subject:"\[SlimDevices\: Audiophiles\] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control"


I've been thinking about Darren's comments on the DSP x-overs...

I'm not sure of the block diagram of the Meridian DSP speakers, but
with any multi-way speaker the driver sensitivities are usally
different by a small number of dB. One of the benefits of (any form of)
active crossover is that this can be taken care of - and response
flattened - in the x-over at line level.

Given that the DSP's have digital x-overs... and that a digital x-over
(unlike an analogue one) cannot boost (0dB!)...

IF the drivers need to be adjusted for relative sensitivity (which is
almost certain) then there are 2 ways Meridian could do this:
1) by altering the relative ANALOGUE gain of the power amps, post
x-over
2) reducing the level of all of them DIGITALLY by different amounts...

If they used method 2... then regardless of what you put in, you won't
get 96dB of SNR/Dynamic Range out on redbook material.

Hypothetical example - let's say the bass and tweeter have
sensitivities of 90dB but the midrange has one of 87dB.

The Bass and Tweeter will need 3dB of attenuation. This is ignoring any
additonal DSP (ie attenuation!) required to flatten the in-band
frequency response of the individual drivers themselves.

They could be using a hybrid approach with make-up gain in the analogue
power amps as well as DSP attenuation.

Therefore the problem/issue that mswlogo is describing may well be
confined to / exacerbated by the Meridian implementation. 

This is all speculation - but it would explain the differences in
opinion/findings in this thread!


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-07 Thread darrenyeats

Phil Leigh;544239 Wrote:
I've been thinking about Darren's comments on the DSP x-overs...

I'm not sure of the block diagram of the Meridian DSP speakers, but
with any multi-way speaker the driver sensitivities are usally
different by a small number of dB. One of the benefits of (any form of)
active crossover is that this can be taken care of - and response
flattened - in the x-over at line level.

Given that the DSP's have digital x-overs... and that a digital x-over
(unlike an analogue one) cannot boost (0dB!)...

IF the drivers need to be adjusted for relative sensitivity (which is
almost certain) then there are 2 ways Meridian could do this:
1) by altering the relative ANALOGUE gain of the power amps, post
x-over
2) reducing the level of some of them DIGITALLY by different
amounts...

If they used method 2... then regardless of what you put in, you won't
get 96dB of SNR/Dynamic Range out on redbook material.

Hypothetical example - let's say the bass and tweeter have
sensitivities of 90dB but the midrange has one of 87dB.

The Bass and Tweeter will need 3dB of attenuation. This is ignoring any
additonal DSP (ie attenuation!) required to flatten the in-band
frequency response of the individual drivers themselves.

They could be using a hybrid approach with make-up gain in the analogue
power amps as well as DSP attenuation.

Therefore the problem/issue that mswlogo is describing may well be
confined to/exacerbated by the Meridian implementation.

This is all speculation - but it would explain the differences in
opinion/findings in this thread!
Exactly, thanks Phil. I think even with analogue boosting each
crossover band, which is best case, you're still left with DSP EQ
in-band - shifting bits down (in some or perhaps much of the frequency
range).
Darren

--
darrenyeats

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

(Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1
(caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700
Sennheiser HD 25-1 II

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


darrenyeats;544251 Wrote: 
 
 Edit: I have said all this already but I'm not complaining. In fact I'm
 pleased that someone else has looked at it and come to similar
 conclusions - it means that I'm not going crazy! LOL.
 Darren

Sorry - Darren - didn't mean to repeat you!


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


darrenyeats;544251 Wrote: 
 Exactly, thanks Phil. I think even with analogue boosting each crossover
 band, which is best case, you're still left with DSP EQ in-band -
 shifting bits down (in some or perhaps much of the frequency range) -
 as you say.
 
 Edit: I have said all this already but I'm not complaining. In fact I'm
 pleased that someone else has looked at it and come to similar
 conclusions - it means that I'm not going crazy! LOL.
 Darren

You guys are willing to grab at anything to explain this.

I guess you missed the transporter test that doesn't exactly trounce
the squeezebox, does it? Only slightly better.

But I'm sure that's f'ked up too for some reason.


-- 
mswlogo

XP  Cat5  Transporter/DuetController  SPDIF  Meridian G68  DSP6000,
DSP5500HC, DSP5000
XP  Cat5  SB3  SPDIF  Meridian DSP5000
XP  Cat5  DuetReceiver  SPDIF  Meridian G91  DSP5000

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(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45)
'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


darrenyeats;544251 Wrote: 
 Exactly, thanks Phil. I think even with analogue boosting each crossover
 band, which is best case, you're still left with DSP EQ in-band -
 shifting bits down (in some or perhaps much of the frequency range) -
 as you say.
 
 Edit: I have said all this already but I'm not complaining. In fact I'm
 pleased that someone else has looked at it and come to similar
 conclusions - it means that I'm not going crazy! LOL.
 Darren

You guys are willing to grab at anything to explain this.

I guess you missed the transporter test that doesn't exactly trounce
the squeezebox, does it? Only slightly better.

But I'm sure that's f'ked up too for some reason.


-- 
mswlogo

XP  Cat5  Transporter/DuetController  SPDIF  Meridian G68  DSP6000,
DSP5500HC, DSP5000
XP  Cat5  SB3  SPDIF  Meridian DSP5000
XP  Cat5  DuetReceiver  SPDIF  Meridian G91  DSP5000

'My Transporter Setup'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45)
'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;544265 Wrote: 
 You guys are willing to grab at anything to explain this.
 
 I guess you missed the transporter test that doesn't exactly trounce
 the squeezebox, does it? Only slightly better.
 
 But I'm sure that's f'ked up too for some reason.

erm - I'm not trying to explain anything...I'm trying to get to the
bottom of why you feel it so important not to attenuate anything
digitally at all in YOUR setup, whilst other people (including me) have
no issue with the concept, because they can't hear anything very bad
happening.

I'm pretty certain it isn't because you have golden ears or magic
equipment or voodoo recordings!

I'm doing some experiments with Omnia Sel Temperat from Carmina Burana
- this is an incredibly quiet redbook recording, with a peak level of
-33db!

If I'm following you correctly, any attenuaton of this track would
decimate it?


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


Phil Leigh;544274 Wrote: 
 erm - I'm not trying to explain anything...I'm trying to get to the
 bottom of why you feel it so important not to attenuate anything
 digitally at all in YOUR setup, whilst other people (including me) have
 no issue with the concept, because they can't hear anything very bad
 happening.
 
 I'm pretty certain it isn't because you have golden ears or magic
 equipment or voodoo recordings!
 
 I'm doing some experiments with Omnia Sel Temperat from Carmina Burana
 - this is an incredibly quiet redbook recording, with a peak level of
 -33db!
 
 If I'm following you correctly, any attenuaton of this track would
 decimate it?

Thanks for trying.

Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There
is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said,
Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max.


-- 
mswlogo

XP  Cat5  Transporter/DuetController  SPDIF  Meridian G68  DSP6000,
DSP5500HC, DSP5000
XP  Cat5  SB3  SPDIF  Meridian DSP5000
XP  Cat5  DuetReceiver  SPDIF  Meridian G91  DSP5000

'My Transporter Setup'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45)
'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


Phil Leigh;544274 Wrote: 
 erm - I'm not trying to explain anything...I'm trying to get to the
 bottom of why you feel it so important not to attenuate anything
 digitally at all in YOUR setup, whilst other people (including me) have
 no issue with the concept, because they can't hear anything very bad
 happening.
 
 I'm pretty certain it isn't because you have golden ears or magic
 equipment or voodoo recordings!
 
 I'm doing some experiments with Omnia Sel Temperat from Carmina Burana
 - this is an incredibly quiet redbook recording, with a peak level of
 -33db!
 
 If I'm following you correctly, any attenuaton of this track would
 decimate it?

Thanks for trying.

Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There
is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said,
Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max.


-- 
mswlogo

XP  Cat5  Transporter/DuetController  SPDIF  Meridian G68  DSP6000,
DSP5500HC, DSP5000
XP  Cat5  SB3  SPDIF  Meridian DSP5000
XP  Cat5  DuetReceiver  SPDIF  Meridian G91  DSP5000

'My Transporter Setup'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45)
'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


http://www.mlssa.com/pdf/Upsampling-theory-rev-2.pdf
Last para, page 4.


There was some mention earlier of all bits not being equal... indeed
not.
It would seem in fact the best bits are not the MSB's, because they
exhibit the most differential non-linearity (aka one form of digital
distortion).

So it would seem advisable to trade off some SNR for that distortion.
After all we humans are highly tolerant of non-correlated broadband
noise (Brahms/Band, hiss etc) and highly intolerant of any sort of
digital (i.e. unnatural) distortion such as jitter or DNL.

So maybe it is better to keep our peaks away from the MSB...


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-07 Thread darrenyeats


mswlogo;544265 Wrote: 
 I guess you missed the transporter test that doesn't exactly trounce the
 squeezebox, does it? Only slightly better.
mswlogo, I was looking for that but I couldn't find it. Can you send a
link please?
Darren


-- 
darrenyeats

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

(Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1
(caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700
Sennheiser HD 25-1 II

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-07 Thread darrenyeats


mswlogo;544284 Wrote: 
 Thanks for trying.
 
 Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There
 is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said,
 Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max.
Yeah, probably because the DSP crossovers are pushing the signal partly
under the SNR window as you put it earlier in the thread, of your
DACs. I thought we explained that.

None of the other technical aspects covered in this thread explain it,
IMO. Unless someone wants to pipe in with new information.
Darren


-- 
darrenyeats

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

(Inguz bass EQ'd) SB3 - (pre bypassed) Krell KAV-300i - PMC AB-1
(caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700
Sennheiser HD 25-1 II

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-07 Thread Robin Bowes

On 07/05/10 14:18, mswlogo wrote:
 
 Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well.
 There is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and
 said, Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max.

Can you please at least do us the courtesy of reading what we actually
say? Phil did *not* say nobody else hears it; he said:

...whilst other people (including me) have no issue with the concept,
because they can't hear anything very bad happening.

ie. he can't hear anything bad, and he knows others that can't hear
anything bad.

This is not the same as saying nobody else hears it.

R.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;544284 Wrote: 
 Thanks for trying.
 
 Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There
 is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said,
 Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max.

Nobody has successfully demonstrated a DBT that supports that... just
saying it doesn't make it true :-)


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;544284 Wrote: 
 Thanks for trying.
 
 Please stop saying nobody else hears it on their setup as well. There
 is at least half a dozen folks that jumped in along the way and said,
 Yup I hear too on my system, and always use Max.

Nobody has successfully demonstrated a DBT that supports that... just
saying it doesn't make it true :-)


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=77725

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


darrenyeats;544295 Wrote: 
 mswlogo, I was looking for that but I couldn't find it. Can you send a
 link please? Edit: found it in related thread.
 
 Too? Has someone claimed something else is f'ked up?
 Darren

Actually it just may be. But willing to admit errors unlike some
folks.

