Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Daverz;594719 Wrote: I've had a chance to use the Touch's digital volume control with a variety of equipment over the last several months. ... In my opinion, the digital volume control is as transparent, if not more so, than my pre-amp volume control (a BAT 3ix tube pre-amp). Frankly, I find the statement that opened this thread to be absolute nonsense. I don't know where the don't use more than 10 dB of attenuation idea mentioned by some comes from, either. I assume the PIOOYA method. You don't say how you used it, but I can tell you that setting the Touch's digital volume to like 30-40 to get quiet music leads to something that sounds only slightly like the original, while leaving it at 100 and setting the analog volume controls on my preamps way down does nothing of the sort. So, frankly, I find your absolutist statement to be just as much nonsense as the statement you are objecting to. -- ncarver ncarver's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15905 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
ncarver;595022 Wrote: You don't say how you used it, but I can tell you that setting the Touch's digital volume to like 30-40 to get quiet music leads to something that sounds like a pale imitation of the original, while leaving it at 100 and setting the analog volume controls on my preamps way down does nothing of the sort. So, frankly, I find your statement--with no qualifications--to be just as much nonsense as the statement you are objecting to. Sorry I didn't say anything about the range of use. Using the Neko DAC (which has a 1V output) as source and the 23 dB gain setting of the Bryston 3B-SST, a comfortable range for serious listening, mostly to classical music, is about 75 +/- 15 on the Touch volume, depending on the recording, while late evening listening might dip down to 45 or so. If the volume is too low at 100% for the rare recording, I can switch the Bryston to 29 dB gain. -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
I guess I ranted a bit because I felt the whole red herring about how evil DVC is was hugely unhelpful. -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
I've had a chance to use the Touch's digital volume control with a variety of equipment over the last several months. The DACs used are a Cambridge Audio 840C and a Neko D100. (I'll try to post more on the Neko in another thread. It's a very interesting DAC for those wanting to feed an amp directly.) The amps, which are fed directly, are a BAT VK-250 solid state amp, a Bryston 3B-SST, and now a pair of Rogue M-150 tube monoblocks I've borrowed for a few days. The speakers are Vandersteen Quatros. In my opinion, the digital volume control is as transparent, if not more so, than my pre-amp volume control (a BAT 3ix tube pre-amp). Frankly, I find the statement that opened this thread to be absolute nonsense. I don't know where the don't use more than 10 dB of attenuation idea mentioned by some comes from, either. I assume the PIOOYA method. By the way, with the Neko connected to the Rogues but no music playing I can hear nothing with my ear right over a tweeter. Rather amazing for a tube amp. -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Daverz;594719 Wrote: Frankly, I find the statement that opened this thread to be absolute nonsense. I don't know where the don't use more than 10 dB of attenuation idea mentioned by some comes from, either. Good for you.. -- michael123 michael123's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=23745 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
michael123;594727 Wrote: good for you.. +1 :) -- mswlogo Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 It's the speakers and room stupid. 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
This thread has got some track-shun! I got nothing. I ditched the digital volume control idea a while ago. Big fan of the Alps Blue Velvet. -- earwaxer9 System: modified Winsome Labs Mouse, modified Maggie MMG's, Transporter, HSU sub 12, MSB DAC to 500 watt sub slave amp, JPS labs power cords, Silver audio interconnect, Audioquest Granite speaker cable. earwaxer9's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39527 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Just decided to experiment with direct connection and I'm glad I did. Going direct instead of through my BAT 3iX tube pre-amp really wakes up my Vandersteen Quatros (I bought the BAT before I bought the Quatros). Going direct really brightens things up. But I have to attenuate at least 20dB to get to my preferred serious listening volume. I ordered a pair of Endler stepped attenuators for this. -- Daverz Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;544022 Wrote: When you turn it down in analog your noise floor goes down with it (for the most part). When you turn it down in digital it does not !! True (subject to the caveat pointed out by Phil). But the whole point I've been trying to get across is that if the noise floor starts out beneath the threshold of human hearing, it doesn't matter that it stays the same when you turn the volume down - you still can't hear it. mswlogo;544033 Wrote: Your saying the noise floor of the room is the limitation and I'm saying it's the DAC. In a simplistic way, I guess that about sums it up. Although my argument is more along the lines that the limitation is an attribute of the whole system: source material, playback devices (including the DAC, amp, speakers), room, and listener. I contend that of these components, the DAC is one of, if not *the*, least compromised component. mswlogo;544033 Wrote: You're also considering that floor as a discrete wall. It's not really, that's the problem. I'm well aware that it is possible to hear signal buried beneath noise. But actually the only discrete wall I've assumed is the threshold of hearing (0dB SPL), and I'm not aware of anyone who believes that a person can perceive anything below that level. All of the examples I've given throughout this thread have been based on an assumption that the listening room has a noise level of 0dB SPL, which is *very* friendly towards your point of view. When you factor in that a typical real-world listening room has an ambient level of at least 20dB SPL (most are more like 30dB SPL), then your argument is even less convincing. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
I've been thinking about Darren's comments on the DSP x-overs... I'm not sure of the block diagram of the Meridian DSP speakers, but with any multi-way speaker the driver sensitivities are usally different by a small number of dB. One of the benefits of (any form of) active crossover is that this can be taken care of - and response flattened - in the x-over at line level. Given that the DSP's have digital x-overs... and that a digital x-over (unlike an analogue one) cannot boost (0dB!)... IF the drivers need to be adjusted for relative sensitivity (which is almost certain) then there are 2 ways Meridian could do this: 1) by altering the relative ANALOGUE gain of the power amps, post x-over 2) reducing the level of all of them DIGITALLY by different amounts... If they used method 2... then regardless of what you put in, you won't get 96dB of SNR/Dynamic Range out on redbook material. Hypothetical example - let's say the bass and tweeter have sensitivities of 90dB but the midrange has one of 87dB. The Bass and Tweeter will need 3dB of attenuation. This is ignoring any additonal DSP (ie attenuation!) required to flatten the in-band frequency response of the individual drivers themselves. They could be using a hybrid approach with make-up gain in the analogue power amps as well as DSP attenuation. Therefore the problem/issue that mswlogo is describing may well be confined to / exacerbated by the Meridian implementation. This is all speculation - but it would explain the differences in opinion/findings in this thread! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;544239 Wrote: I've been thinking about Darren's comments on the DSP x-overs... I'm not sure of the block diagram of the Meridian DSP speakers, but with any multi-way speaker the driver sensitivities are usally different by a small number of dB. One of the benefits of (any form of) active crossover is that this can be taken care of - and response flattened - in the x-over at line level. Given that the DSP's have digital x-overs... and that a digital x-over (unlike an analogue one) cannot boost (0dB!)... IF the drivers need to be adjusted for relative sensitivity (which is almost certain) then there are 2 ways Meridian could do this: 1) by altering the relative ANALOGUE gain of the power amps, post x-over 2) reducing the level of some of them DIGITALLY by different amounts... If they used method 2... then regardless of what you put in, you won't get 96dB of SNR/Dynamic Range out on redbook material. Hypothetical example - let's say the bass and tweeter have sensitivities of 90dB but the midrange has one of 87dB. The Bass and Tweeter will need 3dB of attenuation. This is ignoring any additonal DSP (ie attenuation!) required to flatten the in-band frequency response of the individual drivers themselves. They could be using a hybrid approach with make-up gain in the analogue power amps as well as DSP attenuation. Therefore the problem/issue that mswlogo is describing may well be confined to/exacerbated by the Meridian implementation. This is all speculation - but it would explain the differences in opinion/findings in this thread! Exactly, thanks Phil. I think even with analogue boosting each crossover band, which is best case, you're still left with DSP EQ in-band - shifting bits down (in some or perhaps much of the frequency range). Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;544251 Wrote: Edit: I have said all this already but I'm not complaining. In fact I'm pleased that someone else has looked at it and come to similar conclusions - it means that I'm not going crazy! LOL. Darren Sorry - Darren - didn't mean to repeat you! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;544251 Wrote: Exactly, thanks Phil. I think even with analogue boosting each crossover band, which is best case, you're still left with DSP EQ in-band - shifting bits down (in some or perhaps much of the frequency range) - as you say. Edit: I have said all this already but I'm not complaining. In fact I'm pleased that someone else has looked at it and come to similar conclusions - it means that I'm not going crazy! LOL. Darren You guys are willing to grab at anything to explain this. I guess you missed the transporter test that doesn't exactly trounce the squeezebox, does it? Only slightly better. But I'm sure that's f'ked up too for some reason. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;544251 Wrote: Exactly, thanks Phil. I think even with analogue boosting each crossover band, which is best case, you're still left with DSP EQ in-band - shifting bits down (in some or perhaps much of the frequency range) - as you say. Edit: I have said all this already but I'm not complaining. In fact I'm pleased that someone else has looked at it and come to similar conclusions - it means that I'm not going crazy! LOL. Darren You guys are willing to grab at anything to explain this. I guess you missed the transporter test that doesn't exactly trounce the squeezebox, does it? Only slightly better. But I'm sure that's f'ked up too for some reason. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;544265 Wrote: You guys are willing to grab at anything to explain this. I guess you missed the transporter test that doesn't exactly trounce the squeezebox, does it? Only slightly better. But I'm sure that's f'ked up too for some reason. erm - I'm not trying to explain anything...I'm trying to get to the bottom of why you feel it so important not to attenuate anything digitally at all in YOUR setup, whilst other people (including me) have no issue with the concept, because they can't hear anything very bad happening. I'm pretty certain it isn't because you have golden ears or magic equipment or voodoo recordings! I'm doing some experiments with Omnia Sel Temperat from Carmina Burana - this is an incredibly quiet redbook recording, with a peak level of -33db! If I'm following you correctly, any attenuaton of this track would decimate it? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;544274 Wrote: erm - I'm not trying to explain anything...I'm trying to get to the bottom of why you feel it so important not to attenuate anything digitally at all in YOUR setup, whilst other people (including me) have no issue with the concept, because they can't hear anything very bad happening. I'm pretty certain it isn't because you have golden ears or magic equipment or voodoo recordings! I'm doing some experiments with Omnia Sel Temperat from Carmina Burana - this is an incredibly quiet redbook recording, with a peak level of -33db! If I'm following you correctly, any attenuaton of this track would decimate it? Thanks for trying. Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said, Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;544274 Wrote: erm - I'm not trying to explain anything...I'm trying to get to the bottom of why you feel it so important not to attenuate anything digitally at all in YOUR setup, whilst other people (including me) have no issue with the concept, because they can't hear anything very bad happening. I'm pretty certain it isn't because you have golden ears or magic equipment or voodoo recordings! I'm doing some experiments with Omnia Sel Temperat from Carmina Burana - this is an incredibly quiet redbook recording, with a peak level of -33db! If I'm following you correctly, any attenuaton of this track would decimate it? Thanks for trying. Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said, Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
