Re Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! HowdoIsetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
"Stephen F. Bosch" wrote: How do I filter out Mallard's hot wind using qmail? Go to your options menu and set it to move messages with "Mallard" in them to another mail directory. That should do it. If everyone ignores the GEEKYNESS of Linux, maybe LINUX WILL GO AWAY!
Re: Re Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL!HowdoIsetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
Mallard wrote: "Stephen F. Bosch" wrote: How do I filter out Mallard's hot wind using qmail? Go to your options menu and set it to move messages with "Mallard" in them to another mail directory. That should do it. yup - under netscape edit-message filters-new- ... you get the idea. If everyone ignores the GEEKYNESS of Linux, maybe LINUX WILL GO AWAY! not bloody likely. -- === "... all thoughts of selfish desire, ill-will, hatred and violence are the result of a lack of wisdom ... " - Buddha For an awsome fantasy role playing game checkout: http://members.xoom.com/Lycadican ===
Re: Re Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! HowdoIsetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
Man, Mallard! Why do you even stop by? --Greg "Stephen F. Bosch" wrote: How do I filter out Mallard's hot wind using qmail? Go to your options menu and set it to move messages with "Mallard" in them to another mail directory. That should do it. If everyone ignores the GEEKYNESS of Linux, maybe LINUX WILL GO AWAY! __ message envoye depuis http://www.ifrance.com emails (pop)-sites persos (espace illimite)-agenda-favoris (bookmarks)-forums Ecoutez ce message par tel ! : 08 92 68 92 15 (france uniquement)
Re: Re Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! HowdoIsetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
I will be out of the office from August 22 through August. 27. I will have limited opportunity to respond to email until then. Thank you.
Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do Isetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
Pj wrote: About 4 years ago I was contemplating a MAC. I was at the local sales/repair shop and asked to see it's DOS. All I saw was icons! "How do I get into it?" "You don't", was the reply. "But how do I write script or change stacks?" "You don't. That's what we're here for." Neither the machine, the limited software, or their hourly rate was cheap! And you always believe the used car sales guy (he used to be one) at the counter? You need to READ SOME MANUALS to be able to program a Mac. You may have to LEARN SOMETHING, and would probably have to spend as many hours as it takes to learn "vi". One thing is for sure, if you did write a program, it couldn't require all sorts of cool "switches" and some geeky define like program [erftgtgds] [file:tpty] [orthis-geekything] [gre/ggdd/d/df//d.f/d/f/] \ gjgj d\diirrpv If a Mac user has to read a manual, the program sucks! GREAT! forces the geeks to not be geeks! Damn they hate that. DOS? Like I said before, it's not 1983 ANY MORE! this command line crap is for the birds. You should be using some sort of GUI minimum to access remote machines (like servers). Talk about a waste of time. I think its all a way for geeks to keep their day jobs. make the exec's think you are worth something because you know some cryptic commands you can type in. The more crap you remember, the more you move up the geek ladder. Why do people hang on to VT100 80 X 24 1983 technology like its some sort of wonderful thing? Get a life! Yes, I used to save my programs on paper tape, but if I did it now at a Linux meeting, I would be god like!
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do Isetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
Maybe this list should be moderated. I signed on to pick up some tips and contribute when I could. I get about 80% troll/trash and about 20% useful interaction. For an "expert" list, this is pretty sad. Time to tune up my procmail filter. Stew Benedict
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do Isetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
GREAT! forces the geeks to not be geeks! Damn they hate that. DOS? Like I said before, it's not 1983 ANY MORE! this command line crap is for the birds. You should be using some sort of GUI minimum to access remote machines (like servers). This actually is not as much a matter of what "we" should be using (I would suppose most people here know what they're using and why) but about what _you_ should be using, since you're obviously less than happy with GNU/Linux. You seem to like the intellectual corsets in which Windows and MacOS put you, so go ahead and be merry, for Emacs' sake.
[OT] Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How doIsetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
Mallard wrote: You need to READ SOME MANUALS to be able to program a Mac. You may have to LEARN SOMETHING, and would probably have to spend as many hours as it takes to learn "vi". I'm always somewhat amused by Neal Stephenson's "In the Beginning was the Command Line", when he writes of the Macintosh Programmers Workshop (basically a development environment); "The first thing that Apple's hackers had done when they'd gotten the MacOS up and running - probably even before they'd gotten it up and running - was to recreate the Unix interface, so that they would be able to get some useful work done ... the Mac's vaunted graphical user interface was an impediment, something to be circumvented". So you've got the developers of the Mac unable to do any useful developing using the WIMP interface they designed (does nobody else think that the term WIMP was invented by hackers who thought that by using this interface users were wimping out of actually getting to know their machines?) They needed a CLI to actually program the thing. But then, I still sometimes wish the Mac had never been invented, and that Apple had developed the II line - the IIGS was really quite an incredible machine. Hell, it got sued by the *Beatles* (sort of) for the Ensoniq synth chip - and AFAIK this is the only Apple computer (including Macs) to ever ship with real hardware synth. *And* you can run Unix on an Apple IIGS using GN/OME (not the X-windows thing, this was developed far earlier). One thing is for sure, if you did write a program, it couldn't require all sorts of cool "switches" and some geeky define like program [erftgtgds] [file:tpty] [orthis-geekything] [gre/ggdd/d/df//d.f/d/f/] \ gjgj d\diirrpv True, the Mac has a very user friendly interface. But when you click, your pretty much setting the sort of switches you're complaining about. The Mac is not a hackers machine - ie you can't easily get down into the basis of the system and see what's happening, play with it - you can't see exactly what switches are being set. And I recommend Macs for anybody who doesn't want to do this - if you want a computer to actually do work with and nothing else, I don't think you can do better than a Mac. Check back with Linux in a year or so. If a Mac user has to read a manual, the program sucks! True - but only so far as you're talking about a Mac *user* - not a developer. GREAT! forces the geeks to not be geeks! Damn they hate that. IMHO you can't use a Mac and be a geek/nerd/hacker etc. This is because the Mac will not let you get inside it easily, and I think that anybody who really want's to know how computers work will want to get into every little thing that's going on. NB this is not saying the Mac is a bad thing - just that it's better suited for people who don't want to play with system internals. DOS? Like I said before, it's not 1983 ANY MORE! this command line crap is for the birds. Don't you want to fly like a bird, rather than a flying toaster? You should be using some sort of GUI minimum to access remote machines (like servers). Talk about a waste of time. I think it's all what you're used to. If you know the CLI then it certainly isn't a waste of time - it will run faster than a GUI simply because the machine doesn't need to use as much memory/processing power to draw pictures for you. I think its all a way for geeks to keep their day jobs. make the exec's think you are worth something because you know some cryptic commands you can type in. The more crap you remember, the more you move up the geek ladder. Why do people hang on to VT100 80 X 24 1983 technology like its some sort of wonderful thing? Because VTxxx *is* a wonderful thing in a lot of ways. Read up on it before you say it's out of date. Can be very useful for hooking up old machines that can't handle a GUI, but can still be useful. Get a life! A nerd with a life? Surely that's an oxymoron. :-) Yes, I used to save my programs on paper tape, but if I did it now at a Linux meeting, I would be god like! Damn straight! Just as cool as running Doom on a camera, for all you Slashdot readers. :-) Tom
Re: [OT] Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How doIsetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
Tom Massey wrote: Mallard wrote: snip I think its all a way for geeks to keep their day jobs. make the exec's think you are worth something because you know some cryptic commands you can type in. The more crap you remember, the more you move up the geek ladder. Why do people hang on to VT100 80 X 24 1983 technology like its some sort of wonderful thing? Because VTxxx *is* a wonderful thing in a lot of ways. Read up on it before you say it's out of date. Can be very useful for hooking up old machines that can't handle a GUI, but can still be useful. snip By the way VTxxx technology goes back at _least_ to the mid 70's - long before 1983 - and if you're trying to do something on a shell account with a slow dialup line, I agree, it "*is* a wonderful thing" ;-) -jdr-
Re: [OT] Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How doIsetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
I never saw a CL until I met the penguin. It's the best thing that ever happened. Because of a video card conflict I couldn't get into KDE to configure KPPP to connect to the net-but if learned I don't have to. It doesn't matter. I did it with CL. It's just one more tool winflop doesn't offer. Pj At 12:38 AM 8/21/00 +1000, you wrote: Mallard wrote: You need to READ SOME MANUALS to be able to program a Mac. You may have to LEARN SOMETHING, and would probably have to spend as many hours as it takes to learn "vi". I'm always somewhat amused by Neal Stephenson's "In the Beginning was the Command Line", when he writes of the Macintosh Programmers Workshop (basically a development environment); "The first thing that Apple's hackers had done when they'd gotten the MacOS up and running - probably even before they'd gotten it up and running - was to recreate the Unix interface, so that they would be able to get some useful work done ... the Mac's vaunted graphical user interface was an impediment, something to be circumvented". So you've got the developers of the Mac unable to do any useful developing using the WIMP interface they designed (does nobody else think that the term WIMP was invented by hackers who thought that by using this interface users were wimping out of actually getting to know their machines?) They needed a CLI to actually program the thing. But then, I still sometimes wish the Mac had never been invented, and that Apple had developed the II line - the IIGS was really quite an incredible machine. Hell, it got sued by the *Beatles* (sort of) for the Ensoniq synth chip - and AFAIK this is the only Apple computer (including Macs) to ever ship with real hardware synth. *And* you can run Unix on an Apple IIGS using GN/OME (not the X-windows thing, this was developed far earlier). One thing is for sure, if you did write a program, it couldn't require all sorts of cool "switches" and some geeky define like program [erftgtgds] [file:tpty] [orthis-geekything] [gre/ggdd/d/df//d.f/d/f/] \ gjgj d\diirrpv True, the Mac has a very user friendly interface. But when you click, your pretty much setting the sort of switches you're complaining about. The Mac is not a hackers machine - ie you can't easily get down into the basis of the system and see what's happening, play with it - you can't see exactly what switches are being set. And I recommend Macs for anybody who doesn't want to do this - if you want a computer to actually do work with and nothing else, I don't think you can do better than a Mac. Check back with Linux in a year or so. If a Mac user has to read a manual, the program sucks! True - but only so far as you're talking about a Mac *user* - not a developer. GREAT! forces the geeks to not be geeks! Damn they hate that. IMHO you can't use a Mac and be a geek/nerd/hacker etc. This is because the Mac will not let you get inside it easily, and I think that anybody who really want's to know how computers work will want to get into every little thing that's going on. NB this is not saying the Mac is a bad thing - just that it's better suited for people who don't want to play with system internals. DOS? Like I said before, it's not 1983 ANY MORE! this command line crap is for the birds. Don't you want to fly like a bird, rather than a flying toaster? You should be using some sort of GUI minimum to access remote machines (like servers). Talk about a waste of time. I think it's all what you're used to. If you know the CLI then it certainly isn't a waste of time - it will run faster than a GUI simply because the machine doesn't need to use as much memory/processing power to draw pictures for you. I think its all a way for geeks to keep their day jobs. make the exec's think you are worth something because you know some cryptic commands you can type in. The more crap you remember, the more you move up the geek ladder. Why do people hang on to VT100 80 X 24 1983 technology like its some sort of wonderful thing? Because VTxxx *is* a wonderful thing in a lot of ways. Read up on it before you say it's out of date. Can be very useful for hooking up old machines that can't handle a GUI, but can still be useful. Get a life! A nerd with a life? Surely that's an oxymoron. :-) Yes, I used to save my programs on paper tape, but if I did it now at a Linux meeting, I would be god like! Damn straight! Just as cool as running Doom on a camera, for all you Slashdot readers. :-) Tom
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How doIsetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
How do I filter out Mallard's hot wind using qmail? -Stephen-
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do Isetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
On Sun, 20 Aug 2000, Stew Benedict wrote: Maybe this list should be moderated. I signed on to pick up some tips and contribute when I could. I get about 80% troll/trash and about 20% useful interaction. For an "expert" list, this is pretty sad. Time to tune up my procmail filter. I disagree on that. Moderation is simply censorship. While I do agree that some of the messages are pointless, censorship in my eyes is just plain wrong. I think if anyone wants censorship, turn on their mail filters themselves. As for me, I enjoy reading some of the garbage that goes thru, especially the VI fiasco. It's simply entertaining. Stew Benedict -- Regards, Ellick Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aug 20
Re: [OT] Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! HowdoIsetthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I never saw a CL until I met the penguin. It's the best thing that ever happened. Because of a video card conflict I couldn't get into KDE to configure KPPP to connect to the net-but if learned I don't have to. It doesn't matter. I did it with CL. It's just one more tool winflop doesn't offer. Pj Hi Pj, All right...I'll bite. What's CL? Mark
[expert] Vi-VIM The editor....
Hello Mark, CL was probably the wrong initials to use. I think correctly it is Command Line Interface and it's a godsend. I seem to have a big permissions problem. I can't use KDE for anything except to play cards because I can't do anything on my machine except as root. Getting on line and answering mail or surfing as /root in Netscape is out of the question. However I can get on line with "ifup", change terminals, log in as /usr and send/receive PINE mail as well as use the "talk" command to contact my guru. Linux us fun and powerful. It just takes time and patience to learn. In my case I need rote..which is what I get with the CLI, so it serves a dual purpose. Pj Hi Pj, All right...I'll bite. What's CL? Mark
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
I tell ya, text-mode DOOM is a very strange thing. :) My word... *this* I'm not familiar with... tell me more! AALib is an ASCII-art graphics library. You can get it from http://horac.ta.jcu.cz/aa/aalib/ -- they've got source and binaries for a number of different platforms. The people that wrote it also made a graphics demo using it (if you are unfamiliar with graphics demos, see PC Demos Explained at http://www.oldskool.org/demos/explained/). One of the things ported to it is DUMB, a DOOM engine. :) -- Ben Reed a.k.a. Ranger Rick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://defiance.dyndns.org/ / http://radio.scenespot.org/ Now playing on Defiance Radio: Die Now, Live Later by KMFDM
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor soI can TRASH IT?