I plan to run it with better unbalanced cables and making sure they are
no where near AC cables (which I have all shielded) and I'll try to run
it on balanced as well. I normally don't run analog on anything. Only
place is within my DSP speakers.

The Soundcard and Laptop were all on battery power. And other tests
using that setup were much cleaner. I should have noticed the 60hz. But
it was late.

I doubt it's the transporter. So I suspect the analog cable picked it
up.


-- 
mswlogo

XP  Cat5  Transporter/DuetController  SPDIF  Meridian G68  DSP6000,
DSP5500HC, DSP5000
XP  Cat5  SB3  SPDIF  Meridian DSP5000
XP  Cat5  DuetReceiver  SPDIF  Meridian G91  DSP5000

'My Transporter Setup'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45)
'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-06 Thread Phil Leigh


mswlogo;543643 Wrote: 
 Cool. Thanks.
 
 Do you know what aplies it? Hardware (Transporter) or SlimServer
 plugin?
 
 Does Transporter have to be below MAX in order for Replay Gain to
 boost? That's doee there have to headroom?
 
 Does it apply dither?
 
 I'd like to boost some CD's up to full scale (say +3dB or +6dB). But I
 will keep Transporter on Max.
 
 Can it still apply +6dB?

Replaygain quick 101:

1) using something like Foobar will calculate the correct RG tags to
achieve an RMS loudness of 89dB for each album. Separate tags are
written (in each track) for the track on its own and for the album as a
set of tracks.
2) Using the SmartGain option in SBS allows albums to play back with
the correct relative loudness between tracks AND for random tracks
across albums to play at equivalent loudness
3) Using Foobar to scan whole albums at a time avoids any clipping -
track peaks are scanned and the album gain for each track is set
accordingly
4) the RG tags are interpreted by SBS but applied in the player before
the volume control settings are applied. RG has no knowledge of the
volume settings. There is no need to dither as there is no change in
bit-depth connected to RG itself and no complex DSP is involved.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


Phil Leigh;543838 Wrote: 
 Replaygain quick 101:
 
 1) using something like Foobar will calculate the correct RG tags to
 achieve an RMS loudness of 89dB for each album. Separate tags are
 written (in each track) for the track on its own and for the album as a
 set of tracks.
 2) Using the SmartGain option in SBS allows albums to play back with
 the correct relative loudness between tracks AND for random tracks
 across albums to play at equivalent loudness
 3) Using Foobar to scan whole albums at a time avoids any clipping -
 track peaks are scanned and the album gain for each track is set
 accordingly
 4) the RG tags are interpreted by SBS but applied in the player before
 the volume control settings are applied. RG has no knowledge of the
 volume settings. There is no need to dither as there is no change in
 bit-depth connected to RG itself and no complex DSP is involved.
 
 You could apply a fixed RG tag of +6dB to all tracks (and risk much
 clipping) or you could let RG calculate the tags first and then edit
 them to suit you.

Thanks for the info.

I'd only apply +6dB gain if Replay Gain says I have that much headroom
in the whole album (i.e. Peak_Album  0.50)

To bad there is no mode to simply say Full Scale Album basically add
as much gain as the peak_album tag says there is room for. That's
exactly what the amplify in Audacity defaults to.

I use dbPowerAmp to add Replay Gain tags. dpPoweramp also has a Volume
Normalize that does what ReplayGain does but also has the option to set
Full Scale per track (not per album). They call it Peak to Peak.
Meaning put Peak Data at the Peak of the Word (or DAC). But I don't
want to do that per track. But per album.


-- 
mswlogo

XP  Cat5  Transporter/DuetController  SPDIF  Meridian G68  DSP6000,
DSP5500HC, DSP5000
XP  Cat5  SB3  SPDIF  Meridian DSP5000
XP  Cat5  DuetReceiver  SPDIF  Meridian G91  DSP5000

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543842 Wrote: 
 I'd only apply +6dB gain if Replay Gain says I have that much headroom
 in the whole album (i.e. Peak_Album  0.50)
 
 To bad there is no mode to simply say Full Scale Album basically add
 as much gain as the peak_album tag says there is room for. That's
 exactly what the amplify in Audacity defaults to.
It sounds as if you'd like to use ReplayGain as a way of peak
normalising your albums. That's not what RG is for - it is specifically
aimed at equalising the perceived loudness during playback amongst
albums (or tracks). Incidentally, RG doesn't just use RMS level to
calculate loudness - it uses the Fletcher-Munson response curve. If you
want to peak normalise, you can do that easily with an audio editor
(such as Audacity), and you won't then be dependant on having a
RG-aware playback device.

But something is bothering me. From what you say, it appears that you
believe that if you have a track/album that peaks at -6dB (ie. 50%),
and you apply 6dB of digital gain to it (whether by normalisation or
with ReplayGain), then you'll increase its dynamic range. It does
nothing of the sort, of course. It will increase the source file's
noise by 6dB along with the signal. And since the noise floor in the
file is almost certainly way higher than that in your DAC, you won't
gain any benefit from the fact that you're now using an extra bit in
the DAC.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


cliveb;543849 Wrote: 
 It sounds as if you'd like to use ReplayGain as a way of peak
 normalising your albums. That's not what RG is for - it is specifically
 aimed at equalising the perceived loudness during playback amongst
 albums (or tracks). Incidentally, RG doesn't just use RMS level to
 calculate loudness - it uses the Fletcher-Munson response curve. If you
 want to peak normalise, you can do that easily with an audio editor
 (such as Audacity), and you won't then be dependant on having a
 RG-aware playback device.
 
 But something is bothering me. From what you say, it appears that you
 believe that if you have a track/album that peaks at -6dB (ie. 50%),
 and you apply 6dB of digital gain to it (whether by normalisation or
 with ReplayGain), then you'll increase its dynamic range. It does
 nothing of the sort, of course. It will increase the source file's
 noise by 6dB along with the signal. And since the noise floor in the
 file is almost certainly way higher than that in your DAC, you won't
 gain any benefit from the fact that you're now using an extra bit in
 the DAC.

Using audacity would be insane. dbpoweramp can do a whole library to
full scale in 5 clicks. But I want to do it by album. I managed to find
all albums over 6dB attenuated and boost them by 6dB. Took a few more
clicks. But I'd be doing it for month using audacity.

You're really having a hard time grasping this full scale stuff aren't
you.

If what you're saying were true, this test would have the same dynamic
range for all attenuation levels. It doesn't. Notice dynamic range
DECREASES with digital attenuation.

http://mysite.verizon.net/forumwebspace/RightMark/Test%20Reports/Volume.htm

It will INCREASE with digital gain up to full scale.

You're not really increasing/decreasing, your just putting the data in
the best performing part of the DAC. Peak to Peak as dBPowerAmp calls
it. You're not getting more bits. If it's over attenuated they are gone.
But you can move them up to the best part of the DAC.

Yes, noise is a big part of it.

When you push your data down, your pushing low bits it into noisier
(poorer performing bits) of the DAC. Then you increase the gain in
analog to get the level you want to hear, amplifying that lower bit
NOISE. By bringing it up you move the data away from the noising bits
and you bring your analog gain down to the level you want attenuating
the noise of the low bits.

All bits of a DAC are not equal. If they were equal (perfect) that test
woould have the same dynamic range for all attenuation levels.

You are assuming a DAC is perfect, even at 20bits. It's not.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543857 Wrote: 
 You're really having a hard time grasping this full scale stuff aren't
 you.
Er, no. *YOU* are having a hard time grapsing that all these
theoretical issues have NO BEARING WHATSOEVER in a normal listening
situation.

mswlogo;543857 Wrote: 
 You're not really increasing/decreasing, your just putting the data in
 the best performing part of the DAC.
Quite so. But:
a). The noise floor of the programme material is vastly higher than the
DAC's own noise floor (and the point where DAC linearity degrades).
b). The listening environment will have a background noise level vastly
higher than the DAC's.
These two factors completely mask any benefit gained by operating the
DAC in its most linear range. (Within reason, of course. As always, it
is important to get the gain staging correct).

Here's your fundamental problem: you are unable to distinguish
perfectly valid theoretical issues from their real-world consequences.
You have heard an improvement in sound quality where there is none.
There's a very rational explanation for this: it's called expectation
bias.

mswlogo;543857 Wrote: 
 You are assuming a DAC is perfect, even at 20bits. It's not.
I never said that. What I have been at pains to explain to you is that
the imperfections of DACs operating in their non-linear ranges are
beneath the threshold of audibility in a normal listening situation.

The only way you were able to objectively demonstrate the degradation
that happens when a DAC is operating in its non-linear range was to
prepare an artificial sample and boost the analogue gain to insane
levels. As I said in my very first response to you, no sh*t,
Sherlock!. This is hardly a surprise to anyone. It's simply an extreme
example of what happens when the gain staging is wrong - very wrong in
this case.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

pfarrell;543694 Wrote:

Its not just rounding errors. Nearly all DSP is done by converting the
time-doman signal to the frequency domain using a FFT. DSP chips are
notable because they do a combined multiply-and-add function quickly,
usually massively parallel processing. Nearly all of the time, they
are
actually working on floating point numbers, not the 16 or 24 bit
integers that most audiophiles are used to talking about.

Yes, it's frequency domain stuff. Still, the Meridian document states
Meridians DSP loudspeakers utilise 48-bit internal fixed-point
resolution.
cliveb;543914 Wrote:
There's a very rational explanation for this: it's called expectation
bias.

I've suggested this but to my mind, at this point, there is another
possibility.

It seems to me that any crossover will do EQ. This is in-band. I'm not
referring to difference in levels between bands - these might be
implemented with analogue gain. I'm talking in-band, the necessarily
DSP bit, assuming you have a DSP-based crossover. LOL.

Anyway, EQ via DSP is done by attenuation - you can't boost above 0db,
you can only push frequencies down.

I suggest (it's just a suggestion because I'm not an engineer) that
this might cause the Meridian system to be more sensitive to digital
volume control - because it's ALREADY got digital attenuation inherent
in the system. The digital volume control after the crossovers is
pushing the signal perhaps below the 20 bit level altogether.

I agree with mswlogo that the lower bits are lower performing - it's
not a black and white thing like we tend to discuss it. However I
believe with something like a TP, Benchark DAC1 or similar the effects
of digital volume - starting with 0db being a comfortable listening
maximum - are not audible. However, I don't think starting with 0db
is a valid assumption for the Meridian system since db are lost (for
certainly some and perhaps much of the frequencies) in the DSP
crossovers.

If someone can provide more technical information to refute my
suggestion I would be happy to see it.
Darren

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


darrenyeats;543926 Wrote: 
 
 I agree with mswlogo that the lower bits are lower performing - it's
 not a black and white thing like we tend to discuss it. However, in the
 initial part of the attenuation the degradation is relatively small.
 Even the Squeezebox test results show this and I believe better DACs
 will have even lower degradation overall and especially in the initial
 region of attenuation. I believe with something like a TP, Benchark
 DAC1 or similar the effects of reasonable digital volume - starting
 with 0db being a comfortable listening maximum - will be measurably
 small and not audible.
 