http://www.mlssa.com/pdf/Upsampling-theory-rev-2.pdf Last para, page 4. There was some mention earlier of all bits not being equal... indeed not. It would seem in fact the best bits are not the MSB's, because they exhibit the most differential non-linearity (aka one form of digital distortion). So it would seem advisable to trade off some SNR for that distortion. After all we humans are highly tolerant of non-correlated broadband noise (Brahms/Band, hiss etc) and highly intolerant of any sort of digital (i.e. unnatural) distortion such as jitter or DNL. So maybe it is better to keep our peaks away from the MSB... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;544265 Wrote: I guess you missed the transporter test that doesn't exactly trounce the squeezebox, does it? Only slightly better. mswlogo, I was looking for that but I couldn't find it. Can you send a link please? Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;544284 Wrote: Thanks for trying. Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said, Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max. Yeah, probably because the DSP crossovers are pushing the signal partly under the SNR window as you put it earlier in the thread, of your DACs. I thought we explained that. None of the other technical aspects covered in this thread explain it, IMO. Unless someone wants to pipe in with new information. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
On 07/05/10 14:18, mswlogo wrote: Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said, Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max. Can you please at least do us the courtesy of reading what we actually say? Phil did *not* say nobody else hears it; he said: ...whilst other people (including me) have no issue with the concept, because they can't hear anything very bad happening. ie. he can't hear anything bad, and he knows others that can't hear anything bad. This is not the same as saying nobody else hears it. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;544284 Wrote: Thanks for trying. Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said, Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max. Nobody has successfully demonstrated a DBT that supports that... just saying it doesn't make it true :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;544284 Wrote: Thanks for trying. Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said, Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max. Nobody has successfully demonstrated a DBT that supports that... just saying it doesn't make it true :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;544295 Wrote: mswlogo, I was looking for that but I couldn't find it. Can you send a link please? Edit: found it in related thread. Too? Has someone claimed something else is f'ked up? Darren Actually it just may be. But willing to admit errors unlike some folks. I plan to run it with better unbalanced cables and making sure they are no where near AC cables (which I have all shielded) and I'll try to run it on balanced as well. I normally don't run analog on anything. Only place is within my DSP speakers. The Soundcard and Laptop were all on battery power. And other tests using that setup were much cleaner. I should have noticed the 60hz. But it was late. I doubt it's the transporter. So I suspect the analog cable picked it up. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543643 Wrote: Cool. Thanks. Do you know what aplies it? Hardware (Transporter) or SlimServer plugin? Does Transporter have to be below MAX in order for Replay Gain to boost? That's doee there have to headroom? Does it apply dither? I'd like to boost some CD's up to full scale (say +3dB or +6dB). But I will keep Transporter on Max. Can it still apply +6dB? Replaygain quick 101: 1) using something like Foobar will calculate the correct RG tags to achieve an RMS loudness of 89dB for each album. Separate tags are written (in each track) for the track on its own and for the album as a set of tracks. 2) Using the SmartGain option in SBS allows albums to play back with the correct relative loudness between tracks AND for random tracks across albums to play at equivalent loudness 3) Using Foobar to scan whole albums at a time avoids any clipping - track peaks are scanned and the album gain for each track is set accordingly 4) the RG tags are interpreted by SBS but applied in the player before the volume control settings are applied. RG has no knowledge of the volume settings. There is no need to dither as there is no change in bit-depth connected to RG itself and no complex DSP is involved. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;543838 Wrote: Replaygain quick 101: 1) using something like Foobar will calculate the correct RG tags to achieve an RMS loudness of 89dB for each album. Separate tags are written (in each track) for the track on its own and for the album as a set of tracks. 2) Using the SmartGain option in SBS allows albums to play back with the correct relative loudness between tracks AND for random tracks across albums to play at equivalent loudness 3) Using Foobar to scan whole albums at a time avoids any clipping - track peaks are scanned and the album gain for each track is set accordingly 4) the RG tags are interpreted by SBS but applied in the player before the volume control settings are applied. RG has no knowledge of the volume settings. There is no need to dither as there is no change in bit-depth connected to RG itself and no complex DSP is involved. You could apply a fixed RG tag of +6dB to all tracks (and risk much clipping) or you could let RG calculate the tags first and then edit them to suit you. Thanks for the info. I'd only apply +6dB gain if Replay Gain says I have that much headroom in the whole album (i.e. Peak_Album 0.50) To bad there is no mode to simply say Full Scale Album basically add as much gain as the peak_album tag says there is room for. That's exactly what the amplify in Audacity defaults to. I use dbPowerAmp to add Replay Gain tags. dpPoweramp also has a Volume Normalize that does what ReplayGain does but also has the option to set Full Scale per track (not per album). They call it Peak to Peak. Meaning put Peak Data at the Peak of the Word (or DAC). But I don't want to do that per track. But per album. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543842 Wrote: I'd only apply +6dB gain if Replay Gain says I have that much headroom in the whole album (i.e. Peak_Album 0.50) To bad there is no mode to simply say Full Scale Album basically add as much gain as the peak_album tag says there is room for. That's exactly what the amplify in Audacity defaults to. It sounds as if you'd like to use ReplayGain as a way of peak normalising your albums. That's not what RG is for - it is specifically aimed at equalising the perceived loudness during playback amongst albums (or tracks). Incidentally, RG doesn't just use RMS level to calculate loudness - it uses the Fletcher-Munson response curve. If you want to peak normalise, you can do that easily with an audio editor (such as Audacity), and you won't then be dependant on having a RG-aware playback device. But something is bothering me. From what you say, it appears that you believe that if you have a track/album that peaks at -6dB (ie. 50%), and you apply 6dB of digital gain to it (whether by normalisation or with ReplayGain), then you'll increase its dynamic range. It does nothing of the sort, of course. It will increase the source file's noise by 6dB along with the signal. And since the noise floor in the file is almost certainly way higher than that in your DAC, you won't gain any benefit from the fact that you're now using an extra bit in the DAC. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
cliveb;543849 Wrote: It sounds as if you'd like to use ReplayGain as a way of peak normalising your albums. That's not what RG is for - it is specifically aimed at equalising the perceived loudness during playback amongst albums (or tracks). Incidentally, RG doesn't just use RMS level to calculate loudness - it uses the Fletcher-Munson response curve. If you want to peak normalise, you can do that easily with an audio editor (such as Audacity), and you won't then be dependant on having a RG-aware playback device. But something is bothering me. From what you say, it appears that you believe that if you have a track/album that peaks at -6dB (ie. 50%), and you apply 6dB of digital gain to it (whether by normalisation or with ReplayGain), then you'll increase its dynamic range. It does nothing of the sort, of course. It will increase the source file's noise by 6dB along with the signal. And since the noise floor in the file is almost certainly way higher than that in your DAC, you won't gain any benefit from the fact that you're now using an extra bit in the DAC. Using audacity would be insane. dbpoweramp can do a whole library to full scale in 5 clicks. But I want to do it by album. I managed to find all albums over 6dB attenuated and boost them by 6dB. Took a few more clicks. But I'd be doing it for month using audacity. You're really having a hard time grasping this full scale stuff aren't you. If what you're saying were true, this test would have the same dynamic range for all attenuation levels. It doesn't. Notice dynamic range DECREASES with digital attenuation. http://mysite.verizon.net/forumwebspace/RightMark/Test%20Reports/Volume.htm It will INCREASE with digital gain up to full scale. You're not really increasing/decreasing, your just putting the data in the best performing part of the DAC. Peak to Peak as dBPowerAmp calls it. You're not getting more bits. If it's over attenuated they are gone. But you can move them up to the best part of the DAC. Yes, noise is a big part of it. When you push your data down, your pushing low bits it into noisier (poorer performing bits) of the DAC. Then you increase the gain in analog to get the level you want to hear, amplifying that lower bit NOISE. By bringing it up you move the data away from the noising bits and you bring your analog gain down to the level you want attenuating the noise of the low bits. All bits of a DAC are not equal. If they were equal (perfect) that test woould have the same dynamic range for all attenuation levels. You are assuming a DAC is perfect, even at 20bits. It's not. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543857 Wrote: You're really having a hard time grasping this full scale stuff aren't you. Er, no. *YOU* are having a hard time grapsing that all these theoretical issues have NO BEARING WHATSOEVER in a normal listening situation. mswlogo;543857 Wrote: You're not really increasing/decreasing, your just putting the data in the best performing part of the DAC. Quite so. But: a). The noise floor of the programme material is vastly higher than the DAC's own noise floor (and the point where DAC linearity degrades). b). The listening environment will have a background noise level vastly higher than the DAC's. These two factors completely mask any benefit gained by operating the DAC in its most linear range. (Within reason, of course. As always, it is important to get the gain staging correct). Here's your fundamental problem: you are unable to distinguish perfectly valid theoretical issues from their real-world consequences. You have heard an improvement in sound quality where there is none. There's a very rational explanation for this: it's called expectation bias. mswlogo;543857 Wrote: You are assuming a DAC is perfect, even at 20bits. It's not. I never said that. What I have been at pains to explain to you is that the imperfections of DACs operating in their non-linear ranges are beneath the threshold of audibility in a normal listening situation. The only way you were able to objectively demonstrate the degradation that happens when a DAC is operating in its non-linear range was to prepare an artificial sample and boost the analogue gain to insane levels. As I said in my very first response to you, no sh*t, Sherlock!. This is hardly a surprise to anyone. It's simply an extreme example of what happens when the gain staging is wrong - very wrong in this case. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