Vic [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 08/16/2000 05:24:36 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: (bcc: Lonny Selinger/SaskPower) Subject: Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor soI can TRASH IT? Then when one is finished, press the escape key or Esc key, this brings it into command mode which one can then type an uppercase Q to telll vi to get ready to quit. This will then get it ready to save to a file, so then type w mytext.txt and it will save whatever you typed in that file into a file named mytext.txt Then if you are done type an x and it should write the info you typed to the file and exit. another way you can do writes (especialy if multiple occurances of an open file exist) is to force write :w! (same idea as doing a write quit to exit) :wq! Now, if you want to edit an existing file, then bring up your terminal window or at your text terminal type vi filename.txt and vi should just pop up with that file in it, and all you have to do to start making changes is to press the i key and use the arrow keys to get down where you want to be and start typeing, then to save your changes, press the Esc key (also called escape key) and then type an upppercase Q and then just type a w and it should save, then type x to quit vi. That is about all I know about vi, I just messed around with it even though I had no use for it at the time, I sometimes use it just to see what it does, pure curiosity. As for why the hell it was written the way it was I have no idea, but it would be helpful if -- vi was written to be a very fast powerful editor with quick easy commands and key sequences for doing editing on huge files etc. Some of the features I tend to take advantage of are things like being able to read system information into a file or executing commands from the command line with standard out being written into the current document. For example: in vi if you wanted to *read in* a directory listing etc while in comand mode you can type :!r ls -l /some/directory the bang "!" passes the argument to the shell, "r" says to read this information into the current file, and then the command you want to execute (this is great for *spur of the moment* logging or if you use vi/vim as your email editor and are trying to get help on something and would like to show the person you are contacting your screen output from a command you ran, you can put it right in your email/file in real time (no cutting and pasting) Another great thing is global search nad replace (substitution). For Example: if for some reason a file you have, has been written and you would like to change every occurance of the word "Workstation" because it should have been "Server", you can change every instance with one line ... even if the file is a GiG long :-) most of these commands are culminatiopns of awk and sed as well as simple shell commands. To do the change I mentioned you would type something like: :g/Workstation/s//Server/g g=apply this globally to whatever is between the / /'s (/Workstation/) s/=substitute g=globally throughout the file (not just the first occurance in each line) One more feature I will bring up (becasue you're probably sick of reading ;-) is the fact that you can actually put litteral escape sequences in files OR remove them. If anyone has copied over a file from a Winblows machine you may have noticed a whack of newline characters or ENTER sequences. These usually show up in the form of ^M this is NOT SHIFT6 captial M ... it is a litteral representation of ENTER. In vi/vim pressing CTRLv while in Insert mode allows you to enter these or using the substitution, remove them. Example: pressing CTRLv and then hitting ENTER will give you the ^M ...if you have a whole bunch of them in a file you can remove tem all byt typing... :g/^M/s///g g=same as above ^M=CTRLv ENTER s/=substitute for whatever is between the second / /'s (this begin nothing .. they are ampty) ;-) I could go on but if you really want to more of the features you can use or even build into vi/vim yourself check the web...its FULL of great info on creating vimrc files as well as explaining all the help tools built into vim. It seems to me that anything worth learning takes lots of time to appreciate ... I hated vi for a long time and stayed with things like pico ...
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
You know what? That argument is akin to say that since there is crap on the TV when you turn it on that you're being forced by the television programmers to watch the crap. There IS a menu under the 'linux' button that will let you choose 'any' editor you wish to use. And if you don't like any of the ones that come preloaded, you can always go out on the net and download another 100 easy. And most of those are FREE! The same way there a channel selector and an 'off' button on your TV! Mark Well, in point of fact, they are. When vi/vim is the "default" editor of choice when you install linux, you ARE forcing people to use vi. Not everyone knows that you can just edit your .bashrc (or /etc/bashrc) to fix this. John
Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
Fredrik Nilsson wrote (in part):
I have made a short list of some useful commands.
WOW, that convinces me, let's see...
I want to copy this word so yw, but wait, I have to tell it what word,
so Mj on over there near it and then yw and then
Mklljjjll on over to where I want it and drop it in (I hope) p then
I want to do some insert, let's see is it i or a, or was it I or A, I
forgot since yesterday, well let me try it... WHOOPS! I lost what I was
doing, pressed dd in error and deleted the whole line. no problem, I am
a geek and want to sit here all night because it's like making love to
my keyboard, gives me a good feeling to press these keys till my fingers
are numb.
I don't care how many wonderful commands it has, TRASH IT! I can't see a
simple editor that allows you to edit a few lines taking any more than
20K, so space or features are not a issue here, it's SIMPLICITY. Cursor
moves with the arrow keys, insert mode always on (backspace eats) and a
simple exit like ESC and it asks you if you want to save changes. More
is not better for simple tasks. Anything that needs more than that and I
will use a GUI editor and FTP the file over if I have to. It's not 1978
anymore! Isn't there something like the Mac user interface guidelines
available online?
--
Exit Commands
--
ZZ Write (save) and quit file
:x Write (save) and quit file
:wq Write (save) and quit file
:w Write (save) file
:w! Write (save) file, overriding protection
:30,60w newfile Write from line 30 through line 60 as newfile
:30,60w file Write from line 30 through line 60 and append to file
:w %.new Write current buffer named file as file.new
:q Quit file
:q! Quit file, overriding protection (e.g. changes made)
--
Movement Command
--
h, j, k and lLeft, down, up and right
w, W, b, B Forward, backward by word
e, E End of word
), ( Beginning of next, previous sentence
}, { Beginning of next, previous paragraph
]], [[ Beginning of next, previous section
HTop line of screen
MMiddle line of screen
LLast line of screen
Ctrl-F Ctrl-BScroll forward, backward one screen
/pattern Search forward for pattern
?pattern Search backward for pattern
GMove to last line in file
nG Move to line number n
--
Editing Commands
--
i, a Insert text before, after cursor
I, A Insert text before beginning, after end of line
o, O Open new line for text below, above cursor
rReplace character
RType over (overwrite) characters
cw Change word
cc Change current line
xDelete character under cursor
XDelete character before cursor
dw Delete word
dd Delete line
yw Yank (copy) word
yy Yank current line
p, P Put deleted/yanked text after, before cursor
Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
Ron Marriage wrote: if you want to use the power and the potential that comes with linux, then you have to get out to the console and learn how to use the professional editors that everyone else will be working with. Power? The power to waste my life away with silly commands I will forget next week if I don't use them every day? Frankly I'm a bit surprised that such a debate even exists on this list. While I could see it occuring on the newbie list for those that intend to exist entirely in their X desktop, In the experts list I'd only expect to see such differences between the Vi and Emacs editor crowd. LOL /2 cents And why do you think all so called computer experts that can program in several languages including machine code, design hardware (read circuitboards), and also machine tools and assemblies (as in vertical mill) are "newbies" because they don't want to waste their life away learning geek tools from 1978? Been there, done that on a teletype. I know you think I should have used punch cards and sent my batch processes off to a "big" room size computer and wait a week for a response, but we grew up out of that period - JUST LIKE NOW! I want to get some work done, not go backwards. Are you still living in 1978 or do you use a GUI?
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Mallard pushed some tiny letters in this order: Fredrik Nilsson wrote (in part): I have made a short list of some useful commands. WOW, that convinces me, let's see... I want to copy this word so yw, but wait, I have to tell it what word, so Mj on over there near it and then yw and then Mklljjjll on over to where I want it and drop it in (I hope) p then I thank the poster of the abbreviated command list for his attempt to help those struggling to understand vim. It wasn't an attempt to convince anyone of vi's superiority it was just a bit of friendly help. How is M etc. any harder from dos edit's "I want to copy this word so I have to go to line X with the arrow up/down keys, move over to the word using the arrow left/right keys, highlight the word using shift left arrow until it's done, press ctrl-c move back to the line where I want to put it using arrow keys again, press ctrl-v" ? If anything using vim's left 1 word/right 1 word key should speed things up in this instance. Note also that you can also use the arrow keys in vim to do the same. I want to do some insert, let's see is it i or a, or was it I or A, I forgot since yesterday, well let me try it... WHOOPS! I lost what I was Switching to an editing mode you can use any of those keys and a few more too. They all accomplish different things. doing, pressed dd in error and deleted the whole line. no problem, I am a geek and want to sit here all night because it's like making love to my keyboard, gives me a good feeling to press these keys till my fingers are numb. If you ever press dd in error then just issue :u to undo what you just did. If you're ever asking yourself "Am I in command mode or an editing mode??" then 'set showmode on' in your .vimrc will fix that. Vim is designed so that you have less typing to do not more, the trade off being a bit more of a learning curve. I don't care how many wonderful commands it has, TRASH IT! I can't see a simple editor that allows you to edit a few lines taking any more than 20K, so space or features are not a issue here, it's SIMPLICITY. Cursor moves with the arrow keys, insert mode always on (backspace eats) and a In vim the cursor DOES move with the arrow keys. When insert mode is on backspace DOES eat characters. Are you sure you aren't running vim in the horrid 'vi compatibility mode' ? If you want simplicity then by all means feel free to use pico. simple exit like ESC and it asks you if you want to save changes. More is not better for simple tasks. Anything that needs more than that and I will use a GUI editor and FTP the file over if I have to. It's not 1978 anymore! Isn't there something like the Mac user interface guidelines available online? No-one is forcing you to use vim. If you don't like it use something else! Can we kill this thread please? The best thing to come out of it would be for Mandrakesoft to take the suggestion of a default editor selection at installation time because complaining how vi sucks or how vi rocks so much at length is just igniting a holy flame war.
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the defaulteditor so I can TRASH IT?
On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Mallard wrote:
Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is
suposto be easy for users?
Anyone else seen this joke of a program?
With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to get it give
you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long
whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will forget a day
after you use them. Please get rid of it!
Try ":qw" to get out and save what you just did WTF is that? Did a human
design this? That is if you figure out how to get into "insert" mode and
out of it again. GET RID OF THIS! TRASH IT! Ban it from the Net!
Couldn't use "X" or "E" for exit or maybe cntl-X or Z, no - had to be
big geeks and do it some STUPID way. What the hell were these guys
thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake support this?
Trash it!
Yea, I am pissed. All I wanted to do is set up my cron file ("crontab
-e") and that brings up the "default" editor. Searching all over to find
where the "default" editor is set up, couldn't find it. Another waste of
time.
I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It has zillions
of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors that have a
better human interface than terminals did, get a life geeks! (directed
at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim")
Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico,
where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a command line
editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are better simple
editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off, and on top of
that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to "vim" (worse
geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who!
Figure if someone is a big enough geek to want vim, let them spend their
life away trying to figure it out (and how to change the default editor
to do it).
Thanks for the soapbox, I had my say (please forward this to whoever
makes these program installation choices, if he's not a big geek that
is).
Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest. Anyone else
feel like I do about this?
You don't like vi? OK. It's your choice (thrust me, it's not mine! I
love this editor!). But if you are too subjective and lazy to realize that
it is one of the most powerfull text based editor available, then I think
that your default editor should be ... Notepad.
--
There's no place like ~ !
Jean-Philippe Gois
e-systems - information technology
Av Jean Mermoz 22
B-6041 Gosselies, Belgium
tel +32 (0) 71 34 94 00
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! a little morecoddling?
on 8/15/00 8:50 PM, Tony McGee wrote: On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Gavin Clark pushed some tiny letters in this order: I'm not saying get rid of it at all, just make something else the default. it would be an easy thing to have vi come up as a choice for experts during the install. An installation choice has been the best idea to come out of this thread. This is Mandrake after all, IMHO the distribution most suited to the widest range of experience from newbies right up to experts. How do we get this into 7.2? now there's an idea. linux should have the command #tutorial nnn, like man, but it pops up a clearly written dummy's guide with lots of examples. I don't think there's a tutorial command Then I hereby propose it. I agree that there is a lot of documentation and help out there but you really have to hunt for it. It is scattered all over the place, most of it is on line so you need the network connection to be running. There is a need for clear and concise explanations and examples right at your finger tips. A public domain tutorial along the lines of a dummies book for each command, available from the command line, would be an immense help. The sheer number of UNIX books out there testify to the short comings of man pages, and the how-tos can't help if you're not sure what you're looking for. The problem isn't with the lack of documentation out there, in my experience it's that nobody bothers to read it before running to the nearest mailing list/newsgroup/guru/whatever. I'll put my New Guy hat on and tell you why. ;-) That's because there's nothing telling the new guy where to find that documentation. There should be a big button on the desktop that say 'click me for help' which pops up info on all the help and docs that are installed on the machine, and tells you about man pages and how to get them. It should mention little tricks like #command --help. Netscape ought to come with a list of bookmarks to inline docs of all sorts (I'd gladly give up those BS shopping links). OK, I know there IS a help link there but both Win and the Mac pop up a big window right in your face the first time you start that says "hey new guy, read this!" Sure, that will annoy a power user but he can make it go away and the new guy needs it. I've already gone through my learning curve so it's too late for me but as Linux get adopted more and more widely those using it will be less and less technically inclined, "RTFM" as an answer won't cut it - they won't even know there is one. If you're going to lead the masses out of the darkness then you are going to have to hold their hand. A truly powerful system should do just that. All I'm asking for is that this thing be perfect, that shouldn't be so hard considering that half the world is working on it. ;-) Gavin
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
Oh dear Oh dear
I could guess a discussion of the merits of vi(m) would cause much argument.
I have been using UNIX variants for 12 years now.
And have run courses on UNIX and editors such as vi.
I also am a great fan of Windows based computing for ease of use purposes.
I also don't understand the problem - I have installed Mandrake 7 recently and
have edited all sorts of files from the GUI - why can't this be done here?
As far as ease of use - well yes - it is easier to use a GUI editor for small
changes.
There IS some learning to use any new program - especially if it is text based.
BUT for vi you only need to know 9 commands to do almost anything you want.
a - append after character
i - insert at character
x - delete current character
dd - delete line
ESC - exit editing mode
Next 3 for exiting:
wq - write changes (save) and quit
wq! - write changes and quit (forced) even if file is read only
q! - quit with no changes written
arrow keys - move around file
Main rule - always press ESCAPE key to ensure no commands are running
There are many more commands adding seriously powerful editing ability.
I think my message is - calm down and use what suits you best.
On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Mallard wrote:
Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is
suposto be easy for users?
Anyone else seen this joke of a program?
With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to get it give
you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long
whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will forget a day
after you use them. Please get rid of it!
Try ":qw" to get out and save what you just did WTF is that? Did a human
design this? That is if you figure out how to get into "insert" mode and
out of it again. GET RID OF THIS! TRASH IT! Ban it from the Net!
Couldn't use "X" or "E" for exit or maybe cntl-X or Z, no - had to be
big geeks and do it some STUPID way. What the hell were these guys
thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake support this?
Trash it!
Yea, I am pissed. All I wanted to do is set up my cron file ("crontab
-e") and that brings up the "default" editor. Searching all over to find
where the "default" editor is set up, couldn't find it. Another waste of
time.
I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It has zillions
of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors that have a
better human interface than terminals did, get a life geeks! (directed
at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim")
Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico,
where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a command line
editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are better simple
editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off, and on top of
that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to "vim" (worse
geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who!
