in many ways, Im
learning from you.  In going back to your substantive question above, of
course such divines exist otherwise the Pen of Bahaullah would not have
described them.  In fact, in a spiritual deep sense, I believe that there is
a creative aspect to the utterances of God in each age, and that such
divines will be created by the will of God.  Insha'Allah.  
And in this regard, I beg again that you look as I have done several times
with interest at this Message of the Universal House of Justice to all the
religious leaders of all Faiths.  
http://bahai-library.com/published.uhj/religious.leaders.html


Nor should it be thought for a moment that the followers of Baha'u'llah
either seek to degrade or even belittle the rank of the world's religious
leaders, whether Christian, Muslim, or of any other denomination, should
their conduct conform to their professions, and be worthy of the position
they occupy.  Those divines, Baha'u'llah has affirmed, ...who are truly
adorned with the ornament of knowledge and of a goodly character are,
verily, as a head to the body of the world, and as eyes to the nations.  The
guidance of men hath, at all times, been and is dependent upon these blessed
souls.  
(Shoghi Effendi:  The Promised Day is Come, Pages: 110-111)

2)  Dear Gilberto, you wrote

[Also, I just looked at some other sections of the Promised Day has Come
and I think it is better to be candid about what is in your books.
Especially now with the internet being what it is, it doesn't make any sense
to hide what is in them. In the section entitled Words to Muslim
Ecclesiastics it says:

In that same Book the Báb thus addresses the Shí'ihs, as well as the entire
body of the followers of the Prophet: O concourse of Shí'ihs!  Fear ye God,
and Our Cause, which concerneth Him Who is the Most Great Remembrance of
God. For great is its fire, as decreed in the Mother-Book. O people of the
Qur'án! Ye are as nothing unless ye submit unto the Remembrance of God and
unto this Book. If ye follow the Cause of God, We will forgive you your
sins, and if ye turn aside from Our command, We will, in truth, condemn your
souls in Our Book, unto the Most Great Fire. We, verily, do not deal
unjustly with men, even to the extent of a speck on a date stone.]

Once again, I appreciate your effort in trying to clarify different aspects
of the utterances in Bahai books.  I must say in all sincerity and humility
that there is no question of hiding any references.  The Bahai revelation,
as you kindly note, is available to everyone.  Presumably you quoted this
section is to show that there is a perceived contrast between the utterance
of the Exalted Bab here and other passages.  I would submit the following
suggestion:  When you look at all the divine scriptures, you will find
different emphases in different parts of the same book.  In relation to the
passage above for example, the Bab says that you are nothing unless you
submit   In the original Arabic, this clearly echoes this passage of the
Holy Quran in Surih 2: 113, in which if you study, God says that the
followers of the previous Dispensations are as nothing even they were busy
reciting the Book.  While in a more dramatic reference in the Quran
062.005 
YUSUFALI: The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of
the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that
of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not). Evil is the
similitude of people who falsify the Signs of God: and God guides not people
who do wrong. 
PICKTHAL: The likeness of those who are entrusted with the Law of Moses, yet
apply it not, is as the likeness of the ass carrying books. Wretched is the
likeness of folk who deny the revelations of God. And God guideth not
wrongdoing folk. 
SHAKIR: The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they
did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the
likeness of the people who reject the communications of God; and God does
not guide the unjust people.

Now, at first glance, these verses seem very strong, but the point is that
this verse is in a late Medina súrih, late in the Revelation of His Holiness
Muhammad, and the judgement is in a sense complete in that Dispensation.
Thus, the stronger utterances such as the one you have quoted from The
Promised Day is Come is indicative of such a phase in Divine Revelation.
Im sure, on reflection, you will see where Im coming from.  

Similarly, in the New Testament, in St. Matthews Gospel, towards the end of
His ministry, His Holiness Jesus Christ uttered all those Woe unto you
utterances
Mt 23:13

Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:02:03 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 So in your opinion, khazeh, are there any divines who guide their people
 as described?
 
 Dear Gilberto
 I feel that God is bringing you closer to my heart with every letter which
 you post on these important themes.  I just wish to say that I appreciate
 your time and effort in sorting out these questions, and in many ways, I'm
 learning from you. 

Gilberto:
Thank you. That is very kind of you to say.

Khazeh:
 In going back to your substantive question above, of
 course such divines exist otherwise the Pen of Baha'u'llah would not have
 described them. 

Gilberto:
But do they exist among non-Bahais in the present day?
Do they exist among Bahais in the present day?

Khazeh:
Those divines, Baha'u'llah has affirmed, ...who are truly
 adorned with the ornament of knowledge and of a goodly character are,
 verily, as a head to the body of the world, and as eyes to the nations.  The
 guidance of men hath, at all times, been and is dependent upon these blessed
 souls.  
(Shoghi Effendi:  The Promised Day is Come, Pages: 110-111)
 

Gilberto:
When I read that passage I wasn't sure if current religious leaders
were included or was it just limited to those prophets of the past.