 Darren

The SqueezeBox test as I read it says the degration is HUGE !! 4bits of
attenution (Volume 20 is 24dB) drops to 75dB dynamic range. Nearly 4bits
lost for 4bits of attenuation. It's practically behaving like a 16bit
DAC, that the low 8 bits don't even exist !!! It's behaving like a
16.2bit DAC.

If I did have a Perfect 16bit DAC. And attenuated 4bits. And there by
lost every I attenuted by, I'd get 72dB dynamic range, right? SqueezeBox
gets 75dB. You can't get much worse.

I agree other DACs will do better. But people keep referencing this
squeezebox test in defense as showing all is fine and it's showing it
couldn't be much worse.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-06 Thread Robin Bowes

On 06/05/10 14:33, mswlogo wrote:

 But people keep referencing this
 squeezebox test in defense as showing all is fine and it's showing it
 couldn't be much worse.

I actually pointed you at that test to point out that people were aware
of the digital volume degradation issue, rather than to demonstrate that
all is fine.

R.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

mswlogo;543939 Wrote:
The SqueezeBox test as I read it says the degration is HUGE !! 4bits of
attenution (Volume 20 is 24dB) drops to 75dB dynamic range. Nearly
4bits lost for 4bits of attenuation. It's practically behaving like a
16bit DAC, that the low 8 bits don't even exist !!! It's behaving like
a 16.5bit DAC.

If I did have a Perfect 16bit DAC. And attenuated 4bits. And there by
lost every I attenuated by, I'd get 72dB dynamic range (that's absolute
worse case), right? SqueezeBox gets 75dB. You can't get much worse.

I agree other DACs will do better. But people keep referencing this
squeezebox test in defense as showing all is fine and it's showing it
couldn't be much worse.
mswlogo,
Where do you get 4 bits of dynamic range lost from? Volume 20 is 25db
down (slightly more than 4 bits in fact) and 19.4db less dynamic range
(which is far nearer to 3 bits, isn't it?)

Much more importantly I suggest you look at the detail - the
degradation is not linear!
darrenyeats;543576 Wrote:
I think I see where you're coming from.

If you look at the tests volume 30 is 12.5db of attenuaton but the
result is only 7.1db reduction in dynamic range from 40 (max). This is
noticeably different to stepping from volume 30 to volume 20, a further
12.5db attenuation but which results in a more expected 11.7db reduction
in dynamic range.

Why is the initial drop off nowhere near 12.5db decibels?

I'm not an engineer but I do know this test was performed on a
Squeezebox which has an SNR of over 100db. Perhaps someone can step
in and explain why the initial drop off is less than 12.5db. Perhaps it
is to do with the DAC noise being a further 4db or so lower than -96db
(compared to a digital 0db signal)?

That's why I'm betting better DACs will do a lot better - in the
Squeezbox test I see the difference between going from 0db to -12.5db
(7.1 db dynamic range lost) and going from -12.5db to -25db (11.7db
dynamic range lost)...the effect is markedly different. I note that the
gap between 12.5db and 7.1db is about the difference between 96db and
the SNR of the Squeezebox (a bit more than 100db). Maybe someone can
explain if this is a real connection or not.

But it's not as simple as you say. Better DACs will degrade very
slightly to begin with, I think.
Darren

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-06 Thread Robin Bowes

On 06/05/10 14:51, darrenyeats wrote:
 
 Much more importantly I suggest you look at the detail - the
 degradation is not linear!

I seem to recall that the 0-40 attenuation curve was non-linear - it
changed a bit over the years, from what I recall.

That would explain why the degradtion is non-linear.

R.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

mswlogo;543939 Wrote:
It's practically behaving like a 16bit DAC, that the low 8 bits don't
even exist !!! It's behaving like a 16.5bit DAC.
Of course, it has a SNR of a bit more than 100db. Nearly 1 bit better
than 16 bits. The results make sense, nothing to do with how many bits
are in the DAC.

With such a SNR it could be 48 bit DAC digitally speaking but the
results would be the same! It is precisely an improved SNR (not more
bits) that will enable the extra bits to become meaningful. And reduce
the dynamic range lost from attenuation. Like in a TP or Bennchark
DAC1.

Robin Bowes;543951 Wrote:
On 06/05/10 14:51, darrenyeats wrote:

Much more importantly I suggest you look at the detail - the
degradation is not linear!

I seem to recall that the 0-40 attenuation curve was non-linear - it
changed a bit over the years, from what I recall.

That would explain why the degradtion is non-linear.

R.
I don't think that's it. I checked and the steps were 1.25 db each. (As
we all know, db are themselves not linear). Also the percentages look
right.
Darren

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


darrenyeats;543954 Wrote: 
 It has a SNR of a little more than 100db. Approaching 1 bit better
 than 16 bits. The results make sense to me, nothing to do with how many
 bits are in the DAC.
 
 With such a SNR it could be 48 bit DAC digitally speaking but the
 results would be the same! It is precisely an improved SNR (not more
 bits) that will improve performance to something like a 20 or 21 bit
 DAC. Like in a TP or Benchmark DAC1. The Squeezebox and TP/Benchmark
 DAC1 all use 24 bit DACs...isn't the difference between them down to
 something else?
 

I totally agree and that is probably a better way to look at it. It has
a fixed total SNR. 100dB. By attenuating digitally your sliding within a
100dB window. Which is what I said, 100dB is about 16.5bits. I think we
are on the same page there. I agree you can call it what ever you want
and what ever number of bits. It's 100dB window on taht DAC. And
basically you want to stay with in it (keep the bits of your CD within
it).

So on that unit you can attenuate about 3dB for free. That's all the
elbow room there is. Big whoop.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

mswlogo;543960 Wrote:
I totally agree and that is probably a better way to look at it. It has
a fixed total SNR. 100dB. By attenuating digitally your sliding within
a 100dB window. Which is what I said, 100dB is about 16.5bits. I think
we are on the same page there. I agree you can call it what ever you
want and what ever number of bits. It's 100dB window on taht DAC. And
basically you want to stay with in it (keep the bits of your CD within
it).

So on that unit you can attenuate about 3dB for free. That's all the
elbow room there is. Big whoop.
mswlogo,
Yes. I think this is the predominant effect, anyway. Of course, moving
bits down in any DAC brings the DAC's noise floor up but the point is,
if that's low enough to begin with (say -120db like in a TP) that's
still not a big effect compared to quantisation noise in a 16 bit
signal. So you lose a tad of fidelity but this has little impact
because the limitation of the 16 bit signal is the dominant factor in
that situation.

You're right though - the Squeezebox is limited. With my SB3 digital
attenuation will hurt dynamic range measurably. I don't hear it - but I
accept one might with certain systems and music. I will probably get
round to buying a Benchmark DAC1 or something but only when I upgrade
the rest!
Darren

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543960 Wrote: 
 I totally agree and that is probably a better way to look at it. It has
 a fixed total SNR. 100dB. By attenuating digitally your sliding within
 a 100dB window. Which is what I said, 100dB is about 16.5bits. I think
 we are on the same page there. I agree you can call it what ever you
 want and what ever number of bits. It's 100dB window on taht DAC. And
 basically you want to stay with in it (keep the bits of your CD within
 it).
 
 So on that unit you can attenuate about 3dB for free. That's all the
 elbow room there is. Big whoop.
You appear to be making the classic mistake of assuming you need as
much dynamic range when listening at low levels as you do when
listening at high levels. You don't.

If you need 100dB of dynamic range when listening at a peak level of
100dB SPL, then you only need 90dB dynamic range when listening at a
peak level of 90dB SPL. When you attenuate by 10dB to reduce the
listening level that much, you can afford to lose 10dB of dynamic
range. That's why it doesn't matter whether you do the attenuation by
digital or analogue means.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


cliveb;543993 Wrote: 
 You appear to be making the classic mistake of assuming you need as much
 dynamic range when listening at low levels as you do when listening at
 high levels. You don't.
 
 If you need 100dB of dynamic range when listening at a peak level of
 100dB SPL, then you only need 90dB dynamic range when listening at a
 peak level of 90dB SPL. When you attenuate by 10dB to reduce the
 listening level that much, you can afford to lose 10dB of dynamic
 range. That's why it doesn't matter whether you do the attenuation by
 digital or analogue means.

But you're making the classic mistake that music uses the full (or a
fixed) dynamic range all the time (Marching Bands and Brahms at the
same time). I don't care about that situation. I may have a Full
Scale tune blasting away at 90dB and it may change to using ANY number
of bits at ANY time. That's why I posted that Audacity screen shot a
dozen posts back. It swings from steady 6dB down to a steady 30dB down.
That tune shows it very visibly. But all tunes do that at a higher
frequency than that example shows.

Stop looking at it, as one sample at time.

Sure, the really LOUD samples will still have plenty of SNR. But the
quiet ones will get harmed more.

Now how fast ones ear responds to those changes in levels (how fast is
humans Automatic Gain Control) is up for debate. But the example I gave
shows it can be pretty darn slow and be needed.

So yeah if you have a tune that is bashing you at full scale all the
time, you won't notice a couple bits lost.

One smash of a symbol will start full scale and decay in amplitude. As
it decays the performance of those lower bits get more important.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

cliveb;543993 Wrote:
You appear to be making the classic mistake of assuming you need as much
dynamic range when listening at low levels as you do when listening at
high levels. You don't.

If you need 100dB of dynamic range when listening at a peak level of
100dB SPL, then you only need 90dB dynamic range when listening at a
peak level of 90dB SPL. When you attenuate by 10dB to reduce the
listening level that much, you can afford to lose 10dB of dynamic
range. That's why it doesn't matter whether you do the attenuation by
digital or analogue means.
I'm not sure about that, Clive. I think mswlogo has a point although I
would put it this way: human hearing adjusts to new sound levels. So
turning down the volume could actually enable you to hear quieter
sounds!

It's a bit academic for you though...you've got a TP so the limiting
factor for dynamic range will be the 16 bit signal noise, even with
20db of digital attenuation. DAC noise floor is incredibly low.

--
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


darrenyeats;543999 Wrote: 
 I'm not sure about that, Clive. I think mswlogo has a point (crazy
 thread mswlogo, crazy thread!) although I would put it this way: human
 hearing adjusts to new sound levels. So turning down the volume could
 actually enable you to hear quieter sounds!
 
 It's a bit academic for you though...you've got a TP so by far the
 dominant factor for dynamic range will be the 16 bit signal noise, even
 with 20db of digital attenuation. DAC noise floor is incredibly low.

They say humans have 120dB dynamic range. But that probably is not
instantanious. It can hear something very loud. And hear some very soft
a short time later.


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-06 Thread Phil Leigh


darrenyeats;543999 Wrote: 
 I'm not sure about that, Clive. I think mswlogo has a point (crazy
 thread mswlogo, crazy thread!) although I would put it this way: human
 hearing adjusts to new sound levels. So turning down the volume could
 actually enable you to hear quieter sounds!
 