pfarrell;543694 Wrote: Its not just rounding errors. Nearly all DSP is done by converting the time-doman signal to the frequency domain using a FFT. DSP chips are notable because they do a combined multiply-and-add function quickly, usually massively parallel processing. Nearly all of the time, they are actually working on floating point numbers, not the 16 or 24 bit integers that most audiophiles are used to talking about. Yes, it's frequency domain stuff. Still, the Meridian document states MeridianÂ’s DSP loudspeakers utilise 48-bit internal fixed-point resolution. cliveb;543914 Wrote: There's a very rational explanation for this: it's called expectation bias. I've suggested this but to my mind, at this point, there is another possibility. It seems to me that any crossover will do EQ. This is in-band. I'm not referring to difference in levels between bands - these might be implemented with analogue gain. I'm talking in-band, the necessarily DSP bit, assuming you have a DSP-based crossover. LOL. Anyway, EQ via DSP is done by attenuation - you can't boost above 0db, you can only push frequencies down. I suggest (it's just a suggestion because I'm not an engineer) that this might cause the Meridian system to be more sensitive to digital volume control - because it's ALREADY got digital attenuation inherent in the system. The digital volume control after the crossovers is pushing the signal perhaps below the 20 bit level altogether. I agree with mswlogo that the lower bits are lower performing - it's not a black and white thing like we tend to discuss it. However I believe with something like a TP, Benchark DAC1 or similar the effects of digital volume - starting with 0db being a comfortable listening maximum - are not audible. However, I don't think starting with 0db is a valid assumption for the Meridian system since db are lost (for certainly some and perhaps much of the frequencies) in the DSP crossovers. If someone can provide more technical information to refute my suggestion I would be happy to see it. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543926 Wrote: I agree with mswlogo that the lower bits are lower performing - it's not a black and white thing like we tend to discuss it. However, in the initial part of the attenuation the degradation is relatively small. Even the Squeezebox test results show this and I believe better DACs will have even lower degradation overall and especially in the initial region of attenuation. I believe with something like a TP, Benchark DAC1 or similar the effects of reasonable digital volume - starting with 0db being a comfortable listening maximum - will be measurably small and not audible. Darren The SqueezeBox test as I read it says the degration is HUGE !! 4bits of attenution (Volume 20 is 24dB) drops to 75dB dynamic range. Nearly 4bits lost for 4bits of attenuation. It's practically behaving like a 16bit DAC, that the low 8 bits don't even exist !!! It's behaving like a 16.2bit DAC. If I did have a Perfect 16bit DAC. And attenuated 4bits. And there by lost every I attenuted by, I'd get 72dB dynamic range, right? SqueezeBox gets 75dB. You can't get much worse. I agree other DACs will do better. But people keep referencing this squeezebox test in defense as showing all is fine and it's showing it couldn't be much worse. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
On 06/05/10 14:33, mswlogo wrote: But people keep referencing this squeezebox test in defense as showing all is fine and it's showing it couldn't be much worse. I actually pointed you at that test to point out that people were aware of the digital volume degradation issue, rather than to demonstrate that all is fine. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543939 Wrote: The SqueezeBox test as I read it says the degration is HUGE !! 4bits of attenution (Volume 20 is 24dB) drops to 75dB dynamic range. Nearly 4bits lost for 4bits of attenuation. It's practically behaving like a 16bit DAC, that the low 8 bits don't even exist !!! It's behaving like a 16.5bit DAC. If I did have a Perfect 16bit DAC. And attenuated 4bits. And there by lost every I attenuated by, I'd get 72dB dynamic range (that's absolute worse case), right? SqueezeBox gets 75dB. You can't get much worse. I agree other DACs will do better. But people keep referencing this squeezebox test in defense as showing all is fine and it's showing it couldn't be much worse. mswlogo, Where do you get 4 bits of dynamic range lost from? Volume 20 is 25db down (slightly more than 4 bits in fact) and 19.4db less dynamic range (which is far nearer to 3 bits, isn't it?) Much more importantly I suggest you look at the detail - the degradation is not linear! darrenyeats;543576 Wrote: I think I see where you're coming from. If you look at the tests volume 30 is 12.5db of attenuaton but the result is only 7.1db reduction in dynamic range from 40 (max). This is noticeably different to stepping from volume 30 to volume 20, a further 12.5db attenuation but which results in a more expected 11.7db reduction in dynamic range. Why is the initial drop off nowhere near 12.5db decibels? I'm not an engineer but I do know this test was performed on a Squeezebox which has an SNR of over 100db. Perhaps someone can step in and explain why the initial drop off is less than 12.5db. Perhaps it is to do with the DAC noise being a further 4db or so lower than -96db (compared to a digital 0db signal)? That's why I'm betting better DACs will do a lot better - in the Squeezbox test I see the difference between going from 0db to -12.5db (7.1 db dynamic range lost) and going from -12.5db to -25db (11.7db dynamic range lost)...the effect is markedly different. I note that the gap between 12.5db and 7.1db is about the difference between 96db and the SNR of the Squeezebox (a bit more than 100db). Maybe someone can explain if this is a real connection or not. But it's not as simple as you say. Better DACs will degrade very slightly to begin with, I think. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
On 06/05/10 14:51, darrenyeats wrote: Much more importantly I suggest you look at the detail - the degradation is not linear! I seem to recall that the 0-40 attenuation curve was non-linear - it changed a bit over the years, from what I recall. That would explain why the degradtion is non-linear. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543939 Wrote: It's practically behaving like a 16bit DAC, that the low 8 bits don't even exist !!! It's behaving like a 16.5bit DAC. Of course, it has a SNR of a bit more than 100db. Nearly 1 bit better than 16 bits. The results make sense, nothing to do with how many bits are in the DAC. With such a SNR it could be 48 bit DAC digitally speaking but the results would be the same! It is precisely an improved SNR (not more bits) that will enable the extra bits to become meaningful. And reduce the dynamic range lost from attenuation. Like in a TP or Bennchark DAC1. Robin Bowes;543951 Wrote: On 06/05/10 14:51, darrenyeats wrote: Much more importantly I suggest you look at the detail - the degradation is not linear! I seem to recall that the 0-40 attenuation curve was non-linear - it changed a bit over the years, from what I recall. That would explain why the degradtion is non-linear. R. I don't think that's it. I checked and the steps were 1.25 db each. (As we all know, db are themselves not linear). Also the percentages look right. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543954 Wrote: It has a SNR of a little more than 100db. Approaching 1 bit better than 16 bits. The results make sense to me, nothing to do with how many bits are in the DAC. With such a SNR it could be 48 bit DAC digitally speaking but the results would be the same! It is precisely an improved SNR (not more bits) that will improve performance to something like a 20 or 21 bit DAC. Like in a TP or Benchmark DAC1. The Squeezebox and TP/Benchmark DAC1 all use 24 bit DACs...isn't the difference between them down to something else? I totally agree and that is probably a better way to look at it. It has a fixed total SNR. 100dB. By attenuating digitally your sliding within a 100dB window. Which is what I said, 100dB is about 16.5bits. I think we are on the same page there. I agree you can call it what ever you want and what ever number of bits. It's 100dB window on taht DAC. And basically you want to stay with in it (keep the bits of your CD within it). So on that unit you can attenuate about 3dB for free. That's all the elbow room there is. Big whoop. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543960 Wrote: I totally agree and that is probably a better way to look at it. It has a fixed total SNR. 100dB. By attenuating digitally your sliding within a 100dB window. Which is what I said, 100dB is about 16.5bits. I think we are on the same page there. I agree you can call it what ever you want and what ever number of bits. It's 100dB window on taht DAC. And basically you want to stay with in it (keep the bits of your CD within it). So on that unit you can attenuate about 3dB for free. That's all the elbow room there is. Big whoop. mswlogo, Yes. I think this is the predominant effect, anyway. Of course, moving bits down in any DAC brings the DAC's noise floor up but the point is, if that's low enough to begin with (say -120db like in a TP) that's still not a big effect compared to quantisation noise in a 16 bit signal. So you lose a tad of fidelity but this has little impact because the limitation of the 16 bit signal is the dominant factor in that situation. You're right though - the Squeezebox is limited. With my SB3 digital attenuation will hurt dynamic range measurably. I don't hear it - but I accept one might with certain systems and music. I will probably get round to buying a Benchmark DAC1 or something but only when I upgrade the rest! Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543960 Wrote: I totally agree and that is probably a better way to look at it. It has a fixed total SNR. 100dB. By attenuating digitally your sliding within a 100dB window. Which is what I said, 100dB is about 16.5bits. I think we are on the same page there. I agree you can call it what ever you want and what ever number of bits. It's 100dB window on taht DAC. And basically you want to stay with in it (keep the bits of your CD within it). So on that unit you can attenuate about 3dB for free. That's all the elbow room there is. Big whoop. You appear to be making the classic mistake of assuming you need as much dynamic range when listening at low levels as you do when listening at high levels. You don't. If you need 100dB of dynamic range when listening at a peak level of 100dB SPL, then you only need 90dB dynamic range when listening at a peak level of 90dB SPL. When you attenuate by 10dB to reduce the listening level that much, you can afford to lose 10dB of dynamic range. That's why it doesn't matter whether you do the attenuation by digital or analogue means. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
cliveb;543993 Wrote: You appear to be making the classic mistake of assuming you need as much dynamic range when listening at low levels as you do when listening at high levels. You don't. If you need 100dB of dynamic range when listening at a peak level of 100dB SPL, then you only need 90dB dynamic range when listening at a peak level of 90dB SPL. When you attenuate by 10dB to reduce the listening level that much, you can afford to lose 10dB of dynamic range. That's why it doesn't matter whether you do the attenuation by digital or analogue means. But you're making the classic mistake that music uses the full (or a fixed) dynamic range all the time (Marching Bands and Brahms at the same time). I don't care about that situation. I may have a Full Scale tune blasting away at 90dB and it may change to using ANY number of bits at ANY time. That's why I posted that Audacity screen shot a dozen posts back. It swings from steady 6dB down to a steady 30dB down. That tune shows it very visibly. But all tunes do that at a higher frequency than that example shows. Stop looking at it, as one sample at time. Sure, the really LOUD samples will still have plenty of SNR. But the quiet ones will get harmed more. Now how fast ones ear responds to those changes in levels (how fast is humans Automatic Gain Control) is up for debate. But the example I gave shows it can be pretty darn slow and be needed. So yeah if you have a tune that is bashing you at full scale all the time, you won't notice a couple bits lost. One smash of a symbol will start full scale and decay in amplitude. As it decays the performance of those lower bits get more important. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