 2)  Dear Gilberto, you wrote
 
 [Also, I just looked at some other sections of the Promised Day has Come
 and I think it is better to be candid about what is in your books.
 Especially now with the internet being what it is, it doesn't make any sense
 to hide what is in them. In the section entitled Words to Muslim
 Ecclesiastics it says:
 
 In that same Book the Bb thus addresses the Sh'ihs, as well as the entire
 body of the followers of the Prophet: O concourse of Sh'ihs!  Fear ye God,
 and Our Cause, which concerneth Him Who is the Most Great Remembrance of
 God. For great is its fire, as decreed in the Mother-Book. O people of the
 Qur'n! Ye are as nothing unless ye submit unto the Remembrance of God and
 unto this Book. If ye follow the Cause of God, We will forgive you your
 sins, and if ye turn aside from Our command, We will, in truth, condemn your
 souls in Our Book, unto the Most Great Fire. We, verily, do not deal
 unjustly with men, even to the extent of a speck on a date stone.

Khazeh:
 Once again, I appreciate your effort in trying to clarify different aspects
 of the utterances in Baha'i books.  I must say in all sincerity and humility
 that there is no question of hiding any references. 

Gilberto:
But sometimes certain Bahais make statements which construct a very
specific image of the Bahai faith. And it certainly gives the
impression that certain kinds of phrases or statements are not in the
Bahai scriptures at all. And so multiple occasions I've read things in
the writings which give a very very different impression from previous
statements, and which, to be honest, makes me feel like someone is
trying to trick people.

And in alot of ways the statements are tied up with the doctrine of
progressive revelation and are particularly directed at Islam.

For example, Bahais say that an important principle of the faith is
gender equality. But when I discover all the different ways that the
Bahai faith makes distinctions between men and women it makes me feel
lied to.

The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted from
the book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahai
concept of righteous warfare.

Bahais claim that they don't prosyletize. And when I've looked into an
explanation I've been told that it means that they don't threaten
non-Bahais with hellfire for not believing. But then that's exactly
what is found in the writings of the Bab.

It would be one thing if I were talking to a Unitarian-Universalist
who was criticizing Islam. If they wanted to criticize jihad, or the
concept of the Fire, or Islamic attitudes towards gender, I would
still probably disagree with them. And they would probably disagree
with me. But I'm more certain that I could trust them to believe what
they say they believe.

But in the case of the Bahai faith there are things in the writings
which at the very least give a very STRONG contrast to the general
image which the Bahai faith puts out.

In the case of Islam, growing up in the West, I started off with many
different stereotypes. But the more I read the Quran, or other books
about Islam, the more I realized that the stereotypes were
misrepresentations, and that in reality true Islam is very different
from the images which are put out there in the media.

In the Bahai faith I almost have the opposite experience. My initial
impressions are of the Bahai faith being this nice liberal progressive
religion with good ideals. And I think on an individual level, many of
the Bahais I've met (in person and virtually) exemplify that. But then
I read the writings in more detail or read more about certain actions
and policies of the institutions, and it seems to give a very

Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-21 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:31:07 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
For example, 
  Bahais say that an important principle of the faith isgender equality. But 
  when I discover all the different ways that theBahai faith makes 
  distinctions between men and women it makes me feellied 
to.
Scott


I find the question of women's services on the Universal House of justice 
confusing. But that decision was made first by a group containing a large 
percentage of women and the decision was unanimous. They also decided to exclude 
themselves from service on the House of Justice. They were the Hands of the 
Cause who administered the faith after the passing of the Guardian. So I see no 
conflict of interest there. Do I understand WHY there is that distinction? 
No. But I am told that in the fullness of time the reason will become 
apparent.
On the other hand we are told that peace is impossible until women take 
their full place in the governance of nations.

Gilberto:
"The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted fromthe 
book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahaiconcept of 
"righteous warfare"."

Scott
A nation may defend itself from attack but no other war is acceptable. When 
one nation is invaded ALL nations should come to the aid of the nation attacked. 
In this frame of reference, I think the original Gulf War was justifiable - in 
that Kuwait was invaded and the nations of the world united behind protecting 
the invaded nation. The Second World War was a justifiable war - both Poland and 
China were invaded and other nations came to their defense.

Gilberto:
"Bahais claim that they don't prosyletize. And when I've looked into 
anexplanation I've been told that it means that they don't 
threatennon-Bahais with hellfire for not believing. But then that's 
exactlywhat is found in the writings of the Bab."

Scott:
Baha`i's do not "proselytize" in the normal sense. We do not present 
information or material without a willing ear. That seems to be the key 
difference. As to the Writings of the Bab, the Writings of baha`u'llah abrogate 
several of those ordinances. Even in the day of the Bab hardly any Babis ever 
read the Bayan. They were far more familiar with the Qayyum'l Asma. So if you 
want to understand the Revelation of the Bab that is the place to 
concentrate.

Gilberto:
"It would be one thing if I were talking to a Unitarian-Universalistwho 
was criticizing Islam. If they wanted to criticize jihad, or theconcept of 
the Fire, or Islamic attitudes towards gender, I wouldstill probably 
disagree with them. And they would probably disagreewith me. But I'm more 
certain that I could trust them to believe whatthey say they believe."