 It's a bit academic for you though...you've got a TP so by far the
 dominant factor for dynamic range will be the 16 bit signal noise, even
 with 20db of digital attenuation. DAC noise floor is incredibly low.

Human AGC is quite slow to act. It won't track the levels in that
Offenbach example. It's not intended to be a fast-acting compressor -
we have an evolutionary need to differentiate loud/quiet to stay alive
(loud=near, quiet=far away to misquote Father Ted...) The rate at which
level changes tells us something about how fast the source is moving.
Two ears helps us determine direction of movement...


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543997 Wrote: 
 One smash of a symbol will start full scale and decay in amplitude. As
 it decays the performance of those lower bits get more important.
Yes, absolutely. As the cymbal crash dies away, the lower level detail
is no longer masked by the loud crash. Therefore you need accurate
reproduction of the lower bits to hear the subtle aspects. So we are in
agreement? Er, no...

Let's say you're listening to a piece of music and there's a cymbal
crash peaking at 100dB SPL, then it decays. Let's be extreme about this
and say there are decay details at 4dB SPL you need to be able to hear.
(We'll ignore for the moment that your lisening room can't possibly be
quiet enough). In order to hear those details, you need a system
capable of a 96dB dynamic range (ie. a full 16 bits). The voltage of
the signal at 4dB is 1/65536th of the voltage at 100dB. If the voltage
that delivers 100dB is 10V, the voltage that gives you 4dB is 0.152mV.

So far so good. Now turn the volume down, so the cymbal crash is at
94dB. The voltage to generate that level is half that required for
100dB: 5V. And so the subtle detail in the decay will now be playing at
0.076mV, which will give an output level 6dB lower than it was before,
ie. at -2dB SPL. But hang on - you can't hear anything beneath 0dB SPL.
Those subtle details that were audible in the decay when the peak level
was 100dB are not audible when the peak level is 94dB.

Once again: as you turn the volume down, the required dynamic range
reduces. I'm not talking about the changing levels within a track, I'm
talking about adjusting the playback level with a volume control. If 16
bits of resolution is enough when you're listening at 100% on the volume
control, then 15 bits will be enough when it's at 50% (assuming a linear
scale for simplicity). On the other hand, if your system/ear is
wonderful enough that you need 20bits at 100%, then you'll need 19 bits
at 50%. But the principle remains the same: to retain the same amount of
audibility of fine detail, as you reduce the playback level you can
afford to lose dynamic range.


-- 
cliveb

Transporter - ATC SCM100A

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

Phil Leigh;544008 Wrote:
Human AGC is quite slow to act. It won't track the levels in that
Offenbach example. It's not intended to be a fast-acting compressor -
we have an evolutionary need to differentiate loud/quiet to stay alive
(loud=near, quiet=far away to misquote Father Ted...) The rate at which
level changes tells us something about how fast the source is moving.
Two ears helps us determine direction of movement...
Agreed. As I said I was referring to turning down the volume, which is
a long-term change.

I've moved my position since the beginning of the thread on this point,
because of what I've read. No doubt.

I'm probably somewhere between your/Clive's position and mswlogo's in
that (a) I think the lower the volume the less requirement for dynamic
range but (b) I think human hearing does adjust to a certain degree
(not perfectly).

I would like to see more evidence or resources on this particular point
before saying any more. As I say, given 16 bit source material on a high
performing DAC this question is effectively moot.
Darren

--
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


cliveb;544011 Wrote: 
 Yes, absolutely. As the cymbal crash dies away, the lower level detail
 is no longer masked by the loud crash. Therefore you need accurate
 reproduction of the lower bits to hear the subtle aspects. So we are in
 agreement? Er, no...
 
 Let's say you're listening to a piece of music and there's a cymbal
 crash peaking at 100dB SPL, then it decays. Let's be extreme about this
 and say there are decay details at 4dB SPL you need to be able to hear.
 (We'll ignore for the moment that your lisening room can't possibly be
 quiet enough). In order to hear those details, you need a system
 capable of a 96dB dynamic range (ie. a full 16 bits). The voltage of
 the signal at 4dB is 1/65536th of the voltage at 100dB. If the voltage
 that delivers 100dB is 10V, the voltage that gives you 4dB is 0.152mV.
 
 So far so good. Now turn the volume down, so the cymbal crash is at
 94dB. The voltage to generate that level is half that required for
 100dB: 5V. And so the subtle detail in the decay will now be playing at
 0.076mV, which will give an output level 6dB lower than it was before,
 ie. at -2dB SPL. But hang on - you can't hear anything beneath 0dB SPL.
 Those subtle details that were audible in the decay when the peak level
 was 100dB are not audible when the peak level is 94dB.
 
 Once again: as you turn the volume down, the required dynamic range
 reduces. I'm not talking about the changing levels within a track, I'm
 talking about adjusting the playback level with a volume control. If 16
 bits of resolution is enough when you're listening at 100% on the volume
 control, then 15 bits will be enough when it's at 50% (assuming a linear
 scale for simplicity). On the other hand, if your system/ear is
 wonderful enough that you need 20bits at 100%, then you'll need 19 bits
 at 50%. But the principle remains the same: to retain the same amount of
 audibility of fine detail, as you reduce the playback level you can
 afford to lose dynamic range. (Edit - or rather: as you turn the
 playback level down, you can't hear as much fine detail, so you don't
 need as much dynamic range).

When you turn it down in analog your noise floor goes down with it (for
the most part). When you turn it down in digital it does not !!


-- 
mswlogo

XP  Cat5  Transporter/DuetController  SPDIF  Meridian G68  DSP6000,
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


One thing I think we are hung up on is.

Your saying the noise floor of the room is the limitation and I'm
saying it's the DAC.

You're also considering that floor as a discrete wall.

It's not really, that's the problem.

As you shift down ALL the bits perform progressively worse. Not just
the least significant one(s).


-- 
mswlogo

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-06 Thread Phil Leigh


mswlogo;544022 Wrote: 
 When you turn it down in analog your noise floor goes down with it (for
 the most part). When you turn it down in digital it does not !!

Not exactly - with digital attenuation, the noise floor of the
recording does go down but the noise floor of the DAC stays fixed. I
think this is the crux.
I think the noise floor of the recording always swamps that of the DAC.
This is certainly true of any recordings made before 1980, and most
recordings made up to the point when the SONY PCM1 recorder stopped
being state-of-the-art...

I'd go further and bet that no recordings made until the late 90's
achieved better that an 80dB noise floor.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


Phil Leigh;544035 Wrote: 
 Not exactly - with digital attenuation, the noise floor of the recording
 does go down but the noise floor of the DAC stays fixed. I think this is
 the crux.
 I think the noise floor of the recording always swamps that of the DAC.
 This is certainly true of any recordings made before 1980, and most
 recordings made up to the point when the SONY PCM1 recorder stopped
 being state-of-the-art...
 
 I'd go further and bet that no recordings made until the late 90's
 achieved better that an 80dB noise floor.

I can't argue that.

But keep in mind every attenuation shift cost is relative to what you
have.


-- 
mswlogo

XP  Cat5  Transporter/DuetController  SPDIF  Meridian G68  DSP6000,
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;544033 Wrote: 
 As you shift down ALL the bits perform progressively worse. Not just the
 least significant one(s).
Yes, yes, mswlogo, all the bits perform progressively worse! LOL.

May I add once more, if the quantisation noise of a 16 bit signal is at
-96db and you have a DAC with noise of -120db, that badness inherent
in the 16 bit signal utterly dominates the tiny degree of worseness
because of the DAC bit shift.

But we all agree on that I think? It depends how good the DAC is and
how far you shift down whether fidelity is affected (ranging from very
insignificantly to significantly).

I reckon a TP can perform the same as the squeeze...@100% in that
test after at least 3 bits shift downward. Will it perform better at
full range? My guess would be yes but only insignificantly so, assuming
a 16 bit signal.

Good night all!
Darren


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-05 Thread NewBuyer


mswlogo;543330 Wrote: 
 ...At 80 (on the new Transporter scale) you are not attenuating a
 normal range for volume control... Dropping down to 80 is not really
 a legit range to test... with that test you probably only lose a little
 over .5 bits... If you only drop 10dB it would be difficult to hear on a
 good DAC... 80 to 100 (that's only +/- 5dB) is way too narrow a range as
 a realistic Volume control...

Hi mswlogo, 
I'm just curious here please: So are you now saying, that when digital
attenuation is used -as a supplement- (i.e. as an additional 10db or
so) good analog attenuation, the never in your post title can be
dropped?


-- 
NewBuyer

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


I thought we had established that we are not losing detail until
you've shifted over 4 bits but raising the noise floor  out of the DAC
(so the quietest sounds get closer to it or even in extreme cases,
below it - although you can still hear them). Personally I reckon you
can lose 4 more bits than that before you can detect anything in a DBT
- we obviously don't agree on this but there have been many tests over
the years that indicate people have difficulty telling 16-bit from
16-bit reduced (properly) to 12 or even 10 bits.

Anyway, yes I am using an analogue pre-amp, and I have the Vol on
100... BUT I use Replaygain (which is the same as using the volume
control, with one important exception - it can also boost).



Across my collection the AlbumReplaygain range is -12dB /+5dB average.
So on the loudest albums (which are all heavily compressed loudness
wars victims) I'm using 12dB of digital attenuation. On the quietest,
I'm boosting the level (pre-dac) by 5dB.

I don't believe this has any audible effect other than changing the
level.

I don't believe that may people on this forum advocate using the full
range of the digital attenuation with just a power amp, preferring
instead to set the gain-staging correctly via analogue attenuators
between dac and amp and using the SB attenuation between 70-100 (and/or
replaygain)


Your situation is different, since you have a fully digital chain into
your amps - so nowhere to insert the analogue attenuation?.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-05 Thread johannes


Hi there,

i have a problem. I crashed my new amp (creek). i just have a sb3
classic with a creek destiny. The destiny crashed after two hours. Then
we tried it again with a diffent device (creek destiny) the new device
crashed also. Now..The advice was to lower the output signal of my SB,
because it seems that the SB analog output signal shoots some ugly
signals out..that may harm the preamp-input of the creek destiny. HEre
are my questions:

1) is this a value concern ?
2) the advice the hifi-shop was to lower the SB-output signal to let
say 60-70%)..does this make sense. 
3) i read carefully many of your statements...so ...does this advice
lower the quality of my singal?...i ususally use FLAC...ripped from
normal Audio-CDs
4) is the usage of a DAC a solution that circumvents the volume control
of the SB...or may circumvent the problem oror ...does it  i am
confused 

please help...or is there a value manual of how the thins working
inside the SB classic ?

cheers 
johannes


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

mswlogo;543050 Wrote:
Correct in that example Volume 20 has has 75.8dB of dynamic range.

They also note that Volume 20 is 50%. I believe translating that,
that would mean 50% of the 0-96dB scale. Or in other words 48dB of
attenuation. 8bits of attenuation.

For the Volume 30 case. They list that as 75%. Which is the closest
value to your example of 80. So you will get close to the performance
of Volume 30. At volume 30 you get approx 88dB dynamic range. 2-bits
lost at 75% volume.