cliveb;543993 Wrote: You appear to be making the classic mistake of assuming you need as much dynamic range when listening at low levels as you do when listening at high levels. You don't. If you need 100dB of dynamic range when listening at a peak level of 100dB SPL, then you only need 90dB dynamic range when listening at a peak level of 90dB SPL. When you attenuate by 10dB to reduce the listening level that much, you can afford to lose 10dB of dynamic range. That's why it doesn't matter whether you do the attenuation by digital or analogue means. I'm not sure about that, Clive. I think mswlogo has a point although I would put it this way: human hearing adjusts to new sound levels. So turning down the volume could actually enable you to hear quieter sounds! It's a bit academic for you though...you've got a TP so the limiting factor for dynamic range will be the 16 bit signal noise, even with 20db of digital attenuation. DAC noise floor is incredibly low. -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543999 Wrote: I'm not sure about that, Clive. I think mswlogo has a point (crazy thread mswlogo, crazy thread!) although I would put it this way: human hearing adjusts to new sound levels. So turning down the volume could actually enable you to hear quieter sounds! It's a bit academic for you though...you've got a TP so by far the dominant factor for dynamic range will be the 16 bit signal noise, even with 20db of digital attenuation. DAC noise floor is incredibly low. They say humans have 120dB dynamic range. But that probably is not instantanious. It can hear something very loud. And hear some very soft a short time later. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543999 Wrote: I'm not sure about that, Clive. I think mswlogo has a point (crazy thread mswlogo, crazy thread!) although I would put it this way: human hearing adjusts to new sound levels. So turning down the volume could actually enable you to hear quieter sounds! It's a bit academic for you though...you've got a TP so by far the dominant factor for dynamic range will be the 16 bit signal noise, even with 20db of digital attenuation. DAC noise floor is incredibly low. Human AGC is quite slow to act. It won't track the levels in that Offenbach example. It's not intended to be a fast-acting compressor - we have an evolutionary need to differentiate loud/quiet to stay alive (loud=near, quiet=far away to misquote Father Ted...) The rate at which level changes tells us something about how fast the source is moving. Two ears helps us determine direction of movement... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543997 Wrote: One smash of a symbol will start full scale and decay in amplitude. As it decays the performance of those lower bits get more important. Yes, absolutely. As the cymbal crash dies away, the lower level detail is no longer masked by the loud crash. Therefore you need accurate reproduction of the lower bits to hear the subtle aspects. So we are in agreement? Er, no... Let's say you're listening to a piece of music and there's a cymbal crash peaking at 100dB SPL, then it decays. Let's be extreme about this and say there are decay details at 4dB SPL you need to be able to hear. (We'll ignore for the moment that your lisening room can't possibly be quiet enough). In order to hear those details, you need a system capable of a 96dB dynamic range (ie. a full 16 bits). The voltage of the signal at 4dB is 1/65536th of the voltage at 100dB. If the voltage that delivers 100dB is 10V, the voltage that gives you 4dB is 0.152mV. So far so good. Now turn the volume down, so the cymbal crash is at 94dB. The voltage to generate that level is half that required for 100dB: 5V. And so the subtle detail in the decay will now be playing at 0.076mV, which will give an output level 6dB lower than it was before, ie. at -2dB SPL. But hang on - you can't hear anything beneath 0dB SPL. Those subtle details that were audible in the decay when the peak level was 100dB are not audible when the peak level is 94dB. Once again: as you turn the volume down, the required dynamic range reduces. I'm not talking about the changing levels within a track, I'm talking about adjusting the playback level with a volume control. If 16 bits of resolution is enough when you're listening at 100% on the volume control, then 15 bits will be enough when it's at 50% (assuming a linear scale for simplicity). On the other hand, if your system/ear is wonderful enough that you need 20bits at 100%, then you'll need 19 bits at 50%. But the principle remains the same: to retain the same amount of audibility of fine detail, as you reduce the playback level you can afford to lose dynamic range. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;544008 Wrote: Human AGC is quite slow to act. It won't track the levels in that Offenbach example. It's not intended to be a fast-acting compressor - we have an evolutionary need to differentiate loud/quiet to stay alive (loud=near, quiet=far away to misquote Father Ted...) The rate at which level changes tells us something about how fast the source is moving. Two ears helps us determine direction of movement... Agreed. As I said I was referring to turning down the volume, which is a long-term change. I've moved my position since the beginning of the thread on this point, because of what I've read. No doubt. I'm probably somewhere between your/Clive's position and mswlogo's in that (a) I think the lower the volume the less requirement for dynamic range but (b) I think human hearing does adjust to a certain degree (not perfectly). I would like to see more evidence or resources on this particular point before saying any more. As I say, given 16 bit source material on a high performing DAC this question is effectively moot. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
cliveb;544011 Wrote: Yes, absolutely. As the cymbal crash dies away, the lower level detail is no longer masked by the loud crash. Therefore you need accurate reproduction of the lower bits to hear the subtle aspects. So we are in agreement? Er, no... Let's say you're listening to a piece of music and there's a cymbal crash peaking at 100dB SPL, then it decays. Let's be extreme about this and say there are decay details at 4dB SPL you need to be able to hear. (We'll ignore for the moment that your lisening room can't possibly be quiet enough). In order to hear those details, you need a system capable of a 96dB dynamic range (ie. a full 16 bits). The voltage of the signal at 4dB is 1/65536th of the voltage at 100dB. If the voltage that delivers 100dB is 10V, the voltage that gives you 4dB is 0.152mV. So far so good. Now turn the volume down, so the cymbal crash is at 94dB. The voltage to generate that level is half that required for 100dB: 5V. And so the subtle detail in the decay will now be playing at 0.076mV, which will give an output level 6dB lower than it was before, ie. at -2dB SPL. But hang on - you can't hear anything beneath 0dB SPL. Those subtle details that were audible in the decay when the peak level was 100dB are not audible when the peak level is 94dB. Once again: as you turn the volume down, the required dynamic range reduces. I'm not talking about the changing levels within a track, I'm talking about adjusting the playback level with a volume control. If 16 bits of resolution is enough when you're listening at 100% on the volume control, then 15 bits will be enough when it's at 50% (assuming a linear scale for simplicity). On the other hand, if your system/ear is wonderful enough that you need 20bits at 100%, then you'll need 19 bits at 50%. But the principle remains the same: to retain the same amount of audibility of fine detail, as you reduce the playback level you can afford to lose dynamic range. (Edit - or rather: as you turn the playback level down, you can't hear as much fine detail, so you don't need as much dynamic range). When you turn it down in analog your noise floor goes down with it (for the most part). When you turn it down in digital it does not !! -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
One thing I think we are hung up on is. Your saying the noise floor of the room is the limitation and I'm saying it's the DAC. You're also considering that floor as a discrete wall. It's not really, that's the problem. As you shift down ALL the bits perform progressively worse. Not just the least significant one(s). -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;544022 Wrote: When you turn it down in analog your noise floor goes down with it (for the most part). When you turn it down in digital it does not !! Not exactly - with digital attenuation, the noise floor of the recording does go down but the noise floor of the DAC stays fixed. I think this is the crux. I think the noise floor of the recording always swamps that of the DAC. This is certainly true of any recordings made before 1980, and most recordings made up to the point when the SONY PCM1 recorder stopped being state-of-the-art... I'd go further and bet that no recordings made until the late 90's achieved better that an 80dB noise floor. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;544035 Wrote: Not exactly - with digital attenuation, the noise floor of the recording does go down but the noise floor of the DAC stays fixed. I think this is the crux. I think the noise floor of the recording always swamps that of the DAC. This is certainly true of any recordings made before 1980, and most recordings made up to the point when the SONY PCM1 recorder stopped being state-of-the-art... I'd go further and bet that no recordings made until the late 90's achieved better that an 80dB noise floor. I can't argue that. But keep in mind every attenuation shift cost is relative to what you have. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;544033 Wrote: As you shift down ALL the bits perform progressively worse. Not just the least significant one(s). Yes, yes, mswlogo, all the bits perform progressively worse! LOL. May I add once more, if the quantisation noise of a 16 bit signal is at -96db and you have a DAC with noise of -120db, that badness inherent in the 16 bit signal utterly dominates the tiny degree of worseness because of the DAC bit shift. But we all agree on that I think? It depends how good the DAC is and how far you shift down whether fidelity is affected (ranging from very insignificantly to significantly). I reckon a TP can perform the same as the squeeze...@100% in that test after at least 3 bits shift downward. Will it perform better at full range? My guess would be yes but only insignificantly so, assuming a 16 bit signal. Good night all! Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543330 Wrote: ...At 80 (on the new Transporter scale) you are not attenuating a normal range for volume control... Dropping down to 80 is not really a legit range to test... with that test you probably only lose a little over .5 bits... If you only drop 10dB it would be difficult to hear on a good DAC... 80 to 100 (that's only +/- 5dB) is way too narrow a range as a realistic Volume control... Hi mswlogo, I'm just curious here please: So are you now saying, that when digital attenuation is used -as a supplement- (i.e. as an additional 10db or so) good analog attenuation, the never in your post title can be dropped? -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
I thought we had established that we are not losing detail until you've shifted over 4 bits but raising the noise floor out of the DAC (so the quietest sounds get closer to it or even in extreme cases, below it - although you can still hear them). Personally I reckon you can lose 4 more bits than that before you can detect anything in a DBT - we obviously don't agree on this but there have been many tests over the years that indicate people have difficulty telling 16-bit from 16-bit reduced (properly) to 12 or even 10 bits. Anyway, yes I am using an analogue pre-amp, and I have the Vol on 100... BUT I use Replaygain (which is the same as using the volume control, with one important exception - it can also boost). Across my collection the AlbumReplaygain range is -12dB /+5dB average. So on the loudest albums (which are all heavily compressed loudness wars victims) I'm using 12dB of digital attenuation. On the quietest, I'm boosting the level (pre-dac) by 5dB. I don't believe this has any audible effect other than changing the level. I don't believe that may people on this forum advocate using the full range of the digital attenuation with just a power amp, preferring instead to set the gain-staging correctly via analogue attenuators between dac and amp and using the SB attenuation between 70-100 (and/or replaygain) Your situation is different, since you have a fully digital chain into your amps - so nowhere to insert the analogue attenuation?. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Hi there, i have a problem. I crashed my new amp (creek). i just have a sb3 classic with a creek destiny. The destiny crashed after two hours. Then we tried it again with a diffent device (creek destiny) the new device crashed also. Now..The advice was to lower the output signal of my SB, because it seems that the SB analog output signal shoots some ugly signals out..that may harm the preamp-input of the creek destiny. HEre are my questions: 1) is this a value concern ? 2) the advice the hifi-shop was to lower the SB-output signal to let say 60-70%)..does this make sense. 3) i read carefully many of your statements...so ...does this advice lower the quality of my singal?...i ususally use FLAC...ripped from normal Audio-CDs 4) is the usage of a DAC a solution that circumvents the volume control of the SB...or may circumvent the problem oror ...does it i am confused please help...or is there a value manual of how the thins working inside the SB classic ? cheers johannes -- johannes johannes's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10875 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543050 Wrote: Correct in that example Volume 20 has has 75.8dB of dynamic range. They also note that Volume 20 is 50%. I believe translating that, that would mean 50% of the 0-96dB scale. Or in other words 48dB of attenuation. 8bits of attenuation. For the Volume 30 case. They list that as 75%. Which is the closest value to your example of 80. So you will get close to the performance of Volume 30. At volume 30 you get approx 88dB dynamic range. 2-bits lost at 75% volume. If you want to extrapolate you'd lose something like 1.8bits at 80%. I think I see where you're coming from. If you look at the tests volume 30 is 12.5db of attenuaton but the result is only 7.1db reduction in dynamic range from 40 (max). This is noticeably different to stepping from volume 30 to volume 20, a further 12.5db attenuation but which results in a more expected 11.7db reduction in dynamic range. Why is the initial drop off nowhere near 12.5db decibels? I'm not an engineer but I do know this test was performed on a Squeezebox which has an SNR of over 100db. Perhaps someone can step in and explain why the initial drop off is less than 12.5db. Perhaps it is to do with the DAC noise being a further 4db or so lower than -96db (compared to a digital 0db signal)? I would like to see the same test but on a Transporter. This has a SNR of about 120db. Wouldn't the drop in dynamic range be less than with a Squeezebox? Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