Figure if someone is a big enough geek to want vim, let them spend their
life away trying to figure it out (and how to change the default editor
to do it).
Thanks for the soapbox, I had my say (please forward this to whoever
makes these program installation choices, if he's not a big geek that
is).
Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest. Anyone else
feel like I do about this?
You don't like vi? OK. It's your choice (thrust me, it's not mine! I
love this editor!). But if you are too subjective and lazy to realize that
it is one of the most powerfull text based editor available, then I think
that your default editor should be ... Notepad.
--
There's no place like ~ !
Jean-Philippe Gois
e-systems - information technology
Av Jean Mermoz 22
B-6041 Gosselies, Belgium
tel +32 (0) 71 34 94 00
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set thedefaulteditor so I can TRASH IT?
On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, Ron Marriage wrote: While my favorite editor is emacs, I have to say that anyone that considers themselves an expert owes it to themselves to learn vi(m). An emacser saying a good thing about vi! What IS the world coming to! There are times when only it will do the job, partly because it might be the only editor available but because it is always included in every dist. or UNIX. Think of it as a basic skill that has to be learned. Very True. It should also be noted that all programmers should _try_ emacs for a few weeks sometime in their life. Many find it to be a life changing experience. If you've never used emacs, you won't believe what a text editor can do. (NB: I use vi in my Unix editing, not everyone is bitten by the emacs bug after trying it grin.) This is the "Experts" list and anyone here might prefer to use pico on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean they will not have use of vi(m), and they should begin learning it to be ready for the day they move into the heady relm of expert in linux. Absolutely. If you get thrown into managing ANY other Unix, and if you manage Linux at work you very well might, then you NEED vi. Old Sun boxes without enough hard drive to install anything else to new OS X boxes where compiling anything is iffy at best have vi. It runs on any terminal emulator. You may not love it, but it IS an essential tool. Frankly I'm a bit surprised that such a debate even exists on this list. While I could see it occuring on the newbie list for those that intend to exist entirely in their X desktop, In the experts list I'd only expect to see such differences between the Vi and Emacs editor crowd. LOL /2 cents Oh no! vi vs. emacs! I've seen usenet threads get into the high hundreds on that one. Arrrgh! Run away! Run away! -burk -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! a little morecoddling?
As a new user I have enjoyed this thread a great deal because I got a glimpse at Vi editor thru it. I'm a Winflop user and hate it..which is why I am slowly moving into Linux, but I have an advantage. My guru is a Linuxgod/power user/debugger who is holding my hand. I've gotten over my love for GUI - except to play cards - and actually like command line. It beats winflop hands down. The biggest problem winflop users encounter is the differences between the two operating systems. It's impossible not to look for comparisons if only for a reference point. MC menu "looks" a lot like it's DOS counterpart because of the color and form, but that's where the comparison ends. The two are as much alike as a sloop and cow. And the Linux learning curve is horrendous. Man pages are written in Greek - or should I say Geek? Mandrake is bleeding edge technology for sure, but it's my feeling that if they wish to court the desktop set they are going to have to do more than include KDE and their best wishes. A broken KDE isn't any better than winflop, and we need some type of simple text editor that acts like a typewriter so we can send mom those long, rambling letters and create small HTML pages to amuse her. I'd like to learn to use Gimp. It locks up every time I try to scroll the font list. Why? I was told it is because the fonts are missing. Great. How am I supposed to learn to recognize fonts if I can't see them? I don't have a clue what avantgard or babledable looks like, or the sizes that can be displayed, and I haven't yet figured out why the missing fonts are listed in the first place. I'd rather see five fonts that are included than lock up on 20 that are not. Mandrake is in it's infancy in terms of age, but it's going places fast, and it's gaining ground every day. The developers do a great job and they work hard to put out a good product. Yes, some improvements and changes can be made and they are being made, but I think it's going to take more than a few newbies to coax them into the changes we would love to see--especially when we trash their product on this list. I used Pico a few times. It isn't my editor of choice but it will do until something better - that I can use - comes along. I use a small, free (750k) no-frills editor from Norway that is dual function. I can write a letter, or click an icon, and write html code. If I can use it under Wine it will solve my basic writing problems. If we want the developers to help us like they did a year ago when Denis, Steve, Civileme, Axalon, Jean-Michael, Ramon, Dave, Brian, and others like them, were watching the list and responding then we have to change our collective attitudes. The power users and guru's are lurking in the shadows watching this list but they are silent as are many of the sys admins and networking guru's who used to be very active. The temper tantrums, cursing, rudeness and trashing the best Linux product available will not get custom scripts or hand holding when we need it the most. Yeh, they used to do that too and on a daily basis. Pj At 02:16 AM 8/16/00 -0700, you wrote: on 8/15/00 8:50 PM, Tony McGee wrote: On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Gavin Clark pushed some tiny letters in this order: I'm not saying get rid of it at all, just make something else the default. it would be an easy thing to have vi come up as a choice for experts during the install. An installation choice has been the best idea to come out of this thread. This is Mandrake after all, IMHO the distribution most suited to the widest range of experience from newbies right up to experts. How do we get this into 7.2? now there's an idea. linux should have the command #tutorial nnn, like man, but it pops up a clearly written dummy's guide with lots of examples. I don't think there's a tutorial command Then I hereby propose it. I agree that there is a lot of documentation and help out there but you really have to hunt for it. It is scattered all over the place, most of it is on line so you need the network connection to be running. There is a need for clear and concise explanations and examples right at your finger tips. A public domain tutorial along the lines of a dummies book for each command, available from the command line, would be an immense help. The sheer number of UNIX books out there testify to the short comings of man pages, and the how-tos can't help if you're not sure what you're looking for. The problem isn't with the lack of documentation out there, in my experience it's that nobody bothers to read it before running to the nearest mailing list/newsgroup/guru/whatever. I'll put my New Guy hat on and tell you why. ;-) That's because there's nothing telling the new guy where to find that documentation. There should be a big button on the desktop that say 'click me for help' which pops up info on all the help and docs that are installed on the machine, and tells you about man pages and how to get them. It should mention
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! a little more coddling?
Apologies in advance for the long rant... :-) On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Gavin Clark pushed some tiny letters in this order: An installation choice has been the best idea to come out of this thread. This How do we get this into 7.2? I'm sure there's at least *some* developers at mandrakesoft reading this list regularly? Hint-hint? ;-) now there's an idea. linux should have the command #tutorial nnn, like man, but it pops up a clearly written dummy's guide with lots of examples. I don't think there's a tutorial command Then I hereby propose it. I agree that there is a lot of documentation and help out there but you really have to hunt for it. It is scattered all over the place, most of it is on line so you need the network connection to be running. There is a need for clear and concise explanations and examples right at your finger tips. A public domain tutorial along the lines of a dummies book for each command, available from the command line, would be an immense help. The sheer number of UNIX books out there testify to the short comings of man pages, and the how-tos can't help if you're not sure what you're looking for. Out of the box in KDE there's a 'Documentation' sub-menu directly on the main K menu (maybe for GNOME too?) that has a detailed Mandrake user's guide and reference, KDE help tutorial and application reference with search capability, 'Rute' - a VERY detailed Linux newbies guide (in particular chapter 15 "Pre-installed Documentation" showing where to go for more info such as /usr/doc ), a how-to list and GUI man page reader. All in the one place and all located on the local hard drive. I'll admit that *some* documentation is a little too terse for a non-technical person but the vast majority is very good at explaining how the system works and what you can do with it. If you're going to hypothesise that the quantity of books on the shelf in a bookstore has a negative reflection on the quality of the system documentation then don't overlook that books about Microsoft Windows and accompanying applications probably out-number Linux books by 10 to 1. The problem isn't with the lack of documentation out there, in my experience it's that nobody bothers to read it before running to the nearest mailing list/newsgroup/guru/whatever. I'll put my New Guy hat on and tell you why. ;-) *snip* I've already gone through my learning curve so it's too late for me but as Linux get adopted more and more widely those using it will be less and less technically inclined, "RTFM" as an answer won't cut it - they won't even know there is one. I've participated in Linux chat rooms and am involved in Linux discussions so I know that the people with the freely given knowledge have a limited amount of time and patience, after all they're only human. :-) The way I see it, It breaks down roughly like this - If you have a simple problem like "how do I get a directory listing?" that's solved within a small amount of time the answer is almost never RTFM even though it's a question asked over and over again. (and partly because it takes less effort to type 'ls' than it does 'RTFM') ;-) - If you have a more involved problem like "I want to write a Linux game or GUI application in C, how do I do that?" the answer can only be given by a few pointers to documentation and an essential 'RTFM'. More importantly someone who truly wants to help an obvious newbie with a request will also say something "and this is where you might find the manual..." rather than just "RTFM". If Linux gets adopted as a mainstream desktop operating system you can also be sure that people paid to render technical support will exhaust every possible avenue before giving a RTFM response. If you're going to lead the masses out of the darkness then you are going to have to hold their hand. A truly powerful system should do just that. A truly powerful system also shouldn't cripple the way power users work just so that newer users can migrate to the system as easy as cake. I agree that Linux should be more forgiving for the newbie. I'm also hoping that Linux does move towards the desktop. However if it's at the expense of the current general system stability and/or power user effeciency then it's not worth it. has been Something that I forgot to mention in one of my other replies to is that I don't think users are necessarily afraid of Linux and/or computers as much as they are afraid of change. If you've been taught to do something one way and have been doing it the one same way for years then of course something different is going to take a little getting used to. I've seen complete computer novices shake their head trying to work out how windows works when no-one is there to teach them. Once they do know how it works then they're fine. The same thing applies to Linux. All I'm asking for is that this thing be perfect, that shouldn't be so hard considering that half the world is working
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim
Gentlemen, PLEASE! No editor wars. Neither of you will convince the other, and all you will do is waste your time and that of the rest of the folks on this list. On Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 05:09:08PM +1000, Tony McGee wrote: On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Mallard pushed some tiny letters in this order: Fredrik Nilsson wrote (in part): I have made a short list of some useful commands. WOW, that convinces me, let's see... I want to copy this word so yw, but wait, I have to tell it what word, so Mj on over there near it and then yw and then Mklljjjll on over to where I want it and drop it in (I hope) p then I thank the poster of the abbreviated command list for his attempt to help those struggling to understand vim. It wasn't an attempt to convince anyone of vi's superiority it was just a bit of friendly help. How is M etc. any harder from dos edit's "I want to copy this word so I have to go to line X with the arrow up/down keys, move over to the word using the arrow left/right keys, highlight the word using shift left arrow until it's done, press ctrl-c move back to the line where I want to put it using arrow keys again, press ctrl-v" ? If anything using vim's left 1 word/right 1 word key should speed things up in this instance. Note also that you can also use the arrow keys in vim to do the same. I want to do some insert, let's see is it i or a, or was it I or A, I forgot since yesterday, well let me try it... WHOOPS! I lost what I was -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley PGP signature
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
I guess that's why I use it. I want to get some serious work done. There is no problem here. If you don't want to use it then don't. The point might be that linux isn't yet ready for the average Mac or MS user, yet. While you don't have to know all the commands, you can in a few minutes of reading you can know the main ones you will use. Over time you learn more. One of the great things about linux is that there are many different ways to do any task. Each of us can choose to do them as we wish. Even the Mac has a learning curve to it. Years of experience in one OS doesn't mean that you don't start out as a newbie on a new OS. I gave my two cents worth, I'm now done with this thread. We won't change your opinion, and you won't change anyone elses. Hey, that's OK, it's why we all like Linux. Ron - Original Message - From: "Mallard" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 2:41 AM Subject: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT? Ron Marriage wrote: if you want to use the power and the potential that comes with linux, then you have to get out to the console and learn how to use the professional editors that everyone else will be working with. Power? The power to waste my life away with silly commands I will forget next week if I don't use them every day? Frankly I'm a bit surprised that such a debate even exists on this list. While I could see it occuring on the newbie list for those that intend to exist entirely in their X desktop, In the experts list I'd only expect to see such differences between the Vi and Emacs editor crowd. LOL /2 cents And why do you think all so called computer experts that can program in several languages including machine code, design hardware (read circuitboards), and also machine tools and assemblies (as in vertical mill) are "newbies" because they don't want to waste their life away learning geek tools from 1978? Been there, done that on a teletype. I know you think I should have used punch cards and sent my batch processes off to a "big" room size computer and wait a week for a response, but we grew up out of that period - JUST LIKE NOW! I want to get some work done, not go backwards. Are you still living in 1978 or do you use a GUI?
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
I must be missing something here. The editor I get when I type "vi" in a console/terminal/whatever is simple to use. Cursor keys work just as I expect them to. If I want to start inserting stuff, I just type an i and the word INSERT appears at the bottom. Then I move around with the cursor keys, typing what I want, using the delete and backspace keys as I would in any other editor, and make all the changes I need. Hit escape, the word INSERT goes away. type :w then :q and I'm back at the prompt, all my changes nicely saved. What's so hard about that? Even the old DOS "edit.exe" wasn't any easier. If that's too hard to learn how to do, the person isn't a newbie, they're an idiot. Yes, I know there are advanced features that require learning a little more to use, but by the time I need them I've fixed the conf file that was preventing me from starting X, and I use a GUI editor, which is what all the whiners seem to want, anyway.
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, you wrote: No-one is forcing you to use vim. If you don't like it use something else! Can we kill this thread please? The best thing to come out of it would be for Mandrakesoft to take the suggestion of a default editor selection at installation time because complaining how vi sucks or how vi rocks so much at length is just igniting a holy flame war. Well, in point of fact, they are. When vi/vim is the "default" editor of choice when you install linux, you ARE forcing people to use vi. Not everyone knows that you can just edit your .bashrc (or /etc/bashrc) to fix this. John
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim
Gentlemen, PLEASE! No editor wars. Neither of you will convince the other, and all you will do is waste your time and that of the rest of the folks on this list. On Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 05:09:08PM +1000, Tony McGee wrote: On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Mallard pushed some tiny letters in this order: Fredrik Nilsson wrote (in part): I have made a short list of some useful commands. WOW, that convinces me, let's see... I want to copy this word so yw, but wait, I have to tell it what word, so Mj on over there near it and then yw and then Mklljjjll on over to where I want it and drop it in (I hope) p then I thank the poster of the abbreviated command list for his attempt to help those struggling to understand vim. It wasn't an attempt to convince anyone of vi's superiority it was just a bit of friendly help. How is M etc. any harder from dos edit's "I want to copy this word so I have to go to line X with the arrow up/down keys, move over to the word using the arrow left/right keys, highlight the word using shift left arrow until it's done, press ctrl-c move back to the line where I want to put it using arrow keys again, press ctrl-v" ? If anything using vim's left 1 word/right 1 word key should speed things up in this instance. Note also that you can also use the arrow keys in vim to do the same. I want to do some insert, let's see is it i or a, or was it I or A, I forgot since yesterday, well let me try it... WHOOPS! I lost what I was -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley PGP signature
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, John Aldrich pushed some tiny letters in this order: On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, you wrote: No-one is forcing you to use vim. If you don't like it use something else! Can we kill this thread please? The best thing to come out of it would be for Mandrakesoft to take the suggestion of a default editor selection at installation time because complaining how vi sucks or how vi rocks so much at length is just igniting a holy flame war. Well, in point of fact, they are. When vi/vim is the "default" editor of choice when you install linux, you ARE forcing people to use vi. Not everyone knows that you can just edit your .bashrc (or /etc/bashrc) to fix this. John What are the programs that use this environment variable? I just typed `echo $EDITOR` at a prompt and received nothing. I haven't modified any of the system wide profile files or my own .bashrc file since installation, neither have I received any warnings that the env variable isn't set. Tony
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, you wrote: What are the programs that use this environment variable? I just typed `echo $EDITOR` at a prompt and received nothing. I haven't modified any of the system wide profile files or my own .bashrc file since installation, neither have I received any warnings that the env variable isn't set. Add to .bashrc "export editor=your favorite editor here" My .bashrc has "export EDITOR=joe" in it. I think that if you want something OTHER than the default, you have to specify it that way. SOMEWHERE in one of the default config files, there is an editor specified, and that editor DEFAULTS to vi in every case that I've seen. John
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, you wrote: What's so hard about that? Even the old DOS "edit.exe" wasn't any easier. If that's too hard to learn how to do, the person isn't a newbie, they're an idiot. Yes, I know there are advanced features that require learning a little more to use, but by the time I need them I've fixed the conf file that was preventing me from starting X, and I use a GUI editor, which is what all the whiners seem to want, anyway. If i'm in X I use KDE's text editor, if not, I like MC. I'm a long time newbie and the choice and diffrences in editors was readily apparent to me. I don't think from a new users perspective Mandrake needs to change anything. The reason I bothered to vote tho, is to mention that for dual booters (win/Linux) that many newbie's are, Windoze 'edit' is great for converting UNIX style text to DOS (ie, the \n deal). Just open a UNIX txt file with edit and it will appear properly formatted, then just save it to the same file name and presto, it's a DOS file. -- ~~ Tom Brinkman[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! a littlemorecoddling?
If we want the developers to help us like they did a year ago when Denis, Steve, Civileme, Axalon, Jean-Michael, Ramon, Dave, Brian, and others like them, were watching the list and responding then we have to change our collective attitudes. The power users and guru's are lurking in the shadows watching this list but they are silent as are many of the sys admins and networking guru's who used to be very active. Unfortunately a lot of us are really busy too. We help when we can, with what we can off the top of our heads. Sheldon.
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
What are the programs that use this environment variable? I just typed `echo $EDITOR` at a prompt and received nothing. I haven't modified any of the system wide profile files or my own .bashrc file since installation, neither have I received any warnings that the env variable isn't set. ...right, and hasn't this whole conversation been about what's default? :) When it's unset, vi is used by any sane program that needs something to fall back to, because it's almost guaranteed to be on every UNIX system in existence. Whether you like it or not, vi is the default *because it is default to most every UNIX variant*. :) It's ubiquitous. It's everywhere. -- Ben Reed ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://defiance.dyndns.org/ Fight the InterNIC! http://www.opennic.unrated.net/
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefaulteditor so I can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, John Aldrich wrote: Well, in point of fact, they are. When vi/vim is the "default" editor of choice when you install linux, you ARE forcing people to use vi. Not everyone knows that you can just edit your .bashrc (or /etc/bashrc) to fix this. John I don't agree. I may be wrong, but I think that there is simply no $EDITOR variable set during mandrake install. AFAIK, most program look for this environnement variable, and, if it does not exist (wich is apparently the case), they use vi. It is a *nix standard, nothing to do with mandrake. I agree with this standard, for several reason already given and explained earlier in this tread. HTH Flupke -- There's no place like ~ !
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set thedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
Submitted 15-Aug-00 by Gavin Clark: I'm not saying get rid of it at all, just make something else the default. it would be an easy thing to have vi come up as a choice for experts during the install. Problem is newbies are the ones most likely to trash their installations and need a rescue disk without a clearly defined plan of action. For these individuals, vi is the only editor guaranteed to be running on the system. the others are all in the /usr tree and/or linked to some library in the /usr/lib heirarchy. Also the file that has been suggested for making the modification is a system-wide configuration file that would load even in the event of a catastophic failure. So then $EDITOR points to an inaccessible binary and we get 10,000 complaints on the list about "It crashed and now I can't edit anything." everyone keeps saying how this has been around for 20 years, well that's plenty of time to add a line at the top with : 'type this for help', 'do this to save', 'do this to quit' If you start it without a filename, it DOES tell you how to get help, thankyouverymuch. currently vi is one of those 'you have to know the secret handshake' programs. Vi is no more (and some say less) cryptic than emacs, and between the two programs, you have more than 70% of the text editing market in *nix operating systems. For ^%%* sake, the way you edit command lines is based specifically on either emacs or vi (one variable determines it). Half of the text based interactive utilities are based in one way or another on the same keybindings as one of those two. apparent help, no feedback, nothing. The first time I used vi I had to pull the plug on the computer because I couldn't figure out how to make it quit. This still has me rolling on the floor. Turning off a multitasking computer to kill a single app when it would have taken less than a minute to look it up in *any* Unix/Linux book. I do not understand how people can justify spending hundreds of dollars on books to tell them that "this program works like half the other windows programs you've used," and not purchase a single reference for an operating system whose roots go back to long before Seattle Software wrote DOS. Actually I'm coming at this from the Mac side, where if you have to read the manual the program sucks. ;-) But this is *not* a point and click OS. The GUI (X) is an application that sits on top of the OS. The Mac was designed from the ground up to be so friendly that I actually know people who refused to buy them in the 80's *because* of the same interface that you enjoy. What seems "intuitive" to the point-and-click generation of computer users does not necessarily make any sense to somebody who built his first computer from a $600 kit that had a glorious 4K of RAM. Comparing the Mac to a Linux machine is like comparing a sedan to a lorry. They'll both get you there, but the sedan is a easier to operate. And usability doesn't mean ridiculously easy - it means effective. It means both. No, it doesn't. A jet fighter is terribly effective at what it does, but it is not an easy thing to learn to use. And therein lies the basic principle upon which subjective useability is built. I have the Wordstar key sequences burned into the back of my brain from years of using it. I can hit those two character control sequences in my sleep, but somebody who didn't use a word processor until 1987 or so likely never had to deal with such a bizaare system (unless they used Borland's IDEs). The bottom line is those keybindings make sense to me because I had to learn them. To somebody who's idea of an early word processor is WordPerfect 4.2 it would be gibberish and totally unuseable. For me it comes down to this, power tools are not for children. And some of those tools include the one that sparked this whole thread. If you do enough of your homework to understand cron, then you bleeding well ought to have brains enough to read the frigging docs. RANT (Well, as if I wasn't already, but. . .) This thread seems to me to have started because somebody wanted to switch to linux for all the wrong reasons. The most popular of these wrong reasons is that it isn't a Microsoft product. In the past two years, Linux has grown tremendously as various projects outside the central Linux effort matured. Anyone who has ever run X11R3 knows that it wasn't exactly what you would call more than "functional". Before the development of Win95, DOS did have some minor competition from extremely overpriced unices (System V and SCO come to mind), and a product called DR-DOS, originally developed by Digital Research (the people who brought you GEM). Alternative OSes are not something new, and they aren't going away. (Despite what some people seem to think.) Other than the complaints (like this one) that certain commands/apps are to cryptically oriented, the biggest complaint we hear as Linux users is the lack of game support. Most of these
Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
Anton Graham wrote: Problem is newbies are the ones most likely to trash their installations and need a rescue disk without a clearly defined plan of action. For these individuals, vi is the only editor guaranteed to be running on the system. the others are all in the /usr tree and/or linked to some library in the /usr/lib heirarchy. So put a big RED sticker on the disk with "WARNING: You may need to go buy a book to learn how to use the overboard, overdesigned, lots of features editor on this disk called "vi". It uses strange key sequences since the programmer lived on another planet when he wrote it. We could have put a simple editor like pico on this disk, but why bother? We are geeks and know all this stuff so you should too. It's too bad if you don't like it, but we like all this old stuff we started with when we were in high school and can't let go of it." That sounds like a clearly defined plan. Just like pressing ESC to get into another mode so you can exit. This whole thread shows how the geeks won't let go of this stuff and thus Linux won't make it against winDOS or Mac. I can see Bill G. laughing all the way to the bank. People shouldn't need to know ANYTHING about computers to use one, or read all sorts of documentation to get something done on one. The next generation of OS that makes it will the one that is programmed to interface with a human without a learning curve. Geeks will hate it.
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
This whole thread shows how the geeks won't let go of this stuff and thus Linux won't make it against winDOS or Mac. I can see Bill G. laughing all the way to the bank. No, all it shows is the difference in requirements between someone who works with system administration and flat-file text editing for hours a day and the casual user who only rarely needs to edit a system configuration file. Different editors have different uses. With practice, vi can be one of the fastest ways to do heavy text-editing tasks. If you don't have need for those tasks, it will seem cryptic and useless, but that doesn't mean that's how it is for everyone. In DOS I tend to use Notepad or EDIT, as I usually have to do very little text editing. In UNIX I'm usually coding, and the time it takes to learn the (admittedly) numerous vi commands more than makes up for the time it saves in actual use. It all comes down to "to each his own". -- Ben Reed a.k.a. Ranger Rick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://defiance.dyndns.org/ / http://radio.scenespot.org/ Now playing on Defiance Radio: The Caterpillar by The Cure
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefaulteditor so I can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, John Aldrich wrote: On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, you wrote: No-one is forcing you to use vim. If you don't like it use something else! Can we kill this thread please? The best thing to come out of it would be for Mandrakesoft to take the suggestion of a default editor selection at installation time because complaining how vi sucks or how vi rocks so much at length is just igniting a holy flame war. Well, in point of fact, they are. When vi/vim is the "default" editor of choice when you install linux, you ARE forcing people to use vi. Not everyone knows that you can just edit your .bashrc (or /etc/bashrc) to fix this. Exactly how much hand-holding are we expecting here? The whine quotient on this thread is rising rapidly. Power tools are not for kids - exactly. Linux is a power tool, and power is inversely proportional to ease of use. When I sit down to use Linux, I expect to have to do a bit of homework. In exchange for that effort I get a system that does what I want it to when I tell it to. If you guys want Windows, use Windows. I stopped using Windows for a reason. Please don't ruin the only good thing I have left. Thanks. -Stephen-
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the defaulteditor so I can TRASH IT?
Oh, and another thing: This *is* an expert list. Experts usually know how to use a basic editor and how to change the default editor when they need to. -Stephen-
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, you wrote: Oh, and another thing: This *is* an expert list. Experts usually know how to use a basic editor and how to change the default editor when they need to. -Stephen- Excellent point. Can't this thread just die? I think the only thing that could have been more flamebaitish is a, "Why don't you stupid linux users just use windows". This is stupid folks! Can we keep the topic in the same time zone as linux help and troubleshooting on *EXPERT* level topics? This is the 3rd religious war in the last 2 weeks to exceed the actual number of *REAL* messages posted to the list. -- -David Talbot * So long as the government has the power to invade our lives, rummage through our records, and take what it wants from our income, we will have only as much freedom and take-home pay as the politicians condescend to let us have. -Harry Browne Libertarian Canidate for President (www.HarryBrowne2000.org) **
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefaulteditor soI can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Mallard wrote: So put a big RED sticker on the disk with "WARNING: You may need to go buy a book to learn how to use the overboard, overdesignedBLA BLA BLA HOT AIR SNIP Okay, Mallard - I have a suggestion for you. YOU make new Linux distribution for non-geeks. But don't expect any geeks to help you write it. Enjoy. -Stephen-
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL!
People shouldn't need to know ANYTHING about computers to use one, or read all sorts of documentation to get something done on one. The next generation of OS that makes it will the one that is programmed to interface with a human without a learning curve. Geeks will hate it. In the words of Bugs Bunny... "What a maroon !"
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor soI can TRASH IT?
Gee that was helpful-NOT. But at least somewhat sympathetic Ok I'm going to type something helpful when calling vi/vim up, first one needs to press the i key for insert, this will enable the user to start typing letters into the text file (or C or C++ or whatever its used for) and hit the enter key (or return key) as usually done when typing plain text into an editor. Then when one is finished, press the escape key or Esc key, this brings it into command mode which one can then type an uppercase Q to telll vi to get ready to quit. This will then get it ready to save to a file, so then type w mytext.txt and it will save whatever you typed in that file into a file named mytext.txt Then if you are done type an x and it should write the info you typed to the file and exit. Now, if you want to edit an existing file, then bring up your terminal window or at your text terminal type vi filename.txt and vi should just pop up with that file in it, and all you have to do to start making changes is to press the i key and use the arrow keys to get down where you want to be and start typeing, then to save your changes, press the Esc key (also called escape key) and then type an upppercase Q and then just type a w and it should save, then type x to quit vi. That is about all I know about vi, I just messed around with it even though I had no use for it at the time, I sometimes use it just to see what it does, pure curiosity. As for why the hell it was written the way it was I have no idea, but it would be helpful if the docs were written a little more in example mode for beginners as well as advanced users. Sorry, just my 2 cents On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, you wrote: I'm sorry you are having trouble, but getting frustrated doesn't help. -Stephen-
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor soI can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, you wrote: Gee that was helpful-NOT. But at least somewhat sympathetic Ok I'm going to type something helpful -- snip --- As for why the hell it was written the way it was I have no idea, but it would be helpful if the docs were written a little more in example mode for beginners as well as advanced users. -Stephen- Great Stephen! That is the biggest failing of many who write documents. Examples to show a point is better than a thousand words. The writer may know the exact commands and syntax, but examples will show the world in a clearer form. Thanks, Don -- 73 de KK6WJ
Re: Re Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, Mallard wrote: Can you please at least have some respect for the choices of others. The comments on this thread are all turning into flames. Asking Mandrake to change the default editor is one thing, but that doesn't have to involve flaming vi. WOW, that convinces me, let's see... I want to copy this word so yw, but wait, I have to tell it what word, so Mj on over there near it and then yw and then Mklljjjll on over to where I want it and drop it in (I hope) p then I want to do some insert, let's see is it i or a, or was it I or A, I forgot since yesterday, well let me try it... WHOOPS! I lost what I was doing, pressed dd in error and deleted the whole line. no problem, I am a geek and want to sit here all night because it's like making love to my keyboard, gives me a good feeling to press these keys till my fingers are numb. -- Regards, Ellick Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aug 15
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
OK, I'm going to start twit filtering EVERYONE who participates in this thread. It is off topic, and degenrating into infantile noise. Let it die, people. A twit filter, for you newbies, means I will set procmail to discard any mail that comes from the designated twit. this means I will never see any requests for help the twit makes. If enough people do it, the twit will effectively be alone on the list. On Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:18:15PM -0600, Stephen Bosch wrote: On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Mallard wrote: So put a big RED sticker on the disk with "WARNING: You may need to go buy a book to learn how to use the overboard, overdesignedBLA BLA BLA HOT AIR SNIP Okay, Mallard - I have a suggestion for you. YOU make new Linux distribution for non-geeks. But don't expect any geeks to help you write it. Enjoy. -Stephen- -- -- C^2 No windows were crashed in the making of this email. Looking for fine software and/or web pages? http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley PGP signature
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set thedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
I like to use both (commandline and gui) who says you can't serve 2 masters :) When the gui skrooze up, I go in under the commandline and kick it in the butt with a kill command. On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, you wrote: It seems everyone has put their 2 cents in so why not me? 2 cents While my favorite editor is emacs, I have to say that anyone that considers themselves an expert owes it to themselves to learn vi(m). There are times when only it will do the job, partly because it might be the only editor available but because it is always included in every dist. or UNIX. Think of it as a basic skill that has to be learned. If you live your life entirely in a GUI then you never have to think about it, but if you want to use the power and the potential that comes with linux, then you have to get out to the console and learn how to use the professional editors that everyone else will be working with. This is the "Experts" list and anyone here might prefer to use pico on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean they will not have use of vi(m), and they should begin learning it to be ready for the day they move into the heady relm of expert in linux. Frankly I'm a bit surprised that such a debate even exists on this list. While I could see it occuring on the newbie list for those that intend to exist entirely in their X desktop, In the experts list I'd only expect to see such differences between the Vi and Emacs editor crowd. LOL /2 cents Ron -- Ron Marriage E-Mailmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage http://www.seidata.com/~marriage
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefaulteditor so I can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Mallard wrote: I want to get some work done, not go backwards. Are you still living in 1978 or do you use a GUI? If using a GUI is all there is, then perhaps I would like better to live in 1978, where the user interface is at least somewhat stable... I can still function 90% without a GUI, except for viewing images and video. Even that can be done in ascii art :) -- Regards, Ellick Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aug 16
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, you wrote: Oh, and another thing: This *is* an expert list. Experts usually know how to use a basic editor and how to change the default editor when they need to. -Stephen- Sorry for the dumb question, but how does one who does not know about it learn about it if they do not ask someone, supposeing that they don't understand the docs.? Not a flame, no offense intended.
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
I can still function 90% without a GUI, except for viewing images and video. Even that can be done in ascii art :) One word: aalib. I tell ya, text-mode DOOM is a very strange thing. :) -- Ben Reed a.k.a. Ranger Rick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://defiance.dyndns.org/ / http://radio.scenespot.org/ Now playing on Defiance Radio: The Woxen Pith by Aphex Twin
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefaulteditor soI can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Mallard wrote: Oh my, Mallard: Your're really getting emotional with this vi thing. I'd like to say your're suggestion would help some, but make others get stuck with pico that they don't even use. I myself used to use pico some, but found it too featureless for programming. I'll let the Mandrake developers decide on the fate of the default editor... So put a big RED sticker on the disk with "WARNING: You may need to go buy a book to learn how to use the overboard, overdesigned, lots of features editor on this disk called "vi". It uses strange key sequences since the programmer lived on another planet when he wrote it. We could have put a simple editor like pico on this disk, but why bother? We are geeks and know all this stuff so you should too. It's too bad if you don't like it, but we like all this old stuff we started with when we were in high school and can't let go of it." That sounds like a clearly defined plan. Just like pressing ESC to get into another mode so you can exit. This whole thread shows how the geeks won't let go of this stuff and thus Linux won't make it against winDOS or Mac. I can see Bill G. laughing all the way to the bank. People shouldn't need to know ANYTHING about computers to use one, or read all sorts of documentation to get something done on one. The next generation of OS that makes it will the one that is programmed to interface with a human without a learning curve. Geeks will hate it. -- Regards, Ellick Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aug 16
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Mallard pushed some tiny letters in this order: People shouldn't need to know ANYTHING about computers to use one, or read all sorts of documentation to get something done on one. The next generation of OS that makes it will the one that is programmed to interface with a human without a learning curve. Geeks will hate it. In the tradition of applying an automotive analogy to computers, would you give anyone a licence without them first reading the road rules and taking a few practical lessons? You do need to know SOMETHING about how to use a computer if you need to use them in your day to day work habits. I'd have to disagree with you about the next generation of OS's being cute and cuddly as well. I think Linux will improve to a point where it's at least as usable as Windows but no more. As the next generation of humans mature they will have grown up immersed in computer technology and almost instinctively know how to operate a computer. Computers that have hand holding interfaces are designed for those over a certain age who've never used a computer in their life. As the population ages this type of demographic will disappear; but at the moment unfortunately ancient computers aren't the only type of "legacy devices" that modern systems need to deal with.
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
Vic wrote: On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, you wrote: This *is* an expert list. Experts usually know how to use a basic editor and how to change the default editor when they need to. -Stephen- Sorry for the dumb question, but how does one who does not know about it learn about it if they do not ask someone, supposeing that they don't understand the docs.? Some of us are on the newbie list too, and we do answer questions =) -Stephen-
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
Benjamin Reed wrote: One word: aalib. I tell ya, text-mode DOOM is a very strange thing. :) My word... *this* I'm not familiar with... tell me more! -Stephen-
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
- Original Message - From: "Tony McGee" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 11:28 PM Subject: Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT? On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Mallard pushed some tiny letters in this order: People shouldn't need to know ANYTHING about computers to use one, or read all sorts of documentation to get something done on one. The next generation of OS that makes it will the one that is programmed to interface with a human without a learning curve. Geeks will hate it. In the tradition of applying an automotive analogy to computers, would you give anyone a licence without them first reading the road rules and taking a few practical lessons? You do need to know SOMETHING about how to use a computer if you need to use them in your day to day work habits. In the tradition of applying an automotive analogy...do you know how the tumblers in the cylinder of the switch on your steering column work? Do you know how that switch activates your starter motor? Do you know what cascaded sequence of events occur and how they occur in order just to start your car. Yes we need to know how to operate a car and basic driving rules, but we do not need to know the thermodynamic principles of internal combustion engines in order to operate a car. The same can be said for a computer. My father in law uses his computer to check his email, surf occasionally, and maybe print some purty pictures; he does not need to know or want to know a bunch of arcane cryptic commands if he just wants to type a letter. /rant I'd have to disagree with you about the next generation of OS's being cute and cuddly as well. I think Linux will improve to a point where it's at least as usable as Windows but no more. As the next generation of humans mature they will have grown up immersed in computer technology and almost instinctively know how to operate a computer. Computers that have hand holding interfaces are designed for those over a certain age who've never used a computer in their life. As the population ages this type of demographic will disappear; but at the moment unfortunately ancient computers aren't the only type of "legacy devices" that modern systems need to deal with. While the above may be true, there will always be people who have no need/interest to know how and why their computer does what it does. For them it is a tool, plain and simple, like a hammer of a spoon. It just needs to work. The beauty of the ongoing evolution of Linux is that it will eventually fulfill both the need for the geek and the grandfather looking at emailed pictures of his grandkids. This is the direct opposite of most other OS's which use operating obfuscation in the name of user friendliness (and it ain't jus MS, ever tried to really get into the guts of the Mac OS?) Linux has amazing potential, but it ain't there yet. Adam
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor soI can TRASH IT?
- Original Message - From: "Don" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor soI can TRASH IT? On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, you wrote: Gee that was helpful-NOT. But at least somewhat sympathetic Ok I'm going to type something helpful -- snip --- As for why the hell it was written the way it was I have no idea, but it would be helpful if the docs were written a little more in example mode for beginners as well as advanced users. -Stephen- Great Stephen! That is the biggest failing of many who write documents. Examples to show a point is better than a thousand words. The writer may know the exact commands and syntax, but examples will show the world in a clearer form. what about the vim tutorial (included w/package) ? Thanks, Don -- 73 de KK6WJ NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_ Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633 ___
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
.snip.. The beauty of the ongoing evolution of Linux is that it will eventually fulfill both the need for the geek and the grandfather looking at emailed pictures of his grandkids. This is the direct opposite of most other OS's which use operating obfuscation in the name of user friendliness (and it ain't jus MS, ever tried to really get into the guts of the Mac OS?) Linux has amazing potential, but it ain't there yet. Adam Well said, Adam. About 4 years ago I was contemplating a MAC. I was at the local sales/repair shop and asked to see it's DOS. All I saw was icons! "How do I get into it?" "You don't", was the reply. "But how do I write script or change stacks?" "You don't. That's what we're here for." Neither the machine, the limited software, or their hourly rate was cheap! Pj
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Adam Koch pushed some tiny letters in this order: In the tradition of applying an automotive analogy...do you know how the tumblers in the cylinder of the switch on your steering column work? Do you know how that switch activates your starter motor? Do you know what I'm not saying that you need to be a mechanical expert to drive a car, but you do need to know how to start it, how to control the foot pedals, what side of the road to drive on, etc. To me, being at a command line is like popping the hood of your car. If you want to mess with internals then you should learn a bit about the tools you need to use before you use them. While the above may be true, there will always be people who have no need/interest to know how and why their computer does what it does. For them it is a tool, plain and simple, like a hammer of a spoon. It just needs to work. The beauty of the ongoing evolution of Linux is that it will eventually fulfill both the need for the geek and the grandfather looking at emailed pictures of his grandkids. This is the direct opposite of most other OS's which use operating obfuscation in the name of user friendliness (and it ain't jus MS, ever tried to really get into the guts of the Mac OS?) Linux has amazing potential, but it ain't there yet. I fully agree that computers can be more intuitive for the newer users, Linux especially. The poster I replied to was saying that in the future interfaces will be so dumbed down that it will be hard to get any real work done. Maybe it's just me but I hate having to click through all the "Are you really sure?" messages that pop up every time I want to do something.
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
Couldn't the default editor be chosen depending on what kind of install you chose (e.g., automatic -- CoolEdit or whatever, customized/expert -- emacs/vim) in future releases of Linux-Mandrake? And remember, vi/vim can't be the editor from Hell; that's where all the M$ products come from :-) (that was a joke, not flame bait) ---Norvell Spearman --- ``Trouble is my business.'' ---Philip Marlowe
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the defaulteditor so I can TRASH IT?
On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Sheldon wrote: I do EVERYTHING in vi, including programming, etc. It's fast, reliable, works over telnet, etc. In respect for those who are stuck working on a slow as crap link to a box which you can see your typing 30 seconds after you hit the key, vi is very useful to get to the line number of choice, or go to the bottom of a large file. I had this happen multiple times, as the DSL link to the office machine gets saturated with ftp traffic, ssh is real slow. The only way I could cope with that is using vi's repeat functions. Imagine how slow an imprecise it is to hit the arrow key a whole bunch of times to move to the right end of a line, instead of hitting '$'. The same goes with any control over editing on a slow line. Not to mention how incredibly powerful vi is. The design of vi allows it to cope with the slowest, most backward terminals in the world, where everything is done wrong, or the machine has only 1 slow link to any network at all. You are most surely asking for flames if you are posting that kind of stuff here. Alot of us, incl. me are unix/linux sysadmins. When you are doing remote administration of 2000+ machines you don't want to log and and do export DISPLAY=xxx:0; your_favorite_editor and wait for X to load it over the network, then bother with the god damn mouse to edit one friggin line in a config fire. NOT to mention file-open-annoying dialog box crap. Talk about what is crap! geesh. -- Regards, Ellick Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aug 14
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the defaulteditor so I can TRASH IT?
Ditto for everything that Ellick said. I do EVERYTHING in vi, including programming, etc. It's fast, reliable, works over telnet, etc. You are most surely asking for flames if you are posting that kind of stuff here. Alot of us, incl. me are unix/linux sysadmins. When you are doing remote administration of 2000+ machines you don't want to log and and do export DISPLAY=xxx:0; your_favorite_editor and wait for X to load it over the network, then bother with the god damn mouse to edit one friggin line in a config fire. NOT to mention file-open-annoying dialog box crap. Talk about what is crap! geesh. FLAME If you can't stand the fire, get out of the kitchen /FLAME Ellick Chan wrote: On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Mallard wrote: Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is suposto be easy for users? It's the unix tradition :) Anyone else seen this joke of a program? Yes, and I use it almost daily With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to get it give you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will forget a day after you use them. Please get rid of it! It's a bit strange at first, but when you use it a lot, it is very logically designed. thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake support this? Trash it! Can't, vi should be a minimal part of every Linux distro, it is standard on any Unix system. I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It has zillions of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors that have a better human interface than terminals did, get a life geeks! (directed at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim") It's the only editor that behaves right on weird terminals such as the crappy Micro$oft telnet. Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico, where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a command line editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are better simple editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off, and on top of that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to "vim" (worse geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who! That may be ok for beginners, but a hard core sys admin wants vi. Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest. Anyone else feel like I do about this? This post is asking for a flame when put on expert groups, but I see the purpose of an easier editor for beginners. However, Mandrake has a large audience to satisfy, including hard core UNIX people. Vi has established itself as the standard editor, and it is not easily going to be displaced. -- Regards, Ellick Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aug 14 -- === "... all thoughts of selfish desire, ill-will, hatred and violence are the result of a lack of wisdom ... " - Buddha For an awsome fantasy role playing game checkout: http://members.xoom.com/Lycadican ===
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set thedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
Gavin Clark wrote: If it bugs you, don't use it - there are plenty of other character-driven text editors available. this is backwards, if you know how to use vi or are willing to learn then it will be a simple task for you to use it. but if you are new to linux/unix (read: just about everyone on earth) vi is just too damned hard. So don't use vi -- but don't trash it without having a damn good reason. "It's too hard for me" is not a good reason. apparent help, no feedback, nothing. The first time I used vi I had to pull the plug on the computer because I couldn't figure out how to make it quit. There are plenty of good books available on how to use (which also means quit out of) vi. Even the most basic Unix books (like "System V Release 4: an Introduction") have a section on basic vi usage. I find it a little ironic that people who willingly spend hundreds of dollars on books for MS products won't bother to pick up a basic Unix text. Let's not get *too* too comfortable, hmn? And as I said - you can use something else. As many other people on the list have pointed out, there are hundreds of different editors available. Usability is an entirely subjective property. not true. put a group of novices in a room and measure how much work they get done in an hour. with vi they'll still be scrolling through the man page. Take the time to make an effort and you can be using vi within about one to two hours class time. This is not rocket surgery, folks. And usability doesn't mean ridiculously easy - it means effective. -Stephen-
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
I use an small and free, but efficient, html editor/word processor from http://www.fookes.com called Super Note Tab. If it will work under Wine, you should be quite happy Pj At 07:50 PM 8/14/00 -0500, you wrote: On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Mallard wrote: Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is suposto be easy for users? It's the unix tradition :) Anyone else seen this joke of a program? Yes, and I use it almost daily With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to get it give you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will forget a day after you use them. Please get rid of it! It's a bit strange at first, but when you use it a lot, it is very logically designed. thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake support this? Trash it! Can't, vi should be a minimal part of every Linux distro, it is standard on any Unix system. I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It has zillions of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors that have a better human interface than terminals did, get a life geeks! (directed at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim") It's the only editor that behaves right on weird terminals such as the crappy Micro$oft telnet. Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico, where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a command line editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are better simple editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off, and on top of that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to "vim" (worse geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who! That may be ok for beginners, but a hard core sys admin wants vi. Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest. Anyone else feel like I do about this? This post is asking for a flame when put on expert groups, but I see the purpose of an easier editor for beginners. However, Mandrake has a large audience to satisfy, including hard core UNIX people. Vi has established itself as the standard editor, and it is not easily going to be displaced. -- Regards, Ellick Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aug 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nowonder.com
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
At 07:50 PM 8/14/00 -0500, you wrote: On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Mallard wrote: Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is suposto be easy for users? It's the unix tradition :) Anyone else seen this joke of a program? Yes, and I use it almost daily With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to get it give you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will forget a day after you use them. Please get rid of it! It's a bit strange at first, but when you use it a lot, it is very logically designed. thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake support this? Trash it! Can't, vi should be a minimal part of every Linux distro, it is standard on any Unix system. I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It has zillions of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors that have a better human interface than terminals did, get a life geeks! (directed at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim") It's the only editor that behaves right on weird terminals such as the crappy Micro$oft telnet. Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico, where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a command line editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are better simple editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off, and on top of that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to "vim" (worse geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who! That may be ok for beginners, but a hard core sys admin wants vi. Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest. Anyone else feel like I do about this? This post is asking for a flame when put on expert groups, but I see the purpose of an easier editor for beginners. However, Mandrake has a large audience to satisfy, including hard core UNIX people. Vi has established itself as the standard editor, and it is not easily going to be displaced. -- Regards, Ellick Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aug 14 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nowonder.com
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Mallard wrote: Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is suposto be easy for users? It's the unix tradition :) Anyone else seen this joke of a program? Yes, and I use it almost daily With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to get it give you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will forget a day after you use them. Please get rid of it! It's a bit strange at first, but when you use it a lot, it is very logically designed. thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake support this? Trash it! Can't, vi should be a minimal part of every Linux distro, it is standard on any Unix system. I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It has zillions of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors that have a better human interface than terminals did, get a life geeks! (directed at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim") It's the only editor that behaves right on weird terminals such as the crappy Micro$oft telnet. Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico, where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a command line editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are better simple editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off, and on top of that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to "vim" (worse geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who! That may be ok for beginners, but a hard core sys admin wants vi. Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest. Anyone else feel like I do about this? This post is asking for a flame when put on expert groups, but I see the purpose of an easier editor for beginners. However, Mandrake has a large audience to satisfy, including hard core UNIX people. Vi has established itself as the standard editor, and it is not easily going to be displaced. -- Regards, Ellick Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aug 14
Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set thedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
Thanks, it worked! I put that line in /etc/bashrc at the end, it seemed to make more sense to me since it is the main bash set up file for the system. It's easier for me to remember where it is. I tried typing it in at a shell prompt and it worked OK till I exited the console, so it needs to be in the bashrc file. I hope this saves some people some time. Hint: In vi press ESC then SHIFT and Q to get out with save. In vim, press ESC then :qw to get out with save. Just in case someone else gets stuck. Some people missed the points I was making and now I know why Linux is going to have problems as long as the people who write programs for it don't drop this geeky attitude. 1. Make it easy for non "sys admin" types to use. 2. "sys admin" types that live for this command line stuff can spend their life away re-configuring "easy" Linux distros to be as geeky as they want, or simply install a geeky distro (redhat 5.0 comes to mind). You could include a shell script with every distro called "run-this-for-a-total-geek-system.sh", make it remove X, KDE and all GUI stuff and install the latest version of vim (so they have all the features available, wouldn't want even one left out, it has to do everything, include the kitchen sink too). Make sure you DONT prompt them "this script program will remove lots of files, do you want to continue?", because geeks seem to love it when all their work is lost. Gives them a excuse to not have a life sitting at a old DEC VT100 terminal punching paper tape on lpt-01 (ASR teletype, 110 baud). I may not have made it clear that Mandrake changed the default editor from vi to vim. vi was easier to get out of, compared to :qw (whatever planet those programmers came from is real strange) and Mandrake just went too far with 7.1 using vim. Pico has been around for as long as I can remember (more than 20 years), probably as long as vi. I doubt it's very big. At least it shows the commands (like the important EXIT one) and does a very *strange* thing, it asks if you want to save your work if you made any changes. Immagine that! What a feature! Don't worry, vim will do that in another 20 years ;) I remember doing something in vim, trying to exit with save, and it said something about "text modified" so it wouldn't let me out (like a bad nightmare) and said "try q! instead", so I did, and lost my work. "q!" means "quit now and forget you spent all that time typing because it's gonna be lost without warning". Tell me that's not LAME! Mandrake, it's not cool to do this to your new "converts" / customers, please change the default editor, thanks. No "newbie" or even a "oldbie" like me is going to use a command line editor for much else than a emergency quick one line edit, been there, done that back in 1978 and don't want to go back. If someone does want to live in the past, let them change it. No one ever said where the actual setting was for the default editor, I am only changing it after the fact with bashrc. Where is it actually set up? Rial Juan wrote: If you want another editor (let's assume pico in our example), put this line somewhere in /etc/profile: export EDITOR="pico"
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set thedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
RYou could include a shell script with every distro called R"run-this-for-a-total-geek-system.sh", make it remove X, KDE and all GUI Rstuff and install the latest version of vim (so they have all the Rfeatures available, wouldn't want even one left out, it has to do You got that backwards. Should be a run-this-newbies-who-want-to-waste-space-with-X-things.sh. I don't claim to be an expert, but if you want fancy GUI stuff, you should have stayed with Windows. People use Linux because they want:1) Power 2) Flexibility 3) Speed (not necessarily in that order) Sure, X isn't all bad, but it prevents learning of the "real" os, Slows the system, and takes away a lot of the Flexibility. X, IMO, should be thought of as a "toy" or a "treat for Fridays" if you seriously want to use Linux to its full capacity. Someone made a comparison of Vi to the dos Edlin. Although I have only used Vi a few times, it didn't seem near as bad as Edlin. Once I _tried_ to use Edlin to create a simple text file, but soon realized that I would be better off just doing "copy confile.txt". RPico has been around for as long as I can remember (more than 20 years), Rprobably as long as vi. I doubt it's very big. At least it shows the Rcommands (like the important EXIT one) Pico can only be downloaded with Pine, correct? I don't have anything against Pico, in fact, Pico is actually my editor of choice. Someone also mentioned that Vi(m) is the only editor that acts right remotely, that's not true. I use Pico several times a week from M$ Telnet on Windoze boxes. It acts perfectly fine through a telnet connection, although the telnet prog its self is lacking some. RMandrake, it's not cool to do this to your new "converts" / customers, Rplease change the default editor, thanks. No "newbie" or even a "oldbie" The "new 'converts' / customers" should learn basic console navigation such as editors before ever even getting a distro. Rlike me is going to use a command line editor for much else than a Remergency quick one line edit, been there, done that back in 1978 and Rdon't want to go back. If someone does want to live in the past, let Rthem change it. I don't think that the default editor should be changed. It should be chosen at instillation. It might be viable to default Pico with basic installs, but the option given in custom/server installs on what to make default. Using Vi(m) doesn't mean that your living in the past, it simply means you know what your doing and like it that way. I say that if someone does want to live in a bloated "future", let _them_ change it and add all the X apps they want. Just thought I would contribute to the conv. and add my opinions, Jason Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set thedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
One person wrote: Some people missed the points I was making and now I know why Linux is going to have problems as long as the people who write programs for it don't drop this geeky attitude. And another wrote: But, if you don't get them to learn, then they will always need a tech-support person. So if it's for a home system (the environment wasn't clear, but I assume from the tone that no local tech-support was available) then the user needs to learn the basic tools. So make it easy. For mainstream this is really a big problem. (As are the still thin i810 support, lack of support for the now popular software modems, and - unless HP is really telling the truth in their announcement this week about supporting Linux - the now ever present host based printers.) The fact that I've gone out of my way to shield the ordinary users from vi (and a bunch of other stuff no sysadmin would have trouble using) presupposes that even after I left those jobs there would always be some sysadmin around to do the geeky stuff. That assumption isn't true in the typical home environment, which is partly why Microsoft shipped Windows 9x full of security holes. It had to be that way to be easy. And as long as most machines weren't connected to much of anything it didn't matter much. Now that they're everywhere and have open TCP/IP links to the whole world it's a real problem. Linux could be the same way. Ship it wide open like W95 and let the user beware; I have a problem with that. Ship it in a straight jacket and make the user figure it out - like OpenBSD; the average person will pass, thank you very much. But to gain widespread acceptance there has to be a balance of some sort, and that balance might be very tricky to find. If you want only geek systems then just stop now because the true geeks will configure it like they want anyway. If you really want a kindergarten safe system then wall off the modem and the NIC and make everyone use the same desktop. Neither of these choices makes any sense from a business perspective unless you're trying to go out of business. Now, in the Mandrake model there is a server install, a developer install, a desktop install, and some more. Perhaps the install needs another axis to select related to the geek level of the target user(s). I could certainly see the utility of a server install with a novice user option. You end up with even root having pico as a default editor. Ultra-geek systems make everybody use emacs from the command line. (Ducking the flying objects from the emacs lovers!!) Or perhaps, since there can be multiple skel directories, prompt for a geekness level at install time, make that level the default skel, and build a geekness level choice into a new replacement useradd frontend that selects the skel directory based on that level. Keep the choices limited to about 5. 1)safe for children, 2)newbie, 3)been around the block but not with UNIX, 4)used UNIX some in a former life, and 5)UNIX god. This ought to work whether it's a home install or a workplace with technical support available round the clock. Michael -- Michael R. Batchelor (Why do I bother with this next line? I've got to copy and paste it in anyway. Maybe I'm just a showoff.) 7:10pm up 223 days, 3:17, 1 user, load average: 0.06, 0.11, 0.09
RE: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set thedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
There has been so much trashing of vi/vim/gvim of pure ignorance, so I
have made a short list of some useful commands.
(Press the escape-key in order to get into command mode. )
(There is actually some correlation between keystrokes - commands. )
(q - quit, w - write, d - delete, i - insert, r - replace ... and so on)
Command Meaning
--
Exit Commands
--
ZZ Write (save) and quit file
:x Write (save) and quit file
:wq Write (save) and quit file
:w Write (save) file
:w! Write (save) file, overriding protection
:30,60w newfile Write from line 30 through line 60 as newfile
:30,60w file Write from line 30 through line 60 and append to file
:w %.new Write current buffer named file as file.new
:q Quit file
:q! Quit file, overriding protection (e.g. changes made)
--
Movement Command
--
h, j, k and lLeft, down, up and right
w, W, b, B Forward, backward by word
e, E End of word
), ( Beginning of next, previous sentence
}, { Beginning of next, previous paragraph
]], [[ Beginning of next, previous section
HTop line of screen
MMiddle line of screen
LLast line of screen
Ctrl-F Ctrl-BScroll forward, backward one screen
/pattern Search forward for pattern
?pattern Search backward for pattern
GMove to last line in file
nG Move to line number n
--
Editing Commands
--
i, a Insert text before, after cursor
I, A Insert text before beginning, after end of line
o, O Open new line for text below, above cursor
rReplace character
RType over (overwrite) characters
cw Change word
cc Change current line
xDelete character under cursor
XDelete character before cursor
dw Delete word
dd Delete line
yw Yank (copy) word
yy Yank current line
p, P Put deleted/yanked text after, before cursor
//Fredrik
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Mallard
Sent: den 15 augusti 2000 16:42
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Rial Juan
Subject: Re [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set
thedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
Thanks, it worked!
I put that line in /etc/bashrc at the end, it seemed to make more sense
to me since it is the main bash set up file for the system. It's easier
for me to remember where it is.
I tried typing it in at a shell prompt and it worked OK till I exited
the console, so it needs to be in the bashrc file. I hope this saves
some people some time. Hint: In vi press ESC then SHIFT and Q to get out
with save. In vim, press ESC then :qw to get out with save. Just in case
someone else gets stuck.
Some people missed the points I was making and now I know why Linux is
going to have problems as long as the people who write programs for it
don't drop this geeky attitude.
1. Make it easy for non "sys admin" types to use.
2. "sys admin" types that live for this command line stuff can spend
their life away re-configuring "easy" Linux distros to be as geeky as
they want, or simply install a geeky distro (redhat 5.0 comes to mind).
You could include a shell script with every distro called
"run-this-for-a-total-geek-system.sh", make it remove X, KDE and all GUI
stuff and install the latest version of vim (so they have all the
features available, wouldn't want even one left out, it has to do
everything, include the kitchen sink too). Make sure you DONT prompt
them "this script program will remove lots of files, do you want to
continue?", because geeks seem to love it when all their work is lost.
Gives them a excuse to not have a life sitting at a old DEC VT100
terminal punching paper tape on lpt-01 (ASR teletype, 110 baud).
I may not have made it clear that Mandrake changed the default editor
from vi to vim. vi was easier to get out of, compared to :qw (whatever
planet those programmers came from is real strange) and Mandrake just
went too far with 7.1 using vim.
Pico has been around for as long as I can remember (more than 20 years),
probably as long as vi. I doubt it's very big. At least it shows the
commands (like the important EXIT one)
and does a very *strange* thing, it asks if you want to save your work
if you made any changes
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set thedefault editor so I can TRASH IT?
It seems everyone has put their 2 cents in so why not me? 2 cents While my favorite editor is emacs, I have to say that anyone that considers themselves an expert owes it to themselves to learn vi(m). There are times when only it will do the job, partly because it might be the only editor available but because it is always included in every dist. or UNIX. Think of it as a basic skill that has to be learned. If you live your life entirely in a GUI then you never have to think about it, but if you want to use the power and the potential that comes with linux, then you have to get out to the console and learn how to use the professional editors that everyone else will be working with. This is the "Experts" list and anyone here might prefer to use pico on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean they will not have use of vi(m), and they should begin learning it to be ready for the day they move into the heady relm of expert in linux. Frankly I'm a bit surprised that such a debate even exists on this list. While I could see it occuring on the newbie list for those that intend to exist entirely in their X desktop, In the experts list I'd only expect to see such differences between the Vi and Emacs editor crowd. LOL /2 cents Ron -- Ron Marriage E-Mailmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage http://www.seidata.com/~marriage
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I setthedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
on 8/14/00 7:43 PM, Stephen F. Bosch wrote: Gavin Clark wrote: If it bugs you, don't use it - there are plenty of other character-driven text editors available. this is backwards, if you know how to use vi or are willing to learn then it will be a simple task for you to use it. but if you are new to linux/unix (read: just about everyone on earth) vi is just too damned hard. So don't use vi my point is that you HAVE to use it. a novice by definition does not know how to change to something else. If I wanted to do everything the hard way I would be using debian. -- but don't trash it without having a damn good reason. "It's too hard for me" is not a good reason. neither is "that's the way we've always done it". I'm not saying get rid of it at all, just make something else the default. it would be an easy thing to have vi come up as a choice for experts during the install. everyone keeps saying how this has been around for 20 years, well that's plenty of time to add a line at the top with : 'type this for help', 'do this to save', 'do this to quit' currently vi is one of those 'you have to know the secret handshake' programs. apparent help, no feedback, nothing. The first time I used vi I had to pull the plug on the computer because I couldn't figure out how to make it quit. There are plenty of good books available on how to use (which also means quit out of) vi. Even the most basic Unix books (like "System V Release 4: an Introduction") have a section on basic vi usage. now there's an idea. linux should have the command #tutorial nnn, like man, but it pops up a clearly written dummy's guide with lots of examples. I find it a little ironic that people who willingly spend hundreds of dollars on books for MS products won't bother to pick up a basic Unix text. Let's not get *too* too comfortable, hmn? Actually I'm coming at this from the Mac side, where if you have to read the manual the program sucks. ;-) Usability is an entirely subjective property. not true. put a group of novices in a room and measure how much work they get done in an hour. with vi they'll still be scrolling through the man page. Take the time to make an effort and you can be using vi within about one to two hours class time. This is not rocket surgery, folks. Two hours class time to change two words in a text file? You just made my point. The slogan "Linux, any well trained computing student can use it" is not going to win the revolution. ;-) And usability doesn't mean ridiculously easy - it means effective. It means both. I could dial my phone by pinching wires together, it would be effective and more flexible than buttons but guess which is more usable. For me it comes down to this, power tools are not for children. Gavin
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set thedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Gavin Clark pushed some tiny letters in this order: -- but don't trash it without having a damn good reason. "It's too hard for me" is not a good reason. neither is "that's the way we've always done it". I'm not saying get rid of it at all, just make something else the default. it would be an easy thing to have vi come up as a choice for experts during the install. An installation choice has been the best idea to come out of this thread. This is Mandrake after all, IMHO the distribution most suited to the widest range of experience from newbies right up to experts. I should probably let it be known that I too hated vi when it was used (read: pushed avidly) as the editor in a C programming course I was doing. It's quite embarrasing to sit in a PC laboratory listening to vi beep over and over because I didn't understand how to change from command to an editing mode. But over the years I've come to realise that despite it's unusual interface it is one of the most powerful and compact editors out there. apparent help, no feedback, nothing. The first time I used vi I had to pull the plug on the computer because I couldn't figure out how to make it quit. There are plenty of good books available on how to use (which also means quit out of) vi. Even the most basic Unix books (like "System V Release 4: an Introduction") have a section on basic vi usage. now there's an idea. linux should have the command #tutorial nnn, like man, but it pops up a clearly written dummy's guide with lots of examples. I don't think there's a tutorial command but there is a large amount of documentation both installed and on the web. From memory, Mandrake 7.1 installs an extremely helpful Newbies guide in /usr/doc/mandrake, a vim guide in /usr/doc/vimguide-0.7, all the man/info pages, and if you absolutely need more information about vi there's http://www.vim.org/, or a more general http://www.linuxnewbie.org/ The problem isn't with the lack of documentation out there, in my experience it's that nobody bothers to read it before running to the nearest mailing list/newsgroup/guru/whatever. I find it a little ironic that people who willingly spend hundreds of dollars on books for MS products won't bother to pick up a basic Unix text. Let's not get *too* too comfortable, hmn? Actually I'm coming at this from the Mac side, where if you have to read the manual the program sucks. ;-) The reason vi does have a comprehensive manual is because it's so powerful. As has been stated numerous times you are still free to use pico or something else that doesn't require a manual for use. Usability is an entirely subjective property. not true. put a group of novices in a room and measure how much work they get done in an hour. with vi they'll still be scrolling through the man page. Take the time to make an effort and you can be using vi within about one to two hours class time. This is not rocket surgery, folks. Two hours class time to change two words in a text file? You just made my point. The slogan "Linux, any well trained computing student can use it" is not going to win the revolution. ;-) Two hours? My goodness, a quick read of the guide and noting a few frequently used commands might take 10 minutes at the most. With regard to a group of novices, I've seen people too scared to touch a mouse because they aren't sure what it will do let alone be brave enough to figure out that you need to press Alt-F to access dos edit's file menu. It's not that vi is incredibly hard to use (though memorising every single command it has would be the mark of a true unix god) it's just that it doesn't conform to "Microsoft's One True User Interface Vision"(tm) so newbies find it hard to pick it up. That's my $0.022 (inc Oz GST) Tony
[expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is
suposto be easy for users?
Anyone else seen this joke of a program?
With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to get it give
you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long
whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will forget a day
after you use them. Please get rid of it!
Try ":qw" to get out and save what you just did WTF is that? Did a human
design this? That is if you figure out how to get into "insert" mode and
out of it again. GET RID OF THIS! TRASH IT! Ban it from the Net!
Couldn't use "X" or "E" for exit or maybe cntl-X or Z, no - had to be
big geeks and do it some STUPID way. What the hell were these guys
thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake support this?
Trash it!
Yea, I am pissed. All I wanted to do is set up my cron file ("crontab
-e") and that brings up the "default" editor. Searching all over to find
where the "default" editor is set up, couldn't find it. Another waste of
time.
I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It has zillions
of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors that have a
better human interface than terminals did, get a life geeks! (directed
at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim")
Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico,
where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a command line
editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are better simple
editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off, and on top of
that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to "vim" (worse
geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who!
Figure if someone is a big enough geek to want vim, let them spend their
life away trying to figure it out (and how to change the default editor
to do it).
Thanks for the soapbox, I had my say (please forward this to whoever
makes these program installation choices, if he's not a big geek that
is).
Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest. Anyone else
feel like I do about this?
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
Mallard:
I agree with you 200%!
I have wasted all kinds of time trying to work with "UNIX"
tools that are outdated and clumsy, except for the geeks who
thought they were cute. They aren't.
I have been writing useful 'C' programs for 20+ years (obviously not in
UNIX/LINUX) and have never seen such lack of concern for "software
sability". - Yes, that's a real topic for commercial (bite my tongue)
software developers.
I am trying to find out whether my users (PhD MD professionals) would
like Linux better than Windoz. I can definitely say, NOT TODAY! I too
have wasted time and money, really wanting this to be a successful
venture. I am no M$ fan. However, I've never had to wander arounf in
the dark so much using M$ products.
I still (silly me) believe that Linux 'could be' a better system - but,
not without a lot of effort directed toward usability.
Bill
Mallard wrote:
Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is
suposto be easy for users?
Anyone else seen this joke of a program?
With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to get it give
you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long
whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will forget a day
after you use them. Please get rid of it!
Try ":qw" to get out and save what you just did WTF is that? Did a human
design this? That is if you figure out how to get into "insert" mode and
out of it again. GET RID OF THIS! TRASH IT! Ban it from the Net!
Couldn't use "X" or "E" for exit or maybe cntl-X or Z, no - had to be
big geeks and do it some STUPID way. What the hell were these guys
thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake support this?
Trash it!
Yea, I am pissed. All I wanted to do is set up my cron file ("crontab
-e") and that brings up the "default" editor. Searching all over to find
where the "default" editor is set up, couldn't find it. Another waste of
time.
I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It has zillions
of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors that have a
better human interface than terminals did, get a life geeks! (directed
at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim")
Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico,
where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a command line
editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are better simple
editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off, and on top of
that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to "vim" (worse
geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who!
Figure if someone is a big enough geek to want vim, let them spend their
life away trying to figure it out (and how to change the default editor
to do it).
Thanks for the soapbox, I had my say (please forward this to whoever
makes these program installation choices, if he's not a big geek that
is).
Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest. Anyone else
feel like I do about this?
RE: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
For someone who has been programming in C for 20 years and never used or
heard of vi? hm I know vi has been around at least that long and longer,
since the inceptions of Unix. I my self have been programming in Perl for
about 4 years now and can not imagine doing that in another editor such as
Pico. For the simple fact that I myself save much time, effort, and my
Carpal Tunnel getting worse, because of the key binding, the color coding,
and not reaching for the mouse all the time.
Your right Linux is NOT for the mainstream newbie yet. But the community is
working hard to make that happen, give it some time. I have learned allot in
the past 6 years working with Linux and spent most of that time reading
FAQ's, and HOWTO's. It dose take allot of time and patience to sit and learn
something new, as with anything.
What I'm trying to say is give it a fair chance. I gave edit in DOS
a fair chance :)
---
Eric Peters Mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
System Administrator Network Operations
Inherent Technologies Inc.
office (503)224-6751 ext 224
---
-Original Message-
From: Bill Hudspeth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 11:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the
default editor so I can TRASH IT?
Mallard:
I agree with you 200%!
I have wasted all kinds of time trying to work with "UNIX"
tools that are outdated and clumsy, except for the geeks who
thought they were cute. They aren't.
I have been writing useful 'C' programs for 20+ years
(obviously not in
UNIX/LINUX) and have never seen such lack of concern for "software
sability". - Yes, that's a real topic for commercial (bite my tongue)
software developers.
I am trying to find out whether my users (PhD MD
professionals) would
like Linux better than Windoz. I can definitely say, NOT TODAY! I too
have wasted time and money, really wanting this to be a successful
venture. I am no M$ fan. However, I've never had to wander arounf in
the dark so much using M$ products.
I still (silly me) believe that Linux 'could be' a better
system - but,
not without a lot of effort directed toward usability.
Bill
Mallard wrote:
Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is
suposto be easy for users?
Anyone else seen this joke of a program?
With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to
get it give
you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long
whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will
forget a day
after you use them. Please get rid of it!
Try ":qw" to get out and save what you just did WTF is
that? Did a human
design this? That is if you figure out how to get into
"insert" mode and
out of it again. GET RID OF THIS! TRASH IT! Ban it from the Net!
Couldn't use "X" or "E" for exit or maybe cntl-X or Z, no -
had to be
big geeks and do it some STUPID way. What the hell were these guys
thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake
support this?
Trash it!
Yea, I am pissed. All I wanted to do is set up my cron file
("crontab
-e") and that brings up the "default" editor. Searching all
over to find
where the "default" editor is set up, couldn't find it.
Another waste of
time.
I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It
has zillions
of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors
that have a
better human interface than terminals did, get a life
geeks! (directed
at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim")
Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico,
where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a
command line
editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are
better simple
editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off,
and on top of
that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to
"vim" (worse
geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who!
Figure if someone is a big enough geek to want vim, let
them spend their
life away trying to figure it out (and how to change the
default editor
to do it).
Thanks for the soapbox, I had my say (please forward this to whoever
makes these program installation choices, if he's not a big
geek that
is).
Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest.
Anyone else
feel like I do about this?
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor soI can TRASH IT?
IMO usability is not a static concept. To me it's a great usability and speed
feature that my hands never have to leave the alphanumeric part of the
keyboard.
The outstanding contribution of vi is that it needs virtually no per-machine
configuration. It's plug and play on any keyboard and display. That's why it
provides a great lowest common denominator editor for Unix systems.
I have used many powerful editors, including SlickEdit, CodeWright, Emacs,
etc.. I always gravitate to vi for smaller editing tasks because of its speed
and simplicity. Once learned it is easily remembered, having only a few
keystroke patterns that combine to access a multitude of features. Other
editors with distinct keystrokes assigned to every function fade from memory
much more quickly.
VIM is a great implementation of vi, with its syntax coloring, etc. However I
will admit that the help system is a bit much to tolerate.
Just an opinion from an crusty old Unix geek.
Steve
Bill Hudspeth wrote:
Mallard:
I agree with you 200%!
I have wasted all kinds of time trying to work with "UNIX"
tools that are outdated and clumsy, except for the geeks who
thought they were cute. They aren't.
I have been writing useful 'C' programs for 20+ years (obviously not in
UNIX/LINUX) and have never seen such lack of concern for "software
sability". - Yes, that's a real topic for commercial (bite my tongue)
software developers.
I am trying to find out whether my users (PhD MD professionals) would
like Linux better than Windoz. I can definitely say, NOT TODAY! I too
have wasted time and money, really wanting this to be a successful
venture. I am no M$ fan. However, I've never had to wander arounf in
the dark so much using M$ products.
I still (silly me) believe that Linux 'could be' a better system - but,
not without a lot of effort directed toward usability.
Bill
Mallard wrote:
Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is
suposto be easy for users?
Anyone else seen this joke of a program?
With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to get it give
you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long
whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will forget a day
after you use them. Please get rid of it!
Try ":qw" to get out and save what you just did WTF is that? Did a human
design this? That is if you figure out how to get into "insert" mode and
out of it again. GET RID OF THIS! TRASH IT! Ban it from the Net!
Couldn't use "X" or "E" for exit or maybe cntl-X or Z, no - had to be
big geeks and do it some STUPID way. What the hell were these guys
thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake support this?
Trash it!
Yea, I am pissed. All I wanted to do is set up my cron file ("crontab
-e") and that brings up the "default" editor. Searching all over to find
where the "default" editor is set up, couldn't find it. Another waste of
time.
I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It has zillions
of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors that have a
better human interface than terminals did, get a life geeks! (directed
at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim")
Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico,
where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a command line
editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are better simple
editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off, and on top of
that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to "vim" (worse
geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who!
Figure if someone is a big enough geek to want vim, let them spend their
life away trying to figure it out (and how to change the default editor
to do it).
Thanks for the soapbox, I had my say (please forward this to whoever
makes these program installation choices, if he's not a big geek that
is).
Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest. Anyone else
feel like I do about this?
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor soI can TRASH IT?
Bill Hudspeth wrote: I agree with you 200%! I have wasted all kinds of time trying to work with "UNIX" tools that are outdated and clumsy, except for the geeks who thought they were cute. They aren't. Vi will always be around, and Linux/Unix admins will always have to know how to use it. Why? Because A) it comes with every flavour of Unix available; B) it is *very* compact, so it will run even on an almost completely crippled system. If it bugs you, don't use it - there are plenty of other character-driven text editors available. I have been writing useful 'C' programs for 20+ years (obviously not in UNIX/LINUX) Obviously not. and have never seen such lack of concern for "software sability". - Yes, that's a real topic for commercial (bite my tongue) software developers. Vi is a commercial product that has been around a lot longer than most Microsoft products. I am trying to find out whether my users (PhD MD professionals) would like Linux better than Windoz. I can definitely say, NOT TODAY! I too have wasted time and money, really wanting this to be a successful venture. I am no M$ fan. However, I've never had to wander arounf in the dark so much using M$ products. That's because MS products take all responsibility for learning away from the user, leaving them high and dry when something doesn't work. I still (silly me) believe that Linux 'could be' a better system - but, not without a lot of effort directed toward usability. Usability is an entirely subjective property. I find MS products highly unusable. I'm sorry you are having trouble, but getting frustrated doesn't help. -Stephen-
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
- Original Message -
From: "Mallard" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 1:33 PM
Subject: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default
editor so I can TRASH IT?
Yea, I am pissed. All I wanted to do is set up my cron file ("crontab
-e") and that brings up the "default" editor. Searching all over to find
where the "default" editor is set up, couldn't find it. Another waste of
time.
I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It has zillions
of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors that have a
better human interface than terminals did, get a life geeks! (directed
at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim")
Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico,
where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a command line
The editor in mc is easy to use. I think pico isn't so bad.
Don't get pissed -- just find one you like since there are plenty available.
Hoyt
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
Calm down; vi is part of the linux heritage, and will therefor always be around.
Well, enough peoble have been ranting about that.
If you want another editor (let's assume pico in our example), put this line
somewhere in /etc/profile:
export EDITOR="pico"
Hope this helps you calm your nerves. ;-)
On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:33:42 Mallard wrote:
Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is
suposto be easy for users?
Anyone else seen this joke of a program?
With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to get it give
you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long
whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will forget a day
after you use them. Please get rid of it!
Try ":qw" to get out and save what you just did WTF is that? Did a human
design this? That is if you figure out how to get into "insert" mode and
out of it again. GET RID OF THIS! TRASH IT! Ban it from the Net!
Couldn't use "X" or "E" for exit or maybe cntl-X or Z, no - had to be
big geeks and do it some STUPID way. What the hell were these guys
thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake support this?
Trash it!
Yea, I am pissed. All I wanted to do is set up my cron file ("crontab
-e") and that brings up the "default" editor. Searching all over to find
where the "default" editor is set up, couldn't find it. Another waste of
time.
I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It has zillions
of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors that have a
better human interface than terminals did, get a life geeks! (directed
at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim")
Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico,
where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a command line
editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are better simple
editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off, and on top of
that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to "vim" (worse
geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who!
Figure if someone is a big enough geek to want vim, let them spend their
life away trying to figure it out (and how to change the default editor
to do it).
Thanks for the soapbox, I had my say (please forward this to whoever
makes these program installation choices, if he's not a big geek that
is).
Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest. Anyone else
feel like I do about this?
--
Rial Juanhttp://nighty.ulyssis.org
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Belgiumtel:(++32) 89/856533
ulyssis system admininstrator http://www.ulyssis.org
The little critters in nature; they don't know they're ugly.
That's very funny... A fly marying a bumble-bee...
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set thedefault editor soI can TRASH IT?
Bill Hudspeth wrote: I agree with you 200%! I have wasted all kinds of time trying to work with "UNIX" tools that are outdated and clumsy, except for the geeks who thought they were cute. They aren't. Vi will always be around, and Linux/Unix admins will always have to know how to use it. Why? Because A) it comes with every flavour of Unix available; B) it is *very* compact, so it will run even on an almost completely crippled system. If it bugs you, don't use it - there are plenty of other character-driven text editors available. this is backwards, if you know how to use vi or are willing to learn then it will be a simple task for you to use it. but if you are new to linux/unix (read: just about everyone on earth) vi is just too damned hard. there's no apparent help, no feedback, nothing. The first time I used vi I had to pull the plug on the computer because I couldn't figure out how to make it quit. Just because it's been around a long time doesn't mean we have to be saddled with it forever. Sure, a compact console based text editor is needed but you can have that and still have it be easy to use. at least put the instructions at the top. I still (silly me) believe that Linux 'could be' a better system - but, not without a lot of effort directed toward usability. Usability is an entirely subjective property. not true. put a group of novices in a room and measure how much work they get done in an hour. with vi they'll still be scrolling through the man page. Gavin
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the defaulteditor so I can TRASH IT?
On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Mallard wrote: Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is suposto be easy for users? It's the unix tradition :) Anyone else seen this joke of a program? Yes, and I use it almost daily With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to get it give you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will forget a day after you use them. Please get rid of it! It's a bit strange at first, but when you use it a lot, it is very logically designed. thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake support this? Trash it! Can't, vi should be a minimal part of every Linux distro, it is standard on any Unix system. I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It has zillions of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors that have a better human interface than terminals did, get a life geeks! (directed at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim") It's the only editor that behaves right on weird terminals such as the crappy Micro$oft telnet. Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico, where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a command line editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are better simple editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off, and on top of that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to "vim" (worse geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who! That may be ok for beginners, but a hard core sys admin wants vi. Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest. Anyone else feel like I do about this? This post is asking for a flame when put on expert groups, but I see the purpose of an easier editor for beginners. However, Mandrake has a large audience to satisfy, including hard core UNIX people. Vi has established itself as the standard editor, and it is not easily going to be displaced. -- Regards, Ellick Chan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aug 14
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the defa ult editor soI can TRASH IT?
Submitted 14-Aug-00 by Zaleski, Matthew (M.E.): I disagree. I don't like vi but I learned enough to do some basic editing. Vi is about the only full screen editor that's guaranteed to be on any Unix/Linux box. At least knowing the basics of using it is valuable when your system takes a dump. Well said. Ignoring arguments about vile vi or evil emacs or pokey pico, I invite any of you to grab a rescue disk at random (that's right, just mosey on over to freshmeat and grab a mini distro that fits on a floppy) and look at your choices for editors. vi. The reason is simple. It is on every *nix system (as the above poster mentioned) and in the stipped down "vi" mode, it's fairly light. Because it has been so pervasive for more than 20 years, it is (rightly) assumed that any admin with more than three brain cells has at least tried it in case he needed it. As a further test, for those of you who have (properly) partitioned your drive to have a small / with separate /usr and /home partitions, try going to runlevel 1 (maintenance mode). unmounting /usr and see what editors you have available (you guessed it: vi). -- Anton GrahamGPG ID: 0x18F78541 [EMAIL PROTECTED] RSA key available upon request "I got everybody to pay up front...then I blew up their planet." "Now why didn't I think of that?" -- Post Bros. Comics
RE: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
Here's hoping this doesn't turn into a flame war
A few years ago, I would have agreed with you. However, I have learned a
few things about Unix and especially Linux. To coin a Perl phrase, "There's
more than one way to do it." Whereas Microsoft forces you down a single
path for better or worse, Linux lets you dive into the guts of the system
yourself. Now you many not want to but other developers have and will
continue to do so. What's my point? There are a bajillion editors both GUI
and console-based for Linux. Don't like vi, use joe (my favorite) or emacs,
and so on. KDE and Gnome are a long ways from the original X base in terms
of friendliness and power.
I see Linux gaining user-friendly features at a exponentially increasing
rate. And don't confuse user-friendliness with dumbed-down interfaces and
restricted feature sets (the M$ way). Mandrake is a huge leap over earlier
Linux distributions in terms of hand-holding the newbie. It's not perfect
but when did Microsoft give Windows away for free and continue to develop
it. I can legally download the latest version of Mandrake any time I want
without paying (although I did buy a copy to support the company).
Matthew Zaleski
P.S. This is my last comment on this topic since I feel it is drifting a bit
wide of the intent of this list. Intelligent discussions on features for
Mandrake to include in upcoming releases is one thing, writing generic flame
bait comments bashing Linux in general doesn't help improve the product.
-Original Message-
From: Bill Hudspeth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 2:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the
default editor so I can TRASH IT?
Mallard:
I agree with you 200%!
I have wasted all kinds of time trying to work with "UNIX"
tools that are outdated and clumsy, except for the geeks who
thought they were cute. They aren't.
I have been writing useful 'C' programs for 20+ years
(obviously not in
UNIX/LINUX) and have never seen such lack of concern for "software
sability". - Yes, that's a real topic for commercial (bite my tongue)
software developers.
I am trying to find out whether my users (PhD MD
professionals) would
like Linux better than Windoz. I can definitely say, NOT TODAY! I too
have wasted time and money, really wanting this to be a successful
venture. I am no M$ fan. However, I've never had to wander arounf in
the dark so much using M$ products.
I still (silly me) believe that Linux 'could be' a better
system - but,
not without a lot of effort directed toward usability.
Bill
Mallard wrote:
Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is
suposto be easy for users?
Anyone else seen this joke of a program?
With Vim all you have to do is spend a half hour trying to
get it give
you help, then scroll all the way to the bottom of a super long
whoopy-do list of usless keyboard commands that you will
forget a day
after you use them. Please get rid of it!
Try ":qw" to get out and save what you just did WTF is
that? Did a human
design this? That is if you figure out how to get into
"insert" mode and
out of it again. GET RID OF THIS! TRASH IT! Ban it from the Net!
Couldn't use "X" or "E" for exit or maybe cntl-X or Z, no -
had to be
big geeks and do it some STUPID way. What the hell were these guys
thinking? Do they live on this planet? Why does Mandrake
support this?
Trash it!
Yea, I am pissed. All I wanted to do is set up my cron file
("crontab
-e") and that brings up the "default" editor. Searching all
over to find
where the "default" editor is set up, couldn't find it.
Another waste of
time.
I don't know who thinks this is some great thing, WOW! It
has zillions
of features! It's not 1982 anymore, we have word processors
that have a
better human interface than terminals did, get a life
geeks! (directed
at the guys who wrote and keep updating "vi" and "vim")
Why not make the default editor a nice simple one, like maybe pico,
where the commands are shown. I can't see anyone using a
command line
editor for much else than a few simple changes, there are
better simple
editors in KDE and such. Damn that really pissed me off,
and on top of
that you guys changed from "vi" (same stupid geeky crap) to
"vim" (worse
geeky crap) in 7.1 did someone request this? I want to know who!
Figure if someone is a big enough geek to want vim, let
them spend their
life away trying to figure it out (and how to change the
default editor
to do it).
Thanks for the soapbox, I had my say (please forward this to whoever
makes these program installation choices, if he's not a big
geek that
is).
Sorry for the bandwith waste, had to get this off my chest.
Anyone else
feel like I do about this?
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the default editor so I can TRASH IT?
I think the whole discussion is important in that it points out at least one of the problems in documentation of a very complex system. I, for one, have been using vi since the 80's, and it's practically always my editor of choice. Why? Because I know it. Frankly, I've never recommended it for users who only want do simple things because it's too hard to explain the difference between "insert" mode and "beep" mode. In life as a system admin I've actually compiled /usr/local/bin/joe into the binaries as a default editor for the mail agents. (Alright, I take a lot of heat around here because I still use elm when I'm on a console. And I've got my elmrc just exactly like I want it!) But life with vi is the legacy of UNIX just the same way that life with MS-DOS backwards compatibility is the legacy of Windows. MS has been trying to kill DOS since Windows95, but it's an alligator with it's teeth in their butt they can't shake off. Nobody past Richard Stallman has tried to kill vi for "power users" but most of the people I know who aren't old timers use pico to manipulate configuration files by hand. So, UNIX (Linux) is both old and new. Removing vi or not leaving it in place would throw too many things out of whack for an experienced UNIX user, but there really ought to be some kind of warning sign for the newbie. Except that we really need hundreds of warning signs for the newbies. Perhaps someone ought to start looking into making the skel configured differently based on what type of install the user is doing. Here's hoping this doesn't turn into a flame war A few years ago, I would have agreed with you. However, I have learned a [...] continue to do so. What's my point? There are a bajillion editors both GUI and console-based for Linux. Don't like vi, use joe (my favorite) or emacs, and so on. KDE and Gnome are a long ways from the original X base in terms of friendliness and power. -Original Message- From: Bill Hudspeth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] I agree with you 200%! [...] Mallard wrote: Why did Mandrake pick the most geekyist editor for a setup that is suposto be easy for users? -- Michael R. Batchelor 9:45pm up 222 days, 5:53, 2 users, load average: 0.23, 0.19, 0.15
Re: [expert] Vi/Vim - The editor from HELL! How do I set the defa ult editor soI can TRASH IT?
Submitted 14-Aug-00 by Zaleski, Matthew (M.E.): I disagree. I don't like vi but I learned enough to do some basic editing. Vi is about the only full screen editor that's guaranteed to be on any Unix/Linux box. At least knowing the basics of using it is valuable when your system takes a dump. Well said. Ignoring arguments about vile vi or evil emacs or pokey pico, I invite any of you to grab a rescue disk at random (that's right, just mosey on over to freshmeat and grab a mini distro that fits on a floppy) and look at your choices for editors. vi. The reason is simple. It is on every *nix system (as the above poster mentioned) and in the stipped down "vi" mode, it's fairly light. Because it has been so pervasive for more than 20 years, it is (rightly) assumed that any admin with more than three brain cells has at least tried it in case he needed it. As a further test, for those of you who have (properly) partitioned your drive to have a small / with separate /usr and /home partitions, try going to runlevel 1 (maintenance mode). unmounting /usr and see what editors you have available (you guessed it: vi). -- Anton GrahamGPG ID: 0x18F78541 [EMAIL PROTECTED] RSA key available upon request "I got everybody to pay up front...then I blew up their planet." "Now why didn't I think of that?" -- Post Bros. Comics