If you want to extrapolate you'd lose something like 1.8bits at 80%.

I think I see where you're coming from.

Why is the initial drop off nowhere near 12.5db decibels?

I would like to see the same test but on a Transporter. This has a SNR
of about 120db. Wouldn't the drop in dynamic range be less than with a
Squeezebox?
Darren

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

johannes;543568 Wrote:
Hi there,

i have a problem. I crashed my new amp (creek). i just have a sb3
classic with a creek destiny. The destiny crashed after two hours. Then
we tried it again with a diffent device (creek destiny) the new device
crashed also. Now..The advice was to lower the output signal of my SB,
because it seems that the SB analog output signal shoots some ugly
signals out..that may harm the preamp-input of the creek destiny. HEre
are my questions:

1) is this a value concern ?
2) the advice the hifi-shop was to lower the SB-output signal to let
say 60-70%)..does this make sense.
3) i read carefully many of your statements...so ...does this advice
lower the quality of my singal?...i ususally use FLAC...ripped from
normal Audio-CDs
4) is the usage of a DAC a solution that circumvents the volume control
of the SB...or may circumvent the problem oror ...does it i am
confused

please help...or is there a value manual of how the thins working
inside the SB classic ?

cheers
johannes
Johannes,
You need to read
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Connect_To_PowerAmp especially
section
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Connect_To_PowerAmp#Finally.2C_the_problem_-_line_level_to_input_sensitivity_mismatch

You need analogue attenuators. I use Rothwells; a lot of people here
recommend Endlers.
Darren

--
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


Phil Leigh;543499 Wrote: 
 I thought we had established that we are not losing detail until
 you've shifted over 4 bits but raising the noise floor  out of the DAC
 (so the quietest sounds get closer to it or even in extreme cases,
 below it - although you can still hear them). Personally I reckon you
 can lose 4 more bits than that before you can detect anything in a DBT
 - we obviously don't agree on this but there have been many tests over
 the years that indicate people have difficulty telling 16-bit from
 16-bit reduced (properly) to 12 or even 10 bits.
 
 Anyway, yes I am using an analogue pre-amp, and I have the Vol on
 100... BUT I use Replaygain (which is the same as using the volume
 control, with one important exception - it can also boost).
 
 
 
 Across my collection the AlbumReplaygain range is -12dB /+5dB average.
 So on the loudest albums (which are all heavily compressed loudness
 wars victims) I'm using 12dB of digital attenuation. On the quietest,
 I'm boosting the level (pre-dac) by 5dB.
 
 I don't believe this has any audible effect other than changing the
 level.
 
 I don't believe that may people on this forum advocate using the full
 range of the digital attenuation with just a power amp, preferring
 instead to set the gain-staging correctly via analogue attenuators
 between dac and amp and using the SB attenuation between 70-100 (and/or
 replaygain)
 
 
 Your situation is different, since you have a fully digital chain into
 your amps - so nowhere to insert the analogue attenuation?.

I never agreed 4 bits were free. In that test Volume 20 is a 4bit
shift. If 4bits didn't lose detail you'd still have 96dB of dynamic
range. But you get 76 dB. They attenuated 4bits and lost 4bits. I must
have said that 6 times now.

Replay Gain is a slightly different deal and I rethinking using it
myself in a unique way. If you have CD's that are way over compressed
they are junk anyway and probably have no low level detail. So you
can't make them much worse. Boosting them is fine in fact is good
because if a CD has too much headroom it's the same argument that it's
better to bring them up to full scale. As long as you don't clip them.
However Replay Gain by default uses RMS Volume to decide not Peak Data.
So you need to be careful it does not cause significant clipping. Minor
occasional clipping is not a big deal.

I assume your premium albums have little on replay gain. So it's up to
you if want to use it. I personally won't ever attenuate with replay
gain. But I might consider boosting with it. But that presents some
other complex problems in Meridian land I'm not going into here. We
have thread on that topic actually on Meridian Forum. Just one quick
comment any time you change volume digitally you need to redither and
I'm curious if that happens and who does it. Plugin or SqueezeBox.

I removed a 6dB digital attenuation from my system and I can hear the
difference. I can't hear Meridian upsampling. I can't hear Merdian
apodizing. I can't hear the difference between m...@320kps and flac. But
I can hear the loss 6dB digitally does.

You can research Meridian spekaers on your own if you want. But
effectively they are DAC, Preamp, and ANALOG amps all in one box. It's
exactly the same as a conventional setup it's just they put in all one
box. They actually have 4 DAC channels and 4 amps in the box. Because
they do crossover in digital domain. This allows amps to run 100%
efficient compared to passive crossovers and avoid phase problems
passive crossovers have.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


darrenyeats;543576 Wrote: 
 I think I see where you're coming from.
 
 If you look at the tests volume 30 is 12.5db of attenuaton but the
 result is only 7.1db reduction in dynamic range from 40 (max). This is
 noticeably different to stepping from volume 30 to volume 20, a further
 12.5db attenuation but which results in a more expected 11.7db reduction
 in dynamic range.
 
 Why is the initial drop off nowhere near 12.5db decibels?
 
 Darren

Correct. At least some folks are reading.

The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not
20bit, it's barely even 16bit.

As you shift down. You're not losing discrete WHOLE bits. You're just
pushing them into a range of the DAC where it performs worse. So it
converts those low bits but not as well as it does in higher positions.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543590 Wrote: 
 Correct. At least some folks are reading.
 
 The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not
 20bit, it's barely even 16bit.
 
 As you shift down. You're not losing discrete WHOLE bits. You're just
 pushing them into a range of the DAC where it performs worse. So it
 converts those low bits but not as well as it does in higher positions.
Yeah. My question was about the test results. They're for a Squeezebox
but I'd like to see them using a much better performing DAC (e.g. TP).
How much would the results change?
Darren


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543590 Wrote: 
 Correct. At least some folks are reading.
 
 The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not
 20bit, it's barely even 16bit.
 
 As you shift down. You're not losing discrete WHOLE bits. You're just
 pushing them into a range of the DAC where it performs worse. So it
 converts those low bits but not as well as it does in higher positions.
Yeah. My question was about the test results. They're for a Squeezebox
but I'd like to see them using a much better performing DAC (e.g. TP).
How much would the results change?
Darren


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543590 Wrote: 
 
 The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not
 20bit, it's barely even 16bit.
 
mswlogo,
In principle, I agree. But it's a question of how good the particular
DAC is whether this effect impinges materially.
Have a look at
http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/207slim/index4.html . These are
measurements on the Transporter. Look at figure 5 which shows that the
Transporter makes a very good fist of outputting a 16 bit signal down
to the finest resolution. You can see each step in output. Impressive
stuff IMO.
Darren


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543590 Wrote: 
 
 The DAC is not an absolute finite device. It's not 24bit, it's not
 20bit, it's barely even 16bit.
 
mswlogo,
In principle, I agree. But it's a question of how good the particular
DAC is whether this effect impinges materially.
Have a look at
http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/207slim/index4.html . These are
measurements on the Transporter. Look at figure 5 which shows that the
Transporter makes a very good fist of outputting a 16 bit signal down
to the finest resolution. You can see each step in output. Impressive
stuff IMO.
Darren


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


darrenyeats;543596 Wrote: 
 mswlogo,
 In principle I agree. But it's a question of how good the particular
 DAC is whether this effect impinges materially.
 Have a look at
 http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/207slim/index4.html . These are
 measurements on the Transporter. Look at figure 5 which shows that the
 Transporter makes a very good fist of outputting a 16 bit signal down
 to the finest resolution. You can see each step in output. Impressive
 stuff IMO.
 Darren

I have a Transporter, great unit. But I don't use it's DACs. I use
Meridian DACs. I can hear loss with 6dB attenuation. And so can 22
other Meridian owners. Use analog volume.

I really need to get some real work done.


-- 
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XP  Cat5  Transporter/DuetController  SPDIF  Meridian G68  DSP6000,
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543600 Wrote: 
 I have a Transporter, great unit. But I don't use it's DACs. I use
 Meridian DACs. I can hear loss with 6dB attenuation. And so can 22
 other Meridian owners. Use analog volume.
 
Perhaps the reason is the following:
mswlogo;543588 Wrote: 
 Because they do crossover in digital domain.
Darren


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-05 Thread mlsstl


johannes;543568 Wrote: 
 Hi there,
 
 i have a problem. I crashed my new amp (creek). i just have a sb3
 classic with a creek destiny. The destiny crashed after two hours. Then
 we tried it again with a diffent device (creek destiny) the new device
 crashed also. Now..The advice was to lower the output signal of my SB,
 because it seems that the SB analog output signal shoots some ugly
 signals out..that may harm the preamp-input of the creek destiny.

What do you mean by crashed your amp? Is it physically burnt out or
non-operational and needs repair?

Or is it just not functioning correctly and needs to be powered down
and restarted (as one might think of a computer crash)? 

Or does it mean something else?

I've had a SB3 for several years and used a variety of amps and never
had a problem. I know of no ugly signals - if the signal is truly
distorted, then reducing volume is not a fix. 

It is possible the SB3 is bad. The solution there would be to try a
different source with the amp (such as a CD player, tuner, etc.) and
see if the issue repeats.

Also, your issue has virtually nothing to do with this thread. I'd
suggest you start a new one that is specific to your issue.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-05 Thread johannes


mlsstl;543615 Wrote: 
 What do you mean by crashed your amp? Is it physically burnt out or
 non-operational and needs repair?
 
 Or is it just not functioning correctly and needs to be powered down
 and restarted (as one might think of a computer crash)? 
 
 Or does it mean something else?
 
 I've had a SB3 for several years and used a variety of amps and never
 had a problem. I know of no ugly signals - if the signal is truly
 distorted, then reducing volume is not a fix. 
 
 It is possible the SB3 is bad. The solution there would be to try a
 different source with the amp (such as a CD player, tuner, etc.) and
 see if the issue repeats.
 
 Also, your issue has virtually nothing to do with this thread. I'd
 suggest you start a new one that is specific to your issue.

hi,
yes i know...but i read about your volume bit discussion and thought
this could have an impact on my solution now...to lower the output
power of my squeezebox may lowers the quality of my output signal...but
i am maybe wrong.. anywhay i change the thread...fanx for your comment

by the way...the amp was dead...- back to the supplier :-(

johannes


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


darrenyeats;543603 Wrote: 
 Perhaps the reason is the following:
 
 Darren

For some reason quote did not work. But you said the reason I hear
differences is due to digital crossovers.

But that is a VERY good point.

It probably does impact it. But I'm sure it does not account for all of
it. 

That test clearly shows significant loss due to digital attenuation.

Sean has said it, that test shows it. It's not free. Period.

How MUCH impact is up to your system and ears. But I bit hear and there
is critical in my opinion on any good recording. It won't matter much on
crap.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


I just realized that it can't be the digital crossovers.

It was a really good thought though.

It's actually really good example where 24bit helps a lot.

The Digital Crossovers will see every pure bit even if it's attenuated.
The DSP processing is done in 48bit. Then back to 24bit. It not until it
reaches the DAC these performance issues really kick in.

They won't be impacted until you attenuate more than 8bits.

Could there be a very slight impact yes. But it would be extremely
small.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543588 Wrote: 
 I never agreed 4 bits were free. In that test Volume 20 is a 4bit shift.
 If 4bits didn't lose detail you'd still have 96dB of dynamic range. But
 you get 76 dB. They attenuated 4bits and lost 4bits. I must have said
 that 6 times now.
 
 Replay Gain is a slightly different deal and I'm rethinking using it
 myself in a unique way. If you have CD's that are way over compressed
 they are junk anyway and probably have no low level detail. So you
 can't make them much worse. Boosting them is fine in fact is good
 because if a CD has too much headroom it's the same argument that it's
 better to bring them up to full scale. As long as you don't clip them
 (significantly). However Replay Gain by default uses RMS Volume to
 decide not Peak Data. So you need to be careful it does not cause
 significant clipping. Minor occasional clipping is not a big deal.
 
 I assume your premium albums have little or no replay gain. So it's up
 to you if want to use it. I personally won't ever attenuate with replay
 gain. But I might consider boosting with it. But that presents some
 other complex problems in Meridian land I'm not going into here. We
 have thread on that topic actually on Meridian Forum. Just one quick
 comment any time you change volume digitally you need to redither and
 I'm curious if that happens and who does it. Plugin or SqueezeBox.
 
 I removed a 6dB digital attenuation from my system and I can hear the
 difference. I can't hear Meridian upsampling. I can't hear Merdian
 apodizing. I can't hear the difference between m...@320kps and flac. But
 I can hear the loss 6dB digitally does.
 
 You can research Meridian spekaers on your own if you want. But
 effectively they are DAC, Preamp, and ANALOG amps all in one box. It's
 exactly the same as a conventional setup it's just they put it all in
 one box. They actually have 4 DAC channels and 4 amps in the box.
 Because they do crossover in digital domain. This allows amps to run
 100% efficient compared to passive crossovers and avoid phase problems
 passive crossovers have.

Replaygain does not clip.


-- 
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You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


Phil Leigh;543639 Wrote: 
 Replaygain does not clip. It assesses the peaks.

Cool. Thanks.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543630 Wrote: 
 For some reason quote did not work. But you said the reason I hear
 differences is due to digital crossovers.
 
 But that is a VERY good point.
 
 It probably does impact it. But I'm sure it does not account for all of
 it. 
 
 That test clearly shows significant loss due to digital attenuation.
 
 Sean has said it, that test shows it. It's not free. Period.
 
 How MUCH impact is up to your system and ears. But I bit hear and there
 is critical in my opinion on any good recording. It won't matter much on
 crap.

What Sean said was very clear... any attenuation increases the noise
floor/decreases the SNR. That's all. Did he say you could ALWAYS hear
it? - NO. He expressed no opinion on that AFAIK.

You keep talking about loss - loss of what?
Mathematically until you shift past the 16th bit in the 20-bit
effective window you haven't lost anything except SNR.

If you can really hear an increase of 6dB in the noise floor from -96dB
to -90db then you have exceptional hearing.
I can't... and I'm very glad I can't. I don't know anyone who can.

Most people on the planet thing that a 75dB SNR is astonishingly good.
Until 16-bit digital PCM recording, it was the state of the art. In
fact, at best it defines the noise floor of most of your classical
recordings (pre 1980's anyway).

By the way, I have a fully-active tri-amped system - and STAX SR
4070/SRM727's that are more revealing than both your system or mine.
Guess my ears must be shot... or maybe it's the crap I've been
listening to?

I give up...
Off to listen to some music (with or without a bit of extra noise in
it).


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543633 Wrote: 
 I just realized that it can't be the digital crossovers.
 
 It was a really good thought though.
 
 It's actually a really good example where 24bit helps a lot.
 
 The Digital Crossovers will see every pure bit even if it's attenuated.
 The DSP processing is done in 48bit. Then back to 24bit. It's not until
 it reaches the DAC these performance issues really kick in.
 
 They won't be impacted until you attenuate more than 8bits.
 
I can understand how 48 bits helps the DSP to be more transparent (less
rounding errors).

Once the resulting signal is converted to 24 bits and passed to a DAC,
won't it be still subject to the 20 bits of dynamic range problem? Do
you see why I ask? Or perhaps you could send a link that explains more
about the Meridian set up.
Darren


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


darrenyeats;543653 Wrote: 
 I can understand how 48 bits helps the DSP to be more transparent (less
 rounding errors).
 
 Once the resulting signal is converted to 24 bits and passed to a DAC,
 won't it be still subject to the 20 bits of dynamic range problem? Do
 you see why I ask? Or perhaps you could send a link that explains more
 about the Meridian set up.
 Darren

Correct, 48 bit just avoids rounding errors.

Yes the DSP speaker is still subject to the problems discussed here.

You can read about Meridian speakers here
http://media.meridian-audio.com/datasheets/papers/DSP-speakers-paper-v2.pdf

You will not find a all the details of there though, but some. The rest
is spread over different bits of information that some folks have
aquired over the years from Meridian. Some of what they do in their
processors is the same as what's done in speakers too. And generations
have changed. Their newest ones have apodizing filters in their
upsampler. But for the life of me I can't hear the difference apodizing
adds. Too old I guess.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


Phil Leigh;543646 Wrote: 
 What Sean said was very clear... any attenuation increases the noise
 floor/decreases the SNR. That's all. Did he say you could ALWAYS hear
 it? - NO. He expressed no opinion on that AFAIK.
 
 You keep talking about loss - loss of what?
 Mathematically until you shift past the 16th bit in the 20-bit
 effective window you haven't lost anything except SNR.
 
 

As soon as you shift down (filling the top end with zeros) you are
basically throwing away dynamic range. I call it lost (or under
utilized dynamic range that you have available). Call it what ever you
like.

Correct, Sean does not say how much difference you would actually hear.
Just that those 8 bits attenution is not free.

There is good reason CD's are 16bit. And why people (even on this
forum) think more than 16bits (up to 20) sounds even better. But
according to you it's impossible to hear even 16bits. Why bother having
DACs that can even do 20bits. Just so you can turn down the freaken
volume in digital. I don't think so !!! According to you 12bits is
plenty.

6dB is 1 bit. That's a lot out of 16bits.

Now if we were talking 20 vs 21 bits it would be different.

But 15 vs 16bits. I'll take my 16bits thank you very much.

A lot of CD's are not full scale either. There is another bit or so
gone.

So now on some CD's it's 14 vs 15 bits I'm hearing a difference in.

Unless I use something like Replay Gain to bring back up ut back up to
full scale. Which I'm think of using. But there are some complications
with that in Meridian world (other benefits I don't wish to lose).

I could share how to actually compare things but you'll just fight that
tooth and nail on that too. So I won't bother. It would be too much of
shock for this croud.

Enjoy the tunes.


-- 
mswlogo

XP  Cat5  Transporter/DuetController  SPDIF  Meridian G68  DSP6000,
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;543684 Wrote: 
 As soon as you shift down (filling the top end with zeros) you are
 basically throwing away dynamic range. I call it lost (or under
 utilized dynamic range that you have available). Call it what ever you
 like.
 
 Correct, Sean does not say how much difference you would actually hear.
 Just that those 8 bits attenution is not free.
 
 There is good reason CD's are 16bit. And why people (even on this
 forum) think more than 16bits (up to 20) sounds even better. But
 according to you it's impossible to hear even 16bits. Why bother having
 DACs that can even do 20bits. Just so you can turn down the freaken
 volume in digital. I don't think so !!! According to you 12bits is
 plenty.
 
 6dB is 1 bit. That's a lot out of 16bits.
 
 Now if we were talking 20 vs 21 bits it would be different.
 
 But 15 vs 16bits. I'll take my 16bits thank you very much.
 
 A lot of CD's are not full scale either. There is another bit or so
 gone.
 
 So now on some CD's it's 14 vs 15 bits (6dB) I'm hearing a difference
 in.
 
 Unless I use something like Replay Gain to bring it back up to full
 scale. Which I'm think of using. But there are some complications with
 that in Meridian world (other benefits I don't wish to lose).
 
 I could share how to actually compare things but you'll just fight that
 tooth and nail on that too. So I won't bother. It would be too much of
 shock for this croud.
 
 Enjoy the tunes.

The reason CD's are 16-bit is that 96dB of SNR looks so much better on
paper than 84 (which is what CD was originally going to be... still
better than the 75dB state of the art analogue at the time!)

There is nothing in Shannon/Nyquist that talks to the number of bits
required to accurately represent anything. What's a bit of noise
between friends?

This discussion has been about the impact of digital attenuation on
16-bit sources. By definition, 16-bit sources cannot exploit a 20-bit
DAC. DVD-A can and it sounds better. I never said otherwise.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

mswlogo;543674 Wrote:
Correct, 48 bit just avoids rounding errors.

Yes the DSP speaker is still subject to the problems discussed here.

Once the DSP is done it's still attenuated digitally by the same amount
before it goes into the DAC.

You can read about Meridian speakers here
http://media.meridian-audio.com/datasheets/papers/DSP-speakers-paper-v2.pdf

You will not find a all the details of there though, but some. The rest
is spread over different bits of information that some folks have
aquired over the years from Meridian. Some of what they do in their
processors is the same as what's done in speakers too. And generations
have changed. Their newest ones have apodizing filters in their
upsampler. But for the life of me I can't hear the difference apodizing
adds. Too old I guess.
Cheers, I've now read that pdf. I don't understand this fully yet.

mswlogo;543633 Wrote:
I just realized that it can't be the digital crossovers.
I was looking for something in the pdf which might explain your
statement above in particular but I couldn't find anything. Why can't
it be the digital crossovers?
Darren

--
darrenyeats

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-05 Thread Pat Farrell

darrenyeats wrote:
 mswlogo;543633 Wrote: 
 The DSP processing is done in 48bit. 
 I can understand how 48 bits helps the DSP to be more transparent (less
 rounding errors).

Its not just rounding errors. Nearly all DSP is done by converting the
time-doman signal to the frequency domain using a FFT. DSP chips are
notable because they do a combined multiply-and-add function quickly,
usually massively parallel processing. Nearly all of the time, they are
actually working on floating point numbers, not the 16 or 24 bit
integers that most audiophiles are used to talking about.

When you do as many multiply and add functions as a typical DSP does,
and we are talking about tens of thousands, you need to be very careful
with the numerical analysis. Its much more complicated than simple
rounding of a few bits. This whole thread has been off in the weeds for
weeks. A digital volume control is talking about a nearly trivial
single multiply or shift function.

DSP is more like dealing with quantum physics rather than Newtonian physics.