johannes;543568 Wrote: Hi there, i have a problem. I crashed my new amp (creek). i just have a sb3 classic with a creek destiny. The destiny crashed after two hours. Then we tried it again with a diffent device (creek destiny) the new device crashed also. Now..The advice was to lower the output signal of my SB, because it seems that the SB analog output signal shoots some ugly signals out..that may harm the preamp-input of the creek destiny. HEre are my questions: 1) is this a value concern ? 2) the advice the hifi-shop was to lower the SB-output signal to let say 60-70%)..does this make sense. 3) i read carefully many of your statements...so ...does this advice lower the quality of my singal?...i ususally use FLAC...ripped from normal Audio-CDs 4) is the usage of a DAC a solution that circumvents the volume control of the SB...or may circumvent the problem oror ...does it i am confused please help...or is there a value manual of how the thins working inside the SB classic ? cheers johannes Johannes, You need to read http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Connect_To_PowerAmp especially section http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Connect_To_PowerAmp#Finally.2C_the_problem_-_line_level_to_input_sensitivity_mismatch You need analogue attenuators. I use Rothwells; a lot of people here recommend Endlers. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;543499 Wrote: I thought we had established that we are not losing detail until you've shifted over 4 bits but raising the noise floor out of the DAC (so the quietest sounds get closer to it or even in extreme cases, below it - although you can still hear them). Personally I reckon you can lose 4 more bits than that before you can detect anything in a DBT - we obviously don't agree on this but there have been many tests over the years that indicate people have difficulty telling 16-bit from 16-bit reduced (properly) to 12 or even 10 bits. Anyway, yes I am using an analogue pre-amp, and I have the Vol on 100... BUT I use Replaygain (which is the same as using the volume control, with one important exception - it can also boost). Across my collection the AlbumReplaygain range is -12dB /+5dB average. So on the loudest albums (which are all heavily compressed loudness wars victims) I'm using 12dB of digital attenuation. On the quietest, I'm boosting the level (pre-dac) by 5dB. I don't believe this has any audible effect other than changing the level. I don't believe that may people on this forum advocate using the full range of the digital attenuation with just a power amp, preferring instead to set the gain-staging correctly via analogue attenuators between dac and amp and using the SB attenuation between 70-100 (and/or replaygain) Your situation is different, since you have a fully digital chain into your amps - so nowhere to insert the analogue attenuation?. I never agreed 4 bits were free. In that test Volume 20 is a 4bit shift. If 4bits didn't lose detail you'd still have 96dB of dynamic range. But you get 76 dB. They attenuated 4bits and lost 4bits. I must have said that 6 times now. Replay Gain is a slightly different deal and I rethinking using it myself in a unique way. If you have CD's that are way over compressed they are junk anyway and probably have no low level detail. So you can't make them much worse. Boosting them is fine in fact is good because if a CD has too much headroom it's the same argument that it's better to bring them up to full scale. As long as you don't clip them. However Replay Gain by default uses RMS Volume to decide not Peak Data. So you need to be careful it does not cause significant clipping. Minor occasional clipping is not a big deal. I assume your premium albums have little on replay gain. So it's up to you if want to use it. I personally won't ever attenuate with replay gain. But I might consider boosting with it. But that presents some other complex problems in Meridian land I'm not going into here. We have thread on that topic actually on Meridian Forum. Just one quick comment any time you change volume digitally you need to redither and I'm curious if that happens and who does it. Plugin or SqueezeBox. I removed a 6dB digital attenuation from my system and I can hear the difference. I can't hear Meridian upsampling. I can't hear Merdian apodizing. I can't hear the difference between m...@320kps and flac. But I can hear the loss 6dB digitally does. You can research Meridian spekaers on your own if you want. But effectively they are DAC, Preamp, and ANALOG amps all in one box. It's exactly the same as a conventional setup it's just they put in all one box. They actually have 4 DAC channels and 4 amps in the box. Because they do crossover in digital domain. This allows amps to run 100% efficient compared to passive crossovers and avoid phase problems passive crossovers have. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543576 Wrote: I think I see where you're coming from. If you look at the tests volume 30 is 12.5db of attenuaton but the result is only 7.1db reduction in dynamic range from 40 (max). This is noticeably different to stepping from volume 30 to volume 20, a further 12.5db attenuation but which results in a more expected 11.7db reduction in dynamic range. Why is the initial drop off nowhere near 12.5db decibels? Darren Correct. At least some folks are reading. The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not 20bit, it's barely even 16bit. As you shift down. You're not losing discrete WHOLE bits. You're just pushing them into a range of the DAC where it performs worse. So it converts those low bits but not as well as it does in higher positions. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543590 Wrote: Correct. At least some folks are reading. The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not 20bit, it's barely even 16bit. As you shift down. You're not losing discrete WHOLE bits. You're just pushing them into a range of the DAC where it performs worse. So it converts those low bits but not as well as it does in higher positions. Yeah. My question was about the test results. They're for a Squeezebox but I'd like to see them using a much better performing DAC (e.g. TP). How much would the results change? Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543590 Wrote: Correct. At least some folks are reading. The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not 20bit, it's barely even 16bit. As you shift down. You're not losing discrete WHOLE bits. You're just pushing them into a range of the DAC where it performs worse. So it converts those low bits but not as well as it does in higher positions. Yeah. My question was about the test results. They're for a Squeezebox but I'd like to see them using a much better performing DAC (e.g. TP). How much would the results change? Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543590 Wrote: The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not 20bit, it's barely even 16bit. mswlogo, In principle, I agree. But it's a question of how good the particular DAC is whether this effect impinges materially. Have a look at http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/207slim/index4.html . These are measurements on the Transporter. Look at figure 5 which shows that the Transporter makes a very good fist of outputting a 16 bit signal down to the finest resolution. You can see each step in output. Impressive stuff IMO. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543590 Wrote: The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not 20bit, it's barely even 16bit. mswlogo, In principle, I agree. But it's a question of how good the particular DAC is whether this effect impinges materially. Have a look at http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/207slim/index4.html . These are measurements on the Transporter. Look at figure 5 which shows that the Transporter makes a very good fist of outputting a 16 bit signal down to the finest resolution. You can see each step in output. Impressive stuff IMO. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543596 Wrote: mswlogo, In principle I agree. But it's a question of how good the particular DAC is whether this effect impinges materially. Have a look at http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/207slim/index4.html . These are measurements on the Transporter. Look at figure 5 which shows that the Transporter makes a very good fist of outputting a 16 bit signal down to the finest resolution. You can see each step in output. Impressive stuff IMO. Darren I have a Transporter, great unit. But I don't use it's DACs. I use Meridian DACs. I can hear loss with 6dB attenuation. And so can 22 other Meridian owners. Use analog volume. I really need to get some real work done. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543600 Wrote: I have a Transporter, great unit. But I don't use it's DACs. I use Meridian DACs. I can hear loss with 6dB attenuation. And so can 22 other Meridian owners. Use analog volume. Perhaps the reason is the following: mswlogo;543588 Wrote: Because they do crossover in digital domain. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
johannes;543568 Wrote: Hi there, i have a problem. I crashed my new amp (creek). i just have a sb3 classic with a creek destiny. The destiny crashed after two hours. Then we tried it again with a diffent device (creek destiny) the new device crashed also. Now..The advice was to lower the output signal of my SB, because it seems that the SB analog output signal shoots some ugly signals out..that may harm the preamp-input of the creek destiny. What do you mean by crashed your amp? Is it physically burnt out or non-operational and needs repair? Or is it just not functioning correctly and needs to be powered down and restarted (as one might think of a computer crash)? Or does it mean something else? I've had a SB3 for several years and used a variety of amps and never had a problem. I know of no ugly signals - if the signal is truly distorted, then reducing volume is not a fix. It is possible the SB3 is bad. The solution there would be to try a different source with the amp (such as a CD player, tuner, etc.) and see if the issue repeats. Also, your issue has virtually nothing to do with this thread. I'd suggest you start a new one that is specific to your issue. -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mlsstl;543615 Wrote: What do you mean by crashed your amp? Is it physically burnt out or non-operational and needs repair? Or is it just not functioning correctly and needs to be powered down and restarted (as one might think of a computer crash)? Or does it mean something else? I've had a SB3 for several years and used a variety of amps and never had a problem. I know of no ugly signals - if the signal is truly distorted, then reducing volume is not a fix. It is possible the SB3 is bad. The solution there would be to try a different source with the amp (such as a CD player, tuner, etc.) and see if the issue repeats. Also, your issue has virtually nothing to do with this thread. I'd suggest you start a new one that is specific to your issue. hi, yes i know...but i read about your volume bit discussion and thought this could have an impact on my solution now...to lower the output power of my squeezebox may lowers the quality of my output signal...but i am maybe wrong.. anywhay i change the thread...fanx for your comment by the way...the amp was dead...- back to the supplier :-( johannes -- johannes johannes's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10875 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543603 Wrote: Perhaps the reason is the following: Darren For some reason quote did not work. But you said the reason I hear differences is due to digital crossovers. But that is a VERY good point. It probably does impact it. But I'm sure it does not account for all of it. That test clearly shows significant loss due to digital attenuation. Sean has said it, that test shows it. It's not free. Period. How MUCH impact is up to your system and ears. But I bit hear and there is critical in my opinion on any good recording. It won't matter much on crap. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