Scott
I would submit that not understanding what someone believes does not mean 
that they are inconsistent in their beliefs. Consistency is the thing that 
attracted me most to the faith. Now, one believer's understanding may be 
different than another's. 

Gilberto:
"For example, the Bahai faith says very beautiful things about 
Allah,and the Quran, and Muhammad and the Imams. I agree. And that's 
verynice. The Bahai faith also says some very harsh things about 
Muslims.Both sides of that are necessary to get a full picture. If you 
justfocus on the negatives, you aren't seeing the whole thing. If you 
justfocus on the positives, you aren't seeing the whole thing."

Scott
Baha`u'llah speaks respectfully of all the Messengers. He also points out 
that when a new Messenger appears the clergy of the previous faith become very 
hostile and are largely responsible for keeping the people from accepting the 
new Messenger. Abdu'l Baha speaks harshly of the Jews who led the fight against 
Jesus and contributed to His ultimate faith. To the extent that they misled the 
people they are responsible for their own actions. In the light of what they did 
do, those actions are not to be approved. Is that harsh? Truth is truth. If one 
accepts that Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha are speaking truth then why do they 
speak harshly? To prevent others from committing the errors of the past. That is 
a good reason, not a harsh reason. In my opinion, of course.

Gilberto:
"Gilberto:I agree its strong, but I don't think I would want to make 
apolologiesfor that. I might try to be tactful and not have the verse 
written inneon caligraphy during a Jewish-Muslim interfaith get-together, 
but Idon't think it should be hidden. The Quran has some beautiful 
thingsto say about Jews and Christians. It also has some harsh things to 
sayabout Jews and Christians. It has some harsh things to say about 
Arabsand hypocritical "Muslims" too. And for me personally, what makes 
the"harshness" okay is that it is all has a context. Everything 
isbalanced. And to be honest, I find the tone really 
refreshingsometimes."

Scott:
Yet you condemn the figures of the Baha`i Revelation from speaking in the 
same tone for the same purpose? I find that inconsistent.

Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-21 Thread Popeyesays





In a message dated 12/21/2004 10:17:55 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Dear Scott, 
  
  What are you talking about? The Hands did not make any decision that 
  women could not serve. That had already been determined by Abdu'l-Baha and 
  Shoghi Effendi. 

I agree to this extent: The Hands were in charge they chose to follow the 
guidance of Abdu'l Baha and the instructions of Baha`u'llah. The point remains 
that they CHOSE to do so. If they had opened the election of the UHJ to women 
and themselves, who would have said "NO!". The fact that they exercised their 
trust in such an exemplary fashion is testimony to their dedication to the 
cause. It does not alter the fact that they COULD have done differently and 
created, perhaps, scores of breaches within the Cause of God at the same 
time.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-21 Thread Patti Goebel

Gilberto:
Bahais claim that they don't prosyletize. And when I've looked into an
explanation I've been told that it means that they don't threaten
non-Bahais with hellfire for not believing. But then that's exactly
what is found in the writings of the Bab.

Patti:
I agree that there is a problem here.  I've always winced when I hear
Baha'is say that we don't proselytise, because a dictionary description
(that is the one associated in my mind with the word) is:

proselytise
v : convert to another faith or religion [syn: proselytise]

When we carry out teaching campaigns to share the faith we are certainly
hoping that people will convert; however, I think that the problem is mainly
just that many Baha'is don't understand this definition of proselytize
(which is my primary definition and the reason I wince when someone tells a
seeker that Baha'is do not proselytise).  It is clear in the guidance from
Shoghi Effendi that we should not aggressively proselytize, i.e. put
people under undue pressure or threaten them with eternal hellfire.  There
is a big distinction between this and simply sharing the Faith and
explaining it to people who are interested.

Also, touching on another aspect of this thread, please note that (at least)
from a Baha'i viewpoint it's a totally different thing for a Manifestation
of God (i.e. Mohammad, the Bab, or Baha'u'llah) to threaten hellfire than
it is for a human.  The Manifestations are the only ones with the authority
to judge.  I think that most religious leaders, and most people for that
matter, have a mix of good qualities and bad qualities.  And., im the
praises or condemnations of the Manifestations for a class of religious
leaders, I think most fall somewhere in the middle.  I suspect that there
are very few who deserve complete condemnation and few who are truly and
unequivocally Holy, but that in some cases the passages or praise or
condemnation are directed at those extremes.  In sharing the faith with
others we, as individuals, have no authority to judge or threaten another.


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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:17:09 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
 Gilberto:
 The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted from
 the book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahai
 concept of righteous warfare.
 Those aren't holy wars, Gilberto. A Holy War is waged in defense of
 religion, not ones country. 
  

I don't think the Bahai writings limit the application of righteous
warfare to only fighting for a country.