-- 
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-05 Thread cliveb


pfarrell;543694 Wrote: 
 DSP is more like dealing with quantum physics rather than Newtonian
 physics.
You mentioned the Q-word, so the audiophile-specific version of
Godwin's Law applies, and I declare this thread closed. Thank God :-)


-- 
cliveb

Transporter - ATC SCM100A

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


pfarrell;543694 Wrote: 
 darrenyeats wrote:
  mswlogo;543633 Wrote: 
  The DSP processing is done in 48bit. 
  I can understand how 48 bits helps the DSP to be more transparent
 (less
  rounding errors).
 
 Its not just rounding errors. Nearly all DSP is done by converting the
 time-doman signal to the frequency domain using a FFT. DSP chips are
 notable because they do a combined multiply-and-add function quickly,
 usually massively parallel processing. Nearly all of the time, they
 are
 actually working on floating point numbers, not the 16 or 24 bit
 integers that most audiophiles are used to talking about.
 
 When you do as many multiply and add functions as a typical DSP does,
 and we are talking about tens of thousands, you need to be very
 careful
 with the numerical analysis. Its much more complicated than simple
 rounding of a few bits. This whole thread has been off in the weeds
 for
 weeks. A digital volume control is talking about a nearly trivial
 single multiply or shift function.
 
 DSP is more like dealing with quantum physics rather than Newtonian
 physics.
 
 
 -- 
 Pat Farrell
 http://www.pfarrell.com/

Correct a lot of DSP is done in floating point. I'm told by some that
know the internals of Meridian stuff better than I do (it's burried in
some papers to). That they use 48 bit integer math in the speakers. We
are not talking about DSP used for volume but DSP used for Crossovers.
And how much that would care if the data was shift down. I'm saying
they generally would not care. Whether that math is done in 48bit
integer, 72bit integer (which Meridian also uses) or 64bit float. It's
the same if you know what your doine. The point is you have all the
data and you don't do the crossovers in 24bit integer math.


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


darrenyeats;543693 Wrote: 
 Cheers, I've now read that pdf. I don't understand this fully yet.
 
 
 I was looking for something in the pdf which might explain your
 statement above in particular but I couldn't find anything. Why can't
 it be the digital crossovers?
 Darren

Sorry I'm not going to get into computer math and precision. Basically
we are still in the digital domain. One signal in attenuated by 6dB.
Two signals out split by frequency both attenuated by 6dB.

Just like if I turned the volume down digitally 6dB and then back up
6dB digitally on 16bit data in a 24bit word. There would be 0 harm.

The digital crossovers have a finite precision. That won't change
regardless of what's sent in. It may effect the LSB or two of the full
24bit word. But we are no where near there. It may effect crossovers
when you start to attenuate say more than 6bits.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-04 Thread Phil Leigh


Just to clarify a couple of things:
1) on the old 0-40 scale, each step was 1.25dB
2) on the current 0-100 scale, each step is 0.5dB
3) on the 0-100 scale no bits are irretrievably lost from the 16
originals until the 16th (LSB) bit is shifted below the 24th (LSB) of
the bit of the volume control (ignoring the DAC for a moment). 
4) each complete bit-shift costs 6dB of SNR (or dynamic range if you
insist)
5) With real 24-bit DAC's you can forget about the bottom 4 bits (of
the 24) because the DAC's aren't perfect, for both 16 and 24-bit
sources they will just carry noise which you can't hear anyway, even at
greatly boosted listening volumes. So you are left with a 20-bit DAC and
4-bits of available shift before the DAC loses the ability to recover
the full 16-bit information. Even for those 4 bits there is a cost of
increased SNR (6dB per bit) but you won't hear this SNR impact unless
the original signal is very low indeed, because making something that
is very very quiet (the self-noise of the DAC) 16 times louder still
means it is very quiet...


http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=164814postcount=12


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-04 Thread mswlogo


Phil Leigh;543167 Wrote: 
 Just to clarify a couple of things:
 1) on the old 0-40 scale, each step was 1.25dB
 2) on the current 0-100 scale, each step is 0.5dB
 3) on the 0-100 scale no bits are irretrievably lost from the 16
 originals until the 16th (LSB) bit is shifted below the 24th (LSB) bit
 of the volume control (ignoring the DAC for a moment). 
 4) each complete bit-shift costs 6dB of SNR (or dynamic range if you
 insist)
 5) With real 24-bit DAC's you can forget about the bottom 4 bits (of
 the 24) because the DAC's aren't perfect, for both 16 and 24-bit
 sources they will just carry noise which you can't hear anyway, even at
 greatly boosted listening volumes. So you are left with a 20-bit DAC and
 4-bits of available shift before the DAC loses the ability to recover
 the full 16-bit information - and this is academic. Even for those 4
 bits there is a cost of increased SNR (6dB per bit) but you won't hear
 this SNR impact unless the original signal is very low indeed, because
 making something that is very very quiet (the self-noise of the DAC) 16
 times louder still means it is very quiet...
 
 
 http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=164814postcount=12

If you are correct on that 0 - 40 scale being 1.25db then that test
shows it's way worse than I ever anticipated.

Volume 30 would be - 12.5dB attenuation. (2-Bits). And you're down to
88dB dynamic range on the table in that test. You lose 1.5bits of
dynamic range.

Volume 20 would be - 25.0dB attenuation. (4-Bits).  And you're down to
75dB dynamic range on the table in that test. You lose almost 4bits of
dynamic range.

Attenuate a bit lose a bit. Nice.

The bottom 8bits of that 24bit DAC are practically non existent. 

Thanks for the claification.


-- 
mswlogo

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-04 Thread Phil Leigh


mswlogo;543211 Wrote: 
 If you are correct on that 0 - 40 scale being 1.25db then that test
 shows it's way worse than I ever anticipated.
 
 Volume 30 would be - 12.5dB attenuation. (2-Bits). And you're down to
 88dB dynamic range on the table in that test. You lose 1.25bits of
 dynamic range.
 
 Volume 20 would be - 25.0dB attenuation. (4-Bits).  And you're down to
 75dB dynamic range on the table in that test. You lose almost 4bits of
 dynamic range.
 
 Attenuate a bit lose a bit. Nice.
 
 The bottom 8bits of that 24bit DAC are practically non existent.
 
 The link you refer to from sean is 100% correct. 8 bits are not free.
 
 Neither is 1 bit free, or 2 bits free, or any bits free. 
 
 Thanks for the claification.

The point is that (using 0-100 scale) volume 70 = 15dB of attenuation =

SNR decreased by 15dB from 96dB to 81dB.

You need to put that 81dB SNR into perspective:
1) you won't hear the extra noise at normal volumes at normal listening
position - even playing digital silence
2) if there is ANY music playing you definitely won't hear it!
3) The SNR of the best vinyl replay is 60dB, the best cassette decks
managed 65dB (just), the best Pro RTR tape decks (properly aligned,
with new tape!) could do 75dB... so 81dB is well higher than any of
those. This is why you won't hear it.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-04 Thread mswlogo


Phil Leigh;543289 Wrote: 
 The point is that (using 0-100 scale) volume 70 = 15dB of attenuation =
 
 SNR decreased by 15dB from 96dB to 81dB.
 
 You need to put that 81dB SNR into perspective:
 1) you won't hear the extra noise at normal volumes at normal listening
 position - even playing digital silence
 2) if there is ANY music playing you definitely won't hear it!
 3) The SNR of the best vinyl replay is 60dB, the best cassette decks
 managed 65dB (just), the best Pro RTR tape decks (properly aligned,
 with new tape!) could do 75dB... so 81dB is well higher than any of
 those. This is why you won't hear it.

Exactly.

At 80 (on the new Transporter scale) you are not attenuating a normal
range for volume control.

On my system (where volume is in dB) my lstening range is about 24dB
(60 to 85dB).

On the transporter scale that would be about 100 down to 50 for that
same delta range.

Dropping down to 80 is not really a legit range to test if you use that
as your primary volume control.

You attenuated only by 10dB (1.6bits). And with that test you probably
only lose a little over .5 bits. .5 bits loss is hard to hear. You can
hear it but it's hard.

But if you swing your delta volume in digital over a normal range in
dB (e.g. +/- 12dB). You will have severe dynamic range loss.

I was not aware the Transporter has such a small step, because I
learned long ago even on squeezebox to ALWAYS disable it.

I was thinking you dropped 20dB not 10dB and didn't hear it.

If you only drop 10dB it would be difficult to hear on a good DAC.

You want enough range for playing the softess CD at the highest level
to the loudest CD the lowest. For me that takes 24dB of range. (That's
50 steps on Transporter).

80 to 100 (that only +/- 5dB) is way too narrow range as a Volume
control.

It sound like you do use and anlog preamp and are experimenting. You
need to simulate what a realistic range that would be needed over a
wide range of needs over a wide range of music. Some folks will want
more range some will get by with less.

I actually use more range than 24dB but I limited it to a range where I
would care and expect to still hear good detail.

If I were to repeat your test and switch to digital Volume on
transporter. I'd set my Analog Gain around 90 (to simulate no Preamp).
And I would probably need to use 50 - 100 on Transporter (to get 24dB)
of volume range.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-04 Thread mswlogo


Great example of why you want ALL your dynamic range.

This IS Marching bands and Brahms lullaby in the same tune, BUT NOT AT
THE SAME TIME !!

http://softronix.com/pictures/levelperfect/poco%20allegro.jpg


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-03 Thread mswlogo


audiomuze;542825 Wrote: 
 Please could you share the titles so that I can avoid inadvertently
 acquiring them in my travels?  I don't have access to my library at
 present, but I seem to recall the DVD-Audio of Eagles - Hotel
 California is one of them.

You will never learn to truly enjoy music thinking that way. I was
gonna say this is too funny. But serioulsy it's sad that you're
misunderstanding the insignificance of this level of clipping. Hotel
California DVDA is a really great disc.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


audiomuze;542825 Wrote: 
 Please could you share the titles so that I can avoid inadvertently
 acquiring them in my travels?  I don't have access to my library at
 present, but I seem to recall the DVD-Audio of Eagles - Hotel
 California is one of them.

Yes - Fragile is the only one that I have that is really badly
mastered...


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


I thought I would just follow this thread rather than continue to
contribute, but I'm having trouble understanding the various viewpoints
now... and we seem to have moved on to a discussion of clipping which
different people seem to define in different ways?.

My view is:
1) getting tracks that peak at 0dB is good - but what really matters is
the desired relative energy (perceived loudness) of the track as whole
- peaks need to be studied to understand their nature - what causes them
and what treatment if any do they require
2) getting tracks that clip (ie want to carry a sample value greater
than 0dB but obviously can't) is bad
3) there are several ways to avoid clipping
4) It is often the case that in a track at mixdown you can end up with
a handful of samples that would exceed 0dB if you didn't do
something. If you force THOSE samples below 0dB (limit or compress
them, manually or via software/hardware) the average energy of the
track can be preserved, which is important as this track needs to be
(relatively) level balanced against the other tracks and you don't want
to restrict the dynamic range on the whole album just because of one
track...
5)You probably won't see many tracks with the characteristics of 4
above in the wild because they will have been dealt with in
mastering...
6)using digital clipping to achieve 4 is the worst/laziest way of doing
it
7)It IS true that you won't hear digital clipping if it only affects a
handful of sporadic samples across a track
8)The progressive limiting on the Hurt track is an artistic choice - it
enables the song to build to a more intense climax before the
resolution. This is NOT poor production!
9) Hotel California is a great-sounding DVD-A. The title track contains
a magic moment at 3:28 where the whole track is subject to a hard -40dB
fade-to-black giving the effect of silence - at this point the LSB's
are ruthlessly exposed! Given that the snare drums are peaking at 0dB,
this means that  - taken as a whole - this is one of the few tracks
that actually exploits nearly the full available dynamic range
(actually SNR)...
On a casual listen it sounds like they muted the main bus @ 3:28 - but
examine that region carefully and you'll see that isn't what they did!