I just realized that it can't be the digital crossovers. It was a really good thought though. It's actually really good example where 24bit helps a lot. The Digital Crossovers will see every pure bit even if it's attenuated. The DSP processing is done in 48bit. Then back to 24bit. It not until it reaches the DAC these performance issues really kick in. They won't be impacted until you attenuate more than 8bits. Could there be a very slight impact yes. But it would be extremely small. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543588 Wrote: I never agreed 4 bits were free. In that test Volume 20 is a 4bit shift. If 4bits didn't lose detail you'd still have 96dB of dynamic range. But you get 76 dB. They attenuated 4bits and lost 4bits. I must have said that 6 times now. Replay Gain is a slightly different deal and I'm rethinking using it myself in a unique way. If you have CD's that are way over compressed they are junk anyway and probably have no low level detail. So you can't make them much worse. Boosting them is fine in fact is good because if a CD has too much headroom it's the same argument that it's better to bring them up to full scale. As long as you don't clip them (significantly). However Replay Gain by default uses RMS Volume to decide not Peak Data. So you need to be careful it does not cause significant clipping. Minor occasional clipping is not a big deal. I assume your premium albums have little or no replay gain. So it's up to you if want to use it. I personally won't ever attenuate with replay gain. But I might consider boosting with it. But that presents some other complex problems in Meridian land I'm not going into here. We have thread on that topic actually on Meridian Forum. Just one quick comment any time you change volume digitally you need to redither and I'm curious if that happens and who does it. Plugin or SqueezeBox. I removed a 6dB digital attenuation from my system and I can hear the difference. I can't hear Meridian upsampling. I can't hear Merdian apodizing. I can't hear the difference between m...@320kps and flac. But I can hear the loss 6dB digitally does. You can research Meridian spekaers on your own if you want. But effectively they are DAC, Preamp, and ANALOG amps all in one box. It's exactly the same as a conventional setup it's just they put it all in one box. They actually have 4 DAC channels and 4 amps in the box. Because they do crossover in digital domain. This allows amps to run 100% efficient compared to passive crossovers and avoid phase problems passive crossovers have. Replaygain does not clip. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;543639 Wrote: Replaygain does not clip. It assesses the peaks. Cool. Thanks. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543630 Wrote: For some reason quote did not work. But you said the reason I hear differences is due to digital crossovers. But that is a VERY good point. It probably does impact it. But I'm sure it does not account for all of it. That test clearly shows significant loss due to digital attenuation. Sean has said it, that test shows it. It's not free. Period. How MUCH impact is up to your system and ears. But I bit hear and there is critical in my opinion on any good recording. It won't matter much on crap. What Sean said was very clear... any attenuation increases the noise floor/decreases the SNR. That's all. Did he say you could ALWAYS hear it? - NO. He expressed no opinion on that AFAIK. You keep talking about loss - loss of what? Mathematically until you shift past the 16th bit in the 20-bit effective window you haven't lost anything except SNR. If you can really hear an increase of 6dB in the noise floor from -96dB to -90db then you have exceptional hearing. I can't... and I'm very glad I can't. I don't know anyone who can. Most people on the planet thing that a 75dB SNR is astonishingly good. Until 16-bit digital PCM recording, it was the state of the art. In fact, at best it defines the noise floor of most of your classical recordings (pre 1980's anyway). By the way, I have a fully-active tri-amped system - and STAX SR 4070/SRM727's that are more revealing than both your system or mine. Guess my ears must be shot... or maybe it's the crap I've been listening to? I give up... Off to listen to some music (with or without a bit of extra noise in it). -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543633 Wrote: I just realized that it can't be the digital crossovers. It was a really good thought though. It's actually a really good example where 24bit helps a lot. The Digital Crossovers will see every pure bit even if it's attenuated. The DSP processing is done in 48bit. Then back to 24bit. It's not until it reaches the DAC these performance issues really kick in. They won't be impacted until you attenuate more than 8bits. I can understand how 48 bits helps the DSP to be more transparent (less rounding errors). Once the resulting signal is converted to 24 bits and passed to a DAC, won't it be still subject to the 20 bits of dynamic range problem? Do you see why I ask? Or perhaps you could send a link that explains more about the Meridian set up. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543653 Wrote: I can understand how 48 bits helps the DSP to be more transparent (less rounding errors). Once the resulting signal is converted to 24 bits and passed to a DAC, won't it be still subject to the 20 bits of dynamic range problem? Do you see why I ask? Or perhaps you could send a link that explains more about the Meridian set up. Darren Correct, 48 bit just avoids rounding errors. Yes the DSP speaker is still subject to the problems discussed here. You can read about Meridian speakers here http://media.meridian-audio.com/datasheets/papers/DSP-speakers-paper-v2.pdf You will not find a all the details of there though, but some. The rest is spread over different bits of information that some folks have aquired over the years from Meridian. Some of what they do in their processors is the same as what's done in speakers too. And generations have changed. Their newest ones have apodizing filters in their upsampler. But for the life of me I can't hear the difference apodizing adds. Too old I guess. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;543646 Wrote: What Sean said was very clear... any attenuation increases the noise floor/decreases the SNR. That's all. Did he say you could ALWAYS hear it? - NO. He expressed no opinion on that AFAIK. You keep talking about loss - loss of what? Mathematically until you shift past the 16th bit in the 20-bit effective window you haven't lost anything except SNR. As soon as you shift down (filling the top end with zeros) you are basically throwing away dynamic range. I call it lost (or under utilized dynamic range that you have available). Call it what ever you like. Correct, Sean does not say how much difference you would actually hear. Just that those 8 bits attenution is not free. There is good reason CD's are 16bit. And why people (even on this forum) think more than 16bits (up to 20) sounds even better. But according to you it's impossible to hear even 16bits. Why bother having DACs that can even do 20bits. Just so you can turn down the freaken volume in digital. I don't think so !!! According to you 12bits is plenty. 6dB is 1 bit. That's a lot out of 16bits. Now if we were talking 20 vs 21 bits it would be different. But 15 vs 16bits. I'll take my 16bits thank you very much. A lot of CD's are not full scale either. There is another bit or so gone. So now on some CD's it's 14 vs 15 bits I'm hearing a difference in. Unless I use something like Replay Gain to bring back up ut back up to full scale. Which I'm think of using. But there are some complications with that in Meridian world (other benefits I don't wish to lose). I could share how to actually compare things but you'll just fight that tooth and nail on that too. So I won't bother. It would be too much of shock for this croud. Enjoy the tunes. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543684 Wrote: As soon as you shift down (filling the top end with zeros) you are basically throwing away dynamic range. I call it lost (or under utilized dynamic range that you have available). Call it what ever you like. Correct, Sean does not say how much difference you would actually hear. Just that those 8 bits attenution is not free. There is good reason CD's are 16bit. And why people (even on this forum) think more than 16bits (up to 20) sounds even better. But according to you it's impossible to hear even 16bits. Why bother having DACs that can even do 20bits. Just so you can turn down the freaken volume in digital. I don't think so !!! According to you 12bits is plenty. 6dB is 1 bit. That's a lot out of 16bits. Now if we were talking 20 vs 21 bits it would be different. But 15 vs 16bits. I'll take my 16bits thank you very much. A lot of CD's are not full scale either. There is another bit or so gone. So now on some CD's it's 14 vs 15 bits (6dB) I'm hearing a difference in. Unless I use something like Replay Gain to bring it back up to full scale. Which I'm think of using. But there are some complications with that in Meridian world (other benefits I don't wish to lose). I could share how to actually compare things but you'll just fight that tooth and nail on that too. So I won't bother. It would be too much of shock for this croud. Enjoy the tunes. The reason CD's are 16-bit is that 96dB of SNR looks so much better on paper than 84 (which is what CD was originally going to be... still better than the 75dB state of the art analogue at the time!) There is nothing in Shannon/Nyquist that talks to the number of bits required to accurately represent anything. What's a bit of noise between friends? This discussion has been about the impact of digital attenuation on 16-bit sources. By definition, 16-bit sources cannot exploit a 20-bit DAC. DVD-A can and it sounds better. I never said otherwise. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543674 Wrote: Correct, 48 bit just avoids rounding errors. Yes the DSP speaker is still subject to the problems discussed here. Once the DSP is done it's still attenuated digitally by the same amount before it goes into the DAC. You can read about Meridian speakers here http://media.meridian-audio.com/datasheets/papers/DSP-speakers-paper-v2.pdf You will not find a all the details of there though, but some. The rest is spread over different bits of information that some folks have aquired over the years from Meridian. Some of what they do in their processors is the same as what's done in speakers too. And generations have changed. Their newest ones have apodizing filters in their upsampler. But for the life of me I can't hear the difference apodizing adds. Too old I guess. Cheers, I've now read that pdf. I don't understand this fully yet. mswlogo;543633 Wrote: I just realized that it can't be the digital crossovers. I was looking for something in the pdf which might explain your statement above in particular but I couldn't find anything. Why can't it be the digital crossovers? Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats wrote: mswlogo;543633 Wrote: The DSP processing is done in 48bit. I can understand how 48 bits helps the DSP to be more transparent (less rounding errors). Its not just rounding errors. Nearly all DSP is done by converting the time-doman signal to the frequency domain using a FFT. DSP chips are notable because they do a combined multiply-and-add function quickly, usually massively parallel processing. Nearly all of the time, they are actually working on floating point numbers, not the 16 or 24 bit integers that most audiophiles are used to talking about. When you do as many multiply and add functions as a typical DSP does, and we are talking about tens of thousands, you need to be very careful with the numerical analysis. Its much more complicated than simple rounding of a few bits. This whole thread has been off in the weeds for weeks. A digital volume control is talking about a nearly trivial single multiply or shift function. DSP is more like dealing with quantum physics rather than Newtonian physics. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
pfarrell;543694 Wrote: DSP is more like dealing with quantum physics rather than Newtonian physics. You mentioned the Q-word, so the audiophile-specific version of Godwin's Law applies, and I declare this thread closed. Thank God :-) -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
pfarrell;543694 Wrote: darrenyeats wrote: mswlogo;543633 Wrote: The DSP processing is done in 48bit. I can understand how 48 bits helps the DSP to be more transparent (less rounding errors). Its not just rounding errors. Nearly all DSP is done by converting the time-doman signal to the frequency domain using a FFT. DSP chips are notable because they do a combined multiply-and-add function quickly, usually massively parallel processing. Nearly all of the time, they are actually working on floating point numbers, not the 16 or 24 bit integers that most audiophiles are used to talking about. When you do as many multiply and add functions as a typical DSP does, and we are talking about tens of thousands, you need to be very careful with the numerical analysis. Its much more complicated than simple rounding of a few bits. This whole thread has been off in the weeds for weeks. A digital volume control is talking about a nearly trivial single multiply or shift function. DSP is more like dealing with quantum physics rather than Newtonian physics. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ Correct a lot of DSP is done in floating point. I'm told by some that know the internals of Meridian stuff better than I do (it's burried in some papers to). That they use 48 bit integer math in the speakers. We are not talking about DSP used for volume but DSP used for Crossovers. And how much that would care if the data was shift down. I'm saying they generally would not care. Whether that math is done in 48bit integer, 72bit integer (which Meridian also uses) or 64bit float. It's the same if you know what your doine. The point is you have all the data and you don't do the crossovers in 24bit integer math. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