If we focus on one passage, we'd even read:

A conquest can be a praiseworthy thing, and there are times when war
becomes the powerful basis of peace, and ruin the very means of
reconstruction. If, for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his
troops to block the onset of the insurgent and the aggressor, or
again, if he takes the field and distinguishes himself in a struggle
to unify a divided state and people, if, in brief, he is waging war
for a righteous purpose, then this seeming wrath is mercy itself, and
this apparent tyranny the very substance of justice and this warfare
the cornerstone of peace. Today, the task befitting great rulers is to
establish universal peace, for in this lies the freedom of all
peoples. -- The Secret of Divine Civilization, pp. 70-71. 

The text gives examples of what might constitute a righteous purpose
but nothing here limits righteous purpose to only particicular kinds
of activities.

Also, why couldn't warfare in defense of religion be included under
the principle of hikmat?

PEace

Gilberto

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RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace


  To just say we believe in absolute gender equality
and leave it at that seems dishonest.

Dear Gilberto,

Somehow you have a knack for overstating the Baha'i position so that it no
longers resembles anything we actually said. The term 'absolute' is yours,
not ours. What we are arguing is that the Baha'i Faith teaches the equality
of women and men in those areas which really matter.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying collective security is necessarily
some evil doctrine but it certainly isn't pacifism.

We never claimed to be pacifists.

 And I'm still
unclear on the exact way it is different from a true understanding of
jihad.

A jihad in Muhammad's time signified warfare to defend ones religion. This
is what is disallowed in this Dispensation.

've tried to make this point elsewhere but even according to Bahai
faith in Some Answered Questions Abdul Baha says that the jihads of
Muhammad (Saaws) were defensive.

That is true. But wars to defend our religion are forbidden.

What did Muhammad or Hussein do in
their day which wouldn't be permitted to Bahais today? Their enemies
were trying to kill them.

We will die rather than kill in the name of religion.

warmest, Susan


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Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-21 Thread Popeyesays





In a message dated 12/21/2004 11:33:21 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Dear Scott.
  
  A lot of people.It was understood that the 
  Hands were not infallible, nor was their authorityall that clear in 
  terms of the Covenant.If they had attempted to do something which so 
  clearlyflew in the face of the Guardian'sown authoritative 
  interpretations there would have been a massive 
  outcry.
  
  warmest, Susan 


And if they had done so, it would have been disastrous for the Cause. That 
the Hands behaved so impeccably is what I treasure. The Cause was in their 
hands, so to speak, and they protected it without advancing their own egos in 
the process. 

Regards,

Scott
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RE: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

2004-12-21 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir

Our dear brother Gilberto
[I say our dear Gilberto because in the Name of God I feel very close to you
and your essay today [the first in the thread of Clarification and
Progressive Revelation and Peace] is quite a remarkable one. With every
letter of yours [addressed to my lowly self personally] my respect for you
grows.

You have a sense of humour as well as fairness.
I liked particularly what you wrote here at the end
** Gilberto:
But there are ALOT of religions out there. If you looked at all the
religions of the world and decided to thoroughly completely investigate
their claims then you would never finish. If you happened to go in reverse
alphabetical order you could read for several lifetimes before getting to
the Bahá'ís. **
I really liked this :)


You also said dear Gilberto

I do hope all the killing stops in Iraq.

There is a passage of a poem by John Donne which I wish a lot more
government leaders took to heart:

Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.


Actually, that is interesting. Your kind words made me think about
something. The Bahá'ís say that the whole world is a country and mankind are
its citizens. So how does that work out in terms of how Bahá'ís see the
world? And current events?

Peace

Gilberto

This is very very important all that you wrote here.

But one thing that is clear is you often write Bahá'ís say...How do Bahá'ís
view...?

Can I beg you something? Can I plead humbly with you something?
Dear Gilbert Can I ask you something precious

Firstly one must read the sources and then by all means consort with Baha'I
discourse amongst us fallible limited contingent beings.

You are a quick reader. I reckon you read faster than me definitely.

So why do you not read the Dawn Breakers' over a weekend? And then these
three books which I have read dozens of times but which I need to read again
and again the Gleanings, the Iqan, and the World Order Letters of the
Guardian and then two essays by the Universal House of Justice The Promise
of World Peace and the Message to Religious Leaders

I swear by Allah subh.aanahu wa ta.aalaa and I swear by all the love in my
heart for the Prophet Muhammad Mustapha and His martyred Grandson the Unique
Imam Husayn so many things will be clear to you as daylight and you would
not have to worry about the vagaries the vicissitudes of opinion.

This advice to go to the texts is given so often in this Day as indeed in
the Day of the Prophet.

On a smaller point you write
But today 
 The other twenty-five letters of all knowledge have been revealed to 
 mankind whereas only two letters had been revealed previously. 
 [multiple references in the textbooks of Islamic hadiths such as the 
 Bihar]


What do the letters represent? The above just sounds like unsubstantiated
braggingGilberto

Dear Brother 

This is not bragging.
The Imam S.aadeq [the 6th Imam ] as quoted in several Books the Bih.aar ul
Anwaar [Ocean of Lights] is on the net the Imam S.aadeq [quoting that which
He heard from His Sanctified Fathers and Ancestors Whose Holy Lineage goes
to the Prophet [Peace and Salutation be upon Him] said
**  Knowledge is twenty and seven letters. All that the Prophets have
revealed are two letters thereof.  No man thus far hath known more than
these two letters.  But when the Qa'im shall arise, He will cause the
remaining twenty and five letters to be made manifest.  

This is from that Sacred Utterance of the Imam. I shall come back to it
later. But I beseech you to ponder my earlier pleading to go to the texts.

[as indeed I do and that is why large sections of the Holy Qur'an are
memorized in my humble mind]

In the meantime I have printed your letter, taking it with me to work and
thinking of it
http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu/msg01691.html

your brother sending his warmest regards and desperately praying for peace
[the true salaam] khazeh

The essence of these words is this:  they that tread the path of faith, they
that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that
is earthly - their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings,
their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth.
They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in
His way.  Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun
of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace
that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto
the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine
knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake
of the cup of divine nearness and favour, UNLESS AND UNTIL HE CEASES TO
REGARD THE WORDS and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true
understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets. 
(Baha'u'llah:  The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 3-4

Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:08:15 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/21/2004 9:31:07 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 For example, Bahais say that an important principle of the faith is
 gender equality. But when I discover all the different ways that the
 Bahai faith makes distinctions between men and women it makes me feel
 lied to.

 Scott
 I find the question of women's services on the Universal House of justice
 confusing. But that decision was made first by a group containing a large
 percentage of women and the decision was unanimous. [...]

Gilberto:
There are other gender distinctions in the Bahai faith besides just
the Universal House of Justice issue although that's obviously a
contraversial one. But I'm not even brining up the question of whether
the policy is justified. For the sake of argument, let's even assume
that it is.

 If that's the case, then the Bahais should say We believe in certain
distinctions between the roles of men and women and we believe that
wisdom behind these rules will be apparent at some point in the
distant future.. To just say we believe in absolute gender equality
and leave it at that seems dishonest.


  
 Gilberto:
 The Bahai faith says that the law of holy war has been blotted from
 the book. But then in the Bahai writings I read about the Bahai
 concept of righteous warfare.
  
 Scott
 A nation may defend itself from attack but no other war is acceptable. 

I'm not convinced that this is true. Under collective security all the
nations attack the aggressor, whether they have been attacked
individually or not. In some sense the bar for attacking an enemy has
been lowered.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying collective security is necessarily
some evil doctrine but it certainly isn't pacifism. And I'm still
unclear on the exact way it is different from a true understanding of
jihad.

I've tried to make this point elsewhere but even according to Bahai
faith in Some Answered Questions Abdul Baha says that the jihads of
Muhammad (Saaws) were defensive. What did Muhammad or Hussein do in
their day which wouldn't be permitted to Bahais today? Their enemies
were trying to kill them.



  
 Gilberto:
 It would be one thing if I were talking to a Unitarian-Universalist
 who was criticizing Islam. If they wanted to criticize jihad, or the
 concept of the Fire, or Islamic attitudes towards gender, I would
 still probably disagree with them. And they would probably disagree
 with me. But I'm more certain that I could trust them to believe what
 they say they believe.
  
 Scott
 I would submit that not understanding what someone believes does not mean
 that they are inconsistent in their beliefs. Consistency is the thing that
 attracted me most to the faith. Now, one believer's understanding may be
 different than another's. 

Gilberto:
I think that's fair. And I've certainly started to realize that
individual Bahais will have different takes on the Bahai writings. And
some are better at articulating certain doctrines.And different Bahais
put the emphasis on different aspects of the writings.

But there are cases where the inconsistency I have in mind is a
problem but we are talking about the same individual



 Gilberto:
 For example, the Bahai faith says very beautiful things about Allah,
 and the Quran, and Muhammad and the Imams. I agree. And that's very
 nice. The Bahai faith also says some very harsh things about Muslims.
 Both sides of that are necessary to get a full picture. If you just
 focus on the negatives, you aren't seeing the whole thing. If you just
 focus on the positives, you aren't seeing the whole thing.
  
 Scott
 Baha`u'llah speaks respectfully of all the Messengers. He also points out
 that when a new Messenger appears the clergy of the previous faith become
 very hostile and are largely responsible for keeping the people from
 accepting the new Messenger. Abdu'l Baha speaks harshly of the Jews who led
 the fight against Jesus and contributed to His ultimate faith. To the extent
 that they misled the people they are responsible for their own actions. In
 the light of what they did do, those actions are not to be approved. Is that
 harsh? Truth is truth. If one accepts that Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha are
 speaking truth then why do they speak harshly? To prevent others from
 committing the errors of the past. That is a good reason, not a harsh
 reason. In my opinion, of course.
  
 Gilberto:
 Gilberto:
 I agree its strong, but I don't think I would want to make apolologies
 for that. I might try to be tactful and not have the verse written in
 neon caligraphy during a Jewish-Muslim interfaith get-together, but I
 don't think it should be hidden. The Quran has some beautiful things
 to say about Jews and Christians. It also has some harsh things to say
 about Jews and Christians. It has some harsh things to say about Arabs
 and hypocritical Muslims too. And for me personally, what makes the
 harshness

Progressive Revelation

2004-12-20 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

Dear Gilberto,
If I may, I would like to interject that progressive 
Revelation is not some catch-phrase that Baha'is have adopted 
to validate a belief.  The term was first used by Baha'u'llah 
in the following quote and expanded in the second quote from 
Kitab-i-Aqdas footnotes:

XXXI. Contemplate with thine inward eye the chain of 
successive Revelations that hath linked the Manifestation of 
Adam with that of the Báb. I testify before God that each one 
of these Manifestations hath been sent down through the 
operation of the Divine Will and Purpose, that each hath been 
the bearer of a specific Message, that each hath been 
entrusted with a divinely-revealed Book and been commissioned 
to unravel the mysteries of a mighty Tablet. The measure of 
the Revelation with which every one of them hath been 
identified had been definitely fore-ordained. This, verily, is 
a token of Our favor unto them, if ye be of those that 
comprehend this truth And when this process of progressive 
Revelation culminated in the stage at which His peerless, His 
most sacred, and exalted Countenance was to be unveiled to 
men's eyes, He chose to hide His own Self behind a thousand 
veils, lest profane and mortal eyes discover His glory. This 
He did at a time when the signs and tokens of a 
divinely-appointed Revelation were being showered upon Him --  
signs and tokens which none can reckon except the Lord, your 
God, the Lord of all worlds.  (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the 
Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 74)

126. Various petitions have come before Our throne from the 
believers, concerning laws from God... We have, in 
consequence, revealed this Holy Tablet and arrayed it with the 
mantle of His Law that haply the people may keep the 
commandments of their Lord. # 98

For a number of years, Bahá'u'lláh states in one of His 
Tablets, petitions reached the Most Holy Presence from 
various lands begging for the laws of God, but We held back 
the Pen ere the appointed time had come. Not until twenty 
years from the birth of His Prophetic Mission in the 
Siyah-Chal of Tihran had elapsed did Bahá'u'lláh reveal the 
Kitáb-i-Aqdas, the Repository of the laws of His Dispensation. 
Even after its revelation the Aqdas was withheld by Him for 
some time before it was sent to the friends in Persia. This 
divinely purposed delay in the revelation of the basic laws of 
God for this age, and the subsequent gradual implementation of 
their provisions, illustrate the principle of progressive 
revelation which applies even within the ministry of each 
Prophet.  (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 219 [NOTES])

lovingly, Sandra 

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RE: Progressive Revelation

2004-12-20 Thread Susan Maneck


The term was first used by Baha'u'llah
in the following quote and expanded in the second quote from
Kitab-i-Aqdas footnotes:

snip
... And when this process of progressive
Revelation culminated in the stage at which His peerless, His
most sacred, and exalted Countenance was to be unveiled to
men's eyes,

Dear Sandra,

We talked about that passage a few months ago. The phrase translated as
Progressive Revelation here is IDHA BLAGHA AL-AMR which I think more
literally would be translated as this delivery of the Cause. It was the
Guardian who first introduced the term Progressive Revelation into Baha'i
theology and he in turn, seems to have gotten it from Christian theology.

warmest, Susan


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RE: Progressive Revelation

2004-12-20 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

Dear Susan,
Could you be a bit more explicit about this theory, as I'm not 
familiar with any possible source in Christian theology.

...he in turn, seems to have gotten it from Christian 
theology

While I'm open to a broader understanding of the term, I 
feel that because the passage from Baha'u'llah opens with : 
Contemplate with thine inward eye the chain of
successive Revelations that hath linked the Manifestation of 
Adam with that of the Báb.; He is indeed referring to the 
progressive (sequential  advancing) revelations of the 
Manifestations of God.  Granted, the Guardian elaborates on 
the progressive aspects of the Revelation as received by 
Baha'u'llah.

Thanks much!
lovingly,  Sandra 

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Re: Progressive Revelation

2004-12-20 Thread Gilberto Simpson

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:09:44 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dear Susan,
 
 Could you be a bit more explicit about this theory, as I'm not
 familiar with any possible source in Christian theology.
 
 ...he in turn, seems to have gotten it from Christian
 theology
 

There is a Christian doctrine known as dispensationalism which breaks
human history into different periods (dispensations) where God deals
with human beings in a particular way. And certain events would mark
the transition points from one dispensation to another, for example,
the fall, the flood, the calling of abraham, the bringing of the law
from Sinai, the crucifixion, etc.


Peace

Gilberto
-- 


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Progressive Revelation





In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:33:30 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
There is 
  a Christian doctrine known as dispensationalism which breakshuman history 
  into different periods (dispensations) where God dealswith human beings in 
  a particular way

Dear Gilberto, 

This was a little different. Dispensationalism is usually associated with 
fundamentalism and is based on the premise that God's way of dealing with 
humanity changed dramatically. Ideas of Progressive Revelation in the 19th 
century were based more on the notion of God enfolding His nature to us 
overtime. 

warmest, Susan 
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Re: Progressive Revelation




In a message dated 12/20/2004 5:06:45 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
While 
  I'm open to a "broader" understanding of the term, I feel that because the 
  passage from Baha'u'llah opens with : "Contemplate with thine inward eye 
  the chain ofsuccessive Revelations that hath linked the Manifestation of 
  Adam with that of the Báb.";
Dear Sandy, 

Oh I think the concept is implicit in Baha'u'llah's Writings. It is just 
that the term itself is derived from Christianity. Khazeh posted the following 
website and Table of Contents of one 19th century work on this subject on 
Bridges some time ago. Since it wasn't exactly a personal post, I'm sure he 
won't mind if I place it below. I may have to take back what I said earlier 
about dispensationalism, but I think its ties are more with Christian 
millenarianism in general. 

warmest, Susan 
The bookTHE APPROACHING END OF THE AGEVIEWED IN THE LIGHT 
OFHISTORY, PROPHECY, AND SCIENCEbyH. GRATTAN 
GUINNESSMDCCCLXXIX (1879)IS AVAILABLE ON THE 
INTERNEThttp://www.historicism.com/Guinness/Approaching/aeota.htmPart 
I.PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONCHAPTER I.GOD'S REVELATION OF 
HIMSELF TO MAN HAS BEEN A PROGRESSIVE ONE.- TRUTH INGENERAL HAS BEEN 
REVEALED PROGRESSIVELY. PROPHECY, THE DIVINE HISTORY OF THEFUTURE, CONSISTS 
OF A SERIES OF PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS.- PRACTICAL RESULTSOFTHE 
COMPREHENSION AND APPLICATION OF THIS PRINCIPLE.CHAPTER 
II.PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS AS TO THE RELATIVE PERIOD OF THE SECOND 
ADVENT OFOURLORD JESUS CHRIST.CHAPTER 
III.PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS AS TO THE MILLENNIUM, THE RESURRECTION, AND 
THEJUDGMENT.Part II.PROGRESSIVE 
INTERPRETATION.CHAPTER 1.HUMAN COMPREHENSION OF DIVINE PROPHECY 
HAS BEEN, AND WAS INTENDED TO BEPROGRESSIVE.-THREE IMPORTANT INFERENCES FROM 
DANIEL XII.9. - THERE IS ABLAMELESS AND A GUILTY IGNORANCE OF THE FULFILMENT 
OF PROPHECY. - INSTANCESOFEACH.- REASONS FOR A PARTIAL AND TEMPORARY 
OBSCURITY OF PROPHECY; AND MEANSBYWHICH PROGRESSIVE COMPREHENSION OF ITS 
SIGNIFICATION HAS BEEN GRANTED.CHAPTER II.CONSIDERATION 
OF CERTAIN BROAD PRINCIPLES, ON WHICH THE APOCALYPSE IS TO BEINTERPRETED.-IT 
IS A SYMBOLIC PROPHECY, AND MUST BE TRANSLATED INTO ORDINARYLANGUAGE BEFORE 
IT CAN BE UNDERSTOOD.CHAPTER III.THE APOCALYPSE IS A 
CONTINUING PROPHECY EXTENDING FROM ITS OWN TIME, TO THECONSUMMATION OF ALL 
THINGS.-IMPORTANCE OF HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE, IN ORDER TOITSCORRECT 
INTERPRETATION. IT IS A PROPHECY CONCERNING THE EXPERIENCES OF THECHRISTIAN 
CHURCH, IN THE WORLD, AND NOT CONCERNING THOSE OF THE 
JEWISHNATION.Part III.FORETOLD AND 
FULFILLED.CHAPTER I.THE PROPHECIES OF "BABYLON," AND "THE 
BEAST."-REASONS FOR THE EXAMINATION OFTHESE TWO PROPHECIES. -FUNDAMENTAL, 
DIVINELY INTERPRETED; PRACTICALLYIMPORTANT.-BABYLON THE GREAT REPRESENTS THE 
APOSTATE CHURCH OF ROME.CHAPTER II.THE MAN OF SIN, OR 
ANTICHRIST.A GREAT FOURFOLD PROPHECY OF FUNDAMENTAL IMPORTANCE (DAN 
7:7-27, REV 13:1-9,REV 17, 2THESS 2).- THE ROMAN POWER.-ITS LAST FORM AS 
PREDICTED HERE.-INDIVIDUAL AND DYNASTIC USE OF THE WORD "KING."- AN 
APOSTATE, BLASPHEMOUS,ANDPERSECUTING POWER,- EXACTLY ANSWERING TO THE 
ONE HERE PREDICTED, HAS BEEN INEXISTENCE FOR MORE THAN TWELVE CENTURIES, IN 
THE SUCCESSION OF THE POPES OFROME-ORIGIN OF THIS POWER.-ITS MORAL 
CHARACTER.- ITS SELF-EXALTINGUTTERANCES.-ITS SELF- EXALTING ACTS. -ITS 
SUBTLETIES; --FALSE DOCTRINES, AND LYINGWONDERS.-ITS IDOLATRIES. -ITS 
DOMINION.-ITS PERSECUTION OF THE 
SAINTS.-ITSDURATION.-ITSDOOM.Part IV.INQUIRY 
INTO THE DIVINE SYSTEM OF TIMES AND SEASONS NATURAL AND REVEALED.SECTION 
I. SOLAR AND LUNAR DOMINION CAUSAL AND CHRONOLOGICAL.CHAPTER 
I.CHRONOLOGY, BIBLICAL AND NATURAL. IS THERE HARMONY BETWEEN THE TWO? 
SOLARANDLUNAR DOMINION IN THE INORGANIC WORLD. SOLI-LUNAR CONTROL OF 
TERRESTRIALREVOLUTIONS. WINDS. RAINS, OCEAN CURRENTS. -TIDES, ELECTRIC AND 
MAGNETICVARIATIONS.CHAPTER II.SOLI-LUNAR DOMINION IN 
THE ORGANIC WORLD. EFFECTS OF LIGHT AND HEAT ON THEDEVELOPMENT AND 
DISTRIBUTION OF PLANTS AND ANIMALS AND OF THE HUMAN RACE.-DIURNAL AND 
SEASONAL CHANGES IN RELATION TO HEALTH AND DISEASE.SECTION 
II.THE LAW OF COMPLETION IN WEEKS.CHAPTER I.THE WEEK IN 
RELATION TO THE PERIODICITY OF VITAL PHENOMENA. PERIODICITY 
INTHEDEVELOPMENT OF INSECTS, FISHES, BIRDS AND MAMMALIA.-PERIODICITY IN 
THEGROWTHAND FUNCTIONAL ACTIVITY OF MANKIND IN HEALTH AND IN 
DISEASE.CHAPTER II.THE WEEK IN SCRIPTURE. THERE IS - A 
CHRONOLOGICAL SYSTEM IN SCRIPTURE.-IT ISASYSTEM OF WEEKS.- THIS SYSTEM 
IS TRACEABLE THROUGHOUT THE LAW, THE PROPHETS,AND THE GOSPEL.-THE WEEK IN 
THE MOSAIC RITUAL.-THE WEEK IN. JEWISHHISTORY.-THEWEEK IN PROPHECY.-THE 
WEEK OF DAYS -OF WEEKS-OF MONTHS-OF YEARS-OF WEEKS OFYEARS-OF YEARS OF 
YEARS-OF MILLENARIES.CHAPTER III.THE WEEK IN 
HISTORY.SCRIPTURE THE CHART OF HISTORY.-PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS AS TO 
HISTORIC ANDPROPHETIC CHRONOLOGY.- THE AGE OF THE HUMAN RACE. -OLD 
TESTAMENTCHRONOLOGY.-THE HEBREW AND THE SEPTUAGINT CHRONOLOGY COMPARED.- 
HOW ARE WE TO INTERPRETTHESYMBOLIC

Re: Progressive Revelation

2004-12-20 Thread Mark A. Foster

Hi, Gilberto,

At 10:54 PM 12/20/2004, you wrote:
If you didn't have Dispensationalism in mind, which was the Christian concept 
you were thinking of which was similar to progressive revelation?

Here is an example:

http://adams.patriot.net/~eastland/slm/ 

It isn't exactly either premillennial dispensationalism or Reformed covenant 
theology.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Progressive Revelation





In a message dated 12/20/2004 10:55:10 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If you 
  didn't have Dispensationalism in mind, which was the Christianconcept you 
  were thinking of which was similar to 
progressiverevelation?

Dear Gilberto, 

I think progressive revelation was a much more general concept in 
Christianity than Dispensationalism which is rather specific. I was raised 
liberal Presbyterian but I heard the Bible spoken of in terms of progressive 
revelation when I was growing up. Indeed, modern Process Theology in some ways 
grows out of that. 

warmest, Susan 
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Re: Progressive Revelation





In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:30:51 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But the 
  Bahai faith isn't completely dissimilar to those groups. Ithink about "A 
  thief in the night" and the related interpretations ofthe Millerite groups 
  who as fundamentalists literally expected thecoming of Jesus to bring 
  justice and righteous to the earth.


Yes, and it even goes further than that. The first millennial movement was 
started during the Crusades by Joachim de Fiora who probably laid the 
groundwork for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would 
begin in the year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 in the 
Christian one. 

warmest, Susan 
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RE: Progressive Revelation

2004-12-20 Thread dlmbrt













Susan Maneck wrote:



The first millennial movement was started
during the Crusades by Joachim de Fiora who probably laid the groundwork
for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would begin in the
year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 in the Christian
one. 

[D.A.L.] I
hadnt run across this most interesting bit of information before.
Could you give a little more of this history, or perhaps point me towards some
further reading?



Many
thanks.Dave Lambert






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Re: Progressive Revelation