[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte etc.
Again, the practicality is understood. What I should also mention is that it influences the concert choice of music: I have an 8c. To make best use of it I will play a concert that spans a 100 years. ...because I can. vs I have a 6c. I will play a concert that might have happened out of the Diversi Autori lutebook. ...because I can. We are often influenced by our instruments more than the music or the history. or (or add the following statement to the above concert choice) I have an 8c and it would be pointless to add an 8ve'd 4th course for all the music I play so I will play the pre-1560 dances w/ out. (valid, no?) Followed by: There are things about that 4th course that I don't need to know and the audience needn't learn about them either. It took me a long time to appreciate that 4th course and to get past that bothersome jangle but tho it took years I'm appreciative that I stuck to it. Are players doing themselves and their audience a disservice by being quickly dismissive of earlier instruments in the pursuit of pan-appropriate lutes? There are 6c techniques that I'd never try on a 7- or 8c. Or metal- wound basses. What I'm trying to say is that by choosing a pan-lute one loses out on the opportunity that a correct/niche lute offers, whether learning or performing. Yes, I suppose thems are the breaks. You pays your money; you takes your chances. Btw, I wonder if the re-entrant tuning in the baroque guitar was an attempt to recreate or keep that earlier jangle and to keep that full treble sound that was being lost to the 10-c, baroque lutes and giraffes. It seems to be a popular sound from 1500 - 1700 or so. Re- entrants, whether basses or octaves, seem to bother the hell out of the strict polyphonists but it can't be beat for a great strum and dance. s On Aug 23, 2013, at 12:58 PM, howard posner wrote: Mostly, it's just a question of practicality. There are only so many instruments you can afford to own and keep strung, only so many you can bring to a concert and keep in tune and find a place to stash around the stage when you're not playing them, only so many you can fly with, and only so many you can drive around town with unless you have a full-size van. You can't play Piccinini on a six-course, but you can play Francesco on an archlute. Francesco did not have this problem. On Aug 23, 2013, at 11:18 AM, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com wrote: It's an interesting trend and I don't know what to make of it, Dan. A few years ago I went to a concert of a well-known poster on this list and the Francesco pieces were played on an 8-c lute and the Dowland on a single strung archlute. It could easily be argued this was standard practice that a period player living a few years post- composer-mortem would have played their pieces thusly. (I do notice, however, the FdM pieces in British sources only appearing in predominently 6-c mss tho the Cavalcanti bucks the trend) But now I see so many single strung arch lutes replacing the double and now this Liuto Forte/arch guitar(?) that I continue to marvel. Why are we seeing so many future instruments playing past compositions? Do they really sound better? (in a sense, they sound great though I miss that 4th octave!) Are those instruments more convenient since the 'future' instrument can play more repertories? I remember years ago at LSA seminars 10-c lutes were so popular because you play Dalza to Dowland and I heard great players playing Sermisy, frottole and Pivas. Yes they sounded great but when they were played on 6-c's there was such a greater dimension to the sound. And in playing the smaller lutes more idiosychrosies came to light. (thumb around the neck, sympathetically ringing bass notes, right arm position, etc) In my case, I have tried to limit my instruments to 6-courses and this week I'm lucky enough to have a wonderful gig on Sunday w/ some period dancers. For the Arbeau and branles all is well. But the request has been made to explore Caroso and Negri in the future. I've only started to compare Il Ballerino (1581) and the Nobilita (1600). And I'm seeing my limitation very nicely in the F chords: the earlier books will unabashedly have an inversion to use as low a bass course as necessary (as in Capirola). If I were to find a 7-c for the later book should I faithfully preserve the idiosynchrosies when playing from the earlier? Ok, that's splitting hairs but there is a larger trend of future instruments on past pieces and it does raise questions --and ocassionally hackles. Oh, and here's my latest conundrum re: the Iodone concerti. What is the HIP lute for that? I suspect most of our period ren. and baroque players would not be equipped for it. The Liuto Forte certainly wouldn't be period, either, but may sound nice! Sean On Aug 23, 2013, at 10:36 AM, Dan Winheld wrote: One more thought/question
[LUTE] Re: future-instrument creep (was Liuto forte etc.)
I see. I try to design my own concerts so I have a say over my choices. Personally, I see it as a life-long graduate course worth, no doubt in the end, a whole of [SFX: Dylan wheeze into harmonica]. I guess we all try to get something different out of our playing. Of course I have to forego a lot of historical apparatus (the audience has no clue how any of the original songs went and I'm not in a doublet or can even afford a hat). But by focusing on the instrument --as far as possible-- and the years in question we can go a long way on re-enacting a possible performance and learning from the experience. From what I've seen from hand-held video recording equipment, Roman has learned and taught a lot of quite a bit about the kobsa over the years by _not_ using a pan-instrument to approximate the sound and Mark Wheeler shoots for a similar goal, fingernails (and RT's antipathy) notwithstanding. Both, to whom I am grateful, btw. By exploring the niches, we learn incrementally a little more about the music, the instrument, technique and its purpose --and it's ongoing. Learn and teach, rinse, lather, repeat. My only point, even if we assume there isn't future-instrument creep, is that the pan-instruments lead us away from enlightening niches and riches. s ps, only 9 strings on the little guitar. Tunes like butta. On Aug 23, 2013, at 2:03 PM, howard posner wrote: Two things to keep in mind: 1. I don't really think there's a future-instrument creep going on. Many of us have been lutophiles long enough to remember when we didn't know enough to raise most of the questions you bring up. Players are certainly more conscious of the variety of historical instruments, notwithstanding the occasional generalized remarks about the Old Ones or whatever around here. But doing something about it is another thing. 2. It's rare that a lute player has much of a choice about whether to play a Diversi Autori Lutebook Concert. Most of the gigs are for ensembles (as would have been the case three and four centuries ago), and sure, I'm happy to do a solo between the trio sonata and the solo cantata. I'll just put down the theorbo and play a Francesco recercar on my six-course before picking up the archlute for the cantata. I'm sure the audience won't mind waiting while I tune 31 strings. On Aug 23, 2013, at 1:45 PM, Sean Smith [1]lutesm...@mac.com wrote: Again, the practicality is understood. What I should also mention is that it influences the concert choice of music: I have an 8c. To make best use of it I will play a concert that spans a 100 years. ...because I can. vs I have a 6c. I will play a concert that might have happened out of the Diversi Autori lutebook. ...because I can. We are often influenced by our instruments more than the music or the history. or (or add the following statement to the above concert choice) I have an 8c and it would be pointless to add an 8ve'd 4th course for all the music I play so I will play the pre-1560 dances w/out. (valid, no?) Followed by: There are things about that 4th course that I don't need to know and the audience needn't learn about them either. It took me a long time to appreciate that 4th course and to get past that bothersome jangle but tho it took years I'm appreciative that I stuck to it. Are players doing themselves and their audience a disservice by being quickly dismissive of earlier instruments in the pursuit of pan-appropriate lutes? -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
On Aug 12, 2013, at 11:49 AM, Nancy Carlin wrote: What we don't have now is the record companies being the gate keepers for publicity. The flipside of this was that x is a name on a major label or any label one may have heard of --or even recorded could be the selling point for an obscure instrument with managers assuming that if x is good enough for them it could be good enough for their venue or series or one-off. That selling point has been eliminated without a replacement created for it. It is good that home recording has come within reach of so many of us but the cachet is different. In other words it's hard to build up trust and the label created an easy proxy for it. Sean : Is it just me, or do there seem to be fewer small broken consorts around these days. Back in the 60s and 70s we had the Julian Bream Consort, The Early Music Consort of London, the Consort of Musicke, London Pro Musica, The Ely Consort, the Broadside Band, the City Waites, the Extempore String Ensemble. I am finding it hard to think of anything equivalent around today, certainly in the UK. I used to travel a long way to attend their gigs and was never disappointed - Lots of fresh music performed in ways I hadn't heard before. Always very entertaining and full of variety and played to packed houses. Have they had their day? Gigs today always seem to be so serious and earnest and with much less variety to hold the attention of the Great Unwashed (ie non- lutenists). Bill From: Miles Dempster miles.demps...@gmail.com To: Lutelist List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, 12 August 2013, 17:00 Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness Forty years ago the continuo section of an early music performance hardly ever featured a finger-plucked instrument. The theorbo and archlute have since then become 'standard', providing bread and butter work for competent continuo players. Miles On 2013-08-12, at 10:45 AM, William Samson wrote: Nowadays, of course, there are very many more great quality lutenists than there were forty years ago, but there's not nearly enough work to go round to keep them all busy as concert performers. Probably their best hope of earning a crust is through teaching - either in academia or with private students - and grabbing a performing opportunity when it presents itself. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Nancy Carlin Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org PO Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA 925 / 686-5800 www.groundsanddivisions.info www.nancycarlinassociates.com
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness - Poll
I had heard some of the Bream records throughout the early 70's and they impressed me but didn't make it look at all attainable. If I might be so bold, too much flash --which, of course, sold records and filled large halls-- but didn't seem to suit the instrument. What sealed the deal for me was seeing a lute played at the local college (St John's College, Great Hall, built in late 17th century, Annapolis) by the Baltimore's Roger Harmon in '76. It finally looked, sounded and felt right. He, as a player, tutor and musicologist, created a lute world that convinced me that the music and instrument was real and worth studying. Sean On Aug 12, 2013, at 1:46 PM, Leonard Williams wrote: Bream's Dances of Dowland worked for me. And introduced me to JD as well! Leonard Williams On 8/12/13 9:12 AM, A.J. Padilla MD gla...@optonline.net wrote: I'll bet some large fraction (at least in the U.S.) of lute players, professional or avocational, got turned on by the 1960's Julian Bream album An Evening of Elizabethan Music. Even though he was playing a heavily-constructed, inauthentic LSO (Lute-Shaped Object) the artistry and the musical content were there. We should take some sort of poll. I got the LP in 1966, and my first student lute in 1980, so I only waited 14 years -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Geoff Gaherty Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 7:32 AM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness - astronomy analogy? On 12/08/13 2:46 AM, William Samson wrote: Sadly, I suspect that 'sidewalk lutenists' wouldn't attract the same queues as sidewalk astronomers. Even I, as a lutenist, have a much clearer recollection of my first view of Saturn's rings through a telescope than I have of first hearing a lute. As a matter of fact, I once saw this sidewalk lutenist in a piazza in Venice: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53488562/lutenist%20in %20Venice.jpg He was drawing quite a crowd, in fact. This was on a tour of Italy following the March 31 2006 solar eclipse in Jalu, Libya. A friend saw him a couple of months ago there, and he's now selling CDs, just as someone here suggested. I can't remember when I first _heard_ a lute, probably when I bought a Julian Bream LP of lute music, but I have a vivid memory of first _seeing_ a lute (actually a lute guitar), in a Montreal music store window at the age of 17 or 18. It was love at first sight, and I knew I had to own and play one, though it was 20 years later that I achieved that. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness - astronomy analogy?
G's and O's indeed. I remember how my lute hand coordination grew as I ground and polished my first 12 mirror. Just as I finished it (mid 90s) Saturn and Jupiter were both visible in the early evening sky. My buddy (who had intruduced me to John Dobson for the ATM classes) and I had a great year setting up our scopes on street corners in San Francisco for the public. Constant lines half a dozen deep every Fri and Sat night. Fun? Educational? Rewarding? Oh, lordy. Now, how do we do that for lutes? Sean On Aug 11, 2013, at 11:27 AM, William Samson wrote: Gadzooks and odsbodikins (as we lute-playing chappies are wont to say)! Do you think there's a case for an astro-lute breakaway group? I was curator of a public observatory in Dundee, Scotland for five years, before I retired. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mills_Observatory How many of us will be watching for Perseid meteors this evening? . . . And perhaps playing our lutes? Bill From: Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net To: Geoff Gaherty ge...@gaherty.ca; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 11 August 2013, 17:12 Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness Dear Geoff Gaherty, et alia, et aliens Its so gratifying and exciting to encounter another astro- interested person, as I attempt email near the Julian Starfest here in southern CA (communications are spotty here). The skies last night were breathtaking, stunning, in this very dried up rural region not far from Palomar Observatory. Only 25 miles away is Bruce Lamb who makes the extreme instrument cases, so I took a couple of caseless lutes to him. He lives across the street from a 101 year old man who dwells and shuffles with his walker on a 5-acre dried up estate full of coyotes and gophers. Bruce Lamb is amazing. He once starred in a 5-year long TV show about do-it-yourself home improvements, but it went belly up during the switch from VHS to DVD. He also has a big potbellied pig who does pirouettes for watermelon chunks. I also met a little deer eared Chihuahua here named Frijolita or bean. Don't know when I'll get my lutes back because Bruce is very, very busy making extreme cases for musicians worldwide. He's trying to connect with the Navy for lucrative contracts, but the Navy is so clueless it thinks plywood is eco-friendly when the truth is just the opposite--even currogated polypropylene is more eco-friendly than plywood. Thank you for writing in and sharing your website. Mark Seifert From: Geoff Gaherty [2]ge...@gaherty.ca To: [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2013 8:08 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness On 11/08/13 9:41 AM, Ron Fletcher wrote: My main point is that true historical re-enactment is not fantasy, but a desire to generate public awareness of our great heritage. For a number of years, I was music director for Poculi Ludiquae Societas, the medieval drama society at the University of Toronto's Institute of Medieval Studies during the 1980s: [4]http://groups.chass.utoronto.ca/plspls/ We were committed to meticulous historical research as well as lively performances. My job was to select music appropriate to the time and culture of the plays being performed, and to provide suitable musicians to perform it. We worked in very close association with the professional early music performers in Toronto, to everyone's mutual benefit. We used to cringe whenever anyone mentioned the Society for Creative Anachronism! Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada [5]http://www.gaherty.ca/ [6]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mills_Observatory 2. mailto:ge...@gaherty.ca 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://groups.chass.utoronto.ca/plspls/ 5. http://www.gaherty.ca/ 6. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
Does it even rise to Quixotic? On Aug 8, 2013, at 7:17 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Marketing is not necessarily good for culture. Especially marketing to the lowest possible denominator. Culture is supposed to raise the listener/spectator to its level, not to descend to his. Marketing Fuenllana to SCA is hopeless, fulile, and amounts to the proverbial pearls before swine. RT On 8/8/2013 9:57 PM, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: Regarding Society for Creative Anacronism (SCA): I see, and resonate with, your sentiments here. BUT - It's MARKETING! AND - it's raising awareness amongst the less educated, but INTERESTED miniscule fraction of the public who COULD be attracted to attend YOUR concerts. OK - I'll agree that a lot of folks who get into SCA and go to Renaissance Festivals have a very non-HIP viewpoint on what it's all about. For them it's basically play-acting, in the same way as those who attend Civil War Re-enactments, or Rendezvous Re-enactments. It creates for them warm-fuzzy feelings and an escape from every day hum-drum. BUT - I think these are people whose hearts are in the right place, and who could be enticed to concerts, and who could be willing open books to learn what life and music REALLY was like. And they spend money like fiends! These are people who would buy Sting's Songs From The Labyrinth. And don't diss the guy - he introduced this music to a HUGE cross-section of listeners who otherwise would never have given it the time of day. Thank him, and Edin for helping draw attention to the music you play. Just because a person has a warped view of reality, If they had ultimate respect for what you do, would you not want to see them as an audience member at your next concert? BTW - don't ALL of us have slightly warped views of reality? (Except for me, of course ... ) Tom My sentiment exactly. RT On 8/8/2013 6:12 PM, Braig, Eugene wrote: . . . Many (certainly not all) somehow believing that assuming a bad cockney accent; whacking each other with wooden weapons while feigning the inability to use struck limbs; and listening to modern Irish, Scottish, or English folk songs strummed by steel-strung acoustic instruments somehow relates to late-medieval/early-renaissance life. If that's your thing, go for it. Myself, I kinda prefer music. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of r.turov...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 5:37 PM To: Stephen Fryer Cc: t...@heartistrymusic.com; Nancy Carlin; erne...@aquila.mus.br; R. Mattes; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness For those who don't speak American, and don't know American mores: SCA is the Society for Creative Anachronism, and it has nothing to do with NYSCA, which is the New York State Council on the Arts. The latter is a venerable institution that funds arts here, and the former is group of uncultured boors in silly costumes who managed to completely destroy the NY Medieval Festival at Cloisters. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Big Fret Help
Hi Sterling, I just went through the exact problem as you w/ the first fret not 'lying down' about a month ago. I was also hoping on a piece of advice that wouldn't lead to removing and more carefully retying one. Yes, they are expensive at that diameter. Forgive me for watching and waiting for what other, more experienced players chimed in with. It's interesting that it will fold nicely at one point but if the fret gets rotated where that fold moves toward the string it won't lie down again. The possible lesson here is to not let that happen as we tie it. Cold comfort, I know. I found a way to keep pressure on that one raised area (after breathing warmly on it for a few minutes) over a few nights and it did eventually drop to an acceptable height. Btw, this occurs on a 6c w/ fairly low action (MHaycock). I did raise the nut w/ a few paper shims to accomodate the tastino and where MH originally spec'd 1.0mm for the 1st fret, I now use 1.15. I've tried to keep records lately to make refretting go easier but it's still the one operation that will enevitably take all afternoon and more fret gut than I'd like to use. Sean On Jul 16, 2013, at 6:08 PM, sterling price wrote: Hi- There was no problem when this lute had just -slightly- smaller frets. I was hoping there would be some remedy I could do without putting new frets on as they are quite expensive at this size. I tried loosening a fret and working it a bit to soften the edge but it wasn't successful. I might try a few other things though. As RE the high action of this lute, I have the same plan that I think Larry K Brown worked from (its the J.J Edlinger 1732 13 course). Anyway, the neck angle and enormous belly scoop/dish shown on the plan result in a high action. I realize that this feature need not be utilized in the copy lute though. --Sterling __ From: Michael Vollbrecht mollbre...@gmail.com To: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 3:22 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Big Fret Help Had the same problem recently, moving from .80 to .95 frets and in my case the remedy consisted of two things: First, I had to reform the fingerboard a little bit with a scraper so as to get it a little bit curved (it was actually curved the wrong way from the 4th fret up...). This might not be necessary in your case, just check with a metal ruler. Then you need a VERY smooth round fingerboard edge - if the radious is too smaall the fret is lifted up from the board: a bit more scraping and finishing touch with some sanding did it for me. If your lute neck is veneered (like mine) however, be careful when rounding the edge - you can easily work through this thin layer... In addition to all this, I wrapped the fret gut a couple of times around a long needle nose plier, mostly the part for the knot and where the edgdes would come: this makes the gut much more flexible, the knot is easier to tie and the gut follows the edge much more smoothly. Hope this helps! Michael On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:29 -0700, sterling price wrote: Hi all-- I recently changed the frets on my baroque lute (after many years of service). I went up from 1.10 mm to 1.20 mm on all frets. The problem I am having is there are a few frets that are not sitting all the way flat under the first course so it has a 'choked' sound on some notes. I know this wouldn't happen if the fingerboard was more curved or if I used smaller frets(not an option). Any advice on how to get these big frets to stay flat would be great. And yes they are very tight. Thanks, Sterling -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] van Eyck or others
Dear all, Are there any Antico variations in Der Fluyten Lust-Hof or other late Renaissance wind repertories? Would anyone have other suggestions where I might look for single-line examples? Thanks in advance, Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: van Eyck or others
Hi Stephen, I wish I had a title. I looked through the title pages and didn't see anything that suggested the Antico, such as Milanesa or Passemezo. I realize that by his time those variations were pretty played out but since his rep overlapped so many earlier lutebooks that did contain it I was just hoping. Thanks for checking. Sean On Jul 14, 2013, at 12:43 PM, stephen arndt wrote: None in van Eyck, at least not under that name. Is there any other name it could be under? I am nearly 100% certain that it is not there, but if you have a specific title, I'll be happy to look. I have it fewer than 10 feet away. -Original Message- From: Sean Smith Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 2:35 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] van Eyck or others Dear all, Are there any Antico variations in Der Fluyten Lust-Hof or other late Renaissance wind repertories? Would anyone have other suggestions where I might look for single-line examples? Thanks in advance, Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute in North America
Further to the cittern, you might try to access any work done by David Hildebrand. He lectures and and performs on it (as it relates to the colonial period) mostly around the east coast and particularly Maryland. Sean On Jun 23, 2013, at 1:34 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: William Brewster, a minister and elder of the Separatist Church of England came to America on the Mayflower and his baggage included many books, as well as a lute (or two?) and Richard Alison's *The Psalmes of David in Metre* (1599). He lived for many years with other exiles in Leiden, a center of lute music in Holland (where fellow preacher Adrian Smout of the Thysius Lute Book lived as a student). By the way, Alison is a lutenist-composer whose harmonically intense works deserve attention. The solo works are available in an edition by John H. Robinson with fresh biographical notes by Bob Spencer. Publ. Lute Society (UK). There is a very extensive list of musical instruments in New England in Colonial Society of Massachusetts, publ., *Music in Colonial Massachusetts, 1630-1820* 2 vols. (Boston 1980/1985), about 1200 pages. The census is drawn from probate and annual tax records of the day. (Some are reproduced in facsimile.) Personal property was inventoried annually and taxes assessed on that property. I recall as a child of a similar practice in the county where I lived. By far the most popular instrument was cittern, more popular than harpsichord or flute or violin. Perhaps this is a euphemism for English guitar. Citterns were often stored with the linens. A practice observed in England. Of plucked instruments, I count 24 citterns, 2 lutes, 2 gittorne and 2 guittawur. And 20 viols. Often cittern owners also owned viols for consort performances. There is similar book on colonial music in Virginia, but I have never seen it. In a small county museum in Virginia (?) is said to be Thomas Jefferson's lute, but someone who examined it says it is an English guitar. His daughter and a granddaughter played English guitar. The Green Mountain Boy Ethan Allen's bride Fanny took an English guitar on their honeymoon. Arthur - Original Message - From: cetter [1]cet...@centurylink.net To: Brad Walton [2]gtung.wal...@utoronto.ca; Lute List [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:01 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute in North America On 6/21/13 7:32 AM, Brad Walton [4]gtung.wal...@utoronto.ca wrote: It was interesting to read of records concerning lutes in . New England. What records are you referring to? Are there records, i.e. documents, that mention a lute in present day New England, or in any of the British colonies? I was once told that lutes were mentioned in a few probate records in colonial Mass.. But that's so vague, and I have never found any detailed information, like a name or date, or probate record book and page number, for such records. Does anyone know a specific reference to documents that mention a lute in the probate (or other) records of colonial Mass. (or any other colony)? I'd really like to read these records for myself. I've been doing my own research into colonial records for a few years now and have been on the lookout for any mention of musical instruments. I've found a few, but nothing for any lute family instruments. I have found records, mostly in estate inventories, of fiddles/violins, flutes, tin trumpets, a dulcimer, citterns, a hautboy - but nothing like a lute. Just for fun, here's an on-line reference to two court cases involving citterns in 1670's Maryland. If you want to read the full text of the court cases, there's a search box in the upper right corner where you can search on the page number or words. [5]http://aomol.net/01/60/html/am60p--50.html C.Etter To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:cet...@centurylink.net 2. mailto:gtung.wal...@utoronto.ca 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:gtung.wal...@utoronto.ca 5. http://aomol.net/01/60/html/am60p--50.html 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Aquila Nylgut Problems
Dear Ralf, I had the same experience and snapped two .42's learning that New Nylgut won't always replace the old Nylgut of the same diameter (the second course did fine). My only difference being that my mensur is 60cm. I ordered .39 NNG and that solved it. I only use nng for the 1st course, 4th 8ve and occasionally for the 2nd course (and the rest gut) so don't have experience in using it elsewhere. My guess is that in winding the old .42 ng to tension it stretched enough to actually become .39 in diameter. Nng apparantly won't stretch that long in finer diameters. Or alternately, the abrupt bend as the string leaves bridge hole may be too much for the small diameter. Old/white ng does like its stretch: It's the only string I've found that, after about 7 months as a chanterelle, that goes flat in the upper frets --leading me to believe it loses a bit more diameter in the center of its length over time. After a year of using nng I have yet to observe any intonation problems. Those older nylguts would ocassionally be tricky. I sometimes had success by winding to a 4th below pitch and waiting a while, say, an hour and then winding to a 2nd below pitch and waiting again in the theory that it needs time to adjust internally and/or in the knots. It's certainly not as forgiving as a nylon chanterelle but neither does have the nylon's sound, thankfully. Btw, I have a lute buddy whose 63cm lute has a difficult time supporting gut to that pitch and uses a .39 (or less) old ng. You might have to go back to whatever had been successful. I hope this helps. Sean On Jun 13, 2013, at 6:36 AM, R. Mattes wrote: Dear collected lute list wisdom, I just tried to switch my (late) medieval lute from all gut to all nylgut, everything fine, except: the top strings (63cm / g' @ 440 Hz - using 0.42mm) can't be put up to full tension. Both strings imediately break directly at the bridge. Strangely the aren't even close to their breaking point (at least they still feel quite elsatic). Bridge design can't be the problem - the bridge is rather soft and well worn out (and I never had a broken top at the bridge, even in much thinner gut). Is this a known problem. Did I get samples from a bad batch? TIA Ralf Mattes P.S.: off course this always happens the day before an important rehearsal ... -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: In memoriam loaded gut
Those are lovely, Martin; so wonderfully different from all that down-beat driven, passaggi fol-de-rol. As for the strings, I bought about a half dozen of them years ago and did use and enjoy them. Still have one waiting for the right place. Sean On May 28, 2013, at 6:12 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Hi All, As the opportunity arose, just made a couple of quick and dirty recordings on an 11c lute I made a couple of years ago (after Maler, 69cm) using loaded gut strings: www.luteshop.co.uk/11c/laltesseroyale.mp3 www.luteshop.co.uk/11c/labellehomicide.mp3 I am so sad that we cannot get these strings anymore. Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Passamezzo Moderno
Hi Mike, I understand your frustration w/ which Moderno. I know it's frowned on but could you could put an mp3 up of it on the web? Sean On Apr 9, 2013, at 10:48 AM, mike murray wrote: Hello wise ones. Lutz Kirchhof's The Lute in Dance and Dream was at my local Twin Cities exurb library when I was in high school and arguably was one of the foundational exposures that led me to pursuing the lute. Back in 2002, I emailed Lutz asking him where I could find the tablature for track 4 on that disc, passamezzo Moderno by 'anonymous'. I've never heard back and trying to find it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. I thought I stumbled upon it once, but that piece only had superficial similarities. I probably could figure it out by ear, but if anyone has any leads, I would be ever grateful. I'd probably geek out at anything else in its manuscript or printed book if that's where it is. Many thanks, Mike -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Newsidler and plucking or not?
Arto, You see the long-and-two-shorts all over Spinacino, too. For example, in the Sidedero in the Odhecaton uses a dotted figure while Spinacino repeated uses it in the way you describe in Newsidler (we find the same figures more often dotted rhythms in the Capirola Sidedero, however). Interestingly, comparing the Tsat een meskin between the Odhecaton and the Segovia ms. Petrucci uses the dotted figure while the Segovia usually uses the long note and two shorts. Since both are mensural sources I'm not sure we can attribute it to being a lute phenomenon unless we consider Segovia a possible lute source. Sean On Feb 1, 2013, at 10:59 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Dear lutenists, if memory serves, we have been talking about one interesting question of interpreting German tabulature: when (especially) Hans Newsidler repeated a short note after longer one, did he really mean repeating the pluck, or did he thus just in this way express a note with a dot? Did he mean just a tie? An example (translated to French tabulature) (use monospace!): |\ |\\ |\ || | || | __a_a__a__c__d___ _|__| _|__bb__| __c__|__cc__| ... _|__| _|__| So, should or shouldn't the top string third a be plucked or not? I vote that you should not repeat the pluck! I played Hans' intabulation of Ludvig Senfl's famous Lied Elslein liebstes Elslein mein. I made two versions: First literally as it is written, second as I think it is meant to be played. The piece becomes much more vocal-like that way, and it also feels much more natural. Take a look (take a hear (can you say so in English?)): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pakfWwq8wokfeature=youtu.be http://vimeo.com/58727395 What do you vote? All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 6c guittar
Well, it's hard to say whether the train of this argument has run its course or whether it's all gone off the rails now. I still think some sort of ren. guitar would be possible in Dalza's Italy and have heard no evidence that it couldn't. We may disagree as to the instrument portrayed in the intarsia. Personally, I'm unconvinced it is a vihuela, or more to the point, unconvinced it is a six-course vihuela. I'm less moved by instruments described (or defined) significantly outside Dalza's dates and area. There is too much leeway in definitions, too many terms and too few descriptions of instruments used in a typical Dalza performance. I believe his (and G. Pacaloni's) are only two of very few publications --and may include the Castelfranco ms.-- actually written with working bands in mind and, as such, allowed a greater variety of possible instruments than those listed in titles and notes. And I doubt either cared about Tinctoris' definitions. A strummed C chord on it works fine for the formal Dalza duets (especially with a second lute) and there are other dances and intabulations where the melody and harmony sit rather nicely to my poor yank ears. I will refrain from intabulating motets and writing anything more complex than deRippe fantasies for it. (Could his have been written before coming to France? Does his Mantouan nature make them, by definition, Italian guitar fantasies, albeit published posthumously for a French public? and furthermore in a book containing the frottole-era, Scaramela?) I will continue to use it in an upcoming performance of frottole (replacing an A-lute with a second singer singing bass) as well as proper G and E lutes for other pieces. Instrumentation in some ways is like orthography: it is a poor imagination indeed that can think of only one way to spell a word. That said, I do appreciate the time and work by all showing the variety of sources and arguments pro- and con- as well as observations on the inconclusitivity of the evidence. I'm impressed with the going-to-the-matt certainty wherever it developed though such bruisings are hardly necessary in the paucity of evidence. I had hoped for more evidence pro- of course but I will continue to take the intarsia at its probable (for me) face value of a 4-c waisted instrument whatever its title. I worked with a builder a few years ago to design such a 4-c instrument based on the intarsia and we reckon the measurements and ratios will yield a pretty instrument. It will probably be the next instrument in my zoo when the time is right. Many thanks to all who weighed in. Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Back to the 4-cours guitar
Indeed. Morlaye takes his liberties re-serving the likes of Francesco, Borrono and Paladin(o). It may be name value only that got Albert's name attached to those 'guitar' pieces. I was plinking through the Vaccaro/deRipa last night and #20 is entirely built upon the the theme of Josquin's Adieu mes amours. What square does that put us on?? s On Jan 31, 2013, at 2:25 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Well - to keep the ball rolling here are a few observations. It's interesting that you mention the Ripa fantasias - but how do we know that they were written for the guitar in the first place? A lot of the 4-course music is arrangements of pre-existing pieces. One of the pieces in Barberiis is also found in Morlaye's Second livre. The repertoires of all these instruments are interchangeable. Some music from vihuela books is found in later lute sources. The music itself can be played on any instrument which has the appropriate number of courses tuned to the appropriate intervals. It wasn't necessarily composed for one instrument rather than another and it tells us nothing about the identity of the different instruments which were in use at the time. Back to square one. Monica - Original Message - From: Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 9:11 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 6c guittar Well, it's hard to say whether the train of this argument has run its course or whether it's all gone off the rails now. I still think some sort of ren. guitar would be possible in Dalza's Italy and have heard no evidence that it couldn't. We may disagree as to the instrument portrayed in the intarsia. Personally, I'm unconvinced it is a vihuela, or more to the point, unconvinced it is a six-course vihuela. I'm less moved by instruments described (or defined) significantly outside Dalza's dates and area. There is too much leeway in definitions, too many terms and too few descriptions of instruments used in a typical Dalza performance. I believe his (and G. Pacaloni's) are only two of very few publications --and may include the Castelfranco ms.-- actually written with working bands in mind and, as such, allowed a greater variety of possible instruments than those listed in titles and notes. And I doubt either cared about Tinctoris' definitions. A strummed C chord on it works fine for the formal Dalza duets (especially with a second lute) and there are other dances and intabulations where the melody and harmony sit rather nicely to my poor yank ears. I will refrain from intabulating motets and writing anything more complex than deRippe fantasies for it. (Could his have been written before coming to France? Does his Mantouan nature make them, by definition, Italian guitar fantasies, albeit published posthumously for a French public? and furthermore in a book containing the frottole-era, Scaramela?) I will continue to use it in an upcoming performance of frottole (replacing an A-lute with a second singer singing bass) as well as proper G and E lutes for other pieces. Instrumentation in some ways is like orthography: it is a poor imagination indeed that can think of only one way to spell a word. That said, I do appreciate the time and work by all showing the variety of sources and arguments pro- and con- as well as observations on the inconclusitivity of the evidence. I'm impressed with the going-to-the-matt certainty wherever it developed though such bruisings are hardly necessary in the paucity of evidence. I had hoped for more evidence pro- of course but I will continue to take the intarsia at its probable (for me) face value of a 4-c waisted instrument whatever its title. I worked with a builder a few years ago to design such a 4-c instrument based on the intarsia and we reckon the measurements and ratios will yield a pretty instrument. It will probably be the next instrument in my zoo when the time is right. Many thanks to all who weighed in. Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 6c guittar
B-b-but Tinctoris said Sean On Jan 29, 2013, at 12:40 PM, Rob MacKillop wrote: Now this will be piss me off right royally if you nutters start turning my video into an excuse for ranting about what an effing guitar is! Just listen to the damn thing, and keep your mouth shut. :-) Rob www.robmackillop.net On 29 Jan 2013, at 19:59, Pieter Van Tichelen pie...@vantichelen.name wrote: Hi Stuart, Yes, the terms for plucked instruments are confusing all the time. Even this day - if you say guitar, some people think of the electric, other of the jazz, folk or even other instruments... However, I believe you mixed up something in my argument. The English guit(t)ar I simply mentioned as an example of confusing names for instruments - which point you clearly got. However, I'm not linking that (English) guitar but the cittern-type by the name gittern to the medieval gittern. If you're really interested, I might dig up my original article about it - where I link it to the Praetorius section of the klein Englisch Zitterlein. Ward's book is a good starting point in any case, to trace it's first introduction to England in 1550 and later developments. Kind regards, Pieter ___ Van: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com Verzonden: dinsdag 29 januari 2013 20:35 Aan: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: 6c guittar On 29/01/2013 18:11, William Samson wrote: What a gorgeous sound! Now are you SURE it's a 'guittar'? Not a Gittariglia? Or a Kitherone? Or a Banjino Scotsese? Or a Mandolele Giorgio Formbyana? Or a Strattolino Hankus B. Marviniensis?. . . I've just left a compliment to Rob on youtube. So, now, to get back to arguing. I think Pieter was hinting at an argument that the 'English guitar' (dunno how Rob how got himself to actually write those words out!) is a descendant of the medieval gittern. He (Pieter) might have been suggesting that even as late as the 18th century, the terms guitar, guittar, gittern etc etc etc for people in Britain didn't simply, or only, or even most naturally, mean the figure-of-eight thing. (The insistence, today, of the double tt spelling of 'guittar' rather than 'guitar' to somehow show that the English guitar isn't really a guitar, would, I think have baffled people at the time of its popularity.) Today we think it is so odd that 18th century Brits called the English guitar (a sort of cittern) a common guitar, a lesser guitar, a guitar, guittar (and quite a few other names).At the time, though, they might not have thought it so odd because they didn't have the concept that the only possible thing an instrument called a guitar, guittar, gittern etc etc must be the figure-of-eight, 'Spanish' guitar. It's arbitrary that we have settled on one spelling (in English) - guitar, and one form, the figure-of-eight body type, from all the names in the past with which it stood on equal footing - guitern, gittern, guittar, gytron etc etc etc which might have meant at different times, lute-like things, cittern-like things and figure-of-eight thingies. So today, when we see the word 'guitar' we are apt to think the instrument 'must' be a figure-of-eight instrument (at the very least). But this can mislead us about the past. And this is what I understand R. Meucci to be saying about the Italian word, 'chitarra' (and variant spellings of it). Stuart Looking forward to hearing it in the flesh on Saturday at the Scottish Lute and Early Guitar Society meeting! Bill From: Rob MacKillop robmackil...@gmail.com To: Lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 29 January 2013, 17:37 Subject: [LUTE] 6c guittar Just to get us away from all the bickering... [1][1]http://youtu.be/N3YaFJxWCXk Rob -- References 1. [2]http://youtu.be/N3YaFJxWCXk To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://youtu.be/N3YaFJxWCXk 2. http://youtu.be/N3YaFJxWCXk 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Borrono on the little guitar
Dear Stuart and Valery, Thanks for the notes. The Diversi Autori is a great book for dances both for lute and source material for making 4-c adaptions as are the other Borrono books. Maybe cittern, too, if I played more than 2 or 3 chords (ok, how many do you need??). This one and a few others (the first suite + tochata) went into an LSA Quarterly a few years ago. I have P Boquet's book you mention but prefer to roll my own, so to speak. They get to evolve more. I've been meaning to get to Stephen's site and will soon when I have a big free evening to give it the attention it deserves. The van Eyck sounds like an interesting stepping stone between the renaissance pieces and the Playford source. Someday I'd like to get a few pluckers/strummers, ren guitars and lutes in the same room and see how much we can expand on the Borrono/Pacalono sound. Often the middle lute of a Pac trio fits rather nicely on the guitar. I've edited up most of the Castelfranco trios for the project. It's amazing after --seeing the Pacaloni books-- how free of errors they are! best wishes, Sean ps Luthval: that's a great Pescatore on your YT channel! pps Btw, that wasn't technically a renaissance guitar since it had a doubled top course ;^) but the cat should fit the definition. On Jan 25, 2013, at 12:57 AM, WALSH STUART wrote: On 25/01/2013 08:55, WALSH STUART wrote: Sounds good Sean. Valéry mentions the Pascale Boquet book and recently Stephen Arndt put up a website, Verse and Song, including his settings of Van Eyck for Renaissance guitar. He performs them and includes the tablature to many pieces - all arranged with appropriate harmony. http://www.verseandsong.com/song/renaissance-guitar/ Stuart On 25/01/2013 08:00, Valéry Sauvage wrote: Hello Sean and all, nice tune on the guitar. You can adapt a lot of Italian music for this instrument. Pascale Boquet (lute teacher of the academy of music in Tours and French Lute society president) made a book of tune for renaissance guitar (vol 18 of French Lute Society editions), including many adaptation of Italian songs (Chi passa, la traditora, Madonna mia fa) I recorded some on my YT channel (*). And she did too with the renaissance group Doulce Mémoire on many beautiful CD's (Viva Napoli for example). Ok there is no (few ??) original sources from this country for this instrument, but as they adapt song and dance (for lutes or other instruments...), we can do so too for the guitar. (I even adapt Pescatore che va cantando for the ukulele, same tuning as the renaissance guitar, so I could also play on it...) Val (*) My version of Chi passa, arr. By Pascale Boquet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACsd_9dXnfM -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de Sean Smith Envoyé : vendredi 25 janvier 2013 00:35 À : lute Objet : [LUTE] Borrono on the little guitar Emboldened by Stuart's 'not quite appropriately instrumental' video, here is a rendition of the Mazolo on a friend's renaissance guitar. Due to the tiny neck it gets a little fuzzy especially near the end. No, there is no historical precedent for this arrangement but Mu likes it. http://youtu.be/5ialFDn17DE Thanks to all in the Italian guitar discussion. Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 13th century Conductus played on gittern and psaltery
I liked it, too. Thanks Stuart. Sean Interesting YT: I played it after Joseph M. wrote his note (30 min after Stuart posted it) but when I got there it said there had been no views. Invisible eyes of the marketplace? On Jan 24, 2013, at 12:30 PM, WALSH STUART wrote: Sol Sub Nube Latuit. A liturgical piece for two voices, no doubt embedded in the fervent Christian rituals and faith... nothing to do with instrumental music Here imagined as played by an irreverent pair of instrumentalists, insofar as it is possible to be irreverent when wearing tights, pointy footwear and playing culpably fay instruments like psaltery and gittern. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BPI586YQt4 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
the instrumentarium of one working dance band: one fiddler, one wind player and a strummer/plucker --maybe more, maybe fewer. (Not entirely unrelatedly, I had a friend who played Lord Oxenford's March w/ me on two recorders (sop/alto) at once. It quickly became Ol' Oxy's Thump) The Borgias were Spanish. Excellent. Now we have a mechanism for the import of both the music (spagnolas) and the instrument. Of course we can't know if they were the first to import this waisted instrument or legitimise it in aristocratic circles. We assume the lute didn't drop from favor during the relative absence of publications for it between Dalza and the 1540's and I'm assuming the instrument that we see here didn't as well. It didn't figure highly enough in publications circles to make much impact even in the '40s but perhaps it retained enough of its Spanish connotation that Barbaris published what little he did in Milan's tab style. When the French Ren guitar eventually appeared on the scene it was mostly branles and other dance music (again with spanish hints such as the many Conte Claires and Roman-escas) with the most idiomatic being the branles and the least fitting being the intabulations despite the best arts of Morlaye and that Italian fellow, Alberto. All I'm trying to argue for is that it is a popular instrument that flew under the historical record's radar and as such, cannot be argued away by the lack of greater record. This is, I believe, a reference to it . The references are where we would expect them from those rare occasions when it rose to aristocratic notice but this rare image shows it to be in its more popular environment. best wishes, Sean If you go back to page one of the site and scroll down you will find a similar image of a fresco in the Borgia Apartments, the Vatican, Quadrivium, Music, by Bernadino Pinturicchio, dated 1493. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Sean Smith [3]lutesm...@mac.com; Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lutelist [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:07 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto Dear Monica, You could be right - but count the number of pegs (not pegholes). Perhaps a viola being used as a 4 course guitar Martyn --- On Tue, 22/1/13, Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto To: Sean Smith [8]lutesm...@mac.com Cc: Lutelist [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 22 January, 2013, 8:56 A nice picture - but it is a vihuela or viola not a 4-course guitar. Monica - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [1]lutesm...@mac.com To: lute [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 10:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto There does seem to be some iconography from Italian sources. I realize this page [3]http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-3.html is light on sources but I believe the matching guitar-shaped instrument and violin intarsia is from the Gonzaga estate c.1507. The intarsia is about 2/3 down the page just under the Girolamo Dai Libri detail. It is difficult to count the pegs but the strings do appear doubled. There are other small vihuela-like plucked instruments on the page of Italian origin, too. Sean On Jan 21, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Interesting list. Most of them are late and do the sources actually say that the pieces are for guitar? In most cases it may just be that the tablature is 4 lines and the tuning matches. Tyler says of the first one that the pieces were probably copied in 1570s - but how does he know that? I have actually seen the manuscript in the Royal Academy of Music - in fact I have a copy of it. It is 17th century rather than 16th and it belonged to Robert Spencer. The 4-course music in Concerto Vago is for the chitarrino a quatro corde alla napolitana which may be a small lute or mandora. And as for Boetischer - well he is very unreliable - deliberately misrepresented things because he was a Nazi and anti-semitic. I have just been reading an article about Neusidler and he disparaged him for that reason. Best
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
There does seem to be some iconography from Italian sources. I realize this
page
http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-3.html
is light on sources but I believe the matching guitar-shaped instrument and
violin intarsia is from the Gonzaga estate c.1507.
The intarsia is about 2/3 down the page just under the Girolamo Dai Libri
detail. It is difficult to count the pegs but the strings do appear doubled.
There are other small vihuela-like plucked instruments on the page of Italian
origin, too.
Sean
On Jan 21, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
Interesting list. Most of them are late and do the sources actually say that
the pieces are for guitar? In most cases it may just be that the tablature is
4 lines and the tuning matches.
Tyler says of the first one that the pieces were probably copied in 1570s - but
how does he know that?
I have actually seen the manuscript in the Royal Academy of Music - in fact
I have a copy of it. It is 17th century rather than 16th and it belonged to
Robert Spencer.
The 4-course music in Concerto Vago
is for the chitarrino a quatro corde alla
napolitana which may be a small lute or mandora.
And as for Boetischer - well he is very unreliable - deliberately
misrepresented things because he was a Nazi and anti-semitic. I have just
been reading an article about Neusidler and he disparaged him for that reason.
Best
Monica
- Original Message - From: Gary R. Boye boy...@appstate.edu
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Lutelist
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
Dear Monica,
I have a few more sources listed for 4-course guitar with at least Italian
tablature, although possibly not all Italian:
B-Bc MS LIt. XY no. 24135 [1570-1580 (tablature section)]
(Italy?) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. 31]
4-course guitar in Italian tablature
GB-Lam Ms. 645 [1625 and 1650]
Italian manuscript in tablature for 4-course chitarra (ca.1625) and
single line tablature (?for violin) (Italy) [not in RISM; see TYLER p.
83]
4-course guitar in Italian tablature
Thomassini 1645
Thomassini, Filippo, publisher. Conserto vago di balletti, volte,
corrente, et gagliarde, con la loro canzone alla franzese nuovamente posti
in luce per sonare con liuto, tiorba, et *chitarrino a quatro corde alla
napolitana* insieme, o soli ad arbitrio, e diletto de' virtuosi, et nobili
professori, o studiosi dei questo instromento (Rome, [Italy]: Filippo
Thomassini)
8-course lute in Italian tablature
11-course theorbo in Italian tablature
4-course guitar in Italian tablature
I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 28 [1667-1700]
[RISM B/VII p. 107]
4-course guitar in Italian tablature
I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 29 [1667-1700]
[RISM B/VII p. 108]
4-course guitar in Italian tablature
***
These last two depend on Boetticher for the instrumentation--and I fully
realize how dangerous that is! I assume he merely counted the number of
courses required in the tablature, but somehow he was unable to do even
that in other circumstances. And perhaps the others are not the real 4c
guitar?
Gary
On 1/21/2013 8:54 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
Well - obviously the 4-course guitar was played in Spain although the
extent to which it was played in the contrapuntal manner suggested by
the few surviving pieces in Mudarra and Fuenllana is unknown.
The point which Meucci makes about Barberiis is that it is a bit odd
that a printed collection of lute music should include just four pieces
for an instrument of a different type. There are references to the
chitarra which clearly imply (if that's not a contradiction) that it
was a small lute.
The safest thing to say is that there is no surviving Italian repertoire
for the 4-course guitar.
Monica
- Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:28 AM
Subject: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
Dear Monica,
You write 'There('s) no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was
played in Italy' and, of course, you're quite right.
But it was played in Spain, then a major influence in all Hapsburg
lands and in some Italian states as well as Naples. So I don't see it
being played in the leading maritime centre of Venice as particularly
far-fetched. And I'm referring to the figure of eight shaped
instrument
- I think we're in danger of going a bit too far down the invisible
path of supposing a mandora shaped guitar was the default.
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
To: Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
Here's a better image of those instruments in the intarsia from the Palazzo
Ducale in Mantua. Any guesses as to what the left stringed instrument is? A
single strung vihuela de mano?
Could that be an ocarina below the double flute??
http://www.wga.hu/art/m/mola_ap/musical2.jpg
Sean
On Jan 21, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
Interesting list. Most of them are late and do the sources actually say that
the pieces are for guitar? In most cases it may just be that the tablature is
4 lines and the tuning matches.
Tyler says of the first one that the pieces were probably copied in 1570s - but
how does he know that?
I have actually seen the manuscript in the Royal Academy of Music - in fact
I have a copy of it. It is 17th century rather than 16th and it belonged to
Robert Spencer.
The 4-course music in Concerto Vago
is for the chitarrino a quatro corde alla
napolitana which may be a small lute or mandora.
And as for Boetischer - well he is very unreliable - deliberately
misrepresented things because he was a Nazi and anti-semitic. I have just
been reading an article about Neusidler and he disparaged him for that reason.
Best
Monica
- Original Message - From: Gary R. Boye boy...@appstate.edu
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Lutelist
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
Dear Monica,
I have a few more sources listed for 4-course guitar with at least Italian
tablature, although possibly not all Italian:
B-Bc MS LIt. XY no. 24135 [1570-1580 (tablature section)]
(Italy?) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. 31]
4-course guitar in Italian tablature
GB-Lam Ms. 645 [1625 and 1650]
Italian manuscript in tablature for 4-course chitarra (ca.1625) and
single line tablature (?for violin) (Italy) [not in RISM; see TYLER p.
83]
4-course guitar in Italian tablature
Thomassini 1645
Thomassini, Filippo, publisher. Conserto vago di balletti, volte,
corrente, et gagliarde, con la loro canzone alla franzese nuovamente posti
in luce per sonare con liuto, tiorba, et *chitarrino a quatro corde alla
napolitana* insieme, o soli ad arbitrio, e diletto de' virtuosi, et nobili
professori, o studiosi dei questo instromento (Rome, [Italy]: Filippo
Thomassini)
8-course lute in Italian tablature
11-course theorbo in Italian tablature
4-course guitar in Italian tablature
I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 28 [1667-1700]
[RISM B/VII p. 107]
4-course guitar in Italian tablature
I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 29 [1667-1700]
[RISM B/VII p. 108]
4-course guitar in Italian tablature
***
These last two depend on Boetticher for the instrumentation--and I fully
realize how dangerous that is! I assume he merely counted the number of
courses required in the tablature, but somehow he was unable to do even
that in other circumstances. And perhaps the others are not the real 4c
guitar?
Gary
On 1/21/2013 8:54 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
Well - obviously the 4-course guitar was played in Spain although the
extent to which it was played in the contrapuntal manner suggested by
the few surviving pieces in Mudarra and Fuenllana is unknown.
The point which Meucci makes about Barberiis is that it is a bit odd
that a printed collection of lute music should include just four pieces
for an instrument of a different type. There are references to the
chitarra which clearly imply (if that's not a contradiction) that it
was a small lute.
The safest thing to say is that there is no surviving Italian repertoire
for the 4-course guitar.
Monica
- Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:28 AM
Subject: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
Dear Monica,
You write 'There('s) no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was
played in Italy' and, of course, you're quite right.
But it was played in Spain, then a major influence in all Hapsburg
lands and in some Italian states as well as Naples. So I don't see it
being played in the leading maritime centre of Venice as particularly
far-fetched. And I'm referring to the figure of eight shaped
instrument
- I think we're in danger of going a bit too far down the invisible
path of supposing a mandora shaped guitar was the default.
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
To: Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 10:38
I am afraid the pieces in Barberiis are probably not for the 4-course
guitar
but - as Stuart has kindly pointed out with the appropriate
reference -
for
a small 4
[LUTE] Re: 6c stringing?
Bill, I only have 6c lutes (D, E, G and d) and a renaissance guitar and they are all strung w/ octaves on 4th through 6th courses. The case could be made that the descant would comfortably survive unisons on the 4th but I like the consistancy to my ear of the same architecture on all of them. I like that I have nearly the same gauge strings on all the courses especially when ordering strings. I play from c15oo through to c1600 English and rationalize that this is more than enough repertory for my lifetime. That said, I realize that my stable of lutes isn't quite acceptable for the guilty pleasures of accompanying English lutesong (fudging a few 7th course notes where nec, and consciously downplaying the 4th 8ve twang; I'm just too parsimonious of time and string to swap em out) but I do it anyway when the opportunity comes and then try to introduce my singer to earlier voice-lute repertory --agenda? moi? Bwahahaha. Outside the English rep, I consider most of the repertory lute-interchangable and playing pieces on different sizes and timbres helps in many subtle ways such as teaching little fingers to play and teaching little eardrums to listen. I've found that if one makes the 4th c 8ve decision it's absolutely necessary to control how the fingers strike the string in runs. I realized a long time ago that if I couldn't control that then the octave system falls apart. Later, I found I could control the amount of twang in thumbstrikes, too. Using the same gauge as the first course automatically renders it a little less bright and a gut string lasts a long time. (Incidentally, it supports a pet theory that all 6 courses can be strung with only 3 string gauges. A few years ago a friend experimented in making roped basses and found that 2 or 3 treble-side strings roped could make quite acceptable bass strings. The E lute was comfortably strung for a long time that way.) Intonation-wise, a 4th fundamental can last a long time although its initial brightness may wane and a solid gut is less bright than the roped. Having an 8ve retains the brightness I hear on the higher courses and helps the transition from the bass to the treble. Generally I don't think of the polyphonic use of the octave so much as the overall course color but it is there when I want it for that. 6th, 5th: Roped gut fundamental, gut 8ve. 4th: Roped or solid fundamental, gut or nylgut 8ve. 3rd: Gut. 2nd: Gut or new nylgut. 1st: New nylgut usually and gut for special occasions. Probably more than you were asking for but simply why I came to my choices. Sean On Jan 20, 2013, at 7:21 AM, William Samson wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, I believe that 6c lutes are often strung with octaves on the 6th, 5th and 4th courses. Would you use that stringing for all parts of the lute repertoire that needs only six courses, or would other arrangements be appropriate for parts of the repertoire? I'm particularly fond of the 6c English music that is found in many mid-late 16th century sources. Playing with an octave on the 4th sounds intrusive to my ear, but maybe I need to train my ear to accept it? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
Thanks for the reminder, Arthur. I knew about these but had forgotten them (too). It is more support that the little guitar was being played and even written for. Sean On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: The link is at the very bttom. - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:21 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto Monica surely has simply forgotten about these Italian guitar pieces. Just four pieces in a century is virtually the same as saying there are no pieces.g: See [1]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 Sigs, Gg24v-Hh1v (last two pages)snip References 1. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 6c stringing?
On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:49 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: One or more of the great early German pedagogs (H.Neusidler, Gerle, Judenkoenig) was/were absolutely explicit on this: 1st course gauge for 4th course 8ve, 2nd for 5th, and 3rd for 6th. On my early style 6 course lute this works just fine. With the correct diameter/material/tension gut fundamentals the balance, volume and feel are perfect. This stringing arrangement does not sound harmonious homogenous unless I use all gut, with the sometimes grudging exception of a newnylgut or nylon treble. (But not the 4th course 8ve!) I concur, Dr Winheld. I would love to keep them all in gut but reaching for the instrument I use least or most and finding another broken or barely limping along string compels me to fall into the plastic alternative. The last major gut purchase nearly started divorce proceedings. Sean On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:49 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: The use of 8ves on courses 4 - 6 from late 15th to at least mid-16th cent. on lutes and Italian vihuelas/violas is widely confirmed by enough authoritative sources. One or more of the great early German pedagogs (H.Neusidler, Gerle, Judenkoenig) was/were absolutely explicit on this: 1st course gauge for 4th course 8ve, 2nd for 5th, and 3rd for 6th. On my early style 6 course lute this works just fine. With the correct diameter/material/tension gut fundamentals the balance, volume and feel are perfect. This stringing arrangement does not sound harmonious homogenous unless I use all gut, with the sometimes grudging exception of a newnylgut or nylon treble. (But not the 4th course 8ve!) I believe Adrien LeRoy's method was translated into English published in the 1560's- he too called for 8ves. Ironically, I use my 8ve strung 6 course lute for John Johnson more easily than for some of the polyphony composed a generation earlier! However, the aggressive 4th course 8ve. can be a problem for my ears- I have had trouble reconciling it with the counterpoint of Francesco, Marco, Alberto, and others; and often prefer to play those specific types of polyphony on slightly anachronistic instruments- my 8 course (8ves starting at 6) or Spanish style (Chambure copy) vihuela, 8ves starting at 5. The Spanish vihuela has been a bone of contention. It is now accepted by some of us, based on the research of Mimmo Peruffo and others, that the Spanish vihuela may also have been strung with 8ves. and perhaps Pisador (and/or Fabritio Dentice) may be the one who got the unison thing rolling with just a 4th course unison. Sounds reasonable to my own - but corrupted by 20/21st century guitar and other influenced ears. Again on the other hand (running out of hands here) 3 part frottole, superius, tenor, and bassus, do sound empty (sans altus) unless I play them on the all-8ve'd 6 course lute. Same for most of the early ! German intabs as well- the 4th 5th course 8ves fill the sense of harmony very nicely. Because of Dowland, I tried to maintain 6 course unisons on some of my instruments for years- sometimes it worked- but in the end the net gain was was outweighed by the net losses explained in this thread by other posters. I now use a 6 course unison only on my d-minor 13 course Baroque lute- a longer string length, and that course is A, a whole tone higher. But there is zero historical precedent for that, I just can't stand some of those 8ves in Weiss when the parts are fighting each other in that range. Dan On 1/20/2013 7:21 AM, William Samson wrote: Dear Collective Wisdom, I believe that 6c lutes are often strung with octaves on the 6th, 5th and 4th courses. Would you use that stringing for all parts of the lute repertoire that needs only six courses, or would other arrangements be appropriate for parts of the repertoire? I'm particularly fond of the 6c English music that is found in many mid-late 16th century sources. Playing with an octave on the 4th sounds intrusive to my ear, but maybe I need to train my ear to accept it? Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Calata de Strombotti
Dear folks, In Dalza on 44v there's a Calata de strombotti. Could anyone tell me which strombotti this is? I'm afraid I don't have HMBrown's Instrumental Music before 1600 which would probably tell me. My appreciation in advance, Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Calata de Strombotti
Thanks, Monica. You've saved me search through HMB at any rate. I suspect it's one of the strombotti/ frottole somewhere in the Tromboncino intabulations as are Poi che'l ciel and Poi che volse but he doesn't do us the favor of naming it. It's certainly set up like a frottole w/ its two sections and light approach. While there are just _so_ many it is fun to search through them. Btw, I've been setting some for lute and/or ren. guitar and they can fit very nicely. It's a shame we don't have any extant guitar repertory from the time so I've been trying to build one. Sean On Jan 19, 2013, at 9:39 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Well - Brown doesn't seem to say anything about it but my Harvard Dictionary of Music describes the Strambotto thus- A verse form popular among Italian improvisers in the 15th century and taken over into the repertory of the frottola. It consists of a single stanza of eight hendecasyllabic lines etc.Musical settings often have only two phrases each repeated four times in alternationa separate phrase for the final couplet may be included... Perhaps Dalza's Calata is in the form of a strambotto...The Calata is an early 16th century dance form. Hope that information is of some use. Monica - Original Message - From: Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 5:13 PM Subject: [LUTE] Calata de Strombotti Dear folks, In Dalza on 44v there's a Calata de strombotti. Could anyone tell me which strombotti this is? I'm afraid I don't have HMBrown's Instrumental Music before 1600 which would probably tell me. My appreciation in advance, Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Calata de Strombotti
That's very intriguing to hear, Hector. The Dalza book is nothing but catchy, easily digested melodies --again, in a good way. The strambotti, as you describe them, perhaps may have influenced the Italian song away from the Burgundian yoke that made Spinacino so serious (lovely as they are). It's very fortunate that Petrucci published exactly that set of lute books (including the frottole). [Reminds me of the 70's: Prog rock giving way to New Wave] Dalza doesn't seem to have any problem at all with parallel 5ths, 4ths and octaves either or inversions either and that's why, when you start to disregard those 'laws' the guitar starts to work very nicely. I could easily imagine a lute dance band of multiple lutes of different sizes (playing the alla Ferrarese or alla Venetiana) with a guitar or two strengthening the inner harmonies and rhythm. On the dance floor, what are people really paying attention to? The scordatura of two lower courses in the one Ferrarese suite is very interesting, too. He sets it in a group where there are already similar pieces --though shorter-- in again Bb (w/out scordatura) and C and F but, to my eye, it's the template from which the others are taken. If we think of different lute sizes for a trio playing to a common tonic we could simply use Pacalono's lute trio. Ditto, the Venetiana tunings where we get the additional tonics of G and D and here you can build two different Pacalono trios. Here, the one suite in Bb the Piva is very difficult [for none-O'dette humanoids] to play at the speed of the other Pivas with its constant 6-course chords. If you take the chords out and give them to, say, a guitar it gets very easy very quickly. Could these be shorthand duets? The pieces, unfortunately want considerable editing but it would have been far easier for them having had the dance forms well defined in front of them, unlike us. I'm certain there is much more than meets the eye to Dalza, both in his dance forms and his origins. Is he really Italian? All the dances are grouped together except the Caldibi Castiglian(o)which is given the prominant position of very first piece. Could this be a hint to his origin? His given name is Joanambrozio. Is there a place name of Alza in the sense of d'Alza? The Calata on 46r is much like a Romanesca and isn't that dissimilar to Valderrabano's in style --another Spanish connection? And of course, all those Calatas ala spagnolas. Back to Fronimo... Sean On Jan 19, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Hector wrote: There are Calatas in the Thibault MS (BN, Paris, Res. Vmd. Ms. 27) and I believe they are mentioned in 15th c. writings (cannot remember where). The calata de strabotti is probably based on a popular melody (a strambotto). Strabotti are very simple and archaic... in a good way. They are full of parallel fifths and other 'archaisms', and some have great melodies. I believe the texts that survive (I think it is 8 lines per strambotto) are just a theme from which many more verses were improvised. They are very much connected to the oral tradition. Best, Hector On 19 Jan 2013, at 22:22, Monica Hall wrote: Yes - there is no Italian repertoire for the renaissance guitar at all really. It would be nice to have one - so keep building. Another interesting thing is that as far as I have been able to discover there are no other calatas except Dalza's in the 16th century - does anyone know of any? - but the calata re-surfaces in some early 17th century Italian guitar books - notably those of Montesardo and Costanzo. Monica - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [1]lutesm...@mac.com To: lute [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:08 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de Strombotti Thanks, Monica. You've saved me search through HMB at any rate. I suspect it's one of the strombotti/ frottole somewhere in the Tromboncino intabulations as are Poi che'l ciel and Poi che volse but he doesn't do us the favor of naming it. It's certainly set up like a frottole w/ its two sections and light approach. While there are just _so_ many it is fun to search through them. Btw, I've been setting some for lute and/or ren. guitar and they can fit very nicely. It's a shame we don't have any extant guitar repertory from the time so I've been trying to build one. Sean On Jan 19, 2013, at 9:39 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Well - Brown doesn't seem to say anything about it but my Harvard Dictionary of Music describes the Strambotto thus- A verse form popular among Italian improvisers in the 15th century and taken over into the repertory of the frottola. It consists of a single stanza of eight
[LUTE] Re: Hortus musarum
Thank you for this, Rainer! Please note, this includes the Horti Musarum Secunda Pars... 1553. A collection of lutesongs on (mostly) French chansons which serves not only as a good source of voice and lute duos but as a template for creating more from most any song of the period. It also includes motets by Josquin and Clemens non Papa set for voice and lute. Sean On Nov 20, 2012, at 11:39 AM, Rainer wrote: http://imslp.org/wiki/Hortus_Musarum_%28Phal%C3%A8se,_Pierre%29 Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 8-ch lute strings spacing
My medium hands love my fat necks. I have an E lute made from an old vandervogel guitar and Mel was constrained by the join to keep the neck join pretty thick. He offered to take it down later if it got to be a bear but I like it. Probably not optimal for most but it works just fine for me. My one older butterknife neck 8-c is the hardest to switch to. Sean On Nov 14, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Edward Mast wrote: String spacing is indeed most important. But I rarely (never?) see mentioned thickness of the neck. For a couple of years I played an 8 course lute with a rather thin neck, which I assumed to be normal. Then I got an 8 course with a thicker neck and found (I do have large hands) that barred chords that had been difficult on the thinner neck were considerably easier on the thicker neck. I quickly got rid of the thinner neck instrument. Perhaps something else to consider when buying a lute . . . Ned On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Luca Manassero wrote: Dear list, five years ago at the Neuburg (Bavaria) Summer Academy I happened to try an 8 course lute built for a friend of mine by Martin Shepherd: the strings spacing fitted so perfectly that later on I e-mailed Martin to have his strings spacing. I still use it on all my Renaissance instruments. In any case all lutemakers I approached over the last seven years ALWAYS asked me my strings spacing requirements: they NEVER simply used their without asking first. Last but not least, I have played a few exact copies of museum instruments: in all cases an extremely narrow strings spacing made them almost unplayable (to me). Having big hands I don't see why I should play on a very narrow, mandolin-like neck. What if the original instrument (aka Gerle...) was originally built for a 10 years old little girl? Luca David Tayler on 14/11/12 18.29 wrote: It depends on the player, the technique and the size of the hands, the width of the fingers, etc., but in the critical spacing of the first three courses I would not go below 5mm center to enter between pairs and below 11.5 between the chanterelle and the next string over, if the top string is single. There is a cross point at the plucking point that is the real figure, that is, the width where the string plucked. As for the other courses, it also depends on the string material. For an early style lute, you can also use a close parallel spacing, but unless the maker knows how to do it, I would not try it. The reach of the hand is important in an eight course instrument, but that depends on the hand. So at eight courses, you may have to compress the spacing slightly if reach is an issue. If they live in California, I can take a look, but otherwise you may have to rely on a generic pattern, or borrow a few instruments to see if they fit. It's like buying shoes. You can ask what shoe size you need, but you still have to wear them. Ninety percent of lutes have the wrong spacing, so it is worth getting it right when it is built. dt --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Jerzy Zak [1]jurek...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jerzy Zak [2]jurek...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] 8-ch lute strings spacing To: lute mailing list list [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, November 4, 2012, 5:06 PM Dear Lutelist, A student of mine is expacting a new 8-ch lute. The maker has little experience with an instrument of such number of courses. So we all need some advice from you. We need a typical spacing on both sides of strings, aEUR|if there is such typical spacing, of course. Anyway, at least a distance between the outer strings would be of help, if not all measurements. Thanks in advance! Jerzy Z --- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. mailto:jurek...@gmail.com 2. mailto:jurek...@gmail.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Buying a real lute
I am heading away from guitar, and moving to lute exclusively. Another soul! Bwahahaha! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Waiting out Sandy
Good luck, Leonard. If the winds are playing too loud that means you won't have to tune as often. On Oct 28, 2012, at 5:42 PM, Leonard Williams wrote: Here in Lancaster County, PA, you will find no bread or milk left on the supermarket shelves. Or bottled water, for that matter. That's how everybody here deals with the hint of a storm. Almost everybody: I've got in a good supply of strings, music, beer and wine. I hope the roof is on tight! Regards, Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tab to grand staff in Fronimo
Thanks to the kind souls who set me on the path to victory. I saved it to .midi (don't forget the key signature!) and then opened it in the free Finale Notepad. There might be better programs out there but for now I'm a happy camper. Sean On Oct 1, 2012, at 6:48 PM, Sean Smith wrote: I'd like to translate some lute duets into grand staff for a harpist but I'm a little intimidated by the Fronimo process (that's what I have and I can't go buying something new at this point). I tried the simple Translate-to-Mensural --Grandstaff but it doesn't look musician-friendly and I don't know how to take it to the next level. Has anyone done this and could they help me off-line (if nec)? Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Tab to grand staff in Fronimo
I'd like to translate some lute duets into grand staff for a harpist but I'm a little intimidated by the Fronimo process (that's what I have and I can't go buying something new at this point). I tried the simple Translate-to-Mensural --Grandstaff but it doesn't look musician-friendly and I don't know how to take it to the next level. Has anyone done this and could they help me off-line (if nec)? Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Frets fall, leaves fly. On Sep 26, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: Warm case holds pegbox, Wooden frets are falling off- Autumn is in the air. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best Body Frets?
Fret knot. On Sep 26, 2012, at 4:48 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: .and I blew the syllable count on the last line. Hot seppuku for breakfast tomorrow. On 9/26/2012 4:22 PM, Sean Smith wrote: Frets fall, leaves fly. On Sep 26, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: Warm case holds pegbox, Wooden frets are falling off- Autumn is in the air. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
I had always assumed it was to play better in groups whether instrumentalists, singers or others just standing around. Less, jabbingly, so to speak. By 1500 tradition cemented the idea in the common mind that that was 'how a lute's shaped' perhaps in keeping with its history of the oud. It also keeps the pegs at a common distance from the player and does not increase the depth of the instrument --unlike the thinner bodied vihuela/viola/fiddle family. So it does keep the shape compact. So maybe it was easier to construct a box before custom cases. When you set it down on its back it keeps the strings parallel (pre-7c instruments of course) which may have added to an aesthetic argument. This also means that when you hang it on a wall, the strings don't collect dust, well, the playing surfaces, anyway. Ok, I'm wandering. If the reason isn't physics (and we've seen that straight-out peg boxes could have worked but were not chosen in the 15th and most of the 16th centuries), trying to unravel the social and aesthetic reasons could be complex --a bit of one and two bits of another, as it were. my cent and a half, Sean On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:00 AM, Stephen Stubbs wrote: I was embarrassed when I realized I didn't know the historical reason to this question put forward on another email list: Never did find out why the lute's neck takes that funny turn. Gotta Google it. Why does the peg box take that downward turn? The Other Stephen Stubbs Champaign, Illinois USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the historical reason for the bent down peg box?
Keeping the bass string in its groove sounds good to me, Alan. I have a ren guitar w/ an issue like that sometimes. On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Alan Hoyle wrote: My guess was that, in the early days of the lute, string tensions were low, particularly in the case of bass strings; by bending them over the angle of the neck/pegbox join they would be far less likely to slip out of the nut groove. I also heard the assertion that it increased the volume of the strings. I do not know if either suggestion is true, either historically of scientifically... Alan On 2 September 2012 17:09, Sean Smith [1]lutesm...@mac.com wrote: I had always assumed it was to play better in groups whether instrumentalists, singers or others just standing around. Less, jabbingly, so to speak. By 1500 tradition cemented the idea in the common mind that that was 'how a lute's shaped' perhaps in keeping with its history of the oud. It also keeps the pegs at a common distance from the player and does not increase the depth of the instrument --unlike the thinner bodied vihuela/viola/fiddle family. So it does keep the shape compact. So maybe it was easier to construct a box before custom cases. When you set it down on its back it keeps the strings parallel (pre-7c instruments of course) which may have added to an aesthetic argument. This also means that when you hang it on a wall, the strings don't collect dust, well, the playing surfaces, anyway. Ok, I'm wandering. If the reason isn't physics (and we've seen that straight-out peg boxes could have worked but were not chosen in the 15th and most of the 16th centuries), trying to unravel the social and aesthetic reasons could be complex --a bit of one and two bits of another, as it were. my cent and a half, Sean On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:00 AM, Stephen Stubbs wrote: I was embarrassed when I realized I didn't know the historical reason to this question put forward on another email list: Never did find out why the lute's neck takes that funny turn. Gotta Google it. Why does the peg box take that downward turn? The Other Stephen Stubbs Champaign, Illinois USA -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute strings advice
Hi Stuart, I know how you and others feel that gut is too expensive but I feel I ought to put my experience out there. 10 years ago I bit the bullet and bought 5th and 6th course fundamentals of roped gut. They came in a length that if not cut and the remainder wrapped around the peg box (JHerringman-style at the time) I would get 2 working lengths from them. At this point I still haven't gone to the 2nd length. They sound great, they're in tune on the 7th fret and I never get that WAAoaaw overlong classic guitar sound that remains on the stage long after the guts have retired to the pub. The 6th was somewhere between $25 and $30 and the 5th was about $20. I think the prices are still close to that and for 10 years (plus) I have appreciated the investment over and over. The octaves, otoh, come and go. Granted I play 6-c but from what I saw on Ed Martin's 7c, the filament +gut for diapasons should fill out the 7th and 8th courses (and beyond) just fine. So forgive me for the age-old whining about the gut basses. I tend to save money but putting modern on the top and sometimes 2nd courses and 4th 8ve where the cost would come up again and again. (And this is where, for my porpoises, the new nylgut shines best) If I have an important performance I swap out the trebles and can go back to the same nylguts later. best wishes, Sean On Jun 19, 2012, at 1:02 PM, WALSH STUART wrote: I haven't changed the strings on my lute in a long time and I need to replace them. I can't remember the details of the ones I have on now. Gut is too expensive but any advice for anything else would be very welcome. Typical G lute, A440, string length 60cms. Thanks Stuart -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: extreme theorbo case
John, As an initial on a page can set the tone for that page for a long time, I fear for the offense taken. Please accept my apologies as no such meaning was intended. I'm sure the thumb will be fine. s On Jun 19, 2012, at 7:06 PM, John Lenti wrote: Sean, I'm not up on the listserv abbreviations, so I initially thought you were calling me a jerk, but in Norwegian or something. Sven said to Ole, ya know, wit yer t'um flappin on da outside a' yer hand on dat renaissance lute ya got dere, ya look like a Iirc. Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:07:35 -0700 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: lutesm...@mac.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: extreme theorbo case Hi ho John, Iirc, he was at the same LSA event as when I met you wa-a-ay back when, earlier this century. (It's impossible to keep DS away from Cleveland.) You probably didn't notice him running and hiding behind doors and furniture whenever you walked by like we did. Fun times those seminars. Sean ;^) On Jun 18, 2012, at 5:33 PM, John Lenti wrote: I like the idea of the case-case, and I may get one for my baroque lute, but I'm thinking more particularly of the ones you just stick a theorbo in and go. Also, when do I get to meet you, Danny? We know way too many of the same people, like I ran into this lawyer on the train from DC to Baltimore whose husband is a musicologist/lutenist and she's on the board of Les Delices, and there you were, being brought up in conversation, and we play too many of the same instruments and I'm subscribed to your Youtube channel and feel like we're related. Please pardon my excessive familiarity in advance. I may just rush up and hug you. John Subject: Re: [LUTE] extreme theorbo case From: kidneykut...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 20:26:39 -0400 CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu To: johnle...@hotmail.com I had one made for my 13 course lute. The Kingham case goes inside the extreme case. I used it for checked luggage when I flew to Vancouver and back and the lute was fine. Danny On Jun 18, 2012, at 8:23 PM, John Lenti wrote: Dear all, Has anybody got one of these? http://www.casextreme.com/prod_details.php?pid' If so, is it any good? Certainly cheaper than the next few options I can think of, like my IKA case which has begun to show some significant wear including some rather worrying stress fractures (just dropped off at the surfboard shop for repair), and my Kingham cases, which have been reduced to little theorbo-case molecules. All best, John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] Re: extreme theorbo case
Hi ho John, Iirc, he was at the same LSA event as when I met you wa-a-ay back when, earlier this century. (It's impossible to keep DS away from Cleveland.) You probably didn't notice him running and hiding behind doors and furniture whenever you walked by like we did. Fun times those seminars. Sean ;^) On Jun 18, 2012, at 5:33 PM, John Lenti wrote: I like the idea of the case-case, and I may get one for my baroque lute, but I'm thinking more particularly of the ones you just stick a theorbo in and go. Also, when do I get to meet you, Danny? We know way too many of the same people, like I ran into this lawyer on the train from DC to Baltimore whose husband is a musicologist/lutenist and she's on the board of Les Delices, and there you were, being brought up in conversation, and we play too many of the same instruments and I'm subscribed to your Youtube channel and feel like we're related. Please pardon my excessive familiarity in advance. I may just rush up and hug you. John Subject: Re: [LUTE] extreme theorbo case From: kidneykut...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 20:26:39 -0400 CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu To: johnle...@hotmail.com I had one made for my 13 course lute. The Kingham case goes inside the extreme case. I used it for checked luggage when I flew to Vancouver and back and the lute was fine. Danny On Jun 18, 2012, at 8:23 PM, John Lenti wrote: Dear all, Has anybody got one of these? http://www.casextreme.com/prod_details.php?pid' If so, is it any good? Certainly cheaper than the next few options I can think of, like my IKA case which has begun to show some significant wear including some rather worrying stress fractures (just dropped off at the surfboard shop for repair), and my Kingham cases, which have been reduced to little theorbo-case molecules. All best, John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: greetings with saman and ballard
What Dan said: Great playing and I love that sound you get out of the instrument! Sean On Jun 5, 2012, at 8:03 AM, Daniel Winheld wrote: Very nice! Relaxed, elegant phrasing- good tone, keep up the good work, let's hear more. Tell us about the lute, nice shape, size sound. Dan On Jun 5, 2012, at 7:29 AM, MAGDALENA TOMSINSKA wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqk0nuBEM-I -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Toccata before 1611?
There are three dance suites in the Itabolatura di Diversi Autori 1536 that are each followed by a short Tochata. The first two state: Tochata nel fine del Ballo and the third, Tochata Del Divino Franc. Da Milano. The first two could as easily be by P.P.Borono as the dances are mostly attributed to him (or they may be anon.) but we can't be certain. Sean Dear lutenists, while trying to activate my old vieil accord understanding, I have played some Toccate by 10-courser. I started with Piccinini 1639, then M. Galilei 1620, and today Kapsberger 1611: Kapsberger: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek_rdlOmfE8feature=youtu.be [2]http://vimeo.com/41791916 Galilei: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YvpwODvOOUfeature=youtu.be [4]http://vimeo.com/41619395 Piccinini: [5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjD0k7_v9Hgfeature=youtu.be [6]http://vimeo.com/41573141 So I am going backwards in time. I think I have seen some lute Toccata compositions also before 1611, but I cannot remember where. So my question and suggestion: could we create a list early lute Toccatas? All the best, Arto -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek_rdlOmfE8feature=youtu.be 2. http://vimeo.com/41791916 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YvpwODvOOUfeature=youtu.be 4. http://vimeo.com/41619395 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjD0k7_v9Hgfeature=youtu.be 6. http://vimeo.com/41573141 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Chanterelle choice?
Dear trj, My first choice is always real gut but there are mitigating factors. Plan B, which includes most of my waking life and lutes, settles on the New Nylgut. I do find it much nicer than the previous incarnation. It's closer to gut's density, tunes (and stays) quicker (and longer) and looks nicer. Be warned, however, you'll need a thinner diameter than the old Nylgut as less of it wraps around the peg and more of it stays between the nut and bridge coming up to pitch. Disclaimer #1. I've only used it about 2 months so there may be things I've yet to learn. Disclaimer #2. I have no connection to Aquila or other gut or synthetic string maker. As for chanterelles, the mushroom, hedgehogs give close to the same flavor and cost a third of the price. Sean On May 9, 2012, at 10:57 AM, theoj89...@aol.com wrote: I bought a 7c ren lute strung in Nylgut. I love the Nygut, except for the chanterelle, it just doesn't seem to feel or sing as strongly as I wish - it seems thin. Do others have this problem? If so any suggestions, I've thought of going back to a nylon (which would be thicker?). Thanks in advance trj -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Chanterelle choice?
Dan's right about the micrometer. If you're in the US a digital micrometer (or caliper - useful for measuring the fret height, too!) is cheap at Harbor Freight and one should be in everyone's string box. I don't know how they did it in the old days but 3 cheers for modern metrics (and dentistry). Disclaimer #3. I don't work for Harbor Freight. Sean On May 9, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Daniel Winheld wrote: Get a micrometer and measure it. You can't string lutes in the dark, and that's where you are without a micrometer. If it's a .38 mm nylgut and your lute requires a .40 or even a .42, you can get those sizes in nylgut. But you have to know where you are in order to go somewhere else. The new generation of nylgut is stronger matches real gut better than the old white stuff. In fact, nylon was recommended for many 1st course applications until the new stuff came out. Anyway, nylon can sound perfectly fine, and if you like the feel of the thicker string at your desired tension it may be the way to go. Dan On May 9, 2012, at 10:57 AM, theoj89...@aol.com wrote: I bought a 7c ren lute strung in Nylgut. I love the Nygut, except for the chanterelle, it just doesn't seem to feel or sing as strongly as I wish - it seems thin. Do others have this problem? If so any suggestions, I've thought of going back to a nylon (which would be thicker?). Thanks in advance trj -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Dürer
Oh my God! It's full of stars! And now I know how to divide a circle in 5, 15 or 17 sections. Thank you, Andreas! Sean On May 4, 2012, at 11:39 AM, Andreas Schlegel wrote: Have a look at this: http://www.e-rara.ch/zuz/misc/content/titleinfo/2475220 Page 178 is our picture, but here's also the context! Enjoy! Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
If you haven't yet ordered a lute, I would consider an 8 course, which in my opinion is more versatile.A It even allows you to cheat and play 10 course music... Very true, Bruno, I loved exploring the Vallet and Ballard books for years on my 8c, turning singers on to Airs de cours and knowing that nearly all the English was, at least, doable w/out retuning something. That said, I've seen some lovely 7c instruments and they sound better for resisting the extra course. Ed Martin's, for example, as well as Jacob Herringman's 7c Gerle. The latter is interesting in that it retains the earlier parabolic neck which, I think, would not support 8 courses. If that is your route you're well set up to go to the 6c. Ed, I believe you have a gut bass w/ a metal filament on the 7th course on that instrument. Could you weigh in on how it does re: Joshua's question? I'm curious myself. Dalza expected lutes to accept a one-step scordatura and in one 'suite' on the 5th course also. Could the extra half step really be too much? But truthfully, Joshua, a 7c is a fine place to start and I applaud your resolution. You'll work out the D/F situation one way or another. Sean A A Bruno On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Braig, Eugene [1]brai...@osu.edu wrote: It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit your needs. A While short lived in period, they seem pretty ubiquitous today. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used)? Otherwise I have to re- string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. Best wishes, Joshua To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- A Bruno Cognyl-Fournier A [6]www.estavel.org A -- References 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.estavel.org/
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Joshua, There's a lifetime's worth of music in 16th century. If you put on one more course to accomodate Dowland more power to you. Me? I guess I've been shedding courses over my years at it having discovered the renaissance guitar lately. (Mrs Smith, who doesn't share our love of nuance, would prefer I simply shed lutes.) Except for the guitar everything I pick up now has 6 courses. The variety in size while keeping the same rigging is curiously reassuring and does wonders for my hand work. I don't have to deal with the thumb in/out question, either. Yay! It's an interesting concept that as lute time moved forward they added more courses to get the music they wanted but the composers/ intabulators previous were no less ingenious in getting more out of less --and called on their players to reflect as much diversity. You'll find that your talents are no less taxed! It's fascinating to see what you can bring back to the lute in your chosen period by moving laterally around a particular year rather than moving forward and backward in time. Personally, I have a hard time of jumping around in time periods. There are so many here on this list that do that much better. I've seen some folks that like to give a concert that goes from 1500 to 1700. Some prefer a snapshot of a particular period or even one book. To each his own said the farmer as he kissed the cow. Sean On May 2, 2012, at 10:41 AM, Joshua Burkholder wrote: Dear Bruno, Well, I didn't really want to start a 7C vs 8c debate, since I get the impression this fairly well-trodden ground for you guys on this list. I have considered an 8-course, in fact it was my initial plan, and can see the attractiveness of its flexibility. But I really feel most attracted to the 16th century repertoire, and it seems to me a 7- course is the best fit to explore it, that is, all the (vast and wonderful) 6-course stuff to Dowland and his contemporaries. I realize that I'll perhaps miss out on some good later stuff, but it's not like I can never ever buy another lute for the rest of my life! I am just getting started, and the 16th century boasts enough great music to repay several lifetimes of study, and I think will satisfy me for some years to come while I learn the instrument. Then perhaps in 5 years or so, when I've advanced to respectable level and will have had plenty of time to expand my tastes, meet other players, try other instruments, etc. I can always in! vest in another instrument if I want to expand my repertoire. If I'm planning to spend time 1) in Dowland's era, and then 2) much more time in the era before Dowland than in the one after him, the trade-offs between 7 and 8 courses seem to come down in favor of 7. At least for me. I appreciate your advice nonetheless, and indeed I'm in general very impressed in general with how welcoming and kind everyone in the lute world has been to me so far. All the best, Joshua On May 2, 2012, at 6:49 PM, Bruno Fournier wrote: Hello A If you haven't yet ordered a lute, I would consider an 8 course, which in my opinion is more versatile.A It even allows you to cheat and play 10 course music...A A Bruno On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Braig, Eugene [1]brai...@osu.edu wrote: It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit your needs. A While short lived in period, they seem pretty ubiquitous today. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used)? Otherwise I
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Aha, thanks, Ed. Plan your tension in between and split the tension difference. Makes sense to me. Converting it to something else entirely? Sigh. Ok, just kidding. (And yes, I know it's the most athentic way to build a baroque lute) s On May 2, 2012, at 11:05 AM, Edward Martin wrote: Hi Sean, Actually, I do not have a 7-course lute at the moment, I use an 8-course for renaissance lute, as for the reasons cited. i did have a 7-course, which was converted to an 11-course, Frei. When I used it as a 7-course lute, I essentially had it strung with a string in-between the 2 tones... it was low tension for the D, high tension with the F. Using gimped strings on that, it worked OK, but i really like the 8 course, as one has access to both. English music seems to favor the D, where continental music seems to favor the F. ed At 12:52 PM 5/2/2012, Sean Smith wrote: If you haven't yet ordered a lute, I would consider an 8 course, which in my opinion is more versatile.A It even allows you to cheat and play 10 course music... Very true, Bruno, I loved exploring the Vallet and Ballard books for years on my 8c, turning singers on to Airs de cours and knowing that nearly all the English was, at least, doable w/out retuning something. That said, I've seen some lovely 7c instruments and they sound better for resisting the extra course. Ed Martin's, for example, as well as Jacob Herringman's 7c Gerle. The latter is interesting in that it retains the earlier parabolic neck which, I think, would not support 8 courses. If that is your route you're well set up to go to the 6c. Ed, I believe you have a gut bass w/ a metal filament on the 7th course on that instrument. Could you weigh in on how it does re: Joshua's question? I'm curious myself. Dalza expected lutes to accept a one-step scordatura and in one 'suite' on the 5th course also. Could the extra half step really be too much? But truthfully, Joshua, a 7c is a fine place to start and I applaud your resolution. You'll work out the D/F situation one way or another. Sean A A Bruno On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Braig, Eugene [1]brai...@osu.edu wrote: It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit your needs. A While short lived in period, they seem pretty ubiquitous today. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used)? Otherwise I have to re- string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. Best wishes, Joshua To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- A Bruno Cognyl-Fournier A [6]www.estavel.org A -- References 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.estavel.org/ Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Stringing a lute
Mornin', Bill, Ends? Starting w/ a coil, I burn a ball onto it then pass it under the strings. Then I tie the overhand knot around the string leading to the coil. The string leading to the coil is what I pull and sever with the burn. That burned end becomes the ball for the next fret. I don't have any ends left over. As for pliers. I only kinda need them for the first fret. One lute wants a 1.2mm fret at the first which is a pain in the neck, so to speak. Hope this helps. Sean On May 1, 2012, at 8:49 AM, William Samson wrote: Talking of parsimony with string material - I really grudge the ends I need to trim off my fret gut after tying the knot. Effectively I'm throwing away at least as much as I'm keeping. I have tried shorter ends and pulling them tight with pliers, but don't feel comfortable with these sharp, scratchy pliers near my precious lutes. Anybody found a way to save on fret gut? Bill From: Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, 30 April 2012, 20:33 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stringing a lute I call that extra tied on bit a leader. If I use a less stretchy material I know I'll have less spring between peg and nut which speeds and stabilizes tuning. That w/ a bit of beeswax at the nut makes for quicker work. The other reason I'll use it is economy. Sometimes I can get two lengths from a string that would give only one w/out a leader --or three from a nominally two-length string. If I'm _really_ in a pinch the knot will start off between the nut and the 1st fret and just lie behind the nut when tuned up which is not for the faint of heart. I have many different size lutes so I'm constantly measuring and planning. Sometimes I'll use a slightly larger diameter gut string or a hemp string. Back in the late 70's my lute teacher (a master of string parsimony) advocated good old kitchen string. Sean ps Ha! 3 folks already answered while it took me the same time to oversay the same thing. Hell, I'll send it anyway. On Apr 30, 2012, at 12:02 PM, Alain wrote: Hi everyone, When stringing a lute, some people like to cut the strings a little above the nut and tie them with a knot to some non-elastic material like rope or synthetic fiber of some kind that is wound to the peg. What are the advantages of proceeding this way as opposed to just keeping the string whole? Alain To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stringing a lute
I have tried shorter ends and pulling them tight with pliers, I should've been clearer here. If you're making you 5th fret where the 4th or third-and-a-halfth fret would be you should only need enough tension to keep the string taught while burning it. I have about 5 lbs of tension on the smaller frets but the large ones may call for a bit more. Bake the burn about a quarter inch from the knot and then sculpt that nub down w/ your hot knife or iron. Then it can't pass through the knot and you should be good to slide it into place. Sean ps I think Dover publications has a nice book for whips and servings to decorate a trumpet for the Bach lute suites. For that a very small serving mallet is essential. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Stringing a lute
I call that extra tied on bit a leader. If I use a less stretchy material I know I'll have less spring between peg and nut which speeds and stabilizes tuning. That w/ a bit of beeswax at the nut makes for quicker work. The other reason I'll use it is economy. Sometimes I can get two lengths from a string that would give only one w/out a leader --or three from a nominally two-length string. If I'm _really_ in a pinch the knot will start off between the nut and the 1st fret and just lie behind the nut when tuned up which is not for the faint of heart. I have many different size lutes so I'm constantly measuring and planning. Sometimes I'll use a slightly larger diameter gut string or a hemp string. Back in the late 70's my lute teacher (a master of string parsimony) advocated good old kitchen string. Sean ps Ha! 3 folks already answered while it took me the same time to oversay the same thing. Hell, I'll send it anyway. On Apr 30, 2012, at 12:02 PM, Alain wrote: Hi everyone, When stringing a lute, some people like to cut the strings a little above the nut and tie them with a knot to some non-elastic material like rope or synthetic fiber of some kind that is wound to the peg. What are the advantages of proceeding this way as opposed to just keeping the string whole? Alain To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Facsimiles at the Royal Holloway University of London Early Music Online site
There is a tool you can add on to the Firefox browser called Down them all: http://www.downthemall.net/ If you set it for .jpg you can get all images with minimal clicking. Just thought I'd put that out there. Sean On Apr 7, 2012, at 4:55 AM, Matteo Turri wrote: The Royal Holloway University of London Early Music Online site [1]http://digirep.rhul.ac.uk/access/home.do has a number of facsimiles available to download. 34 of them are specific for the lute (search for lute ... ) Enjoy Matteo -- References 1. http://digirep.rhul.ac.uk/access/home.do To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] D'amour me plains M. Newsidler
Could anyone send me a scan of Melchior Newsidler's intabulation of Damour me plains? The German tab facs would be ok but a french tab would save me a bit of decoding. Many thanks in advance, Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Haslemere ms.
Jacob Heringman writes about the similarity of the scribes between the Siena ms. and a Haslemere manuscript in the booklet that accompanies his recording of the former. Is this available? Dolmetsch Library in Haslemere (MS II C23) many thanks in advance, Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Haslemere ms.
Dear Denys and Arthur, Thank you for the leads. I will ask about the possibility of a microfilm. It's interesting that the Haslemere is not connected to the Siena after all. Indeed the Siena looks like a professional undertaking with specific requests as to its contents and looks to be done for the most part at one sitting. I was very intrigued by the possibility of Vestiva colli and others intabulated in the same style as the vocal works in Siena. best regards, Sean On Apr 4, 2012, at 3:22 PM, A. J. Ness wrote: Dear Sean, The handwriting is NOT the same! Jacob was writing when in some quarters the mss were thought to have the same scribe. The person who made that claim realized in 1999 that he was mistaken, and has since corrected himself. The manuscript in question, by the way, is Ms II.C.23 in the Dolmetsch Library at Haslemere, which was most likely copied by several different scribes in Savona for a member of the della Robbia family, and came to Florence as dowry around 1634 when Vittoria II della Robbia (daughter of the last Duke of Urbino) married Ferdinando II dei Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany. The Siena manuscript in The Hague is named according to information on the engraved spine on the 19th-century binding which reads Italienische Lautentabulatur gefunden in Siena 1863 F[ranz] G[ehring--the purchaser]. It has a Siena watermark and a layer of pieces by Siennese lutenist/composers. Its careful, uniform paleography suggests that it was copied in a music scriptorium by one professional scribe. See the detailed autopsy report with concordances on the Haslemere MS made *in situ* by John H. Robinson (with notes by Robert Spencer) and published in the Dolmetsch journal *The Consort* 26 (2006). AJN. - Original Message - From: Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 3:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Haslemere ms. Jacob Heringman writes about the similarity of the scribes between the Siena ms. and a Haslemere manuscript in the booklet that accompanies his recording of the former. Is this available? Dolmetsch Library in Haslemere (MS II C23) many thanks in advance, Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Recorder and Lute
I should think Ortiz' variations on chansons and madrigals would be fair game. Dalla Cassa is a lot of fun if only because they're so difficult for the melody instrument. Giovanni Bassano, too, but since he comes from a family of traverso makers there are probably those who would take issue with me but they are lovely. And by extension most chansons from mid/late-16th century (giving the top voice to the soprano recorder and the lower 3 --or even alto and bass-- to the lute) are easily doable. It usually means arranging it yourself but that's part of playing the lute. My current favorite is Crecquillon but Sermisy, Certon, Jannequin, non Papa, Lasso, deRore and Pathie have all been flavors of the month at some time or another. Any decent music/university library (and now the web!) will have scores. If you're in a purchasing mood, London Pro Musica scores are wonderful and often have a lute tab page for us grand-staff cripples. The Attagnant 1529 Tres breve et Familiere Introduction are songs of this ilk and are all ready to go. Even in the facsimile you luck out by having it set usually for a G lute and a G clef for the singer/ melody instrument. The Phalese 1553 is another good source for mid- century lutesongs but often various clefs and/or lute sizes are specified (but not written in stone so somebody gets to transpose). My 1.9 cents. Please round down in Canada. Sean On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:41 PM, Tobiah wrote: How are the timelines of these instruments related, and what pieces include both instruments? Thanks, Tobiah To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Right hand plucking position - was Re: Quality vs Quantity
I was just playing dear old Languir me fait last night which happens to be the first lutesong I was introduced to at Barrington in 78 or 79. Suzanne kindly and patiently sang the Attagnant with me. Nervous? oh yes. She had me loving it in no time and for that brief moment I have a lot to appreciate. Nice to see her name pop up this morning. Sean On Mar 28, 2012, at 9:53 AM, Nancy Carlin wrote: I was at the lute seminar (produced by Donna Curry) that Susanne and Diana attended. They played a lovely duet concert. I remember seeing them having a good time talking with each other, but Susanne was a great talker. I also remember that listening to her required you to re-adjust your head because the ideas went by a bit faster than what you heard from other people. Nancy It looks like quite an independent strand of development of lute technique was developed by Iadone, likely starting with the same sources as Poulton used. I think Diana Poulton and Susanne Bloch became great friends in the '60s, but I could have my date wrong there. Diana did attend at least one LSA get-together. I would guess Iadone's influence on this side of the Pond mostly came via his student, the great Jim Tyler, who lived in London for many years. I wondered if Paul O'Dette had studied lute with him, but as far as I can see the only lutenist teacher mentioned in his resume is Eugen Dombois - yet another strand! Best regards, Bill From: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 27 March 2012, 21:36 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Right hand plucking position - was Re: Quality vs Quantity Fortunately, I think, Iadone had no teacher (of lute) . He was from quite a different musical and lute 'family' than Dolmetsch and Poulton; no relation to Dolmetsch, I would say, and only a very distant relation to Poulton. Best, Ned On Mar 27, 2012, at 3:02 PM, William Samson wrote: I couldn't agree more, Ned. But Schaeffer was the one who successfully proselytised and tipped the balance. Even before Iadone there was Arnold Dolmetsch - a flesh-plucking-pinky-on-bridger, uncontaminated because he learned straight from the sources and didn't play classical guitar first. Here's an image of him around 100 years ago: [1][1] http://tinyurl.com/ccmoxu6 He went on to teach Diana Poulton, who went on to teach . . . almost everybody! Regards, Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [2]http://tinyurl.com/ccmoxu6 2. [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web sites - [4]www.nancycarlinassociates.com [5]www.groundsanddivisions.info Representing: FROM WALES - Crasdant Carreg Lafar, FROM ENGLAND - Jez Lowe Jez Lowe The Bad Pennies, and now representing EARLY MUSIC - The Venere Lute Quartet, The Good Pennyworths Morrongiello Young Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - [6]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org -- References 1. http://tinyurl.com/ccmoxu6 2. http://tinyurl.com/ccmoxu6 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/ 5. http://www.groundsanddivisions.info/ 6. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/
[LUTE] Re: Saturday quote: Sean nos for St. P
Ach, dear old Pierre Phalese. We'll always wonder about the back story. As anthologies go, they're a wonderful pool to draw from. When we see the other books he pulled from and what he thought would be worthy of further desemination, upgrading and elimination he starts to show us much more of popularity trends. I have sooo many questions for him when I get my time machine! Sean On Mar 21, 2012, at 1:35 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: Thanks, Tom and Mark. Forgive the off-topic nature of this but we actually saw the credit to Herbert Hughes many years ago, and understand that Hughes was a collector and assembler of anthologies who was rather aggressive about taking credit for whatever he could. In the US folk music realm, we have something of an equivalent in AP Carter, who collected and copyrighted, and recorded a massive number of folk songs. Veering back to topic, I suppose we have historical 'anthologizers' in the lute realm as well, Phalese, Besard, Mertel to name a few. I wonder if the staff lutenist-arranger who did all the work for Phalese would object that the publisher got all the credit for his work? RA Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 14:09:49 -0500 To: magg...@sonic.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; praelu...@hotmail.com From: t...@heartistrymusic.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saturday quote: Sean nos for St. P We offer a video of Donna singing an Irish ballad that may or may not be old. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-lK RD Beautiful! Published by Boosey Hawkes, 1909. Irish Country Songs Collected in Donegal by poet Padraic Colum and Herbert Hughes Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Saturday quote:
Would that make Phalese the Napster or the Pirate Bay? A lot of parallels as I see it between then and now. An exploding technology to take advantage of exploding music trends and a growing middle class (well, until recently...) to grow the cultures in. On Mar 21, 2012, at 2:13 PM, howard posner wrote: At an LSA seminar, Isabelle, whose last name I don't quite remember and could never spell, remarked that Attaignant was the Mel Bay of the 16th century. On Mar 21, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Sean Smith wrote: Ach, dear old Pierre Phalese. We'll always wonder about the back story. As anthologies go, they're a wonderful pool to draw from. When we see the other books he pulled from and what he thought would be worthy of further desemination, upgrading and elimination he starts to show us much more of popularity trends. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?)
What a tangled web we weave, Of oxen gut and silken sleeve. Cobdoggerel Smith On Mar 7, 2012, at 11:12 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Actually they have a brilliant survival strategy. Normally spiders do not co-operate, but in the case of emergency... Well they have had 400 million years to adapt to the events in nature... Compare that to the time span to ours... Arto On 07/03/12 20:20, cyndi...@netscape.net wrote: Anyone from Australia? Scoop up this bounty of spider webs and make some lute strings for us! http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/17273309 -Original Message- From: alexandervoka...@verizon.net To: Ron Andricopraelu...@hotmail.com Cc: agno3phileagno3ph...@yahoo.com; tomt...@heartistrymusic.com; lutelute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:54 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?) I seriously doubt there is an interest in the mechanics of the subject on this ist, which are rather complex. It matters to say that the spider silk research s an immensely long and difficult endeavor, without a clear end in sight. The ultured silk research, going on for some 600 years, still regularly surprises he heck out of itself. t is generally agreed that, with small variations, all the silks, be it moths r spiders, or some fishes and mammals (yes!) consist of pretty much the same lements - fibroin, based on the proteins similar to our hair and fingernails, ust in somewhat different proportions and mixtures, and a glue holding ilaments together, in case of moths and spiders - sericin. he sometimes enormous strength of spider silk results not from its' omposition, but rather from the spacial arrangement of the filaments, supported y the smart bends and nicks with a judicial dab of glue here and there, both on micro and macro level. and this is where the enormous amount of research goes n. TO make a useful musical strings, this spacial arrangement needs to be vercome and some new one created, which cancels all the wonderful inventiveness he spider just put into the process... The glue bits are melted in the process, nd the fancy curly hair go straight, as the perm in the shower. Sure it gives he one who makes such a string a painless pastime, and lots of it, and then espect for being persistent, and girls and free drinks that follow. But as far s the string goes, - nothing fancy here, exactly because of the necessary traightening of the tiny filaments to arrange them laterally into the string. his destroys the fancy spider's footwork. uriously enough, the gut strings, on the other hand, completely preserve the atices of arrangement among the filaments, as they are too strong and too fancy o be destroyed by the processing and stretching. You see, the gut is never aken apart into tiny filaments, as silk is. This gives gut strings all the ualities we all love and enjoy. O see the following links, remove spaces in http. t t p://web.mit.edu/course/3/3.064/www/slides/Ko_spider_silk.pdf t t p://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2012/01/spider-silk-va t t p://theheritagetrust.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/rare-spider-silk- textile-on-display-at-the-victoria-albert-museum/ lexander r. n Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:23:12 + on Andricopraelu...@hotmail.com wrote: I feel inclined to point out that we have one of the foremost authorities on silk strings contributing to this list, Alex Rakov. While spider silk may vary slightly from typical silkworm stuff, I'm sure they behave in a similar fashion. Alex? RA To get on or off this list see list information at ttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Ford Airs de Coeur
Hi Tom, I don't see any replies to your question --Have you driven a Ford discussion lately?-- so here's what I know. He certainly doesn't figure prominently in the first string of late Elizabethan or Jacobean composers but one book of his survives: Musicke of Sundrie Kindes Set forth in two Bookes. The First Whereof Are Aries [sic] for 4 Voices to the Lute, Orphorion, or Basse Viol, with a Dialogue for two Voices, and two Basse Viols in parts, tunde the Lute way. The Second are Pavens, Galiards, Almaines, Toies, Iigges, Thumpes and suchlike, for two Basse-Viols, the Lieraway, so made as the greatest number may serve to play alone, very easie to be performde. Composed by Thomas Ford ... John Windet ... Fleetstreet 1607. I wrote out the entire title to give an idea of what was where in his books. They were printed together and reprinted by Scolar Press in 1978. The pieces you mentioned are in the 2nd Booke and are set for two bass viols written in lute tablature much like the Tobias Hume books (1605, 1607). He was no doubt familiar with at least the first TH book since he also gives the wide option of almost any combination (or solo). Both are printed by John Windet. Hume takes it one further by setting his second book for trios, also for viols or nearly any combination of lutes, viols and/or orpharions. The 'lira-way' tuning is similar to bandora tuning. You should be able to transcribe the bandora pieces for lute (something Nancy Carlin has been doing from the Holmes lutebooks, btw). I haven't tried Fnord's but Hume's viol music sounds very nice on lute(s) and wires. Two other English composers included lira-way viol pieces (Corkine, Maynard) so the solo viol was apparently enjoying a relative popularity at the time. I'm not sure these would join the Airs de Coeur club as the songs he wrote are very English in composition (at least the ones I know --I could be mistaken since it's been a while). I don't know of an on-line source for these so if you can't find them, let me know and I'll send you some scans. best wishes, Sean On Feb 24, 2012, at 10:07 AM, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: Dear Lute Friends, A student of mine heard some Thomas Ford airs de coeur on public radio performed by Godelieve Monden and Narcisso Yepes. The selections are: Allemande Forget Me Not A Pavan A Galliard The Bagpipes The Wild Goose Chase Are these available anywhere in Fronimo or PDF? Thanks, Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ford Airs de Coeur
I always assumed it was one of those noble puns and now I can't remember which is which. Sean On Feb 25, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Christopher Stetson wrote: Hi, to all, I don't have a source for Ford's music, alas, and agree with all that Sean said about it. However, I'm writing in my curmudgeonly persona to try to nip an understandable but bogus etymology from taking hold. To whit: the French style which Ford's songs probably do not represent are airs de cour, songs of the court, not airs de coeur, songs of the heart. Just sayin', that's all. Best to all, and keep playing, Chris. On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Sean Smith [1]lutesm...@mac.com wrote: Hi Tom, I don't see any replies to your question --Have you driven a Ford discussion lately?-- so here's what I know. He certainly doesn't figure prominently in the first string of late Elizabethan or Jacobean composers but one book of his survives: Musicke of Sundrie Kindes Set forth in two Bookes. The First Whereof Are Aries [sic] for 4 Voices to the Lute, Orphorion, or Basse Viol, with a Dialogue for two Voices, and two Basse Viols in parts, tunde the Lute way. The Second are Pavens, Galiards, Almaines, Toies, Iigges, Thumpes and suchlike, for two Basse-Viols, the Lieraway, so made as the greatest number may serve to play alone, very easie to be performde. Composed by Thomas Ford ... John Windet ... Fleetstreet 1607. I wrote out the entire title to give an idea of what was where in his books. They were printed together and reprinted by Scolar Press in 1978. The pieces you mentioned are in the 2nd Booke and are set for two bass viols written in lute tablature much like the Tobias Hume books (1605, 1607). He was no doubt familiar with at least the first TH book since he also gives the wide option of almost any combination (or solo). Both are printed by John Windet. Hume takes it one further by setting his second book for trios, also for viols or nearly any combination of lutes, viols and/or orpharions. The 'lira-way' tuning is similar to bandora tuning. You should be able to transcribe the bandora pieces for lute (something Nancy Carlin has been doing from the Holmes lutebooks, btw). I haven't tried Fnord's but Hume's viol music sounds very nice on lute(s) and wires. Two other English composers included lira-way viol pieces (Corkine, Maynard) so the solo viol was apparently enjoying a relative popularity at the time. I'm not sure these would join the Airs de Coeur club as the songs he wrote are very English in composition (at least the ones I know --I could be mistaken since it's been a while). I don't know of an on-line source for these so if you can't find them, let me know and I'll send you some scans. best wishes, Sean On Feb 24, 2012, at 10:07 AM, [2]t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: Dear Lute Friends, A student of mine heard some Thomas Ford airs de coeur on public radio performed by Godelieve Monden and Narcisso Yepes. The selections are: Allemande Forget Me Not A Pavan A Galliard The Bagpipes The Wild Goose Chase Are these available anywhere in Fronimo or PDF? Thanks, Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music [3]http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 [4]715-682-9362 -- To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com 2. mailto:t...@heartistrymusic.com 3. http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 4. tel:715-682-9362 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Announcement of lute for sale
Surely you can make a case for it. Sean On Feb 17, 2012, at 5:11 PM, Edward Mast wrote: No bid for this instrument from me . . . too many strings attached. On Feb 17, 2012, at 6:10 PM, David Smith wrote: 200 Sent from my iPhone On Feb 17, 2012, at 3:03 PM, wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: My bid is 120 euros! ;-) Arto On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:34:46 -0800 (PST), David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I think since it is posted to the list (and I mean posted) we should auction the lute. I will bid 100 Euros just to start the ball rolling. dt __ From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, February 16, 2012 8:00:13 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Announcement of lute for sale Miguel confirms what I thought, he is experimenting with different lutes. However, I must state that I am not myself selling this lute, I only agreed to send Miguel's message on to the list for information. Any queries about seeing and trying out the lute must therefore be addressed directly to Miguel. Regards Anthony __ De : Edward Martin [1]e...@gamutstrings.com A : Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com Envoye le : Jeudi 16 fevrier 2012 15h37 Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Announcement of lute for sale That is an astonishing, gorgeous lute. Who built it, and why is Miguel selling it? ed At 08:23 AM 2/16/2012, you wrote: Following a problem for reading a symbol, here goes, The following 11C lute is for sale in Paris: [15.2.2012] After Johan Christian Hoffman, Leipzig 1730 (Brussels Museum). Description : Table : Spruce from the Dolomites / Resonance case : Curly maple / Marquetry : Pear tree and Amboyna burl. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Announcement of lute for sale
No, not really. Don't want to stick my neck out. On Feb 17, 2012, at 7:03 PM, Edward Martin wrote: Don't you have the guts to bid on it? At 07:15 PM 2/17/2012, Sean Smith wrote: Surely you can make a case for it. Sean On Feb 17, 2012, at 5:11 PM, Edward Mast wrote: No bid for this instrument from me . . . too many strings attached. On Feb 17, 2012, at 6:10 PM, David Smith wrote: 200 Sent from my iPhone On Feb 17, 2012, at 3:03 PM, wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: My bid is 120 euros! ;-) Arto On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:34:46 -0800 (PST), David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I think since it is posted to the list (and I mean posted) we should auction the lute. I will bid 100 Euros just to start the ball rolling. dt __ From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, February 16, 2012 8:00:13 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Announcement of lute for sale Miguel confirms what I thought, he is experimenting with different lutes. However, I must state that I am not myself selling this lute, I only agreed to send Miguel's message on to the list for information. Any queries about seeing and trying out the lute must therefore be addressed directly to Miguel. Regards Anthony __ De : Edward Martin [1]e...@gamutstrings.com A : Anthony Hind [2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com Envoye le : Jeudi 16 fevrier 2012 15h37 Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Announcement of lute for sale That is an astonishing, gorgeous lute. Who built it, and why is Miguel selling it? ed At 08:23 AM 2/16/2012, you wrote: Following a problem for reading a symbol, here goes, The following 11C lute is for sale in Paris: [15.2.2012] After Johan Christian Hoffman, Leipzig 1730 (Brussels Museum). Description : Table : Spruce from the Dolomites / Resonance case : Curly maple / Marquetry : Pear tree and Amboyna burl. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Dumps and Downes
is asking the musicians to play to relieve him from his doleful dumps (very much the use of a dump, as suggested by Sean’s message below, be careful, the “doleful dumps” refers here to the mood, and not the music, which is merry); therefore a consoling dump, might not always be mournful, and might not even be explicitly labelled as a dump. % Romeo and Juliet Act iv Scene 5 Musicians, O musicians, “Heart's ease,” “Heart's ease”! O, an you will have me live, play “Heart's ease. ” FIRST MUSICIAN Why “Heart's ease”? PETER O musicians, because my heart itself plays, My heart is full. O play me some merry dump to comfort me. (...) FIRST MUSICIAN Not a dump we! 'Tis no time to play now. (...) When griping grief the heart doth wound, And doleful dumps the mind oppress, Then music with her silver sound, Why silver sound? Why music with her silver sound? (...) I say silver sound because musicians sound for silver. % This could explain (see Sean), why surving music labelled as dumps, do not in fact have the caracteristics we now associate with the typical Renaissance lament-like pieces such as 'Semper Dowland, semper dolens'; Julia Craig-McFeely (in her thesis ?) rightly says, they indicate that the conveying of 'sad' sentiments had by this time developed clear associations with minor tonality, chromaticism and slow harmonic and rhythmic movement; most lute dumps do not exhibit these features. % This rather puts in question Alan Brown’s over generalisation that The musical dump was variously described as 'solemn and still', 'deploring' and 'doleful'; there is some evidence to suggest that it was the English equivalent of the French deploration or tombeau, a piece composed in memory of a recently deceased person. % Apart from the probability that the term dump was not always used to refer to doleful music, it does seem to have been used as a derisive description of a doleful lover’s lament accompanied, or played, on the lute, (seemingly caricaturing some earlier more serious courtly fashion for such behaviour?): See for example, Roister Doister, by Nicholas Udall (before 1553) Act. ij. Scene.j. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21350/21350-h/21350-h.htm I trowe neuer was any creature liuyng, With euery woman is he in some loues pang, Then vp to our lute at midnight, twangledome twang, Then twang with our sonets, and twang with our dumps, And heyhough from our heart, as heauie as lead lumpess. % This notion of lover’s lament (always seemingly caricatured, as here) never seems to be a potential extension of the French Tombeau, even if Gallot’s Tombeau for Psyché is not explicitly a Tombeau composed in memory of a recently deceased person. % The ironical association of love’s pang with the dumps on a lute, could possibly show that such lute dumps are already somewhat out of fashion in the 16th century, and this could be confirmed when Sir Philip Sydney, in Must Love Lament? (16th cent.) associates « dumps » with Chaucer’s mistress (i.e. the 15th century). http://poetry.poetryx.com/poems/7275/ My hand doth not bear witness with my heart, She saith, because I make no woeful lays, To paint my living death and endless smart: And so, for one that felt god Cupidís dart, She thinks I lead and live too merry days. % Are poets then the only lovers true, Whose hearts are set on measuring a verse? Who think themselves well blest, if they renew Some good old dump that Chaucerís mistress knew; And use but you for matters to rehearse. % Could the good old dump evoke an earlier troubadour-style of courtly love, now comically quite out of fashion ? % Finally, as a phonetician, interested in historical linguistic processes, I have my doubts about a form like dump/dompe having but one origin and one meaning; it is highly likely that there may have been an Anglo-saxon as well as a Norse origin to these forms which may further have undergone dialectal variation. It is possible that more than one meaning is also associated with musical dumps. In particular, the primary meaning that the OED gives for dump is a stunned state of bewilderment ; and this is the meaning present in Holinshed's Chronicles of England, Scotland, and Ireland 1577, as in But the earle and his compa|nie, who had bÈene shut vp now two moneths within the citie, and whose vittels failed, (...) were in a great dumpe and perplexitie, and in a maner were at their wits end, and wist not what to doo. http://www.english.ox.ac.uk/holinshed/texts.php?text1=1587_0404 % It is not inconceivable that a fairly complex variation (more complex say than a trifling Toy), might have become associated with this meaning (i.e. a sort of musical maze). Regards Anthony ___ De : Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com À : lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoyé le : Dimanche 12 février 2012 18h51 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Dumps and Downes The dumpes question seems to have settled down again but I
[LUTE] Re: Dumps and Downes
The dumpes question seems to have settled down again but I have to wonder, could they simply be a lullabies? The repetitive, hypnotic character is like no other kind of composition and they never really get what you could call exciting. I'm thinking of the earlier ones pivoting on C and Bb; not the bergamask variations. (They may have gotten the lumped in with dumps due to their seemingly endless strains and may even be as hypnotic but they don't have that Gooo tooo slp feel.) I just looked at the two Goodnights in Dd 2.11 and they are both just beautiful and boring --a great trick to pull off and if done at their best you should never hear any applause! That many appear by J. Johnson in service to the queen suggests they had a use perhaps in the same sense as dances for dancing and songs for engaging poetry. Just my cent and a half. Sean On Feb 9, 2012, at 3:44 PM, Leonard Williams wrote: Bernd sent me the following (I don't think it got to the whole list): -- Forwarded Message From: Bernd Haegemann b...@symbol4.de Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 23:38:51 +0100 To: Leonard Williams arc...@verizon.net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Dumps and Downes I have only 2 dumps and thought them to be quite humpty-dumpty, but read this: ** Dump. A type of instrumental piece occurring in English sources between about 1540 and 1640. Some 20 examples are known, more than half of them for lute and most of the remainder for keyboard. The word is of uncertain derivation. In the 16th century it denoted mental perplexity or a state of melancholy. The musical dump was variously described as 'solemn and still', 'deploring' and 'doleful'; there is some evidence to suggest that it was the English equivalent of the French déploration or tombeau, a piece composed in memory of a recently deceased person. 16 dumps are listed in Ward (1951): all are anonymous except for two by John Johnson. A few more are included in the catalogue in Lumsden, among them a relatively ambitious work in the Marsh Lutebook (IRL-Dm Z.3.2.13) labelled 'Dump philli' (ed. in Ward, 1992, ii, no.4; the piece is unlikely to be by either Philip van Wilder or Peter Philips as was formerly thought). The earliest known dump, My Lady Careys Dompe (in GB-Lbl Roy.App.58; MB, lxvi, 1995, no.37), is familiar as an early example of idiomatic keyboard writing. It is written over an ostinato bass, a simple alternation of tonic and dominant (TTDD). Most other dumps share this type of construction, using similar bass patterns (DTDT, TTDT) or standard grounds such as the bergamasca, passamezzo antico and romanesca. Some later examples have different formal schemes, such as The Irishe Dumpe in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book (ed. J.A. Fuller Maitland and W.B. Squire, Leipzig, 1899/R, rev. 2/1979-80 by B. Winogron, no.179), which is a simply harmonized melody of three strains. An isolated late example is An Irish Dump, an instrumental tune printed in Smollet Holden's A Collection of Old Established Irish Slow and Quick Tunes (Dublin, c1807) and reproduced in Grove5; Beethoven arranged it for voice and piano trio, to words by Joanna Baillie, in his collection of 25 Irish songs woo152 no.8 (London and Edinburgh, 1814). Bibliography J.M. Ward: 'The Dolfull Domps', JAMS, iv (1951), 111-21 D. Lumsden: The Sources of English Lute Music, 1540-1620 (diss., U. of Cambridge, 1955) J. Caldwell: English Keyboard Music Before the Nineteenth Century (Oxford, 1973) J.(M.) Ward: Commentary to The Dublin Virginal Manuscript (London, 1983) J.M. Ward: Music for Elizabethan Lutes (Oxford, 1992) Alan Brown *** best wishes Bernd - Original Message - From: Leonard Williams arc...@verizon.net To: Bernd Haegemann b...@symbol4.de Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 11:23 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Dumps and Downes Bernd-- Nothing from Grove's--or else I didn't notice the citation. Leonard On 2/8/12 3:43 PM, Bernd Haegemann b...@symbol4.de wrote: Dear Leonard, I suppose someone sent you the article from Grove's dictionary? best wishes Bernd - Original Message - From: Leonard Williams arc...@verizon.net To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 1:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Dumps and Downes What can the collective wisdom share about a style of composition called down(e) or dump? I have four of these: two from Holmes (ff. 12, 94) and two from Marsh (ff. 124, 426). Questions: Are they basically divisions on a ground? Does one follow a strict rhythm with them? I enjoy playing (in some cases simply attempting) these. Are there others, perhaps by different names/titles? Thanks and regards, Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- End of Forwarded Message
[LUTE] Re: korg lca-120
From what I read of the reviews it's just the thing if equal temperment is your goal. It will accept *one* other temperment that you'll have to input yourself. From a review on Amazon: We specifically wanted a tuner that could do non-equal temperament (if you don't know what I mean by that, then this review might not be very helpful to you). This one is programmable, so I figured it would be fine... We'll mostly do 1/4 comma meantone, it's probably a pre- programmed setting. No. There are no preprogrammed settings. And you can only store one program, so I hope we don't want to try a different tuning any time soon. Furthermore, there was no feature to tune one octave and copy those settings to other octaves, so I had to make a spreadsheet, calculate all of the cents displacements for all of the octaves, and individually add each one. As I said, I hope we don't want to try a different tuning any time soon I won't be running out to get one. Sean On Feb 10, 2012, at 9:30 AM, Jaroslaw Lipski wrote: I am not sure if this is correct as it appears on Korg.uk http://www.korg.co.uk/products/tuners/lca120/tu_lca120.asp It is being sold by many dealers online too. Jaroslaw W dniu 2012-02-10 17:41, David Smith pisze: One consideration might be that the LCA-120 appears to no longer be made... Sent from my iPhone On Feb 10, 2012, at 2:44 AM, Jaroslaw Lipskijaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Yes, Thomann has it even cheaper which makes me think even more if I really need those other features. LCA120 has a line in too. The accuracy should be the same as it is meant for orchestral instruments. The design is really nice and handy - after folding it fits easily in any jacket pocket and can be kept safely on a music stand (as it is flat). Big screen makes it even more convenient for a concert situation. My main concern is preset programming feature which I haven't had opportunity to try. Otherwise it looks to me like everything I need during a concert or rehearsal. But obviously anyone of you that had any experience with LCA120 is welcomed to comment. I know OT120, it is good but not absolutely necessary in my opinion. The main reason for not using cheaper equivalents was a lack of temperament presets. LCA 120 has it (once you programme it). So... Anyway, thanks for a post All best Jaroslaw W dniu 2012-02-10 09:49, hera caius pisze: On Thomann: OT120 - 91 euro LCA120 - 30 euro It means it is 3x cheaper. Obviously the OT120 has much more features. I use OT120 from 2007 and it was perfect for all situations and all instruments including Harpsichord, Positif Organ, Viola da Gamba, Violin, Baroque flute and all my lutes and guitars.It also has line in and out for more electric and amplified signal. But hey, that's my opinion... Good luck, Caius --- On Thu, 2/9/12, Jaroslaw Lipskijaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: Jaroslaw Lipskijaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] korg lca-120 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edulute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, February 9, 2012, 5:40 PM Anyone using Korg LCA-120? I just wonder if the difference between this model and OT-120 is worth paying almost twice as much money. My first impression is that what is unique for OT-120 is Sound back mode and eight presets for historical temperaments, however one can programme his own presets in LCA-120, so in this respect the difference doesn't seem to be huge. On the other hand LCA-120 is very handy, flat and has a big LCD which is very good for a concert situation. Any thoughts? All best Jaroslaw To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuning software?
I use Strobe Tuner 1.6 from Katsura Shareware. $15. (It's good on a Mac back to 10.3.9 --which is my Mac/Windows/Fronimo machine.) I more often use the Cleartune on an ipod touch since it's easier to hold w/ a lute in my hand and does pretty much all the same things. The Cleartune also has the ability to set a scale from any played note, too. (I.e., If someone gives you This is what we're calling an A but I can't tell you the hertz.) Sean (shorter answer: ditto Andreas. I'm a slow typer.) On Jan 29, 2012, at 8:41 AM, David van Ooijen wrote: It has come up, and I even had something installed on my computer once, but I lost all. Does anybody use tuning software for Windows and/or Mac, and if so, any feedback on the software used? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Facsimile Dimensions
Tom, I just looked at my old Scolar Press facsimile and measured the height of the first page of music (Unquiet thoughts). From top of the I to the bottom of the extra stanzas measures 24.7cm (10 5/8) --this is the verticle boundry of the printed area; not the page size. The publisher's Note at the beginning states that it is reproduced at the original size. This one is reprinted from the British Library. I've always found this series and those printed at the original size to be fairly legible on the table or music stand. There are other facsimiles that are shot down where it becomes pointless to sightread. For example, there is an edition of Tobias Hume that recently circulated around local viola da gambists that I consider way too small for practical play. If this too small go with Scolar Press if you can find them or Performer's Facsimiles. Sean On Jan 20, 2012, at 9:30 AM, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: Hello Luters, I recently purchased a new facsimile edition of John Dowland's First Booke of Songes Or Ayres. (Peter Short - 1597) ($13.85 via Amazon). It is print-on-demand from EBBO (Early English Books Online). Probably from microfilm, it says it is a reproduction of an original in the Henry E. Huntington Library. It measures 7.5 x 9.75 inches. The cantus and lute tablature are on the left-hand page, with the tenor, alto, and bass on the right-hand page. It appears to be an accurate study facsimile edition, but would be difficult to read from on a table. Was the original larger? And were all the parts for a song printed on one sheet of paper? What was the original format? Thanks, Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ornithology
The Jannequin chanson (La canzone dell Ucelli) cycle was intabulated by PPBorrono (or Francesco, it's unclear). Not easy! There is a duet of it in the Munich mss. for various tunings of descant (a contrapunto) over lower voices. Also for ren guitar: L'Alouette in A. LeRoy's 4th book. Sean On Jan 11, 2012, at 1:57 PM, Bernd Haegemann wrote: Dear all, please name me some lute pieces dedicated to birds. I have the whole Gallot collection, a Gautier rossignol, there is the nice rossignol duet.. Thank your for your suggestions! Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Visee + traverso
Also: Ensemble Barocco Italiano (Massimo Gentili-Tedechi, traversiere; Francesco Tapella, tiorba; Barbara Petrucci, clav.; Maurizio Mingardi, viola da gamba) Nuova Era 7163, 1993 On Jan 4, 2012, at 9:36 AM, Daniel Shoskes wrote: Pascal Monteilhet and I believe Joachim Held. On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Edward Martin [1]e...@gamutstrings.com wrote: What are the recordings? At 11:24 AM 1/4/2012, Daniel Shoskes wrote: There are a few recordings of music of Robert deVisee for theorbo and flute/traverso. Does anyone know the sources and whether pdf's are available? Thanks Danny -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [3]e...@gamutstrings.com voice: [4](218) 728-1202 [5]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name [6]http://www.myspace.com/edslute [7]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin -- References 1. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 4. tel:%28218%29%20728-1202 5. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name 6. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 7. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: gut string, Petition, period colons etc.
Old Japanese saying: When the wind blows, the cats disappear. s On Nov 23, 2011, at 12:34 PM, Garry Warber wrote: Why, was them fightin' words? :-) No, actually, I don't care what you use... I just am starting to look askance at the brouhaha over the EU ban thing. It doesn’t matter what instrument you use or how it's set up. How you play what you have is the thing, correct? I still think you guys should think here kitty, kitty... After all, they aren't just for stir-fry anymore! -Original Message- From: Edward Mast Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:43 PM To: Garry Warber Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: gut string, Petition, period colons etc. Said, I trust, with tongue firmly in cheek . . . On Nov 23, 2011, at 4:14 AM, Garry Warber wrote: Perhaps if you intestine-twiddlers would give a listen to this you may amend your aberrant ways: http://youtube.com/watch?v=YxVzNZVflL8 I hope I have the link right... :-) Garry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Bill That's a good question and we should all get a chance to listen to the experiment. I did and from my experience a unison-strung 6c is pretty clunky to play. When you have two ropey gut 6th course basses side by side you run into intonation (and buzzing) problems and it's pretty difficult to get a good tone playing both w/ a thumb. It also gets difficult to finger on the left hand. To my ear it becomes muddy. As I understand it, playing with octaves you should play the fundamental and brush the octave (simultaineously) as a habit so the ear hears the bass note correctly and still unconsciously digests the overtones keeping the sound bright and light. This is only my interpretation of it over the years. Sean On Nov 20, 2011, at 10:53 AM, William Samson wrote: Certainly, Ed. But how many vihuelas do we see nowadays in these configurations? In fact I wonder if there's a single one that isn't set up with unisons throughout and a double first? We're very conservative (with a small 'c') when it comes to pushing the envelope. I wonder if there was any recognised difference between how lutes and vihuelas were strung in a given place at the time. Nowadays, though, we're very blinkered about it all and conform to templates which are in some ways questionable. I'd love to hear Milan, say, played on an octave strung vihuela, or Milano on a unison strung 6c lute. Bill From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:31 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were not. They may have had the double first course, but there is evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on 4,5, and 6th courses. ed At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number 30, July 1976 [1][1]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf They say (p37) Instruments which come to mind that had double first courses and unison basses were 1. Vihuela 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . . They give references on which they base these statements. Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled into a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more courses have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses but 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm as guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty of evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it would be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these seem to have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, there's no need to explore anything else. Bill PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) From: Daniel Winheld [2]dwinh...@comcast.net To: William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page The lute in its historical reality- 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having been strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, on the other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double trebles. [2][6]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and strung with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance Instruments) in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded 'darker' than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. Bill From: wikla [3][7]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To:
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Gut and modern metal-wound are truly different animals. Try this thought experiment. As you know the modern string (this will be an abbreviation for the modern metal wound around a synthetic core, ok?) will ring considerably longer. Assuming the tensions are equal, the gut string will dissipate quicker. So where does the energy go? What's stopping that big piece of rope? All those big rubbery strands are rubbing against each other as they push various internal parts in conflicting directions and the direction of any one point on that string is not a deterministic line back and forth or even a smooth oval like you see on a modern string. So yes, in a sense it does a lot of cancelling out and counterproduction. When you strike a fat fundamental gut string you can actually feel the whole lute move. That energy is being dissipated into the lute's mass. Some of it is also absorbed into other strings. (Watch Jacob Herringmann play his bass lute; he holds it very loosely to let the lute absorb the sound and create a very striking overtone that is _not_ part of the string. No, you won't hear it on the cd. Get up close and personal.). Admittedly some of it is also absorbed into other strings and you'll see them move sympathetically. When a string is behaving and decaying like this the upper overtones are very difficult to hear but the bass note/fundamental is powerful and nuanced from its own nature and the lute. As you might expect, all that energy dissipating so quickly in so many places means it dies in volume quickly along w/ any higher overtones it produces. When you pluck a bass gut ropey fundamental there's a big thud and you feel it as much as you hear it. Two thuds that decay together don't really help but a smaller string that moves with the overtones will continue to convey the purpose of that note. As the lute moved into the baroque a curious though predictable change occurs. The lute must be made more larger to support the space and tension of so many strings (and those extra strings create a tension that additionally strengthens it) and, viola, a longer lasting bass note. Now where does the energy go? It doesn't! It rings longer! You can easily do this experiment playing Tant que vivray on a 6c and then on a 10c. (Yes, I've done this on identical strung 6c and 10c lutes) Going back to the 6c, when that lute absorbs that mass to slow it down it also vibrates in various directions. What happens if we forbid it to move in one axis or another, like say, we brace it against a table top? It rings longer. Maybe that table will absorb part of the energy and we get to hear a little more but the majority stays w/ the lute due the mass difference. We can do that experiment, too. Place the bottom edge against a light table (forbidding motion in the up-and- down axis) and then a marble table and you can actually hear the difference. Another point of dissipation is, as above, the other strings moving in _nearly_ sympathetic vibration. The key word is that 'nearly'. This is where meantone starts to play its part. Let's save that for later. Sean On Nov 20, 2011, at 11:48 AM, Edward Mast wrote: Sean's point is interesting. Whether unison or octave tuning on the 6th course (or above) might well depend on whether gut or synthetic strings are used. I've never been comfortable with octave stringing above the 7th course of my 8 course instrument since I often play thumb-index on the 6th as well as the higher courses (sometimes in solo literature, but especially in ensemble music). I prefer the sound of unisons when played t-i. Were I to go to gut, I might find that I would need to go to octave tuning, and have to learn to accustom myself to that sound, and/or alter my technique. On Nov 20, 2011, at 2:13 PM, Sean Smith wrote: Bill That's a good question and we should all get a chance to listen to the experiment. I did and from my experience a unison-strung 6c is pretty clunky to play. When you have two ropey gut 6th course basses side by side you run into intonation (and buzzing) problems and it's pretty difficult to get a good tone playing both w/ a thumb. It also gets difficult to finger on the left hand. To my ear it becomes muddy. As I understand it, playing with octaves you should play the fundamental and brush the octave (simultaineously) as a habit so the ear hears the bass note correctly and still unconsciously digests the overtones keeping the sound bright and light. This is only my interpretation of it over the years. Sean On Nov 20, 2011, at 10:53 AM, William Samson wrote: Certainly, Ed. But how many vihuelas do we see nowadays in these configurations? In fact I wonder if there's a single one that isn't set up with unisons throughout and a double first? We're very conservative (with a small 'c') when it comes to pushing the envelope. I wonder if there was any
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Hi Arto, This doesn't answer your question but I had a bass lute built w/ a double chanterelle and found that it creates a slightly different paradigm. We're so used to the single chanterelle singing that it just becomes normal to our ears. The double, otoh, sounds like an extension of the 2nd course and, as such, more integrated w/ the other strings. It wouldn't be my first choice for a broken consort division lute or Borono's dance music but it sounds great in polyphonic compositions where you don't want to get distracted by the top string taking the attention. Since Simon Gintzler came up the other day, I'll just say that as a top shelf lutenist, his ricercars and settings are perfect for this. Then again, I haven't had a chance to try broken consort music w/ a double ch. so maybe I'd be pleasantly surprised. If you do try it please get back to us with your impressions. best wishes, Sean On Nov 19, 2011, at 8:10 AM, wikla wrote: Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Caravaggio al frodo! Doesn't The Hobbit start out w/ a motley crew (no umlauts) of dwarves having a party at Bilbo's house w/ lots of lutes and things? Looking at the Wiki article (thanks Ed!), one of the 3 versions of this appears to be a 7c and the other two are 6c's --all doubled top strings. Good news for Arto. Sean On Nov 19, 2011, at 3:48 PM, William Samson wrote: Mystery solved - Neither man nor woman, but hobbit: [1]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTijRxDsyaGkEGqjRpoAOsMXJlfU uB12mGMD6v6BPdZVNmmvHcpGyTZ4DcK1w From: Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:45 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? My favorite painting of all time... To my surprise, I've heard the lute player referred to as a boy. Is that correct? I've always fancied her as female... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: William Samson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:23 PM To: wikla ; [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? And another (6c this time!) from Caravaggio [1][3]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.j pg Bill From: wikla [4]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTijRxDsyaGkEGqjRpoAOsMXJlfUuB12mGMD6v6BPdZVNmmvHcpGyTZ4DcK1w 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 4. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
That's right, viols. They carried viols around in a sack? I remember wondering that waay back when, too. Orey Norey: Personally I think should have plastic nose flutes and recit their names while they play. s On Nov 19, 2011, at 4:52 PM, Garry Warber wrote: Thoren has a harp, plus some viols, and perhaps Orey and Norey have recorder/flutes? Ben a bit since I read it, but winter is a-comin' in... -Original Message- From: Sean Smith Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 7:23 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Caravaggio al frodo! Doesn't The Hobbit start out w/ a motley crew (no umlauts) of dwarves having a party at Bilbo's house w/ lots of lutes and things? Looking at the Wiki article (thanks Ed!), one of the 3 versions of this appears to be a 7c and the other two are 6c's --all doubled top strings. Good news for Arto. Sean On Nov 19, 2011, at 3:48 PM, William Samson wrote: Mystery solved - Neither man nor woman, but hobbit: [1]http://t1.gstatic.com/images? q=tbn:ANd9GcTijRxDsyaGkEGqjRpoAOsMXJlfU uB12mGMD6v6BPdZVNmmvHcpGyTZ4DcK1w From: Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:45 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? My favorite painting of all time... To my surprise, I've heard the lute player referred to as a boy. Is that correct? I've always fancied her as female... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: William Samson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:23 PM To: wikla ; [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? And another (6c this time!) from Caravaggio [1][3]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.j pg Bill From: wikla [4]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTijRxDsyaGkEGqjRpoAOsMXJlfUuB12mGMD6v6BPdZVNmmvHcpGyTZ4DcK1w 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 4. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: cold finger tips
Excellent question, Dick, and one that _should_ come up from time to time. This drives me up the wall, too. I blame it on nerves. ...and temperature. Dress warmly. It's initially helpful to run your hands under warm water but it really doesn't take the chill out of nervously constricting blood vessels and it's not always possible. Those loose- fitting, wonderful-looking shirts --or any other thin material (esp. synthetics)-- never work for me if it further misdirects blood flow. Make sure your torso is comfortable and maybe even on the warm side. If your cotton teeshirt or other warmy underneath shows and you don't like it, cut a slit from the neck down as necessary and make it your dedicated lute under-tee. Wear two if necessary and then your fancy schmancy shirt. Thick cotton socks and comfy shoes are always my first choice as well because toes mimic hands. Deportment. If it all possible don't balance on one foot w/ the legs crossed. Both feet flat and stable creates a stronger structure and doesn't add to your body's subconscious sense of uncertainty. Moving to a strap helped me immeasurably. The lute is difficult enough to hold convincingly without having to stay stock still for a loong nervous moment. Now I can enjoy a straight back, breath naturally, hold the lute as comfortably as a good beer, see comfortably (head not cocked) and engage my listeners (should I be so lucky) --even ocassionally tap my foot without the lute bobbing up and down. And stand when necessary. About synthetics, I honestly don't understand the mechanics but if my skin is rebelling against polyester/acrylic/etc anywhere, some part of my skin, somewhere, will sweat. The system's first choice, it seems, are those nervous fingers. And what Ed Martin wrote ;^) Sean On Nov 13, 2011, at 7:53 AM, Dick Brook wrote: Hi Netters I'm interested in any remedies for cold finger tips, which I invariably get when I play a gig in a cold room. Very frustrating-fingerless gloves? chemicals?, Holding a cup of tea an hour before? Any suggestion appreciated. Dick Brook richa...@ptd.net To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Palindrome alert
Haha - And it's an anniversary day as I (very carefully) proposed at 11:11. ...11 + 11 years ago! s On Nov 10, 2011, at 4:57 PM, G.R. Crona wrote: 11-11-11 ;) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Palindrome alert
I have a lute whose strings go to eleven but I suppose a lot of people on this list do. s On Nov 10, 2011, at 6:03 PM, howard posner wrote: Christopher Stetson wrote: It also has been declared by someone to be Nigel Tufnel Day, after the member of Spinal Tap with the special amplifier which has eleven. For the few who might not know the bit: Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and... Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten? Nigel Tufnel: Exactly. Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder? Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where? Marty DiBergi: I don't know. Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do? Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven. Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder. Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder? Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Capirola!
Oh, this is beautiful! Many thanks to everyone who helped make this happen! Sean On Nov 8, 2011, at 5:17 AM, heiman.dan...@juno.com wrote: As of today, there is a digital facsimile of the Capirola lutebook on line in a marvelous presentation, full color! http://ricercar.cesr.univ-tours.fr/3-programmes/EMN/luth/pages/actualites.asp Regards, Daniel To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pictorially very off topic
Wolfgang, This is a very satisfying couple of pieces played together. Your recording is well-played, too! I opened a concert with them last May and thought they worked nicely. (Yes, I credited you on the program ;^) cheers from young California, Sean On Nov 7, 2011, at 1:43 PM, wolfgang wiehe wrote: thanks dan edward! this piece of music comes directly from my heart. I found it some years ago in the wroclav ms 352. isn´t it nice? It took my attention by its broken style structure and I think it´s from marco dall aquila or directly influenced by him.I wrote a little paper of all in te domine intabulations for the LSA quaterly some years ago. recently paul o´dette did a recording of marco dall aquila with this piece at the of his cd (did he read my paper???). greetings Wolfgang p.s. you can download my paper at: http://www.esnips.com/displayimage.php?album=710702pid=5879774#top_disp lay_media I use nylgut on my 7-c-lute. my lute was built by renatus lechner in 2003, a wonderful instrument (after gerle) the woodcuts are from a decamerone-print of 1542 by giolito/venezia, which I owned. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Cuts and burns on fingertips.
I have the dubious honor of working every day around a lot of razor blades, getting to chip away at lots of materials and even playing with fire, torches and acetone (tho not all at the same time, to OSHA's delight). It can be humbling. On the other hand, ahem, lutenists should learn to respect their hands as much as their instruments. Ie, Be Careful. Build up those Eye-Hand skills that sees the hand as much as the object. Of course, the inevitable does happen --as it always does. Keep thin plastic band-aids around. I've found I can still play well enough w/ a cut on a left finger tip with a band-aid over it. Burns, too. Try to do without gauze if possible. If the cut is recent, you're at risk of it opening and you may not realize it till you've colorfully decorated the neck and strings --I'd do w/out stringed instruments that day --at least. Sean On Nov 5, 2011, at 2:49 PM, Edward Mast wrote: I haven't tried this, but I wonder if one could play with surgical gloves on?? On Nov 5, 2011, at 4:43 PM, Herbert Ward wrote: Does anyone have a way to cover cuts on the fingertips, so that one could resume playing earlier in the healing process than would otherwise be possible? I tried New-Skin liquid bandage, but it does not dry stiff enough to do much good. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: strumming Gervaise
It's nice on the R guitar when the 4-part harmonies work but that is pretty rare. These bransles work best if the rhythm is accented rather than the harmonies so I'd find a strum that works about twice a measure and make sure a melody on the top works. For variation I'd rob from the alto or tenor lines and put them up an 8ve if that worked after the rhythm is established. And don't worry too much about the inversions except on important down beats. Even then It's fun to get the guitar moving as it pulls the lutenist's ear away from the relentless perfect harmonies. ;^) Sean On Nov 1, 2011, at 2:22 AM, Stuart Walsh wrote: : I think they're doable on lute plucked as usual although a ren guitar or a cittern would be more suitable for strumming, IMHO. Sean Thanks Sean and Benny. I actually meant ren guitar or cittern (I don't have either!). I was wondering exactly which chords would be strummed - for example in the two tunes http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Gervaise/ If you put a chord to each note on the bass line (easy to do) you sometimes would have to make extremely quick chord changes (which would be very difficult to do). Anyway, maybe this idea of putting a chord to a bass note is a continuo concept and not applicable to the 1550s? When Leroy made arrangements of some of these Gervaise tunes he got rid of the four-part harmony. The late James Tyler claimed that you could play the Leroy arrangements along with the four-part arrangements. But you would have to be making adjustments to the guitar part all the time. So I still wonder what chords an average strummer (four-course guitar or cittern)would actually play - for example on the tunes I uploaded. I could imagine that a modern folk guitarist would just look at the tune or just listen to it and come up with some chords which are both playable and more or less fit the melody (but not fit as closely as four-part harmony). But that would be what a modern folk player might do, and I wonder what a chordal instrument player might have done then. Stuart On Oct 31, 2011, at 3:56 PM, Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: How would a strummer strum chords to these tunes composed (arranged?) by Gervaise in the 1550s? http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Gervaise/ They are strong melodies (Poulenc arranged some Gervaise dances for piano - but not these particular tunes). Maybe you just strum a chord according to the bass line. It's easy enough to work out what each chord would be. But playing at speed it would be formidably difficult to actually play them unless you were a Freddy Green-type professional. These Gervaise arrangements are in four parts and, as it stands, the bass is very easy to play as a single note. But really not so easy at all when the chords are changing very quickly. But it's often said that strummers strummed in these, and even earlier, times. And, if so, surely they would have strummed to accompany tunes like this. Would they have strummed a chord for each note as dictated by the rules of four part harmony? Or something simpler - but potentially more rhythmic? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: strumming Gervaise
I think they're doable on lute plucked as usual although a ren guitar or a cittern would be more suitable for strumming, IMHO. Sean On Oct 31, 2011, at 3:56 PM, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: How would a strummer strum chords to these tunes composed (arranged?) by Gervaise in the 1550s? http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Gervaise/ They are strong melodies (Poulenc arranged some Gervaise dances for piano - but not these particular tunes). Maybe you just strum a chord according to the bass line. It's easy enough to work out what each chord would be. But playing at speed it would be formidably difficult to actually play them unless you were a Freddy Green-type professional. These Gervaise arrangements are in four parts and, as it stands, the bass is very easy to play as a single note. But really not so easy at all when the chords are changing very quickly. But it's often said that strummers strummed in these, and even earlier, times. And, if so, surely they would have strummed to accompany tunes like this. Would they have strummed a chord for each note as dictated by the rules of four part harmony? Or something simpler - but potentially more rhythmic? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: John Danyel
Metal strings, maybe? As in a small bandora? I suppose it would look like a tenor orpharion but I don't see any reason not to tune one like a bandora. Sean On Oct 25, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: My guess is that the general pitch at this period was around a tone lower than modern, so a G lute may have been around 67cm string length. I think one of the songs uses a bass lute in (nominal) D, so this may have been quite a big beast. The strange tuning used for The Leaves be Green is a kind of conceit (first pointed out by Tony Rooley many years ago - starting with a nominal G lute, the only courses which have *not* been changed in tuning are A and G, standing for Anne Greene. If nominal G lute means starting with the 1st course in G, then there is no A course with Danyel's tuning. 9c G-lute: G4 - D4 - A3 - F3 - C3 - G2 || F2 - Eb2 - C2 Danyel: G4 - D4 - Bb3 - F3 - Bb2 - Ab2 || F2 - Eb2 - Bb1 If your guess is right, that the general pitch at this period was around a tone lower than modern, that would cause problems with the lowest course even on a big beast, or so I should guess. The fundamental would simply be too thick a string. The only solution that I can think of would be loaded guts. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Music Online
Searching under guitar will bring up the 4 Adrian LeRoy / Gregoire Brayssing renaissance guitar books. Thank you, Arthur and Kakinami-san, for this great source! Sean On Aug 14, 2011, at 5:54 AM, T.Kakinami wrote: Many thanks. There are 32 lute related materials. Kakinami. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of A. J. Ness Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 7:10 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Lute Music Online In Progress. Search on lute [1]http://www.earlymusiconline.org/ And thanks to a colleague in the UK who tipped me off. -- References 1. http://www.earlymusiconline.org/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute Music Online
Lauri Niskanan on the Lute-Ning page kindly gave a very nice little tutorial for batch-downloading a book and w/ his permission (and addendum at 7b) I reprent it here. If you use Firefox (and if you don't, um... I dunno what plug-in to use for other browsers) - 1. Get Firefox 2. Tools - Add-ons 3. In Get Add-ons, write downthemall! in the search field 4. Select DownThemAll! and click add to firefox 5. On any web page, in this case on the page where you see links to resources and the thumbnails, right click anywhere [Mac users: Ctrl +click], select DownThemAll! in the dropdown menu. 6. Select a folder to save the images in. Since the program saves individual images, you should make a folder per tablature book to better organize the files. 7. Under Filters, select JPEG images 7b. You should click disable other filters in the bottom right corner, so it doesn't download anything extra. 8. Under Fast Filtering, write */file/* (The images we want are the ones that have /file/ in their URL) 9. Under Download, you will now see links in red with selection marks before them, those ones will be downloaded. 10. Click Start! --- It just worked fine for me on the Mac and I don't see how it wouldn't work cross-platformly. Credit for this goes to Lauri for the instructions! Yay! more music! Sean On Aug 14, 2011, at 12:33 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Arthur, Thanks for the link. There's some really interesting stuff there! I didn't see a way to download files, though. Can one only view them? Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of A. J. Ness Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 7:10 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Lute Music Online In Progress. Search on lute [1]http://www.earlymusiconline.org/ And thanks to a colleague in the UK who tipped me off. -- References 1. http://www.earlymusiconline.org/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Galilei lute works
This is an amazing source. V. Galilei could apparently write a galliard or variation as easily as we could fill in a daily crossword puzzle. I think I counted 200 variations on the Romanesca in every conceivable key (or for every size lute all in the same key) and the galliards are wonderful. Vincenzo writes in a clearly legible hand (i- tab, of course) although there is some unfortunate water damage making some passages difficult though not impossible. It also includes an informative introduction by Orlando Cristoforetti in Italian and English. Being a SPES edition it's relatively inexpensive. Sean On Aug 6, 2011, at 7:25 AM, A. J. Ness wrote: A bit more, Benny. The edition cited by Stephen contains gagliarde from an important Galilei dance source, an immense manuscript compiled by him perhaps in anticipation of additional printed tablatures. It contains clean copies of 275 pieces! Libro d'Intauolatura di liuto . . . composte in diuersi tempi da Vincentio Galilei scritto l'anno 1584, Ms. Fondo anteriori di Galileo 6, in the Biblioteca nationale centrale in Florence. There is a facsimile edition, edited by Orlando Christoforetti (Florence: S.P.E.S, 1991). The gagliarde published by Giulia Perni come from part three of the manuscript and have descriptive titles, e.g., Polymnia (the muse of sacred music--used in Respighi's Ancient Airs and Dances), Amarilli, Clio, Calliope, etc. There is a second section of gagliarde by Autori diversi, but no composer attributions are given; many of the pieces are by Santino Garsi da Parma, however. Otherwise the manuscript contains passamezzos, romanescas, and saltarellos, most with many virtuoso varied reprises. AJN - Original Message - From: [1]be...@interlog.com To: LuteNet list [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 11:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Galilei lute works Thanks, folks! BCS Quoting Stephen Arndt [3]stephenar...@earthlink.net: I found this in our local music library a few years ago and rather liked it: Le gagliarde dal Libro d'intavolatura di liuto (Gal; 6): edizione critica con intavolature per liuto e con trascrizione in notazione moderna Responsibility Vincenzo Galilei; a cura di Giulia Perni Publication Info Publication Information: Pisa: Edizioni ETS, (c)2000 -Original Message- From: [4]be...@interlog.com Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 11:41 AM To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] Galilei lute works Hi, folks - a couple questions about Galilei lute works: Is the Primo Libro D'intavolatura di Liuto the only collection of his stuff, or did he write more? I've got the Edizioni Suvini Zerboni of this book - found it in the Toronto library. Would anyone know how where I might go to find my own copy? Thank - hope everyone is enjoying the summer - BCS To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:be...@interlog.com 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:stephenar...@earthlink.net 4. mailto:be...@interlog.com 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tuner re's
Ooops! But you will need a microphone. Meritline sells one for $2 that is essentially a little button that plugs into the earphones slot. http://www.meritline.com/apple-mini-microphone-mic-recorder---p-37453.aspx You don't need the phone. The Cleartune tuner is downloadable to any iPad Touch. You may be able to pick up a used 1st or 2nd generation for fairly cheap at this point. Sean On Aug 5, 2011, at 6:55 AM, R. Mattes wrote: On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 09:22:13 -0400, Garry Warber wrote Thank you all... I only discovered electronic-tuner handiness from my grandson when he used his app on his I-phone last month. I personally do not have a cell phone, by choice. But you can use the 'cell phone' just as an excellent digital tuner. And with Android systems in the range of 90$ plus 4$ for ClearTune you're still at appr. half the price of a Violab tuner. So, if I'm getting this, any 440 tuner would work by tuning every course a full step low, then do a mind trick of telling yourself it's regular lute tuning? For example my lute would become, low to high, C, E-flat, F,B-flat, E-flat, G, C, F, which I would then convince myself it's still D, F, G, C, F, A, D, G in a=392? Wow... Perhaps just staying at a=415 is just fine... Kind of: 392 (well, 391.9...) is one tempered whole step below 440. But I find it anoying to transpose while tuning. And that -only_ works for equal temprament. In pythagorean the whole step below 440 is at 384 etc. HTH Ralf Mattes Garry -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[LUTE] Saltarello secondo della Duchessa and La Pistrinara
I've been spending a little time in the Intabulatura di Lauto del [FdM] et PPBorrono, Libro secondo, 1546, Venice and I'm curious about the first suite. La Duchessa is the 2nd of 3 saltarellos that follow La Borroncina (a self reference to PPB? eg, Il Gorzanis) and also appears in the Pacaloni trios. The passemezo and other saltarellos are loose variations on it giving me the idea that it may be a signature dance piece for PPB. Any further information on the piece (or book) would be appreciated. Any idea who la Duchessa may be? An unexpected link from Pacaloni to the LeRoy guitar books surfaced in the Saltarello, La Pistrinara. It appears to be a reworking of the guitar song O combien est (Certon) and the melody is carried in the Superius. As usual for Pacaloni, the chords are a little off but it possibly argues for the Pacaloni Superius to be an A lute --or G lute if we tune our guitars to G. This would argue for Stewart's suggestion of a low trio for Pacaloni. Speaking of the low tuning, recently we've been playing Pacaloni as duos w/ a bass cittern tuned to C for the Bassus parts and the Superius on a G lute. Very impressive and a big sound for only two of us! I get the feeling from the flavor of the dances that PPB is somewhat connected to it despite Pac's late date. Any ideas on that? And the $.64 question: What is a la pistrinara? many thanks in advance, Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saltarello secondo della Duchessa and La Pistrinara
Thanks, Donna. It hadn't come up in the translate things and had to make sure s On Jul 29, 2011, at 5:45 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: Hi, Sean - Donna here, with my sixty four cents' worth. According to the 1611 Florio's, a 'pistrina' is a bake-house or mill, and a 'pistrinaro' is a miller, or baker. 'Pistrinara' doesn't merit a mention, but you can probably figure it out. Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 16:57:26 -0700 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: lutesm...@mac.com Subject: [LUTE] Saltarello secondo della Duchessa and La Pistrinara I've been spending a little time in the Intabulatura di Lauto del [FdM] et PPBorrono, Libro secondo, 1546, Venice and I'm curious about the first suite. La Duchessa is the 2nd of 3 saltarellos that follow La Borroncina (a self reference to PPB? eg, Il Gorzanis) and also appears in the Pacaloni trios. The passemezo and other saltarellos are loose variations on it giving me the idea that it may be a signature dance piece for PPB. Any further information on the piece (or book) would be appreciated. Any idea who la Duchessa may be? An unexpected link from Pacaloni to the LeRoy guitar books surfaced in the Saltarello, La Pistrinara. It appears to be a reworking of the guitar song O combien est (Certon) and the melody is carried in the Superius. As usual for Pacaloni, the chords are a little off but it possibly argues for the Pacaloni Superius to be an A lute --or G lute if we tune our guitars to G. This would argue for Stewart's suggestion of a low trio for Pacaloni. Speaking of the low tuning, recently we've been playing Pacaloni as duos w/ a bass cittern tuned to C for the Bassus parts and the Superius on a G lute. Very impressive and a big sound for only two of us! I get the feeling from the flavor of the dances that PPB is somewhat connected to it despite Pac's late date. Any ideas on that? And the $.64 question: What is a la pistrinara? many thanks in advance, Sean To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: colliding strings
I think I know how she solved her problem of colliding strings. On Jul 22, 2011, at 1:31 PM, Peter Nightingale wrote: Van Lennep may have also struck a compromise based on the size of the hands of lutenist for whom he made the instrument originally, and who sold it to me when she had had enough of luting. Peter. On Sat, 23 Jul 2011, Ed Durbrow wrote: You have articulated the conundrum. Joel van Lennep is probably basing his instruments on historical instruments. Spacing on historical instruments is sometimes impossible for us moderns. We might collectively be missing something. Either they had some string technology we are not aware of or they liked twang or they played very lightly near the bridge. Who knows? I'll dig out my archlute and see what the spacing is. Again, I had the bridge re-drilled on it to give me more space on the double courses. On Jul 22, 2011, at 11:32 PM, Peter Nightingale wrote: Ed, Suzanne, Roman, Alexander, ... Thanks for your suggestions. I remain confused by colliding strings and ditto realities. I cannot believe that Joel van Lennep would make an instrument with the design flaws your comments imply. Could it be that my lute does not live up to your expectations, because it is a 14 course archlute. (BTW, Suzanne seems to have a space problem too.) The courses have to be close together for the instrument to be playable, it would seem. The distance between the string of the 6th and 7th courses is is roughly 4mm, 8mm, and 4mm. If pairs of the individual courses were to be 5mm apart, this would become 5mm, 6mm, 5mm. It would introduce a 6.5th course, a revolutionary design! My guess is that the compromise that was made tries to avoid the the clanging disaster by creating more space at the nut. Actually, there is more: the octave strings are slightly closer to the sound board than the fundamentals in both courses. Thanks again, Peter. the next auto-quote is: A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. (Albert Einstein) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ the next auto-quote is: Operationally, God is beginning to resemble not a ruler but the last fading smile of a cosmic Cheshire Cat. (Julian Huxley) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881
[LUTE] A question about Bakfark's lute music
Dear Eugene, As Jacob H's name was brought up I'd recommend the Josquin CD instead (or as well). One of Bakfark's finest settings is there and it's interesting to hear how Bakfark differed from others when intabulating similar material. For example, Simon Gintzler's and Albert deRippe's styles are very different but equally successful and may lead you to see the mid-16th century intabulation process in a new light. best wishes, Sean On Jul 1, 2011, at 9:44 AM, Eugene Kurenko wrote: G. Crona, Eugene and Alan thanks a lot for yours replies! It helps very much! Alan (who's only dared to tackle 'Si grand e la pieta' - I can send you the tab I used in a lesson with JH, complete with his fingerings sustains) Oh I'll be happy to get this tab if it's possible. Please! Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sopranlute
Thank you, Martin. 88cm. I've never seen a 6-c that long but that doesn't mean much. If someone really wanted one in the 16th century I'm sure some builder was happy to oblige. My bass lute is a meagre 72cm which I push down to a D and I have an E at 68cm so I'm almost ready to go. I should have an A lute but don't mind the small rewrite necessary to press the ren guitar into service instead. As you well know, no-one plays Pacaloni without it being edited first. We just played some Pacaloni and followed it with complementary custom settings of the 266 and Diversi Autori versions of La Traditora. Between the two of us we got to pull out a lot of instruments and some of it wasn't what was advertised on the tin. Then there was the Mazolo(DA) trio'd for r. guitar, diatonic cittern and harp. Such great --and fun-- music: it's hard to imagine it didn't spill out to other instruments or hadn't been for others before. I (self-servedly) believe that any of these early dance books were merely jumping off points for the enterprising lutenist considering all those overlapping dances from the 1540's and then all those zillions of Anticoes from the '50's to the '80's. I've Fronimoed at least a 100 variations for a similar 'currently-coasting' project. Do blow the dust off the Pacaloni edits and perhaps consider letting the UK LS put it out. (Or maybe offer it as a complementary set when someone orders a Pacaloni trio of instruments from you!). We might even have a few that you didn't edit yet. It would be a nice addition to the Lynda Sayce editions of the Phalese duets and get more other- size lutes into play. Sean On Jun 3, 2011, at 2:26 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Hi Sean, There's no reckoning involved - it's just nice if you can get hold of the instrument, but it does need to be c.88cm. The D, E, A combination is easier to obtain and does work well. Often a lute of about 67cm will tune happily to E. I think there's no doubt the Pacoloni we have is somewhat removed from the original, though of course it's impossible to know whether the original was any less incompetent in the matter of root position chords when they should be first inversions, and so on. (the classic case, which happens over and over again, is C major harmony where one lute has an E in the bass, harmonized as root position, i.e. E minor). The nature of the arrangements is interesting. Many pieces seem to have what amounts to a solo in the Tenor part (e.g. the Tant que vivray set) with the Superius providing a descant. You're absolutely right that some of the pieces can work as duets or have other parts added. Many years ago I edited a substantial chunk of this material but never got around to publishing it. Let me know if you're interested to have any of it for playing with the addition of double- slide music stand, bagpipe, etc. Best wishes, Martin On 02/06/2011 17:51, Sean Smith wrote: That's very interesting, Martin. What is the reckoning behind the bass lute in C? How long is that?! It probably sounds very impressive but I think the trios can sound pretty strong in most ranges. I'll agree, the small lute in d is pretty shrill but in a dance situation it would cut through the stomping on hardwood floors, gabbing gossipers and, possibly, the scraping of plates. I've often wondered if Pacaloni was offering a set of books that could be used in ensembles for _as many as_ three lutes and _also_ (though tacitly) in a variety of tunings and combinations (as did Hume although he was more forethcoming about the variety) ie, he was writing for many possibilities. Many, if not all, can work as duos and the upper parts can even function as solos w/ a little raiding of other parts for divisions or structure. With the addition of the Viaera cittern parts the instrumental possibilities again expand. For us, that expanded yet again w/ the addition of a bass cittern into the mix. Then yet yet again, the books come about fairly late and they may even have been pirated from his notes or ...who knows? There's a lot of guesswork in Pacaloni and I'm afraid I use it to the advantage of whichever instruments are around. Or we feel like tuning up. Or humans to play them. Or what key we want to be in. On the subject of the descant lute though. I must confess that I enjoy playing it for solo rep. There's an awful lot that doesn't work on it (haha, Bakfark! Suzanne! Dowland!) but there's plenty that does. And it's so delightfully portable! best wishes, Sean On Jun 2, 2011, at 7:52 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Hi All, The Tieffenbrucker (WE = Wendelin Eberle?) lute which everyone makes a version of is actually 44cm. I agree with Sean, it is possible to tune it to d'' at modern pitch with nylon strings, but it is the equivalent of tuning your 59cm G lute up to a', so not recommended. Last year I finally did
[LUTE] Re: Sopranlute
Short answer, Anton: There are plenty of duos for 4th apart. and there are plenty of duos for 5th apart. There has been little to no information about how to pitch the smaller instrument --or even the larger. Specify which and your playing audience will find the instruments. I find 4th apart to be very useful. In the 1990's there was an American builder who built quite a few Tieffenbrucker descant copies at a 43cm mensur. There don't seem to be any other models to build from. Unfortunately that length is just a little long for a D instrument and although it will reach with a nylon topstring it sounds shrill to my ears. With few people having an F lute this has been the defacto descant in D for the Pacaloni trios. The Vallet quartets demand two instruments an octave apart so the descant must be a D. When we found a shorter descant (40cm) the shrill factor decreased considerably and we use the Tieffenbrucker in C where it is considerably happier. F-tenor and C-descant make a very good 5th apart pair, too. Ed Martin has a collection of vihuelas including a descant. I'd be curious as to its length, tuning and topstring. Ed? Best wishes and thanks for all the music! Sean On Jun 2, 2011, at 3:07 AM, Anton Höger wrote: hi, is the tuning for the Sopran lute in c or d? I mean the open highest string of the sopran lute? Thanks Aton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sopranlute
Thanks, Ed! Glad to see you and the buddies are putting some mileage on them! I'd love to be locked in a room with them (the vihuelas) for a few days! cheers, Sean On Jun 2, 2011, at 7:50 AM, Edward Martin wrote: Sean and all, We use the vihuelas by 2 means... my new group, the Chambure Vihuela Quartet uses all 4 instruments together. See: http://www.chamburequartet.com/ This is for all 4 vihuelas. The 4 chambure vihuelas were built in 2004, for the Valderrabano duets. See: http://magnatune.com/artists/duo_chambure The instruments are: 64 cm in F 59 cm in G 50 cm in Bb 45 cm in c See: http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/a-set-of-matching-vihuelas/ This article will tell you everything you would want to know about voicing and pitches for the vihuelas. In the Valderrabano duets, for a minor third apart, we used the 59 (G) and 50 cm (Bb) vihuelas. For the fourth apart, we used, 50 (Bb) and 64 (F)cm. For a fifth apart, we used the 64 cm (F) and 45 cm (c) instruments. Top strings are .42 sized - all strung in gut, at a = 440. Phil Rukavina and I will be performing the Valderrabano duets in Gijon, Spain in July. See: http://www.sociedaddelavihuela.com/en/ ed At 09:10 AM 6/2/2011, Sean Smith wrote: Short answer, Anton: There are plenty of duos for 4th apart. and there are plenty of duos for 5th apart. There has been little to no information about how to pitch the smaller instrument --or even the larger. Specify which and your playing audience will find the instruments. I find 4th apart to be very useful. In the 1990's there was an American builder who built quite a few Tieffenbrucker descant copies at a 43cm mensur. There don't seem to be any other models to build from. Unfortunately that length is just a little long for a D instrument and although it will reach with a nylon topstring it sounds shrill to my ears. With few people having an F lute this has been the defacto descant in D for the Pacaloni trios. The Vallet quartets demand two instruments an octave apart so the descant must be a D. When we found a shorter descant (40cm) the shrill factor decreased considerably and we use the Tieffenbrucker in C where it is considerably happier. F-tenor and C-descant make a very good 5th apart pair, too. Ed Martin has a collection of vihuelas including a descant. I'd be curious as to its length, tuning and topstring. Ed? Best wishes and thanks for all the music! Sean On Jun 2, 2011, at 3:07 AM, Anton Höger wrote: hi, is the tuning for the Sopran lute in c or d? I mean the open highest string of the sopran lute? Thanks Aton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Sopranlute
That's very interesting, Martin. What is the reckoning behind the bass lute in C? How long is that?! It probably sounds very impressive but I think the trios can sound pretty strong in most ranges. I'll agree, the small lute in d is pretty shrill but in a dance situation it would cut through the stomping on hardwood floors, gabbing gossipers and, possibly, the scraping of plates. I've often wondered if Pacaloni was offering a set of books that could be used in ensembles for _as many as_ three lutes and _also_ (though tacitly) in a variety of tunings and combinations (as did Hume although he was more forethcoming about the variety) ie, he was writing for many possibilities. Many, if not all, can work as duos and the upper parts can even function as solos w/ a little raiding of other parts for divisions or structure. With the addition of the Viaera cittern parts the instrumental possibilities again expand. For us, that expanded yet again w/ the addition of a bass cittern into the mix. Then yet yet again, the books come about fairly late and they may even have been pirated from his notes or ...who knows? There's a lot of guesswork in Pacaloni and I'm afraid I use it to the advantage of whichever instruments are around. Or we feel like tuning up. Or humans to play them. Or what key we want to be in. On the subject of the descant lute though. I must confess that I enjoy playing it for solo rep. There's an awful lot that doesn't work on it (haha, Bakfark! Suzanne! Dowland!) but there's plenty that does. And it's so delightfully portable! best wishes, Sean On Jun 2, 2011, at 7:52 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Hi All, The Tieffenbrucker (WE = Wendelin Eberle?) lute which everyone makes a version of is actually 44cm. I agree with Sean, it is possible to tune it to d'' at modern pitch with nylon strings, but it is the equivalent of tuning your 59cm G lute up to a', so not recommended. Last year I finally did the experiment - low tension, all gut strings in c'', and it suddenly sounded right. Sometimes we need to trust the historical evidence! Best wishes, Martin P.S. By the way, the correct way to play Pacoloni (no half measures) is bass in C, tenor in D, treble in G. But a tone higher than that is good (easier to find suitable instruments), and even F, G, C is good. Anything which involves regarding a G lute as a bass is a bit of a joke. On 02/06/2011 15:10, Sean Smith wrote: Short answer, Anton: There are plenty of duos for 4th apart. and there are plenty of duos for 5th apart. There has been little to no information about how to pitch the smaller instrument --or even the larger. Specify which and your playing audience will find the instruments. I find 4th apart to be very useful. In the 1990's there was an American builder who built quite a few Tieffenbrucker descant copies at a 43cm mensur. There don't seem to be any other models to build from. Unfortunately that length is just a little long for a D instrument and although it will reach with a nylon topstring it sounds shrill to my ears. With few people having an F lute this has been the defacto descant in D for the Pacaloni trios. The Vallet quartets demand two instruments an octave apart so the descant must be a D. When we found a shorter descant (40cm) the shrill factor decreased considerably and we use the Tieffenbrucker in C where it is considerably happier. F-tenor and C-descant make a very good 5th apart pair, too. Ed Martin has a collection of vihuelas including a descant. I'd be curious as to its length, tuning and topstring. Ed? Best wishes and thanks for all the music! Sean On Jun 2, 2011, at 3:07 AM, Anton Höger wrote: hi, is the tuning for the Sopran lute in c or d? I mean the open highest string of the sopran lute? Thanks Aton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Speaking of citterns....
Andrew Hartig has set up an all-things-cittern site at: http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/ have fun, Sean On May 27, 2011, at 2:14 PM, David Smith wrote: I understand that 16th century citterns had metal (wire?) frets built into the fingerboard rather than the tied-on frets used on lutes until much later. Is it known when metal frets started being used and what instruments they were used on? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