darrenyeats;543693 Wrote: Cheers, I've now read that pdf. I don't understand this fully yet. I was looking for something in the pdf which might explain your statement above in particular but I couldn't find anything. Why can't it be the digital crossovers? Darren Sorry I'm not going to get into computer math and precision. Basically we are still in the digital domain. One signal in attenuated by 6dB. Two signals out split by frequency both attenuated by 6dB. Just like if I turned the volume down digitally 6dB and then back up 6dB digitally on 16bit data in a 24bit word. There would be 0 harm. The digital crossovers have a finite precision. That won't change regardless of what's sent in. It may effect the LSB or two of the full 24bit word. But we are no where near there. It may effect crossovers when you start to attenuate say more than 6bits. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Just to clarify a couple of things: 1) on the old 0-40 scale, each step was 1.25dB 2) on the current 0-100 scale, each step is 0.5dB 3) on the 0-100 scale no bits are irretrievably lost from the 16 originals until the 16th (LSB) bit is shifted below the 24th (LSB) of the bit of the volume control (ignoring the DAC for a moment). 4) each complete bit-shift costs 6dB of SNR (or dynamic range if you insist) 5) With real 24-bit DAC's you can forget about the bottom 4 bits (of the 24) because the DAC's aren't perfect, for both 16 and 24-bit sources they will just carry noise which you can't hear anyway, even at greatly boosted listening volumes. So you are left with a 20-bit DAC and 4-bits of available shift before the DAC loses the ability to recover the full 16-bit information. Even for those 4 bits there is a cost of increased SNR (6dB per bit) but you won't hear this SNR impact unless the original signal is very low indeed, because making something that is very very quiet (the self-noise of the DAC) 16 times louder still means it is very quiet... http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=164814postcount=12 -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;543167 Wrote: Just to clarify a couple of things: 1) on the old 0-40 scale, each step was 1.25dB 2) on the current 0-100 scale, each step is 0.5dB 3) on the 0-100 scale no bits are irretrievably lost from the 16 originals until the 16th (LSB) bit is shifted below the 24th (LSB) bit of the volume control (ignoring the DAC for a moment). 4) each complete bit-shift costs 6dB of SNR (or dynamic range if you insist) 5) With real 24-bit DAC's you can forget about the bottom 4 bits (of the 24) because the DAC's aren't perfect, for both 16 and 24-bit sources they will just carry noise which you can't hear anyway, even at greatly boosted listening volumes. So you are left with a 20-bit DAC and 4-bits of available shift before the DAC loses the ability to recover the full 16-bit information - and this is academic. Even for those 4 bits there is a cost of increased SNR (6dB per bit) but you won't hear this SNR impact unless the original signal is very low indeed, because making something that is very very quiet (the self-noise of the DAC) 16 times louder still means it is very quiet... http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=164814postcount=12 If you are correct on that 0 - 40 scale being 1.25db then that test shows it's way worse than I ever anticipated. Volume 30 would be - 12.5dB attenuation. (2-Bits). And you're down to 88dB dynamic range on the table in that test. You lose 1.5bits of dynamic range. Volume 20 would be - 25.0dB attenuation. (4-Bits). And you're down to 75dB dynamic range on the table in that test. You lose almost 4bits of dynamic range. Attenuate a bit lose a bit. Nice. The bottom 8bits of that 24bit DAC are practically non existent. Thanks for the claification. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;543211 Wrote: If you are correct on that 0 - 40 scale being 1.25db then that test shows it's way worse than I ever anticipated. Volume 30 would be - 12.5dB attenuation. (2-Bits). And you're down to 88dB dynamic range on the table in that test. You lose 1.25bits of dynamic range. Volume 20 would be - 25.0dB attenuation. (4-Bits). And you're down to 75dB dynamic range on the table in that test. You lose almost 4bits of dynamic range. Attenuate a bit lose a bit. Nice. The bottom 8bits of that 24bit DAC are practically non existent. The link you refer to from sean is 100% correct. 8 bits are not free. Neither is 1 bit free, or 2 bits free, or any bits free. Thanks for the claification. The point is that (using 0-100 scale) volume 70 = 15dB of attenuation = SNR decreased by 15dB from 96dB to 81dB. You need to put that 81dB SNR into perspective: 1) you won't hear the extra noise at normal volumes at normal listening position - even playing digital silence 2) if there is ANY music playing you definitely won't hear it! 3) The SNR of the best vinyl replay is 60dB, the best cassette decks managed 65dB (just), the best Pro RTR tape decks (properly aligned, with new tape!) could do 75dB... so 81dB is well higher than any of those. This is why you won't hear it. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;543289 Wrote: The point is that (using 0-100 scale) volume 70 = 15dB of attenuation = SNR decreased by 15dB from 96dB to 81dB. You need to put that 81dB SNR into perspective: 1) you won't hear the extra noise at normal volumes at normal listening position - even playing digital silence 2) if there is ANY music playing you definitely won't hear it! 3) The SNR of the best vinyl replay is 60dB, the best cassette decks managed 65dB (just), the best Pro RTR tape decks (properly aligned, with new tape!) could do 75dB... so 81dB is well higher than any of those. This is why you won't hear it. Exactly. At 80 (on the new Transporter scale) you are not attenuating a normal range for volume control. On my system (where volume is in dB) my lstening range is about 24dB (60 to 85dB). On the transporter scale that would be about 100 down to 50 for that same delta range. Dropping down to 80 is not really a legit range to test if you use that as your primary volume control. You attenuated only by 10dB (1.6bits). And with that test you probably only lose a little over .5 bits. .5 bits loss is hard to hear. You can hear it but it's hard. But if you swing your delta volume in digital over a normal range in dB (e.g. +/- 12dB). You will have severe dynamic range loss. I was not aware the Transporter has such a small step, because I learned long ago even on squeezebox to ALWAYS disable it. I was thinking you dropped 20dB not 10dB and didn't hear it. If you only drop 10dB it would be difficult to hear on a good DAC. You want enough range for playing the softess CD at the highest level to the loudest CD the lowest. For me that takes 24dB of range. (That's 50 steps on Transporter). 80 to 100 (that only +/- 5dB) is way too narrow range as a Volume control. It sound like you do use and anlog preamp and are experimenting. You need to simulate what a realistic range that would be needed over a wide range of needs over a wide range of music. Some folks will want more range some will get by with less. I actually use more range than 24dB but I limited it to a range where I would care and expect to still hear good detail. If I were to repeat your test and switch to digital Volume on transporter. I'd set my Analog Gain around 90 (to simulate no Preamp). And I would probably need to use 50 - 100 on Transporter (to get 24dB) of volume range. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Great example of why you want ALL your dynamic range. This IS Marching bands and Brahms lullaby in the same tune, BUT NOT AT THE SAME TIME !! http://softronix.com/pictures/levelperfect/poco%20allegro.jpg -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
audiomuze;542825 Wrote: Please could you share the titles so that I can avoid inadvertently acquiring them in my travels? I don't have access to my library at present, but I seem to recall the DVD-Audio of Eagles - Hotel California is one of them. You will never learn to truly enjoy music thinking that way. I was gonna say this is too funny. But serioulsy it's sad that you're misunderstanding the insignificance of this level of clipping. Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
audiomuze;542825 Wrote: Please could you share the titles so that I can avoid inadvertently acquiring them in my travels? I don't have access to my library at present, but I seem to recall the DVD-Audio of Eagles - Hotel California is one of them. Yes - Fragile is the only one that I have that is really badly mastered... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
I thought I would just follow this thread rather than continue to contribute, but I'm having trouble understanding the various viewpoints now... and we seem to have moved on to a discussion of clipping which different people seem to define in different ways?. My view is: 1) getting tracks that peak at 0dB is good - but what really matters is the desired relative energy (perceived loudness) of the track as whole - peaks need to be studied to understand their nature - what causes them and what treatment if any do they require 2) getting tracks that clip (ie want to carry a sample value greater than 0dB but obviously can't) is bad 3) there are several ways to avoid clipping 4) It is often the case that in a track at mixdown you can end up with a handful of samples that would exceed 0dB if you didn't do something. If you force THOSE samples below 0dB (limit or compress them, manually or via software/hardware) the average energy of the track can be preserved, which is important as this track needs to be (relatively) level balanced against the other tracks and you don't want to restrict the dynamic range on the whole album just because of one track... 5)You probably won't see many tracks with the characteristics of 4 above in the wild because they will have been dealt with in mastering... 6)using digital clipping to achieve 4 is the worst/laziest way of doing it 7)It IS true that you won't hear digital clipping if it only affects a handful of sporadic samples across a track 8)The progressive limiting on the Hurt track is an artistic choice - it enables the song to build to a more intense climax before the resolution. This is NOT poor production! 9) Hotel California is a great-sounding DVD-A. The title track contains a magic moment at 3:28 where the whole track is subject to a hard -40dB fade-to-black giving the effect of silence - at this point the LSB's are ruthlessly exposed! Given that the snare drums are peaking at 0dB, this means that - taken as a whole - this is one of the few tracks that actually exploits nearly the full available dynamic range (actually SNR)... On a casual listen it sounds like they muted the main bus @ 3:28 - but examine that region carefully and you'll see that isn't what they did! 10) as a final experiment, I set up my two (unused) SB3's synced with their s/pdifs into 2 s/pdif inputs on my 5103. One was set too max vol, the other to vol=80. The amp inputs were then calibrated to compensate (the 5103 lets you programme gain in 1dB steps). I downsampled the Hotel California track to 24/48 with SOX. Switching between the inputs reveals no audible difference to me. Recording the output from the 5103 (via its DAC and tape out) and diffing them reveals an expected increase in noise floor but otherwise no difference. Even at 3:28 you can't hear the noise floor increase... So to conclude, I have no idea what you guys that insist on vol=max are hearing (or not hearing?) but I can't recreate it here. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;542833 Wrote: Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at you. I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant listening experience. -- audiomuze 'Cable break-in is real, and occurs between the ears of the listener - nowhere else (most certainly not in the cable).' (http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm) '*last.fm*' (http://www.last.fm/user/audiomuze) audiomuze's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33613 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
On 03/05/10 09:41, audiomuze wrote: mswlogo;542833 Wrote: Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. O On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at you. I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant listening experience. I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed sound while others prefer a more natural sound. This is personal preference. I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