10) as a final experiment, I set up my two (unused) SB3's synced with
their s/pdifs into 2 s/pdif inputs on my 5103. One was set too max vol,
the other to vol=80. The amp inputs were then calibrated to compensate
(the 5103 lets you programme gain in 1dB steps). I downsampled the
Hotel California track to 24/48 with SOX.


Switching between the inputs reveals no audible difference to me.
Recording the output from the 5103 (via its DAC and tape out) and
diffing them reveals an expected increase in noise floor but otherwise
no difference. Even at 3:28 you can't hear the noise floor increase...

So to conclude, I have no idea what you guys that insist on vol=max are
hearing (or not hearing?) but I can't recreate it here.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-03 Thread audiomuze


mswlogo;542833 Wrote: 
 Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. On the contrary I find it to be 
 pretty loud and lacking subtlety and
inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at
you.  I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant
listening experience.


-- 
audiomuze

'Cable break-in is real, and occurs between the ears of the listener -
nowhere else (most certainly not in the cable).'
(http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm)

'*last.fm*' (http://www.last.fm/user/audiomuze)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-03 Thread Robin Bowes

On 03/05/10 09:41, audiomuze wrote:
 
 mswlogo;542833 Wrote: 
 Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. O
 On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and
 inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at
 you.  I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant
 listening experience.

I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed
sound while others prefer a more natural sound.

This is personal preference.

I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former.

R.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-03 Thread mswlogo


audiomuze;542857 Wrote: 
 On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and
 inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at
 you.  I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant
 listening experience.

Then I would have a closer look at your system than the disks. I am
never tempted to turn it down. I have 18 amps, 18 DACs, one for every
frequency/single driver. It sounds like heaven.

I have about 20 DVDAs but I don't own Fragile.

Stay away from blue-man group.


-- 
mswlogo

XP  Cat5  Transporter/DuetController  SPDIF  Meridian G68  DSP6000,
DSP5500HC, DSP5000
XP  Cat5  SB3  SPDIF  Meridian DSP5000
XP  Cat5  DuetReceiver  SPDIF  Meridian G91  DSP5000

'My Transporter Setup'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45)
'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


Robin Bowes;542877 Wrote: 
 On 03/05/10 09:41, audiomuze wrote:
  
  mswlogo;542833 Wrote: 
  Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. O
  On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and
  inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at
  you.  I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant
  listening experience.
 
 I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed
 sound while others prefer a more natural sound.
 
 This is personal preference.
 
 I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former.
 
 R.

Now we are discussing personal taste! - I find the Mo-Fi boring by
comparison - each to their own.
I doubt any of us would mix/master any given album identically...


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-03 Thread mswlogo


Phil Leigh;542853 Wrote: 
 I thought I would just follow this thread rather than continue to
 contribute, but I'm having trouble understanding the various viewpoints
 now... and we seem to have moved on to a discussion of clipping which
 different people seem to define in different ways?.
 
 My view is:
 7)It IS true that you won't hear digital clipping if it only affects a
 handful of sporadic samples across a track.

I agree with most of your points. Your point here is all I was saying
when folks jumped all over it because they ran out of ideas in
explaining why ditgital attenution doesn't cost anything.

Your right it may be one track in an album. Or few. It's worth losing
skeep over. If I see a whole album with say 3dB or more headroom. I
concider that being lazy. Than clipping few audible peaks because they
don't it that close by accident.

Re: Topic of attenuation. if your happy with 14bits at 80 volume. All
the power to ya. That test that was posted says it all. Some
ears/systems may not notice it but others will.


-- 
mswlogo

XP  Cat5  Transporter/DuetController  SPDIF  Meridian G68  DSP6000,
DSP5500HC, DSP5000
XP  Cat5  SB3  SPDIF  Meridian DSP5000
XP  Cat5  DuetReceiver  SPDIF  Meridian G91  DSP5000

'My Transporter Setup'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=350741postcount=45)
'Hitch Hikers Guide to Meridian' (http://www.meridianunplugged.com)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


Robin Bowes;542877 Wrote: 
 On 03/05/10 09:41, audiomuze wrote:
  
  mswlogo;542833 Wrote: 
  Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. O
  On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and
  inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at
  you.  I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant
  listening experience.
 
 I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed
 sound while others prefer a more natural sound.
 
 This is personal preference.
 
 I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former.
 
 R.

To be really picky, unless you are talking about a crossed-pair 2-track
recording (or a soundfield job) in a real ambience with no EQ, reverb
etc there is no natural... there is just engineered... :-)


Most people wouldn't like the natural (untreated) sound of a pop/rock
band without EQ and (especially) compression!

And before anyone says What about the Beatles? - their  early
recordings have all manner of EQ, compression etc on them - much of it
enforced by the microphones, mixing consoles, guitars, amplifiers and
tape decks of the day - you couldn't get a neutral sound to build
from so you had to work round that. The reason they sound good? - a lot
of care was taken in the performance, recording, mixing and mastering.
This was a long time before the fix it in the mix mentality became
popular...


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


Robin Bowes;542877 Wrote: 
 On 03/05/10 09:41, audiomuze wrote:
  
  mswlogo;542833 Wrote: 
  Hotel California DVDA is a really great disc. O
  On the contrary I find it to be pretty loud and lacking subtlety and
  inevitably turn it down when it starts because it jumps right out at
  you.  I much prefer the MoFi CD which I find a far more pleasant
  listening experience.
 
 I think what this demonstrates is that some folk prefer a compressed
 sound while others prefer a more natural sound.
 
 This is personal preference.
 
 I prefer the latter; mswlogo seems to prefer the former.
 
 R.

To be really picky, unless you are talking about a crossed-pair 2-track
recording (or a soundfield job) in a real ambience with no EQ, reverb
etc there is no natural... there is just engineered... :-)


Most people wouldn't like the natural (untreated) sound of a pop/rock
band without EQ and (especially) compression!

And before anyone says What about the Beatles? - their  early
recordings have all manner of EQ, compression etc on them - much of it
enforced by the microphones, mixing consoles, guitars, amplifiers and
tape decks of the day - you couldn't get a neutral sound to build
from so you had to work round that. The reason they sound good? - a lot
of care was taken in the performance, recording, mixing and mastering.
This was a long time before the fix it in the mix mentality became
popular...


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control


mswlogo;542880 Wrote: 
 I agree with most of your points. Your point here is all I was saying
 when folks jumped all over it because they ran out of ideas in
 explaining why ditgital attenution doesn't cost anything.
 
 Your right it may be one track in an album. Or a  few. It's not worth
 losing skeep over. If I see a whole album with say 3dB or more
 headroom. I consider that being lazy. Than clipping a few inaudible
 peaks because they didn't cut it that close by accident.
 
 Re: Topic of attenuation. if you're happy with 14bits at 80 volume. All
 the power to ya. That test that was posted says it all. Some
 ears/systems may not notice it but others will.

I think we are close (ish) to agreeing. (24-bit) Digital Attenuation
costs SNR (nothing else). Can you hear 10-20dB of it? Depends on
several things but predominantly it depends on the average energy level
of the track - if it is a very quiet track you MIGHT hear the increased
noise floor relative to the track content. On a track with 0dB peaks
and an average level  
-40dB... I can't. Fortunately that's 99.9% of my collection - I'm still
looking for ones that might meet these criteria.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-03 Thread Robin Bowes

On 03/05/10 12:16, Phil Leigh wrote:
 To be really picky, unless you are talking about a crossed-pair 2-track
 recording (or a soundfield job) in a real ambience with no EQ, reverb
 etc there is no natural... there is just engineered... :-)

Yes, that's true, but some recordings can sound more natural than others.

 Most people wouldn't like the natural (untreated) sound of a pop/rock
 band without EQ and (especially) compression!

Also true, and I'm not suggesting that I don't like pop/rock bands that
use compression - far from it! I don't, for example, expect a natural
sound from AC/DC or Jimi Hendrix :)

 And before anyone says What about the Beatles? - their  early
 recordings have all manner of EQ, compression etc on them - much of it
 enforced by the microphones, mixing consoles, guitars, amplifiers and
 tape decks of the day - you couldn't get a neutral sound to build
 from so you had to work round that. The reason they sound good? - a lot
 of care was taken in the performance, recording, mixing and mastering.
 This was a long time before the fix it in the mix mentality became
 popular...

The reason they sound good? Because they were damned good songs,
perfectly arranged. I have some Beatles multitracks, ie. copies of the
4-track used before mixdown and it's plain to hear that not a lot is
done in the mix - all the good stuff is on the tape.

Funnily enough, on Friday night I popped in to a local pub who had a
Beatles/60s tribute band playing. They were basically just 4 blokes in
their 50s, average musicians - 4-piece, drums, bass, 2 x guitar, three
vox singing the harmonies. The Beatles songs sounded simply superb.

R.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control

2010-05-03 Thread darrenyeats

mswlogo;542777 Wrote:

Because if it was 50% of the log scale that would be 48dB and I assure
you the SqueezeBox DAC would not output the low 16bits of the DAC that
well. Totally misleading.
No, it is 0.5db reduction per step downwards from 100 (0db) to 1
(-49.5db) then at 0 silence.
mswlogo;542880 Wrote:
I agree with most of your points. Your point here is all I was saying
when folks jumped all over it because they ran out of ideas in
explaining why ditgital attenution doesn't cost anything.

Your right it may be one track in an album. Or a few. It's not worth
losing skeep over. If I see a whole album with say 3dB or more
headroom. I consider that being lazy. Than clipping a few inaudible
peaks because they didn't cut it that close by accident.

Re: Topic of attenuation. if you're happy with 14bits at 80 volume. All
the power to ya. That test that was posted says it all. Some
ears/systems may not notice it but others will.
Your calculations are wrong. 50 volume is -25db (not -48db). Do your
calculations all over again and (not that I have to tell you this) get
back to us. Let's see once you re-do your calculations whether your
opinion is just the same. I know what I'm betting.
Darren

--
darrenyeats

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3H57URKQB8AQO/ref=cm_pdp_content_listmania/203-7606506-5721503.

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(caps bass EQ'd) Desktop - Genius Slab SW-flat2.1 700
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] DAC Resolution Test and Don't EVER use Digital Volume Control