audiomuze;542857 Wrote: On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at you. I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant listening experience. Then I would have a closer look at your system than the disks. I am never tempted to turn it down. I have 18 amps, 18 DACs, one for every frequency/single driver. It sounds like heaven. I have about 20 DVDAs but I don't own Fragile. Stay away from blue-man group. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Robin Bowes;542877 Wrote: On 03/05/10 09:41, audiomuze wrote: mswlogo;542833 Wrote: Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. O On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at you. I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant listening experience. I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed sound while others prefer a more natural sound. This is personal preference. I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former. R. Now we are discussing personal taste! - I find the Mo-Fi boring by comparison - each to their own. I doubt any of us would mix/master any given album identically... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh;542853 Wrote: I thought I would just follow this thread rather than continue to contribute, but I'm having trouble understanding the various viewpoints now... and we seem to have moved on to a discussion of clipping which different people seem to define in different ways?. My view is: 7)It IS true that you won't hear digital clipping if it only affects a handful of sporadic samples across a track. I agree with most of your points. Your point here is all I was saying when folks jumped all over it because they ran out of ideas in explaining why ditgital attenution doesn't cost anything. Your right it may be one track in an album. Or few. It's worth losing skeep over. If I see a whole album with say 3dB or more headroom. I concider that being lazy. Than clipping few audible peaks because they don't it that close by accident. Re: Topic of attenuation. if your happy with 14bits at 80 volume. All the power to ya. That test that was posted says it all. Some ears/systems may not notice it but others will. -- mswlogo XP Cat5 Transporter/DuetController SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC, DSP5000 XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000 XP Cat5 DuetReceiver SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000 'My Transporter Setup' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45) 'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) mswlogo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9090 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Robin Bowes;542877 Wrote: On 03/05/10 09:41, audiomuze wrote: mswlogo;542833 Wrote: Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. O On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at you. I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant listening experience. I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed sound while others prefer a more natural sound. This is personal preference. I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former. R. To be really picky, unless you are talking about a crossed-pair 2-track recording (or a soundfield job) in a real ambience with no EQ, reverb etc there is no natural... there is just engineered... :-) Most people wouldn't like the natural (untreated) sound of a pop/rock band without EQ and (especially) compression! And before anyone says What about the Beatles? - their early recordings have all manner of EQ, compression etc on them - much of it enforced by the microphones, mixing consoles, guitars, amplifiers and tape decks of the day - you couldn't get a neutral sound to build from so you had to work round that. The reason they sound good? - a lot of care was taken in the performance, recording, mixing and mastering. This was a long time before the fix it in the mix mentality became popular... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Robin Bowes;542877 Wrote: On 03/05/10 09:41, audiomuze wrote: mswlogo;542833 Wrote: Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. O On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at you. I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant listening experience. I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed sound while others prefer a more natural sound. This is personal preference. I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former. R. To be really picky, unless you are talking about a crossed-pair 2-track recording (or a soundfield job) in a real ambience with no EQ, reverb etc there is no natural... there is just engineered... :-) Most people wouldn't like the natural (untreated) sound of a pop/rock band without EQ and (especially) compression! And before anyone says What about the Beatles? - their early recordings have all manner of EQ, compression etc on them - much of it enforced by the microphones, mixing consoles, guitars, amplifiers and tape decks of the day - you couldn't get a neutral sound to build from so you had to work round that. The reason they sound good? - a lot of care was taken in the performance, recording, mixing and mastering. This was a long time before the fix it in the mix mentality became popular... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;542880 Wrote: I agree with most of your points. Your point here is all I was saying when folks jumped all over it because they ran out of ideas in explaining why ditgital attenution doesn't cost anything. Your right it may be one track in an album. Or a few. It's not worth losing skeep over. If I see a whole album with say 3dB or more headroom. I consider that being lazy. Than clipping a few inaudible peaks because they didn't cut it that close by accident. Re: Topic of attenuation. if you're happy with 14bits at 80 volume. All the power to ya. That test that was posted says it all. Some ears/systems may not notice it but others will. I think we are close (ish) to agreeing. (24-bit) Digital Attenuation costs SNR (nothing else). Can you hear 10-20dB of it? Depends on several things but predominantly it depends on the average energy level of the track - if it is a very quiet track you MIGHT hear the increased noise floor relative to the track content. On a track with 0dB peaks and an average level -40dB... I can't. Fortunately that's 99.9% of my collection - I'm still looking for ones that might meet these criteria. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
On 03/05/10 12:16, Phil Leigh wrote: To be really picky, unless you are talking about a crossed-pair 2-track recording (or a soundfield job) in a real ambience with no EQ, reverb etc there is no natural... there is just engineered... :-) Yes, that's true, but some recordings can sound more natural than others. Most people wouldn't like the natural (untreated) sound of a pop/rock band without EQ and (especially) compression! Also true, and I'm not suggesting that I don't like pop/rock bands that use compression - far from it! I don't, for example, expect a natural sound from AC/DC or Jimi Hendrix :) And before anyone says What about the Beatles? - their early recordings have all manner of EQ, compression etc on them - much of it enforced by the microphones, mixing consoles, guitars, amplifiers and tape decks of the day - you couldn't get a neutral sound to build from so you had to work round that. The reason they sound good? - a lot of care was taken in the performance, recording, mixing and mastering. This was a long time before the fix it in the mix mentality became popular... The reason they sound good? Because they were damned good songs, perfectly arranged. I have some Beatles multitracks, ie. copies of the 4-track used before mixdown and it's plain to hear that not a lot is done in the mix - all the good stuff is on the tape. Funnily enough, on Friday night I popped in to a local pub who had a Beatles/60s tribute band playing. They were basically just 4 blokes in their 50s, average musicians - 4-piece, drums, bass, 2 x guitar, three vox singing the harmonies. The Beatles songs sounded simply superb. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;542777 Wrote: Because if it was 50% of the log scale that would be 48dB and I assure you the SqueezeBox DAC would not output the low 16bits of the DAC that well. Totally misleading. No, it is 0.5db reduction per step downwards from 100 (0db) to 1 (-49.5db) then at 0 silence. mswlogo;542880 Wrote: I agree with most of your points. Your point here is all I was saying when folks jumped all over it because they ran out of ideas in explaining why ditgital attenution doesn't cost anything. Your right it may be one track in an album. Or a few. It's not worth losing skeep over. If I see a whole album with say 3dB or more headroom. I consider that being lazy. Than clipping a few inaudible peaks because they didn't cut it that close by accident. Re: Topic of attenuation. if you're happy with 14bits at 80 volume. All the power to ya. That test that was posted says it all. Some ears/systems may not notice it but others will. Your calculations are wrong. 50 volume is -25db (not -48db). Do your calculations all over again and (not that I have to tell you this) get back to us. Let's see once you re-do your calculations whether your opinion is just the same. I know what I'm betting. Darren -- darrenyeats http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503. (Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1 (caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700 Sennheiser HD 25-1 II darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Robin Bowes;542890 Wrote: On 03/05/10 12:16, Phil Leigh wrote: To be really picky, unless you are talking about a crossed-pair 2-track recording (or a soundfield job) in a real ambience with no EQ, reverb etc there is no natural... there is just engineered... :-) Yes, that's true, but some recordings can sound more natural than others. Most people wouldn't like the natural (untreated) sound of a pop/rock band without EQ and (especially) compression! Also true, and I'm not suggesting that I don't like pop/rock bands that use compression - far from it! I don't, for example, expect a natural sound from AC/DC or Jimi Hendrix :) And before anyone says What about the Beatles? - their early recordings have all manner of EQ, compression etc on them - much of it enforced by the microphones, mixing consoles, guitars, amplifiers and tape decks of the day - you couldn't get a neutral sound to build from so you had to work round that. The reason they sound good? - a lot of care was taken in the performance, recording, mixing and mastering. This was a long time before the fix it in the mix mentality became popular... The reason they sound good? Because they were damned good songs, perfectly arranged. I have some Beatles multitracks, ie. copies of the 4-track used before mixdown and it's plain to hear that not a lot is done in the mix - all the good stuff is on the tape. Funnily enough, on Friday night I popped in to a local pub who had a Beatles/60s tribute band playing. They were basically just 4 blokes in their 50s, average musicians - 4-piece, drums, bass, 2 x guitar, three vox singing the harmonies. The Beatles songs sounded simply superb. R. Don't disagree with any of this... my Beatles point was that the multi-tracks are inherently pre-eq'd by the nature of the equipment in use at the time (ie it wasn't a bunch of post-recording FX). Also they didn't have the luxury of digital reverb and spring/tank reverb had to be used sparingly... Those Abbey Road guys in lab coats who wouldn't let the meters into the red - they knew what they were doing... Yes of course the songs were well written/arranged/produced - that always helps cover over any technical issues :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Robin Bowes;542877 Wrote: I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed sound while others prefer a more natural sound. This is personal preference. I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former. R.That's probably what what it is. As I mostly listen to albums I've usually got replaygain disabled, so when you get to something that's lot louder than what you've just been listening to it's rather jarring. OTOH, I find the LPCM DVD rip of When Hell Freezes Over to be a great listen - definitely not overbearing, lots of subtlety and plenty headroom to really turn it up if you're in the mood. -- audiomuze 'Cable break-in is real, and occurs between the ears of the listener - nowhere else (most certainly not in the cable).' (http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm) '*last.fm*' (http://www.last.fm/user/audiomuze) audiomuze's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33613 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
mswlogo;542878 Wrote: Then I would have a closer look at your system than the disks.I'm quite confident the problem lies neither in my system nor my listening environment. Like Robin says, I think it's down to personal preference. I tend not to like compressed music, but that doesn't mean that I don't turn it up myself when the mood strikes me. -- audiomuze 'Cable break-in is real, and occurs between the ears of the listener - nowhere else (most certainly not in the cable).' (http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm) '*last.fm*' (http://www.last.fm/user/audiomuze) audiomuze's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33613 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control
Phil Leigh wrote: Don't disagree with any of this... my Beatles point was that the multi-tracks are inherently pre-eq'd by the nature of the equipment in use at the time Cute phrase. That is what all the knobs on studio consoles are for, many of them are a per-track EQ. You setup the EQ and hit record. Perhaps a few guys would ride the EQ, but most of the time it was set and left alone. The big point about Beatles era recording was that it was done to tape, and all analog tape has a built in soft limit, hit it too hard, and it doesn't go all square wave, it just gets nearly flat. Using the natural roll off of an analog tape was part of the art of audio engineering. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles