Re: [TruthTalk] SOME WOMEN JUST WANT TO LOOK LIKE TEMPLE PROSTITUTES
DO I CARE TO DISCUSS SHORT HAIR ON WOMEN? NO. THE MAIN REASON THAT I AM LEAVING THIS LIST IS THAT I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE PERSONAL OPINIONS OF THESE WOMEN. BLAH, BLAHI FEEL SORRY FOR THEIR HUSBANDS..BLAH, BLAH, BLAH ALL DAY. I WANT THE WORD OF GOD. THEY CAN LOOK LIKE TEMPLE WHORES IF THEY CHOOSE. ---ELSMANSTEIN, A RAGING PROPHET jt: This is rich Elsman since you are the one who began the controversy in the first place. Actually I feel sorry for your wife if she has to put something on her head to appease you and to keep the peace. It wasn't the temple whores in Corinth who shaved their heads, it was ordinary every day loose women. Rather than a prophet in the Biblical sense you are a doubleminded man. You want God's Word but ONLY men are fit to speak it in your eyes - they you rant and rage about what you began having to do with women. You truly will not be satisfied until the women are gone and you can resume the crude scatalogical dialogue that you appear to enjoy. It's a shame because you do have a good sense of humor. The unclean tongue does not become you at all - sweet and bitter water are not supposed to come from the same well. judyt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Hognose snakes
Judge righteous judgment -- John 7:24. My youngest is right on target as usual. Of course, Judy decreeing otherwise indicated that was the case. Looking forward to Well done good and faithful servant. jt: You and your son judge by outward appearance and by some distorted religious view you and your mentor the late John Quincy Adams ascribe to; you would like everyone to be in submission to people like you rather than hear the voice of the Master for themselves. Jesus is able to make those of us who are not up to your standard yet to stand - and before our own Master we stand or fall - not before you and your precocious son. judyt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] SOME WOMEN JUST WANT TO LOOK LIKE TEMPLE PROSTITUTES
I hear you Perry and I'm glad that there are men on TT who find this kind of talk unacceptable. I was addressing the kind of mail Elsman was sending to TT from his list. It seemed like some kind of a good old boy thing having to do with male street preachers and I got the idea (could be wrong) that this is the kind of thing he likes. judyt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is rich Elsman ... snip ... You truly will not be satisfied until the women are gone and you can resume the crude scatalogical dialogue that you appear to enjoy. Judy, Elsman was not reprimanded for his scatological talk because women were present...it was because it is disgusting and not welcome on the forum. If all of the women on TT left, it would still be disgusting, and still be unwelcome. I do not know why you think that if the women weren't here Jim could resume the crude scatalogical dialogue. That does not speak very highly of the men on this forum. Perry the Moderator -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] THE BIBLE IS A KNOWN-KNOWN--A HOLY GOD CANNOT ACCEPT SINNERS
jt: What about the ignorant sitting on a church pew. God said through the prophet MY people perish for lack of knowledge so ignorance is not good no matter where one finds it. FYI DaveH is a self professed happy Mormon, one who is not interested in changing, oil in crankcase, or come hell or highwater... BTW the gift of suspicision is not one of the nine. judyt HUBERT ALWAYS SAID THAT ANY PERSON WHO PLEADS THE CASE OF THE IGNORANT SAVAGE IN THE JUNGLE IS A SINNER, SEEKING TO ESCAPE A VERY HOLY GOD. THUS, I AM SUSPICIOUS OF YOU FOR ASKING! THAT IS A COMMON POINT MADE BY HEATHEN THAT WE PREACH BEFORE. DAVID, YOU NOT ONLY HAVE THE WOMAN PROBLEM HEREON, BUT THESE MEN SEEM A QUART LOW IN THE CRANKCASE, IN MOST CASES. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Hognose snakes
Your youngest son Chris? How sad that youthful optimism has been replaced by such a judgmental spirit but then he is probably the product of your training. The saddest part of the whole thing is that he will have to give account for all of his judgmental pronouncements before the Lord, and even while in this present life, he will reap what he is verbally sowing. Not good! judygt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Hognose snakes
Your youngest son Chris? How sad that youthful optimism has been replaced by such a judgmental spirit but then he is probably the product of your training. The saddest part of the whole thing is that he will have to give account for all of his judgmental pronouncements before the Lord, and even while in this present life, he will reap what he is verbally sowing. Not good! judygt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Covering the Head
I find your response here interesting David. I have found that the reason women are bound in church settings is mainly because of the attitude/fear of the men involved. I've only been to one Church where I saw true freedom. Not rebellion - genuine freedom in ministry blessing others through obedience to the Spirit of God which was possible because the leadership (male)was willing to trust the Lord to work through more than one person and would correct in love if/when ppl missed it which happens at times. No head coverings necessary and God's Word was preached with signs following. It was wonderful - if only that were the norm. judyt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Covering the Head
Something else I have noticed about women and head coverings is that older women have this tendency to cut their hair very short. If I survey the women's heads in my church, the younger women tend to have long hair, which serves as a covering for her, while the older women tend to have hair that is very short. Why is that? Have you ever thought about that? I kind of miss the traditional Pentecostal churches where it was the older women who always had the longest hair. jt: David you do realize that this head-covering thing was a social custom in Corinth and that God has not ordained long-hair don't you? Apparently short or short hair signified a loose woman in that culture. Not so today. Short hair is more practical and looks better many times. I knew a godly woman years ago who was into the long hair thing for religious reasons and she said she was convicted by the amount of time she was spending trying to tame her hair. Our judgments should be righteous which means they have nothing to do with hair and outward appearance because God sees the heart. judyt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Covering the Head
DavidM wirtes: Oh, Izzy. You are going to get me into deep trouble with Elsman now. :-) He is going to accuse me for the rest of my life about how I do not have my wife in subjection to me and the Scriptures! jt: I have a hard time believing that a smart man like Elsman is not just pulling our chain. Does anyone know if HIS wife is under subjection to him and the Bible? Another thing to consider is how many different interpretations there are of the Bible; so to which does a conscientous woman who wants to please the Lord subject herself? To their own conscience, or the conscience of someone else (who may be full of religious spirits and/or dead orthodoxy? Grace and Peace, Judyt in the rainy Lonestar State -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] ad hominem?
Dogs have been considered in the same manner as by my African brother going back into antiquity. It is actually a strong precept from ScriptureA mother in Scripture had a daughter possessed by a demon. The mother sought YahShua to cast out the demon. Wouldn't you think that The Saviour would leap to the occasion to cast out a foul, evil spirit? He didn't. The Saviour told this loving mother seeking for Spiritual relief for her daughter, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast to dogs. jt: The reason he didn't has nothing to do with canine beasts at all Chris. It has to do with Covenant. The woman was a Greek (syro-phonecian) and a dog in the sense used by our Savior here describes someone who is outside the Covenant. Healing is the children's bread - that is, the children of the covenant - and not very young believers. Got to be careful not to add meaning that was never intended here and at the same time denigrate man's best friend :). PS: Your attitude toward dogs and cats is the Arkansas cultural one. My father-in-law only kept working dogs who would keep the yard clear of varmints and didn't like cats but if they were around they would have to work. However, yesterday there was a touching scene at the airport. A young woman with what looked like a baby carrier hanging on the front of her was meeting an elderly lady; she opened up the carrier and a little white poodle got so excited to see the older women that it about turned itself inside out. That is love. People don't know how to unconditionally love like that and this is why they are so attached to their pets. In our area they take domestic animals to Nursing Homes as they believe it lowers the blood pressure in old folks to stroke them. So look at what you are missing out on in Arkansas. judyt judyt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] ad hominem?
I'm neither in nor from Arkansas. Not that it matters ... you're talking to me about backwoods health care folk tales and you want to denigrate Arkansas! ROTFLMHO!!! jt: I'm not denigrating anything, just saying that your way is the cultural norm in that State. Could be wrong about where you live but noted an AR address at your website. CBarr: High blood pressure is caused by excess cadmium. Stroking neither animals nor anything else will deal with the cadmium excess. jt: HBP has roots in anxiety and fear. Your emphasis on supplements for every known ailment is also over the top Chris. Illness/disease has spiritual roots in sin - either sin of the person involved or that of their ancestors. It is stated clearly in Deuteronomy 28,29. Blessings for obedience and the curse (sickness) for disobedience. You can try and by-pass the curse with alternative medicine if you want. I would rather deal with the sin issue. It's the more excellent way. CBarr: You go right ahead being kissy-kissy with dogs, but as for me I'll just miss out on that -- I know where that mouth and tongue has been so I'll just leave that to the filthy wretches that just don't know any better (see Romans 1). jt: You have a wild imagination Chris. I don't kiss on dogs and have never advocated such. I like them though (and they like me). A good dog is a real asset. Fun, company, and you don't have to walk alone. CBarr: Also, unconditional love is not Scriptural (again see Romans 1 re without natural affection, vile affections). jt: There you go again - and you claim to think like the Father? Not so! Romans 1 is written to people who hold the truth in unrighteousness. IOW people who know the truth but will not do it. God empowers you Chris to look in your own backyard, take care of your own mess and that of those you are responsible for at home. PS Jesus died to set us free so that we could LOVE. judyt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] ad hominem?
Chris wrote: Truth, Adonay, yet bitches eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Was that an ad hominem from The Saviour? No. Was that an insult from The Saviour. Yes, and one of a very degrading nature. Apparently I missed this one but you've done it again. I'd throw out whatever translation you got this out of. The woman is just acknowledging the fact that she is outside the Covenant God has with Israel. Why do you want to make it something other than what it is? Jesus was not into insulting or degrading. He spoke the truth in love as he expects us to do. Fact is she was not included in the Covenant but he healed her daughter anyway because of the respect and faith with which she approached him. judyt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] ad hominem?
Note: Another point I forgot to make - this women got some crumbs and we who are God's Covenant people through Christ are not even getting that these days. Anytime you've got to depend on food additives etc. you're not walking in Covenant blessings. In fact you're no better off than the world out there. judyt Chris wrote: Truth, Adonay, yet bitches eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Was that an ad hominem from The Saviour? No. Was that an insult from The Saviour. Yes, and one of a very degrading nature. Apparently I missed this one but you've done it again. I'd throw out whatever translation you got this out of. The woman is just acknowledging the fact that she is outside the Covenant God has with Israel. Why do you want to make it something other than what it is? Jesus was not into insulting or degrading. He spoke the truth in love as he expects us to do. Fact is she was not included in the Covenant but he healed her daughter anyway because of the respect and faith with which she approached him. judyt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Interesting questions, Izzy. BUT, YOU HAVE THE WRONG A NSWER!
But Elsman - what about the head covering and the other two scriptures addressing cultural problems that you have been trying to burden us with. Surely you are not giving Izzy a verbal beating now for being disobedient to those admonitions are you? Cindy and Jed Smock are a campus entertainment team following the example left by HH. judyt - surrounded right now by SUV's and Texas Longhorns -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] GIRLS, DO YOU ACCEPT THE SCRIPTURES AS AUTHORITY OVER YOUR LIVES ,OR NOT??
I accept the scriptures when they are rightly divided and taken in balance and in context; I don't cower before every religious zealot coming down the pike. Nor do I see any justification by word or by example for getting in the faces of the ignorant and soul sick just to shout at them that they are two legged devils who are headed for hell. Jesus only railed against the religious people and Paul became all thing to all men so that he might win some. Isn't this what Izzy has been talking about? Where are you at Elsman? -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy USED to write reasonable, rational things, whatever happened, Judy? I hate to say this, but lately it seems to me you are trying to please . . uh, Kevin? Kevin, do you consider Judy to be in your hind pocket?Or, . . Judy, what do you think? I will accept your commentary as being the final word on this. Judy: Not my COMMENTARY Blaine - God's Word and NO I don't really expect you to accept that either. I am noticing what some of the others who had been here longer were saying when I first joined TT and that is that you Mormon boys as you call yourselves do not have a heart that is open to Truth and I have the same question they asked which is: Why are you here? You are just not interested and appear to be quite content with your man-made structure and locked into it's false doctrine along with all the trappings. This makes you unavailable to God and deaf to anything we would have to say because as the old saying goes A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. I don't want to be unkind or rude but man pleasing is not my forte, and I am presently asking the one I serve if I am wasting his time. Life is short and Truth is precious. Judy From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine wrote: The Protestant doctrine as I have always understood it is that men both inherit the potential for sin, and are born with that sin upon them, therefore having need of Baptism for the remission of that sin. Perry wrote: This is where you have it wrong...protestants believe only in #2. DavidM: Perry, there are Protestants who believe in infant baptism. For example, this position is held by Methodists, Lutherans, Episcopalians and Presbyterians. The main original reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, strongly believed in infant baptism. Judy: Both Martin Luther and John Calvin were fresh out of the RCC at the time of the Protestant Reformation and some of this ritual stuck. DavidM: It seems to me that Judy does not believe in #2 version of Original Sin. She said that Jesus would be guilty if he had any inheritance from Adam. Judy: Big IF there DavidM. I don't believe Jesus was born with a spiritual inheritance in the first Adam. DavidM: She has expressed agreement with number 2, but her comments do not seem to follow that. I cannot find any logical consistency in her comments to really know at this time exactly what she believes about original sin and guilt. Judy: I fail to see why logic is so important here. I would think consistency with scriptural truth would be of paramount importance in this discussion. DavidM: Judy also has introduced a term, spiritual inheritance from Adam. This needs further explanation as I only perceive in physical inheritance from Adam and nothing spiritual at all. Judy: What can I say? I was under the impression we were dealing with spiritual realities here. After all deception is a spiritual condition is it not. Eve was deceived by the wrong spirit and Adam took no stand but rather chose to go along with her. God is Spirit, satan is spirit. We are discussing the spirit of truth vs the spirit of error are we not? Sure the first Adam was created a living soul but the second Adam is a life-giving Spirit because the need is a spiritual one. We have received the spirit which is of God that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (1 Corinthians 2:12-14) Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Adams fall UPWARD
DAVEH: As I pointed out previously, God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden for a reason. Judy: Yes He was testing AE to see if they would obey Him choose what is good. DAVEH: I don't know why you believe that IF you believe Jesus was chosen before the foundation of the world to be our Redeemer. (I assume you do believe Jesus was foreordained well before AE to be our Savior?) Judy: Yes I do believe that. I also believe that God chose Jacob (the younger) over his brother Esau before they were born because He knew that Jacob would treasure the blessing and Esau would despise it (in his Omniscience). God knew but that didn't change anything other than His speaking it through a prophet. DAVEH: And IMHO, he not only knew Adam would partake of the FF, but he intended him to do so. Judy: What kind of convoluted thinking is this? You are making God responsible for their sin when His Word tells us that God is the Father of light in whom there is no degree of shadow or turning. He can not be tempted with evil, neither does He tempt any man. DAVEH: Not at all. He didn't tempt man with evil. Adam's partaking of the FF was not evil. As I said, it was an important part of God's plan of salvation for us. Without AE eating the FF.there would be no salvation. Judy: Adam broke God's law/command and it was evil, God says so and your saying God set him up to sin is also an evil report. You are listening to the wrong voice DAVEH just lilke Eve did in the garden - Satan said Ye SHALL NOT surely die. God had said they would and they did. DAVEH: The only thing I've quoted to you, Judy.is Bible. Judy: What you have quoted to me DaveH is your Mormon para phrase of what you believe the Bible to be saying. I know you think Joseph Smith is the one who opened the closed book (described by the prophet Isaiah) but this is also a lie because Joseph Smith's writings contradict the rest of God's Word and the book hs been and still is still closed to those who do not come to the sacrifice God's way. It is He who either opens or closes the understanding. DAVEH: If you disagree with my conclusion, that is OK. I just am very interested in knowing how you (Protestants in general) can accept Jesus' foreordination to be our Savior IF God really intended Adam not to partake of the FF. Judy: To understand that DaveH you would have to accept the fact that God is not like us. His thoughts and ways are so much higher. He is everything we are not and He knows the beginning from the end before it happens. If Adam had not fallen there would be no need of a Savior but Jesus would still be Lord and He would still be holding the worlds together by the Word of His power. DAVEH: It seems to me that (original) sin was attributed to Adam's transgression in post Biblical traditions of the apostate church. OS is something LDS theology considers erroneous doctrine. We believe men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. That is why Christ's free gift of the (physical) resurrection is given to all men, whether good or bad. Judy: Both ideas are false and unscriptural. Jesus would not have had to shed his blood to become the once and for all sacrifice for sin that was non-existent. Without Adam's fall this would not have been necessary. Yes Jesus died for ALL men however, ALL men will not be resurrected to eternal life in Him; DAVEH: Now you are modifying what I wrote so that it will appear to contradict what you believe. I agreenot all me will be resurrected to eternal life. The bad guys will also be physically resurrected, but will not share his eternal life and love. My point was that ALL will be physically resurrected, both good and bad. Judy: Some will be in heaven with God, others will not. At the last day there will be sheep and there will be goats. Only those who have come to the sacrifice and have deal with their sin issues God's way will be resurrected into eternal life. DAVEH: OK Judy..let me ask again Do you believe ALL men will be physically resurrected.either to eternal life or to eternal damnation? Judy: They will all appear before the judgment seat of Christ and also at the Great White Throne judgment to be accepted or rejected according to what they have done. DAVEH: Do you believe those who are not born again will be punished after this life for the sins their parents may have committed? I ask that to try to understand how Adam's sins transfer to you. Or.is it just Adam's transgression that transfers, and not his other sins? To me it seems a bit strange that God would hold somebody responsible for another's sins, but I'm looking at it through biased eyes. Judy: Maybe it would be easier to understand DAVEH if you look at the two trees in the garden as trees of wisdom. The tree of life being God's Word and the other tree the word of the adversary. People who
[TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] How could AE have sinned, IF they did not know right from wrong? Judy: They knew it was right to obey the voice of the Lord who was their Creator DAVEH: Unless you have Biblical evidence, that would be an assumption on your part, Judy. Judy: It's no assumption and it doesn't take a 'rocket scientist' DaveH. Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God COMMANDED THE MAN saying of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eatbut - and they certainly knew God meant what He said and they had done wrong after the fact because guilt and shame which is part of the curse was all over them. DAVEH: Thank you..you made my point. It was AFTER partaking the FF that they had the knowledge of good and evil. Judy: They knew it was wrong/evil to rebel against the COMMAND of God. The curse does not come on people for doing good. When you told your child not to do something for their own safety and well being and they did it anyway - did you spank/punish them or did you rationalize that this could not have been wrong because they did not comprehend your whole mindset. Did you find some way to make it good? DAVEH: It does no good to physically punish a child who does not know the difference between right and wrong. First he must be taught what is right and wrong AND he then must be capable of knowing the difference. (Would you physically punish a mentally retarded person for not understanding something?) Judy: What about obeying the voice of his/her Father? I'm not talking about infants here. DAVEH: You seem to be thinking I'm trying to find a way to rationalize that what the did (transgression) was good. Judy: Well that's the subject line isn't it Adam's Fall Upward? DAVEH: From my perspective, I'm not rationalizing at all. I have attained my understanding from extra-Biblical revelation from God. Judy: God does not change, He is not a man that He should lie and He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Any revelation that is from Him must harmonize with what has already been written. DAVEH: What I am trying to do for you is having you consider the logic of what the Bible tells you without resorting to latter-day revelation. I really don't know much about how Protestantism reacts to thinking outside the box, so to speak. Judy: Hey Dave Aristotle the grandfather of logic was not a believer, he was a pagan Greek so what makes you think logic is the way to Truth? It may be wiser to recognize who you are vs who God is, take responsibility, repent for your own sin and allow God to give you understanding. DAVEH: Do theologians ever wonder why God prepared a Savior before even creating the Garden of Eden? To me, it seems a relatively interesting question that has very important consequences of doctrine. Judy: God in His omniscience knows what will happen before it takes place DaveH so he is more than two steps ahead of all of us and the ONLY way you will ever be able to understand His Word and His Way is to lay aside your own speculations, then come and sit humbly at his feet. DAVEH: To me the LDS perspective makes logical sense, yet the Protestant belief as I understand it leaves a lot of unanswered questions. and, apparently leads to erroneous doctrine such as original sin and infant baptism. Judy: Well then I guess it's your choice to spend eternity with Aristotle, Plato and the rest of the pagan Greeks. Original sin is not a false doctrine and infant baptism is a faith issue on the part of parents. I would much rather be guilty of this than what goes on in the Mormon Temple. DAVEH: Is there any place in the Bible where AE's eating of the forbidden fruit is referred to as a sin, or..do the Bible authors simply refer to it as a transgression? Judy: The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit and sin is the transgression of the law (see 1 John 3:4) AE had just one law/command in the garden which was - DO NOT EAT and they broke it which made them transgressors of God's law and this is sin. DAVEH: Like I said, Judy..the Bible never refers to Adam's Sin it is always Adam's Transgression. Now I would wonder if God's command to Adam equates with law. When a parent tells his child not to do something, is it really law? Judy: I have shown you the definition of sin from scripture, apparently you will not believe it. Parents are not God but a wilfully rebellious child is a scourge upon the home and on society in general. This is why we have civil law; otherwise anarchy would reign. DAVEH: Often (most) times that is the case. But not always, IMHO. Look at James 4:17...Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. This begs the question, does it not did Adam Eve knoweth to do good prior to partaking of the fruit. Judy: Yes they did know to do good since obeying God is what they were COMMANDED and knew to do and this is always GOOD. DAVEH: I'd say you are
[TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD (Blaine)
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: I agree. It does seem a bit strange. It always has. But apparently not to most of the traditional Protestant churches of the Reformation. They had infants baptized, or Christianed, as they called it, because they thought the sin of Adam was still upon them. Judy: I don't know which 'traditional' Protestant churches you refer to here Blaine and they all have different reasons for doing what they do. The Methodists sprinkle babies and so do the Presbyterians and probably the Episcopal Church. I know that PCA people view it as the parents making covenant for the child... but whatever the reason there is one common basic understanding and this is the fact that every person born into this world by natural generation comes with a spiritual inheritance from the first Adam and this is what the scriptures teach. It is sin singular rather than sins plural which come later. Blaine: So, Judy, do I take it from your comments below that infants are born with a residual sin, which must then be cleansed by baptism, sprinkling, or making a covenant with the child? Judy: Everyone born into this world is born IN SIN and I know this has been pointed out in the past because I've seen the Psalm where David speaks of it posted, probably by Kevin. So far as I know the thinking on infant baptism is that the covenant is with the parents by faith rather than that baptism cleanses. For baptism to do anything other than get the person wet there must be an awareness and cooperation with God and this would be impossible for an infant. Blaine: The Mormon article of Faith you quoted refers to this practice. The BoM speaks even more extensively against infant baptism. Judy: The scriptures do not promote infant baptism Blaine: I agree. It seems to be more of what I have been calling the Traditional Protestant Belief System. Judy: I don't know what that might be because protestants do not have traditional beliefs that they hold on the same level as scripture, that would be the rcc. But Mary and Joseph did bring their infant Jesus to the temple to present him before the Lord and it was understood that they would raise him in the faith which should be the understanding of those who present their babies before the Lord for sprinkling today. Blaine: I agree this is a good thing. LDS infants are presented before the congregation for a blessing, in much the same spirit as Jesus being presented at the temple. But baptism does not occur until the child becomes of age to know the difference between right and wrong, or later. Baptism is seen by the LDS as a covenant to take upon oneself the name of Jesus Christ, and to become His disciple. This must be a matter of choice, but with an infant, where is the choice? Judy: I assume the BofM has some way other than the blood of Jesus to get rid of the sin babies are born in. Blaine: That is exactly the point, we do not believe this doctrine. Children are born innocent. Judy: Children are not born innocent, David said in Psalm 51:5 In sin did my mother conceive me - Same is true for the rest of humanity babies are conceived in sin and born in sin. Blaine: Jesus said, Suffer little children to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of God. This refers to their innocent condition. Judy: Not so, rather it refers to their willingness and ability to trust since they had not yet had time to be locked into stiff necked doubt and unbelief. Blaine: How can they be ready for the Kingdom of God, except they be innocent? Judy: He didn't say they were ready for the KOG - he said of such which means of this sort. We need to understand scripture in the light of other scripture rather than through the grid of Joseph Smith's writings. Jesus further explained in Matthew 18:3 where he says except ye be converted and become as little children (which involves faith and trust); and Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 14:20 be not children in understanding. So to take just one verse and make these assumptions will lead one into deception. Blaine: If Adam's sin is still there, then they are not Christianized, and therefore must be condemned to hell. Judy: Noone must be condemned to hell. Jesus died so that all might be saved but they must come to Him on His terms. Scripture tells us that those who do not believe are condemned already and this speaks of everyone no matter what their age. Blaine: Maybe these little children are the ones that Protestant Priest was referring to when he told DaveH's nephew some individuals go to hell in order to glorify God, thus showing his perfect justice? Judy: Protestants usually do not have priests. It was a preacher, most likely Baptist and on TT the consensus is out over what the man actually said. The street preachers think DaveH's nephew mis- understood him. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
[TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD
From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] I really see two different ideas being discussed here: 1) the idea of a child being born with inherent, original sin, resulting from the fall and inherited from Adam, and 2) a child being born with a sin nature resulting from the fall and inherited from Adam. I believe the first leads to the idea of infant baptism to wash away the inherent sin, as in the RCC, and the second leads to the idea of an age of accountability, before which one has a sin nature but is not held accountable for sins committed prior to some point in one's life. David seems to be arguing from the viewpoint of the first, while Judy seems to be arguing from the viewpoint of the second. Do I have this right? Judy: You have my part right Perry but DaveH so far as I can tell believes the same as Blaine which is that children are born innocent and that baptizing babies is apostasy and error and is part of protestant tradition Apparently this is part of the doctrine of Mormonism. Judy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] How could AE have sinned, IF they did not know right from wrong? Judy: They knew it was right to obey the voice of the Lord who was their Creator DAVEH: Unless you have Biblical evidence, that would be an assumption on your part, Judy. Judy: It's no assumption and it doesn't take a 'rocket scientist' DaveH. Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God COMMANDED THE MAN saying of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eatbut - and they certainly knew God meant what He said and they had done wrong after the fact because guilt and shame which is part of the curse was all over them. DAVEH: Thank you..you made my point. It was AFTER partaking the FF that they had the knowledge of good and evil. Judy: They knew it was wrong/evil to rebel against the COMMAND of God. The curse does not come on people for doing good. When you told your child not to do something for their own safety and well being and they did it anyway - did you spank/punish them or did you rationalize that this could not have been wrong because they did not comprehend your whole mindset. Did you find some way to make it good? DAVEH: It does no good to physically punish a child who does not know the difference between right and wrong. First he must be taught what is right and wrong AND he then must be capable of knowing the difference. (Would you physically punish a mentally retarded person for not understanding something?) Judy: What about obeying the voice of his/her Father? I'm not talking about infants here. DAVEH: You seem to be thinking I'm trying to find a way to rationalize that what the did (transgression) was good. Judy: Well that's the subject line isn't it Adam's Fall Upward? DAVEH: From my perspective, I'm not rationalizing at all. I have attained my understanding from extra-Biblical revelation from God. Judy: God does not change, He is not a man that He should lie and He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Any revelation that is from Him must harmonize with what has already been written. DAVEH: What I am trying to do for you is having you consider the logic of what the Bible tells you without resorting to latter-day revelation. I really don't know much about how Protestantism reacts to thinking outside the box, so to speak. Judy: Hey Dave Aristotle the grandfather of logic was not a believer, he was a pagan Greek so what makes you think logic is the way to Truth? It may be wiser to recognize who you are vs who God is, take responsibility, repent for your own sin and allow God to give you understanding. DAVEH: Do theologians ever wonder why God prepared a Savior before even creating the Garden of Eden? To me, it seems a relatively interesting question that has very important consequences of doctrine. Judy: God in His omniscience knows what will happen before it takes place DaveH so he is more than two steps ahead of all of us and the ONLY way you will ever be able to understand His Word and His Way is to lay aside your own speculations, then come and sit humbly at his feet. DAVEH: To me the LDS perspective makes logical sense, yet the Protestant belief as I understand it leaves a lot of unanswered questions. and, apparently leads to erroneous doctrine such as original sin and infant baptism. Judy: Well then I guess it's your choice to spend eternity with Aristotle, Plato and the rest of the pagan Greeks. Original sin is not a false doctrine and infant baptism is a faith issue on the part of parents. I would much rather be guilty of this than what goes on in the Mormon Temple. DAVEH: Is there any place in the Bible where AE's eating of the forbidden fruit is referred to as a sin, or..do the Bible authors simply refer to it as a transgression? Judy: The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit and sin is the transgression of the law (see 1 John 3:4) AE had just one law/command in the garden which was - DO NOT EAT and they broke it which
[TruthTalk] democracy vs judicial rule
DAVEH: But I think Ruben wants me to go out on the street with him. In all due respect to Ruben, I hope he enjoys his work (he seems to), and do not begrudge him his dues. We will all be justly rewarded, Ruben and co. included. Each to his own, I would say. Let God judge, not me. But just for the record, last year, I gave away over four K to the poor, helping them get on their feet. I fast at least once a month in order to save up part of that money (see Luke 18:12). I pay more than that into the coffers of the LDS Church for a tithe. I served for two years as a missionary to the poor of Salt Lake City, and was greatly impressed with the vast resources the LDS Church has built up for the sake of serving other's needs since it was organized in 1830. Judy: I don't know about Ruben but just reading the above DaveH reminds me of the parable of the 'Publican and the Pharisee' in Luke 18:10. There is nothing you or any institution can do to justify yourselves before God. DAVEH: It owns farms and ranches (it owns the largest cattle ranch in the US, in Florida) throughout the world, it has food and clothing warehouses and employment centers all over the world, for the poor and the needy. It has manufacturing centers, canning centers, food outlets comparable to modern supermarkets--you name it, the Church has it. All it asks is that if you are physically and mentally capable, you donate some time and labor for what you receive. Judy: What kind of time and labor? Time to listen to doctrine and labor to further the Mormon gospel? DAVEH: A lot of people just go get the stuff and never bother to work it off, of course--seems to be par for the course for people who are either fringe LDS or non members. They seem to have that take-take-take mentality inculcated into them by the world. Judy: You mean there are no dishonest church members who are LDS? DAVEH: They need to learn that by giving, we receive. Judy: I don't know if God honors giving to get. DAVEH: Well, let Ruben and his boys, who are young and full of vim and vigor, go out and picket the Massachusetts Courts. More power to them. The only thing I despise is when they waste their time picketting the LDS confines--we don't need it.. Judy: Apparently they think you do - you wouldn't want them to discriminate would you? DAVEH: although it does seem to focus a lot of attention on us which we otherwise might not get. I am sure more than one person has joined the LDS Church after being introduced to it by the Steet Preachers Inc. LOL. Judy: Is your underwear all that appealing DAVEH? irebukeu wrote: GREAT POINT KEVIN. IF THESE MORMONS BELIEVED IN THE BIBLE, I WOULD GIVE THEM A VERSE LIKE THIS; Therefore to him that KNOWETH to DO GOOD, and DOETH IT NOT, to him IT IS SIN James 4:17 WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT US TO DO SOMETHING THAT THEY WOULD NOT DO?? For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; BUT THEY THEMSELVES WILL NOT MOVE THEM WITH ONE OF THEIR FINGERS Matthew 23:4 == Seems to me the gay pride parade went right by the temple last year. Where were the LDS? MIA ! Street preachers were there. SP's preach at diverse events. (No pun intended) Sports, religious, festivals, concerts, parades, political, did I miss any? Talk is cheap Blaine. What are you going to do about gay marriage? DAVEH: Hey Blaine..These guys are right.best that you not perform any! VBG -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine wrote: The Protestant doctrine as I have always understood it is that men both inherit the potential for sin, and are born with that sin upon them, therefore having need of Baptism for the remission of that sin. Perry wrote: This is where you have it wrong...protestants believe only in #2. DavidM: Perry, there are Protestants who believe in infant baptism. For example, this position is held by Methodists, Lutherans, Episcopalians and Presbyterians. The main original reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, strongly believed in infant baptism. Judy: Both Martin Luther and John Calvin were fresh out of the RCC at the time of the Protestant Reformation and some of this ritual stuck. DavidM: It seems to me that Judy does not believe in #2 version of Original Sin. She said that Jesus would be guilty if he had any inheritance from Adam. Judy: Big IF there DavidM. I don't believe Jesus was born with a spiritual inheritance in the first Adam. DavidM: She has expressed agreement with number 2, but her comments do not seem to follow that. I cannot find any logical consistency in her comments to really know at this time exactly what she believes about original sin and guilt. Judy: I fail to see why logic is so important here. I would think consistency with scriptural truth would be of paramount importance in this discussion. DavidM: Judy also has introduced a term, spiritual inheritance from Adam. This needs further explanation as I only perceive in physical inheritance from Adam and nothing spiritual at all. Judy: What can I say? I was under the impression we were dealing with spiritual realities here. After all deception is a spiritual condition is it not. Eve was deceived by the wrong spirit and Adam took no stand but rather chose to go along with her. God is Spirit, satan is spirit. We are discussing the spirit of truth vs the spirit of error are we not? Sure the first Adam was created a living soul but the second Adam is a life-giving Spirit because the need is a spiritual one. We have received the spirit which is of God that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (1 Corinthians 2:12-14) Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] DAVEH wrote: How could AE have sinned, IF they did not know right from wrong? Judy: They knew it was right to obey the voice of the Lord who was their Creator and they knew they had done wrong after the fact because guilt and shame were all over them. When you told your child not to do something for their own safety and well being and they did it anyway - did you spank/punish them or did you rationalize that this could not have been wrong because they did not comprehend your whole mindset and find some way to make it good? DaveH wrote: But.is there any place in the Bible where AE's eating of the forbidden fruit is referred to as a sin, or..do the Bible authors simply refer to it as a transgression? Judy: The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit and sin is the transgression of the law (see 1 John 3:4) AE had just one law in the garden which was - don't eat of that fruit and they broke it which made them transgressors. DAVEH: Often (most) times that is the case. But not always, IMHO. Look at James 4:17...Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. This begs the question, does it not did Adam Eve knoweth to do good prior to partaking of the fruit Judy: Yes they did. Obeying God is what they KNEW to do and this is always GOOD. Disobeying God is BAD because transgressing His law is sin. This is HIS definition and the only one that will count for eternity. DAVEH: As I pointed out previously, God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden for a reason. Judy: Yes He was testing AE to see if they would choose what is good. DAVEH: And IMHO, he not only knew Adam would partake of the FF, but he intended him to do so. I assume you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior and Redeemer before the foundation of the world, DavidM? (1Pt 1:10). If that is so, then God had to place the FF in the presence of AE in order that they could partake of it, as it was part of God's plan. Judy: What kind of convoluted thinking is this? God can not be tempted with evil, neither does He tempt any man. The above contradicts what has been written by the Spirit of God. You are listening to the wrong voice DAVEH. DAVEH: It seems to me that (original) sin was attributed to Adam's transgression in post Biblical traditions of the apostate church. OS is something LDS theology considers erroneous doctrine. We believe men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. That is why Christ's free gift of the (physical) resurrection is given to all men, whether good or bad. Judy: Both ideas are false and unscriptural. Jesus would not have had to shed his blood and become a sacrifice for sin that was non-existent. Without Adam's fall this would not have been necessary. Yes Jesus died for ALL men however, ALL men will not be resurrected to eternal life in Him; at the last day there will be sheep and there will be goats. Only those who have come to the sacrifice and have deal with their sin issues God's way will be resurrected into eternal life. DAVEH: Do you believe those who are not born again will be punished after this life for the sins their parents may have committed? I ask that to try to understand how Adam's sins transfer to you. Or.is it just Adam's transgression that transfers, and not his other sins? To me it seems a bit strange that God would hold somebody responsible for another's sins, but I'm looking at it through biased eyes. Judy: Maybe it would be easier to understand DAVEH if you look at the two trees in the garden as trees of wisdom. The tree of life being God's Word and the other tree the word of the adversary. People who represent God are to be oracles of God in this world. The alternative is to be an oracle for satan. It may be more conducive to focus on 'righteousness' and how to receive this gift rather than what everyone thinks about everything. Who do you choose to be an oracle for in this world? -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Adams FALL UPWARD
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: I agree. It does seem a bit strange. It always has. But apparently not to most of the traditional Protestant churches of the Reformation. They had infants baptized, or Christianed, as they called it, because they thought the sin of Adam was still upon them. Judy: I don't know which 'traditional' Protestant churches you refer to here Blaine and they all have different reasons for doing what they do. The Methodists sprinkle babies and so do the Presbyterians and probably the Episcopal Church. I know that PCA people view it as the parents making covenant for the child... but whatever the reason there is one common basic understanding and this is the fact that every person born into this world by natural generation comes with a spiritual inheritance from the first Adam and this is what the scriptures teach. It is sin singular rather than sins plural which come later. Blaine: The Mormon article of Faith you quoted refers to this practice. The BoM speaks even more extensively against infant baptism. Judy: The scriptures do not promote infant baptism but Mary and Joseph did bring Jesus to the temple to present him before the Lord and it was understood that they would raise him in the faith which should be the understanding of those who present their babies before the Lord today. I assume the BofM has some way other than the blood of Jesus to get the sin babies are born into off of them and this is where Christianity and Mormonism part company. Judy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 23:03:55 -0800 Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..We believe men will be punished for their own sins..To me it seems a bit strange that God would hold somebody responsible for another's sins, but I'm looking at it through biased eyes. This proves, explicitly, conclusively, that one cannot know God in Christ while adhering to LDS teaching; that LDS teaching has nothing to do with the NT/Gospel. http://OzG2004.blogspot.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Original sin
Another question for DavidM: Since you are so certain that Jesus is the natural genealogical seed of Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc. and the rule for interpreting scripture is that scripture ALWAYS interprets other scripture. How is it that Paul wrote in 68 A.D. "If you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise?" I belong to Christ so that makes ME Abraham's seed also no matter what blood runs through my veins... so obviously the seed is a spiritual seed rather than bio/genetic. But I am interested in your response Grace and Peace, Judy
[TruthTalk] Original sin
From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy wrote:Jesus became flesh and yes he was called the son of man but he was not ever of the same genealogyas Adam ie: "But He whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises and without allcontradiction the less is blessed of the better."(Hebrews 7:6,7). DavidM: The phrase, "whose descent is not counted from them" refers to the factthat Melchisedec was not descended from the SONS OF LEVI. This saysnothing about Jesus not coming from Abraham or Adam. Judy: It says everything about Jesus not coming by way of the Levitical Priesthood, or Abraham, or Adam because Melchisedec IS the pre incarnate Christ; there is just one King of Righteousness and just one King of Peace. The scripture teaches that Jesus is our 'forerunner' and He is made a high priest for ever after the order of Melchizidec. (Hebrews 6:20) DavidM: Why do you think Luke spends so much time giving us the genealogy of Jesus through Mary's line in Luke 3? Judy: Probably the same reason as Matthew who spends so much time giving us the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph's line in (Matthew 1:1) DavidM: Read Heb. 2:16 again. Jesus took on him the SEED OF ABRAHAM. Judy: The NAS reads "He does not give help to angels, He gives help to the descendents of Abraham" (Hebrews 2:16) which makes the meaning more exact. DavidM: For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but HE TOOK ON HIM THE SEED OF ABRAHAM. Judy: Yes, he came to give help to the descendents of Abraham... DavidM: Wherefore in all things it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:16-18 KJV). Judy: MADE LIKEis the qualifier in the above statement David. In James 3:9 we read "Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, WHICH ARE MADE AFTER THE SIMILITUDE OF GOD" Now noone in their right mind would say that this means men are God would they? DavidM: Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel. (2 Timothy 2:8 KJV); Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God withpower, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from thedead. (Romans 1:3-4 KJV) Judy: Let me go over this once more - Jesus was born of a descendent of David (the woman) and humanly speaking it is impossible for a woman to bear a seed, that is to have a child without the help of a man. But the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary's womb and she gave birth to a child who was Very Man and Very God. This seed had to die and shed His blood for our sin. He had to do what no ordinary human being COULD do, that is, to give SINLESS UNCONTAMINATED BLOOD for the sin of the world.Ideny that Jesus Christ is of the same genetical seed as Adam, Abraham, and David. Scripture teaches us that He is Melchizidec,King of Salemto whomAbraham gave a tithe.Hebrews 7:16 tells us he as our Great High Priestis not made after the law of a carnal commandmentbut after the power of an endless life." DavidM: Read the verse just BEFORE this one. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the SIMILITUDE of Melchisedec there ariseth ANOTHER priest. (Hebrews 7:15 KJV). The Scriptures do NOT teach that Melchisedec and Jesus were the same person. Melchisedec was a type of Christ, much like Joseph was, and much like the passover lamb was. Judy: He wasn't a type, he WAS Christ, same as the Rock that followed the children of Israel in the wilderness was Christ (1 Corinthians 10:4). Read the prophecy in Psalm 110:4 and the whole of Hebrews Chapter 7 and meditate on it. DavidM: Rather than belabor our discussion, please just look at the followingverse. Doesn't it prove it once and for all that Jesus had the sameblood as the rest of humanity? Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and BLOOD, he also himself likewise took part of the SAME. (Hebrews 2:14 KJV) Judy: The above tells me that Jesus partook of flesh and blood which I have never disputed. It is the kind of blood that flowed in his veins that we are discussing and this is because if he had blood from the family of man that is through the first Adam then just like the Levitical priests - hewould need asacrifice for his own iniquities whichstill would not have been enoughfor him to enter the Holy Place once and for all and be accepted. DavidM: And the following verses give the context: For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on himthe seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTOhis brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest
[TruthTalk] arophobia - fear of reason
Blaine: They clearly saw Jesus Christ as a rival to their own control over the source (the people) of what they valued most--money, power, status. Their hearts were so much preoccupied with these things, they rationalized to themselves they had cause against him sufficient to kill him. Judy: Is killing another human being ever a rational deed even when pre meditated and planned? More likely it is something done irrationally in the passion of the moment. **Blaine By rationaized, I mean they thought up excuses to do the deed. Rational does not always mean reasonable. In Psychology, to rationalize is to make excuses--it is considered an ego protective device employed commonly to protect the self-concept from admitting in reality, and thus endangering one's beliefs about himself as an integrated personality. Judy: At times ppl are so deceived that they kill in the sincere belief that they are doing God a favor. Blaine: Yet, as Jesus said, they hated me without a cause. If they had no cause, they must have therefore known who he was. But they chose to get rid of him anyway ... Judy: I do not get the connection above. How is hating him for no apparent reason proof that they actually knew who he was? They rejected his teaching and would not believe him for his works sake. Only a few of them such as Nicodemus who visited him at night with questions understood and believed the rest had darkened hearts and were as blind as bats. Understand that noone is able to come to Jesus unless they are drawn by the Father so apparently these religious men did not qualify. **Blaine: If you won't take my word for it, maybe you will believe Jesus. Judy: I don't take anyone's word for anything when it comes to spiritual truth Blaine. Too much at stake. I've learned the hard way to get before the Lord and check everything presented to me alongside His Truth. Blaine: Again, I refer you to the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. In the parable, the laborers (the Jews--Pharisees, scribes, etc.) knew the heir (Jesus) was the son of the vineyard owner (God). They killed him hoping this would enable them to retain control of the vineyard ( the Jewish religious system, or the populace) for themselves. thus preserving their valued positions in the then current socio-economic status system. Satan has power to tempt people to go for the short-term goals in preference to the long term ones, and they often do cave in. Judy: I'm familiar with the parable in three of the gospels and I know the religious leaders believed he had spoken it against them but I am not convinced that they had any understanding they just knew that he had spoken the parable against them. When the disciples asked Jesus why he taught in parables, his answer is interesting. See Matthew 13:13-16. **Blaine: The Romans held political power, and socio-economic power, but they conceded a lot of this power to the local leaders, in this case, the Jewish leaders. They did this in most of their occupied territories. It was easier to control the people. For the same reason, the US wants to have Iraq controlled by Iraqis, if possible. The word political is derived from the same root word as police. Both refer to the power to enforce law and order.They are not necessarily the same as social and economic power. Blaine: As Jesus said, What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose his own soul. This is a good question, but the answer is, people often do exactly that, and this is my whole point. These men preferred the short term goal over the longer term one. They sold their souls for a few pieces of silver, so to speak, just as did Judas Iscariot. Judy: The outcome may have been the same but this was not a mental or rational issue Blaine. These are spiritual realities - the Jewish leaders were full of religious spirits and rather than embrace the truth and allow the truth to make them free they rejected the Lord of Glory and chose to remain in their chains of hypocrisy and religious bondage. Their system went down along with the temple. **Blaine: I agree, especially with your word chose. (:) Blaine: To use an experience I had once with a woman who confessed she knew Mormonism was true--once having confessed this, she nevertheless refused to be baptized, because, as she later admitted, she didn't want to give up her alcoholic beverages, she didn't want to have to pay a 10% tithe, and most of all she did not want to give up her friends and family, who were all against her becoming a member of the LDS Church. Judy: The woman was apparently confused **Blaine: Apparently? She didn't seem confused to me. Judy: but I can't grieve for her any more than for you and DaveH because if you guys had a genuine revelation of the real Jesus you would burn your books of Mormon, fall at his feet and follow him becoming a sheep rather than a god, because He is in fact
[TruthTalk] arophobia: fear of reason
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: I respectfully (DavidH has taught me a few things) disagree. (:) They definitely were keeping their fingers on the pulse of the common folk, I have no contention with that. But they did it because these folks were the source of their power, wealth and social status. Judy: They weren't elected officials Blaine. The seat of Moses was something instituted by God. **Blaine: The seat of Moses--was it the High Priest's office? If so, the HP office was a political plum during the time of Jesus Christ. Whereas it was by tradition and commandment to be reserved for the seed of Aaron only, during this time it was an appointment from Herod and the Romans alike. Judy: That's mighty big of Herod since he was an Edomite and a Philistine. He only married the daughter of one of the high priests so you can see how perverted everything had become by the time of Jesus. Blaine: Although it was traditionally a lifetime appointment, the office was filled by 28 different men between 37 B.C. and A.D. 68. So, regards your contention that this was not an elected office, you are correct. However, although the power of life and death was reserved for Roman officers, the Jewish leaders had considerable influence--power--as evidenced by the fact they were able to stir up the populace to demand the crucifixion of Jesus. Judy: I'm not surprised, dosen't sound like they were too blessed does it? Blaine: The populace was basically the only thing they both feared and revered, since by manipulating it, they could apparently persuade the Roman governor to go against his own judgements, knowing the last thing he wanted was an insurrection of the populace. Judy: They may have feared losing the ppl but I don't believe they revered them because of their religious stand. They told the man who received his eyesight that he was born in sin and they knew that God will not hear sinners... which is true but the underlying assumption here is that they themselves weren't. Blaine: Their power to manipulate the populace came from the high status/ prestige of their offices as members of the Sanhedrin, and as Priests, Levites, teachers, etc., which were traditional offices in the Priesthood of Aaron. Holders of these titles and offices were reverenced by almost all Jews, even Jesus counseled to listen to the HP and elders, but to not do what they did. Judy: Well they may have fooled some of the ppl some of the time but they didn't fool all of the ppl all of the time because it was noted at least once that Jesus taught as one having authority and not like the scribes. A person with spiritual discernment today can tell if a preacher/teacher speaks the words of Jesus or is off on a tangent doing his own thing. Blaine: In their peculiar social structure, holding religious office and having high social status went hand in hand, eclipsed only by the amount of money one could show evidence of having access to--what one social scientist of recent times has called status symbols. Status symbols vary from society to society, but money always seems to be what the symbols represent. In our society, we value expensive cars--the more expensive, the more status associated with the symbol. Jewelry is the same. The more expensive, the better. A $10,000.00 Rolex does not keep better time than an $80.00 Citizen watch, but people still want the Rolex above any other, because of the status if confers upon the owner. And houses!! A house with five bedrooms and three baths carries more status than one with two bedrooms and one bath (:) Right? But either way, the symbols represent money-- Judy: Shows where their hearts were since it is impossible to serve both God and Mammon. It's obvious where their treasure is and where that is their hearts were also and Jesus told them so. Blaine: and in the case of the Pharisees and other Jewish chief priests and scribes, the source of the money was selling religious items to the populace, and if it could be done on the temple grounds, all the better, as doing such added to the significance and importance of the for-sale items, and therefore higher prices could likely have been charged. Judy: It wasn't temple souvenirs or anything like that. I understood they were selling inferior animals for sacrifice and over charging the people for them. Blaine: The only real fear the Jewish leaders had was the populace in general, whom both the appointed Jewish officials as well as the Romans had nightmares about, since insurrection was an ever-present possibility. They all knew the Jews were an intelligent and religiously zealous bunch, very hard to control at times, especially when it came to religious issues. A popular leader, as Jesus Christ was, became the only real fear these Jewish leaders had. When Christ entered the city of Jerusalem on the colt of an ass, this had tremendous significance to the
[TruthTalk] Original sin
From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]DavidM wrote:Rather than belabor our discussion, please justlook at the following verse. Doesn't it prove it once and for all that Jesus had the same blood as the rest of humanity? Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and BLOOD, he also himself likewise took part of the SAME. (Hebrews 2:14 KJV)Judy:The above tells me that Jesus partook of flesh and blood which I have never disputed. It is the kindof blood that flowed in his veins that we arediscussing DavidM: I feel that we are wrangling over words to no profit, so my response will be brief. In this passage, you seem to be doing everything humanly possible to dodge the clear message of the passage. It does not just say that he partook of flesh and blood. It speaks of the kind of flesh and blood which he partook of. It was the SAME as ours. It is written, "FOREASMUCH THEN AS the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise TOOK PART OF THE SAME." Green's literal translation reads: "Since, then, the children havepartaken of flesh and blood, IN LIKE MANNER He Himself ALSO SHARED THE SAME THINGS." Judy: Yes and the same things he shared are flesh and blood. DavidM: Jesus shared the same kind of flesh and blood as we do. He was descended genetically from Adam, Abraham, and David. This is the testimony of Scripture. You can deny it all you want, but the Bible is clear on this matter. There is no need to argue it away. Judy: Scripture teaches that he was born of a woman, his blood was generated by God. You would have to read your theory into what is written David becausescripture does not clearly state what you are tryingto make it say and one who understands Gods holiness andthe pervasiveness ofgenerational iniquity would never accept this. I know there are many liberal scholars who minimize or even negate the virgin birth but you are the firstI have encountered in person. I wrote:If he (Jesus of Nazareth) had blood from thefamily of man that is through the first Adamthen just like the Levitical priests - he wouldhave had tofirstsacrifice for his own iniquity and this still would not have qualified him to enter the heavenly sanctuary and have his blood accepted for our sin once for all. DavidM: What is this foolishness? What do you mean by saying, "It still would not have been enough for him to enter the Holy Place once and for all"? If the high priest could enter the holy place offering the blood of animals, could not Jesus also enter it offering his own blood? Judy: I am speaking of Jesus entering the heavenly sanctuary. The high priest entered the earthly tabernacle once a year for the people after havingalready made sacrifice for himself and his own sin. Jesus entered the heavenly tabernacle once for all with the eternal blood of the new covenant. DavidM: Surely you are aware that the Scriptures tell us of the animalsacrifices that were offered for Jesus Christ when he was born (Luke 2:24). Why was that done from your perspective? Judy: Mary and Joseph followed God's law formotherhood; Mary had given birth to a male child so she was unclean for seven days and when the days of her purification were completed she brought her child to the temple to present him to God giving two turtledoves one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering and the priestd made atonement for her so that she could be clean. DavidM: Something else to consider is that if Jesus was not born of a woman, of the same flesh and truly descended physically from Adam, Abraham, and David, then he would not be subject to the law and sacrifices that were commanded. Think about that. Was Jesus under the law or not? Judy: He was born under the law and he fulfilled the law. I have a question about Jesus sonship for you David since you are so certainthat he was born with a carnal nature just like the rest of us... "Jesus answered and said while he taught in the temple. How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost "The Lord said to my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool" (Mark 12:35) David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? Grace and Peace, Judy carnal as the rest of us.
[TruthTalk] arophobia: fear of reason
From: "Blaine Borrowman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]**Blaine: I respectfully (DavidH has taught me a few things) disagree. (:) They definitely were keeping their fingers on the pulse of the common folk, I have no contention with that. But they did it because these folks were the source of their power, wealth and social status. Judy: They weren't elected officials Blaine. The seat of Moses was something instituted by God. Blaine: These men--scribes and Pharisees-- were the ones who bought and sold in the temple, and were the ones Jesus drove out on two different occasions. Judy: I understand there to have been just one of these incidents; but yes the religious leaders were in charge of what went on at the temple. Blaine: They clearly saw Jesus Christ as a rival to their own control over the source (the people) of what they valued most--money, power, status. Their hearts were so much preoccupied with these things, theyrationalized to themselves they had cause against him sufficient to kill him. Judy: Is killing another human beingever a rational deed even when pre meditated and planned? More likely it issomething done irrationally in the passion of the moment. Blaine: Yet, as Jesus said, they "hated me without a cause." If they had no cause, they must have therefore known who he was. But they chose to get rid of him anyway ... Judy: I do not get the connectionabove. How is hating him for no apparent reason proof that they actually knew who he was? They rejected his teaching and would not believe him for his works sake. Only a few of them such as Nicodemus who visitedhim at night with questions understood and believed the rest had darkened hearts and were as blind as bats.Understand that noone is able to come to Jesus unless they are drawn by the Father so apparently these religious mendid not qualify. Blaine: thus preserving their valued positions in the then current socio- economic status system. Satan has power to tempt people to go for the short-term goals in preference to the long term ones, and they often do cave in. Judy: The Romans hadthesocio economic power in Israel during the time of Jesus earthly ministry;the scribes and pharisees were religious people who could not have had him legally killedwithout the Roman Governor's consent. Blaine: As Jesus said, "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose his own soul." This is a good question, but the answer is, people often do exactly that, and this is my whole point. These men preferred the short term goal over the longer term one. They sold their souls for a few pieces of silver, so to speak, just as did Judas Iscariot. Judy: The outcome may have been the same but this was not a mental or rational issue Blaine. These are spiritual realities- the Jewish leaders were full of religious spirits and rather than embrace the truth and allow the truth to make themfree they rejected the Lord of Glory and chose to remain in their chains of hypocrisy and religious bondage. Theirsystem went down along with the temple. Blaine: To use an experience I had once with a woman who confessed she knew Mormonism was true--once having confessed this, she nevertheless refused to be baptized, because, as she later admitted, she didn't want to give up her alcoholic beverages, she didn't want to have to pay a 10% tithe, and most of all she did not want to give up her friends and family, who were all against her becoming a member of the LDS Church. Judy: The woman was apparently confused butI can't grieve for her any more thanfor you and DaveHbecause if you guys had agenuine revelation of the real Jesus you would burnyour books of Mormon, fall at his feetand follow him becoming a sheep rather than a god,because He is in fact the Word of God, the living Word, and the ONLY way to the Kingdom of God and eternal life. Judy
[TruthTalk] Original sin
From: "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jesus was fully man. He took on flesh,. He was born of a woman. As he grew, he INCREASED in wisdom and stature. He felt hunger and thirst and pain, He died. Yet Jesus was also fully God. God is the SAME, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He was God in Genesis 1:1, He was God in the womb, He was God on the cross, He is God today and will be God forever. The SAME!Don't ask me to explain it. Just look at God's word. Terry Judy: I have no problem with any of the above Terry ... I agree. I never ever saidthat Jesusdid not take upon Himself a body of flesh. Of course he did otherwise he couldn't have died on the cross for you and for me. What I was saying in the partial sentence belowwas supposed to be that in essence Jesus was not primarily a flesh body and just because he was made in the "likeness" of sinful flesh did not make himexactly the same as us.. I'll go into more detail when I reply to DavidM. But thanks for your input. Judy Judy wrote:... Jesus is NOT a flesh body. DavidM:Have you not read the testimony of Scripture?Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see;for a spirit hath not FLESH and bones, AS YE SEE ME HAVE. And when hehad thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
[TruthTalk] Immortality Redemption
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Note it is the dead in Christ who are dead and those who are alive in Christ - Noone makes it apart from the sacrifice and obedience to the Word of God. You are missing the whole point. I don't know what more to say other than to repeat what I have already said. God doesn't need a dead body in order to redeem a person from sin. Judy: Are you saying that there is another way that He could have done it without the sacrifice of Christ and without us laying down our lives as a living sacrifice? What exactly am I not getting? Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Original sin
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Only if he was a man with Adam's blood coursing through his veins which would impart Adam's iniquity and disqualify him as a sacrifice for our sin. DavidM: I'm not buying what you're selling, Judy. :-) Judy: I'm not selling anything DavidM God's Truth is priceless just like the blood of the covenant. DavidM: If the blood of a lowly lamb can atone for sin, how much more can the blood of a righteous man born of the seed of Adam atone for sin. Judy: The blood of lowly lambs was a temporary measure which never did atone for sin - it only covered the sin of Israel as a nation one year - they all looked ahead to the coming of the promised seed. DavidM: On the other hand, if Jesus did not have the blood of Adam coursing through his veins, he would have been disqualified from being an eternal sacrifice for our sin. Judy: What basis in fact do you have for the above statement? The blood of Adam is a contaminant and this is why we are in need of redemption. You did not answer my question re the 'virgin birth' DavidM. Why the need for a virgin birth if your theory is correct? DavidM: Only the son of man could redeem man. Judy: The son of man born of a woman. DavidM: If Jesus had come through some other way, he would have been a thief and a robber. However, Jesus came through the door, that is to say, his flesh. Judy: The door is Jesus Himself, (you have added the word flesh) Jesus Himself is the ONLY way into the sheepfold and it is Jesus plus nothing and Jesus is NOT a flesh body. DavidM: Jesus became man that he might redeem man rightfully so. Satan came in his own form and as a thief usurped the authority of man. Judy: Satan used the body of a serpent, he can also use the body of a man. Spirits are quite versatile. Adam's authority was not stolen from him. He gave it away - it was his choice and he was not deceived. DavidM: Jesus came in the flesh of man so that he rightfully possessed that which belonged to him as a man. Judy: And what was that? Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Immortality Redemption
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Are you saying that there is another way that He could have done it without the sacrifice of Christ and without us laying down our lives as a living sacrifice? What exactly am I not getting? DavidM: No, I'm saying that the sacrifice of Christ does not require that we be physically dead in order to receive it. If Jesus comes today in the next few minutes, I would be transformed without ever experiencing death. God does not need me to be physically dead in order to redeem me. This in my mind is proof that the idea is wrong that I must be physically dead in order to be redeemed. Judy: Who said you would have to be physically dead to be redeemed? I know I didn't say that. However, if Jesus does come today noone will be transformed who has not agreed with God about being dead in trespass and sin and in desperate need of spiritual life by way of His Savior Redeemer DavidM: The prospect of physical death is extremely important in our own psychology of how we deal with sin and trusting in God. This is the reason that I believe God barred the way to the tree of life after sin entered the world. Prior to sin, Adam and Eve were allowed to eat of the tree of life and I have no reason to believe that they did not eat of it regularly. Judy: And what exactly do you perceive the tree of life to be? Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] FYI - Deceived soul - good response...from a Christian list.
salem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Excuse me!!Would you stop for a moment?!O...man...Haven't you thought-one day- about yourself ?Who has made it? Have you seen a design which hasn't a designer ?!Have you seen a wonderful,delicate work without a worker ?!It's you and the whole universe!..Who has made them all ?!!You know who ?.. It's "ALLAH",prise be to him. Just think for a moment.How are you going to be after death ?!Can you believe that this exact system of the universe and all ofthese great creation will end in in nothing...just after death!Have you thought, for a second, How to save your soul from Allah'spunishment?!Haven't you thought about what is the right religion?! Read ... and think deeply before you answer..It is religion of Islam.It is the religion that Mohammad-peace upon him- the last prophet,had been sent by. It is the religion that the right Bible- which is not distorted-has preached. Just have a look at The Bible of (Bernaba).Don't be emstional. Be rational and judge..Just look..listen...compare..and then judge and say your word.We advise you visiting :http://www.islam-guide.comhttp://www.thetruereligion.org Excuse me Salem, It was a nicely written letter. But have you ever considered that Mohammad was a man deluded by a demon who appeared as an angel of light, and that allah is that demon who claims deity. This makes Mohammad a false prophet. There is one true God, His name is Yahweh (often translated as Jehovah)and his Son Yeshua (Jesus). These two, joined by the Ruach haKodesh (Holy Spirit), makes up what is called the Godhead/Trinity - the One God who manifests in three Persons. This is not the place to extoll a demonic entity who claims the place that belongs to Yahweh. Rick
[TruthTalk] arophobia: fear of reason
From: "Blaine Borrowman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine, Hi Judy, Well, the point was that they could not reason against him--they might have tried rationalizing, or in other words, making excuses for themselves. But apparently they were so used to being in charge, they expected compliance with their dictates and their traditions to be automatic. Of course, they were envious!! And remember, charity envieth not! They had no love in their hearts for him, so they sought to kill him, and finally succeeded. Judy: They had no love for anyone, including God, they served themselves with an outward religious veneer and Jesuslayed down his life. Noone was successfulat killing him, he was led by the Spirit of God as a lamb to the slaughter. Blaine: They had tried before, but failed, and would have failed again if it had not been for the betrayal of Judas Iscariot--the unrepentant thief, the man who carried the money bag, wholet his greed overpower his testimony that Jesus was the Messiah, something he knew to be true. Judy: Judas' duplicityfinally caught up with him for Satan had entered into him prior tothat kiss of betrayal; I don't know whether Judas had a revelation of Jesus as Messiah (like Peter - which must come from heaven) I doubt itbut he did know (after the fact) that he had killed innocent blood because he said so.EvenSatan who indwelled Judas had no victoryin his death, burial, and resurrectionbecause it is written "None of the rulers of this age understood God's wisdom because if they hadunderstood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Corinthians 2:8) Blaine: Do you suppose these men who paid Judas 30 peices of silver (the price of a slave) were aware, along with Judas, that this was the Messiah they were doing away with? There is evidence they were. Judy: Where is this evidence? I just showedfrom 1 Corinthians above that neither Satan nor the people he used in executing his supposed plan knew what they were about. Judy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Blaine: There is no reason against the Truth and the people knew Jesus spoke as one having authority and not like the scribes (Mark 1:22 and Matthew 7:29). It was not for "arophobia" that the Jewish leadershad him killed, it was for envy (that green eyed monster);this is what the scripture teaches. Pilate the Roman Governor wasthe one with civil authority and he was aware of this(see Matthew 27:18 and Mark 15:10) Judy From: "Blaine Borrowman" Blaine: The Jews were free to use reason to counter his statements, but chose instead to use their authority and influence to have him killed. This was an extreme form of arophobia, I would say.
[TruthTalk] deceived
From: "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let me throw y'all something to ponder. I'm tired of scratching my head alone. Consider this: Satan is described as a deceiver. We are warned that he will, if possible, deceive us. I think that all of us will agree that this is true. The Bible not only says so; we ourselves have all seen deceived people. Sometimes, they are real easy to spot. We are not surprised at this. Satan has been around longer than the human race. He is the father of lies.He has experience. He is good at what he does. My question is, since this is a common occurance, how do you know that you are not the one being deceived? Satan doesn't just work on the stupid and the uneducated, and he doesn't say, "Now I am going to deceive you". In fact, the way he operates, the one being deceived never realizes that he or she is deceived. It is always someone else. If you knew you were deceived, you would not be deceived. So how do you know that you aren't? Terry Judy: Very good question Terry; I've been wondering how to approach the subject of demon oppressed/led believers and you are making it easier. As we see in the life of Abraham (the father of faith) the fruit of faith is obedience to the will of God. We shouldrecognize the voice of the Chief Shepherd and obey Him. Eve was deceived because she listened to the wrong voice and acted upon the wrong message.At one point during his ministry to the Church at Corinth the apostle Paul tells themhe isafraid for them "lest somehow as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so their minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3) Paulgoes on tospeak of one who comes with another Jesus, a different spirit, and a differentgospel - a scenario which we are all familiar with on TT. Over the 2,000+ years since Calvary the adversary has produced more than 400 different Protestant gospels and this is not includingthe quasi-Christian cults and the RCC. I know from personal experience that it is possible for a born again believer to be deceived because I've been there and today I guard against the spirit of errorby continuing to study to show myself approved to God and to the best of my ability walking in all the light He has given me. We mustknow God andHis ways so that when the othervoice speaks to us or any idea that exalts itself above the clear teaching of God's Word presents itself we are quick to take it captive and cast it down to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor 10:5). Grace and Peace, Judy
[TruthTalk] Adam's Transgression
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] How does God know about right and wrong? DAVEH wrote: If I were to ask that question of you, would you not say that is the definition/nature of God? DavidM: Not exactly. Calvinists would tend to answer this way, but I do not believe that right and wrong is defined by God per se, meaning, I do not believe something is right just because God says it is right. I believe that God is always right because his knowledge is complete enough to know the difference in every situation. I believe that the definition of right and wrong exists outside of any reference to God. Judy: Who makes the determination then if not God? Who is the one who defines what is good and what is evil? Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] [TruthTalk Digest]
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perry wrote: If I may interject, neither Adam nor Eve were physically immortal to start with. DavidM: I'm VERY surprised to hear this response. Why do you believe that they were created as mortal beings who would die? Judy: I'm not Perry (hope you don't mind Perry), I would say they were potentially mortal depending upon from which tree it was that they ate. Perry wrote: The death that God was talking about was spiritual death! Does not spiritual life result in physical life, and spiritual death result in physical death? Judy: Yes and there were two trees in the garden, one produced life and the other death. DavidM: The literal reading of Genesis 2:17 is as follows: Green's Literal Translation: but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die. (Genesis 2:17 LITV) Young's Literal Translation: and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.' (Genesis 2:17 YLT) The dying thou dost die phrase is called among the Rabbi's a doubled death. They interpret it to refer to both spiritual and physical death. This makes a lot of sense to me. Perry wrote: Recall that they were bannished from the garden so they would not partake of the tree of life and, thus, live forever in a fallen and unredeemable state. Kicking them out of the garden was an act of mercy, to remove them from the presence of the tree of life, thus allowing them to be remain redeemable. DavidM: I don't understand. Why would living forever make them unredeemable? Judy: Because they would be living eternally in that present fallen state with no other option. DavidM: It seems to me that the problem of them living forever is not that they would be unredeemable, but rather that their progeny being born in a sinful state would have problems created by the longevity of their ancestors. This is perhaps partly why the lifespan of man was continually shortened as the iniquity of men increased. Modern man's lifespan is one-tenth of those who lived in Adam's generation. Judy: Because of sin and the curses that accompany it. One good plague can wipe out a lot of people before their time. Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Adam's Transgression
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Who makes the determination then if not God? Who is the one who defines what is good and what is evil? DavidM: Good is defined by the utility of the action. If I love my child and feed her and nourish her, that is good because the fruit of my actions is beneficial. Judy: You sound like Charles Finney David. This may be his definition and yours but it is not necessarily God's. What if you did all of the above in an overweening spirit of pride. Would that still be good in God's eyesight? He says he is far from the proud but gives grace to the humble. DavidM: It doesn't matter whether God declares it good or not. It would be good whether God declared it good or not, and even if there was no God, it would still be good. Judy: In whose opinion? Brute beasts take care of their young, they do it by the instinct that God put in them but this does not make them good. DavidM: Nevertheless, we understand that God is always on the side of good, so in complicated matters that involve knowledge which we lack, we can trust the Word of God so that we can be sure that what he calls evil is truly evil and what he calls good is truly good. Judy: He is not only on the side of good, He is the source of all that is good. Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Immortality Redemption
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why would living forever make them unredeemable? Judy wrote: Because they would be living eternally in that present fallen state with no other option. DavidM: What do you mean, with no other option. Jesus could still redeem them and they could believe in him. Why must one eventually die physically in order to be able to be redeemed? Judy: Because the first creation (the first Adam) and his seed are cursed. God does not want to spend eternity with a bunch of devils. This is why they were banished from the garden (see Genesis 3:22-24) DavidM: Paul teaches that we who are alive will not prevent those who have died. It seems to me that redemption works just fine with those who are still alive. I don't understand why you or Perry would say that there must be physical death in order for a plan of redemption to be able to be offered to man. Judy: Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom. The first Adam became a living soul, the second a life-giving spirit - We must agree with God repent of our sin and reckon our old man dead before we are fit for the Kingdom of God. DavidM: I can understand how man might not want to be redeemed if he is not looking at physical death ahead of him, but I do not understand how physical death is a requirement for redemption to be offered. Judy: Depends where one is walking I guess. There is no record that Enoch or Elijah died physically and noone knows where Moses is buried. However, there is no doubt that all three walked closely with God which would mean - after the Spirit. DavidM: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord SHALL NOT PREVENT THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 KJV). Judy: Note it is the dead in Christ who are dead and those who are alive in Christ - Noone makes it apart from the sacrifice and obedience to the Word of God. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] arophobia: fear of reason
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: Do you suppose these men who paid Judas 30 peices of silver (the price of a slave) were aware, along with Judas, that this was the Messiah they were doing away with?There is evidence they were. Judy: Where is this evidence? I just showed from 1 Corinthians above that neither Satan nor the people he used in executing his supposed plan knew what they were about. **Blaine: I doubt they understood fully what the results of killing the Son of God would mean--but that they knew who he was there is little doubt. See the parable of the laborers in the vineyard, Matthew 21:33-45, wherein the laborers first killed the servants of the Lord of the vineyard, then killed the son, or, as he was called, the heir. The wicked laborers said, This is the heir, come, let us kill him, and seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. . . . And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spoke of them. Judy: They may have been paranoid and thought he was talking about them but their main concern was the people and who they were listening to. The scribes and pharisees referred to Jesus as Rabbi or teacher but only a few of them had any kind of spiritual insight Anyone who truly had a revelation about who he was bowed down and worshipped Him. The religious leaders never did this, they never did know that he was their Messiah. Judy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Blaine: There is no reason against the Truth and the people knew Jesus spoke as one having authority and not like the scribes (Mark 1:22 and Matthew 7:29). It was not for arophobia that the Jewish leaders had him killed, it was for envy (that green eyed monster); this is what the scripture teaches. Pilate the Roman Governor was the one with civil authority and he was aware of this (see Matthew 27:18 and Mark 15:10) Judy From: Blaine Borrowman Blaine: The Jews were free to use reason to counter his statements, but chose instead to use their authority and influence to have him killed. This was an extreme form of arophobia, I would say. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] deceived
From: "Blaine Borrowman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: But Judy, if what presents itself as the "clear teaching of God's word" is really so clear, how come your stats--400 different Protestant gospels-- suggest otherwise? Judy: The fact that there are so many different gospels does not reflect poorly on the Word itself, the problem nowis with the people, same as it has always been. God said "My people perish for lack of knowledge" and He does not bless ignorance. Blaine: I do not doubt they seem clear to you,and they do to me too, but they apparently also seem clear to those who draw different conclusions from you or I--and even you and I do not always agree.There are not only the Protestants who cannot agree, but we have a growing number of Messianics who disagree with what is fundamentally agreed upon by most Protestants-- that the feasts of the Law of Moses no longer need to be kept, the Sabbath should be observed on Sunday, not Saturday, etc. All this from the same "clear teaching of God's word." Read the following, and tell wethat this does not describe our day: Judy: As I say above, it is not a problem with the Word, the problem is with the people. Scripture is quite clear about the Levitical law and rituals being nailed to the cross. Isaiah 29:9-10 Stay yourselves, and wonder, cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine. They stagger, but not with strong drink. For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes; the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men. Judy: The above was true in Isaiah's day, it was true when Jesus spoke these words to the Jews (Matt 13:14-16)and it is true today but God has always had a people, there has always been a remnant who loved God and love His Truth. Judy From: "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let me throw y'all something to ponder. I'm tired of scratching my head alone. Consider this: Satan is described as a deceiver. We are warned that he will, if possible, deceive us. I think that all of us will agree that this is true. The Bible not only says so; we ourselves have all seen deceived people. Sometimes, they are real easy to spot. We are not surprised at this. Satan has been around longer than the human race. He is the father of lies.He has experience. He is good at what he does. My question is, since this is a common occurance, how do you know that you are not the one being deceived? Satan doesn't just work on the stupid and the uneducated, and he doesn't say, "Now I am going to deceive you". In fact, the way he operates, the one being deceived never realizes that he or she is deceived. It is always someone else. If you knew you were deceived, you would not be deceived. So how do you know that you aren't? Terry Judy: Very good question Terry; I've been wondering how to approach the subject of demon oppressed/led believers and you are making it easier. As we see in the life of Abraham (the father of faith) the fruit of faith is obedience to the will of God. We shouldrecognize the voice of the Chief Shepherd and obey Him. Eve was deceived because she listened to the wrong voice and acted upon the wrong message.At one point during his ministry to the Church at Corinth the apostle Paul tells themhe isafraid for them "lest somehow as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so their minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3) Paulgoes on tospeak of one who comes with another Jesus, a different spirit, and a differentgospel - a scenario which we are all familiar with on TT. Over the 2,000+ years since Calvary the adversary has produced more than 400 different Protestant gospels and this is not includingthe quasi-Christian cults and the RCC. I know from personal experience that it is possible for a born again believer to be deceived because I've been there and today I guard against the spirit of errorby continuing to study to show myself approved to God and to the best of my ability walking in all the light He has given me. We mustknow God andHis ways so that when the othervoice speaks to us or any idea that exalts itself above the clear teaching of God's Word presents itself we are quick to take it captive and cast it down to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor 10:5).
[TruthTalk] [TruthTalk Digest]
- Forwarded Message - From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Furthermore..LDS theology teaches they could not have had children prior to the fall anyway.) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do they teach this? Laura DAVEH: It is revealed in the BofM... And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. 2Ne 2:22-25 Judy: The above makes not one bit of sense DaveH. How incredulous to try to get people to believe that the creator of all joy is joyless and that he made AE this way; that one has to wallow in the mire to have fun, and that men can't be men unless they are in satan's image ... because this is the outcome of the fall, the two trees in the garden represent opposing types of wisdom. DaveH: ...Does that answer your question, Laura? Now let me ask you a couple...IF Adam had not transgressed, he would have been immortal. I assume you agree with that? Then, do you believe immortal men and women can have children? Now let me take it a step further..suppose Eve had partaken of the FF and had fallen, but Adam had not transgressed and remained immortal. Do you think Adam (being in a higher state of immortality) could have had children with Eve (in a lower state of mortality)? Judy: Why strain the brain trying to figure all this out in our fallen state DaveH? Are we God? I don't know about Laura maybe she knows more than me but I don't see any point in trying to speculate on what might have been. ATST I know that to be holy is a whole lot better for both men and women than the alternate. Sin leads to sickness, sorrow, sadness and death - all good gifts come from above from the Father of Lights in whom there is no degree of shadow or turning... that's reality. Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Fw: RE: [TruthTalk] arophobia: fear of reason
Judy: I don't know whether I would call your example "fear of reason" Blaine - I've seen this happen time and time again with the homosexual communityon television. When they have a representative discussing some issue with the "talking heads"and he beginsto loseground invariably they allbecome impassioned andtalk over or shout down the other person. IMO the issue is not reason or fear it is morality. Homosexuals are massively deceived and their morality has determined their theology. This man's basic problemis sin along with a depraved mind. Theman hasa problem with God and he is defendingignorance which is a form of wisdom (the kind that comes from the wrong tree). ++ From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] If this is true-Where does this place Jesus when he called them hypocrites-foxes-blind leading the blind? From: Blaine Borrowman The word is “arophobia” \ n. (arophobe n., arophobic adj.). Its definition is as follows: “The intense, abnormal, or illogical fear of reason evidenced by personal attacks and/or attempts to place derogatory labels on those with differing views.” To understand the etymology of this new word, you should know that the Indo-European root of the word “reason” is “ar,” which means “to fit together.” Derivatives include words such as “army,” “harmony,” and “arithmetic.” In other words, one who is able to reason is one who is able to fit things together and make some sense out of them. When coupled with the familiar suffix, “phobia,” which means “inordinate fear,” you have this word, “arophobia.” Thus my counsel: Don’t be an arophobe. I’ll share another quick story to exemplify an occasion when I believe use of this word would have been appropriate. A couple of months ago I was invited to be a guest on a one-hour radio talk show originating in Austin, Texas and accessible nationwide over the internet. I joined the broadcast via telephone. The one other guest on the show was in studio, I’ll call him Steve, a homosexual man who with his partner was trying to adopt a child. Steve was an attorney there in Austin and was active in the community in promoting a homosexual political agenda. The recent Supreme Court ruling in Lawrence v. Texas on sodomy was part of the discussion, as was a possible federal marriage amendment and adoption by same-sex couples. During the discussion on adoption, Steve asserted in passing that potential fears relating to pedophilia among homosexuals were unfounded and that there were no differences between homosexual couples and heterosexual couples. Being aware of several studies that challenge this assertion, I thought it needful to share them. As I did so, Steve immediately became emotionally charged and began shouting irrationally into the microphone, “Liar! Liar! Liar! Liar!” Although I could hear his voice over the telephone, I could also hear my own and therefore just kept talking. Others listening to the show later told me that his voice completely drowned mine out, and that my level voice could only be heard when he took a breath. When I stopped speaking, and he stopped shouting, the host of the show attempted to make a reconciliatory statement and broke for commercials. Although a man practiced in rational argument, Steve’s only response had been to abandon reason and attack the messenger. Although I never met the man personally, I am left to conclude that Steve is arophobic.
Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Orwellian LDS
Just a couple of thoughts to add to the Mormon melee. Our daughter was here last night, the one who is friendly with the Mormon boy in Hawaii and who used to travel to Utah often on business. She has a friend in Utah whowas raised in Christian Science in SLC; hekeeps her current with what is going on in the media with the LDS. Recently he sent her the article about the Kinston family which had to do with incest and polygamy and his comment wasthat whenever Mormon polygamists are prosecuted they are NEVER charged with polygamy itself, it is always some other charge such has having sex with a minor etc. I find this curious - Why is that since polygamy itself is illegal? My daughter investigated the tattoo/BYU thing and she tells me the tattooed basketball player is notMormon and that he had the tattoos already. He did get a new one (violating his agreement with BYU) but the photo in question was taken before he got this one (which is on his wrist). She read that BYU are presently not air brushing photos but they have done so in the past and in one photo they even superimposed the head of a popular player (who was absent for the photo- op) onto someone elses body so who knows what is real and what is not since thefruit of deception is more deception. I'm opting for taking thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ and dwelling in Truth which is in Him Grace and Peace, Judy
Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Orwellian LDS
Kevin:
Can't we start focusing on the truth and just let the Mormons
do what they want to do? I can't see that spending so much time
and effort looking into the details of what they believe and how they
practice it is glorifying to the Lord. What is the purpose?
Judy
From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
There seems to be some confusion about who controls BYU
The control board that removes tattoos from pictures etc.
Some say it is not LDS Church controlled.
The controlling board of BYU is made up of 13 members:
The General Authorities are in Complete control with 9members from
either;
The First Presidency, Presidents Two Counselors or the Quorum of the
Twelve
The head of the Church parochial education system, a member of the
Presidency of the Seventy
3 seats are filled by women Presidents of the womens auxiliaries directly
appointed by the GA's
The pres of BYU is a member of the First quorum of Seventy
All students must attend LDS religion classes and conform to the
regulations drawn up by the university and approved by the controlling
board
98.6% of the students are LDS and must recieve an annual letter of
recommendation from their Bishop to continue at BYU.
98% of the faculty are LDS
_expression_ of ideas unfavorable to the Church is restricted.
There is no academic freedom at BYU
No other University in the US exhibits this much control.
http://www.ldsces.org/training/teach/emphasis_video_ebrandt.html
Elder Boyd K. Packer "Some things that are true are not very
useful"
"Teaching some things that are true, prematurely or at the wrong time, can
invite sorrow and heartbreak instead of the joy intended to accompany
learning The scriptures teach emphatically that we must give milk before
meat. The Lord made it very clear that some things are to be taught
selectively and some things are to be given only to those who are
worthy."
Elder Mark E. Petersen "Our authorities are the scriptures, the four
standard works. Joseph Smith and the other Presidents and leaders are likewise
our authorities. They are our file leaders. We must teach as they do. We
must avoid the doctrines which they avoid" ("Avoiding Sectarianism," in
Charge to Religious Educators, 2nd ed. [1982], 118).
"Be not led by any spirit or influence that discredits
established authority . . . or leads away from the direct revelations
of God for the government of the Church. The Holy Ghost does not contradict its
own revealings. Truth is always harmonious with itself. Piety is often the cloak
of error. The counsels of the Lord through the channel he has appointed will be
followed with safety" (Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, and Charles W. Penrose,
"A Warning Voice," Improvement Era, Sept. 1913, 1149).Kevin
Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Aug 8,1992 - Salt Lake Tribune reports that First Presidencys spokesman
has acknowledged existence of special Strengthening the Members
Committee that keeps secret files on church members
regarded as disloyal. Due to publicity on this matter, including New York
Times, Presidency issues statement on 13 Aug. defending organization of this
apostle-directed committee as consistent with Gods commandment to Joseph
Smith to gather documentation about non-Mormons who mob and persecute LDS
Church. Presidency lists Apostles James E. Faust and Russell M. Nelson as
leading the committee.
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it!
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it!
[TruthTalk] Orwellian LDS
I hearyouGaryand I don't want to beunreasonable, I guess I am justburned out on everything Mormon because there has been so much of it posted by the SP's.The Church Growth Movement ? Well it's a relatively new topic but I would choke on a steady diet of that also. BTW, thanks Perry for posting your impression, I'm thinking about that... Judy- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is it reasonable to take the position, below, Judy, re: K's (Morman) post, but unreasonable to [discuss, as factually/detailed as possible, e.g.,] the immediately following (Evangelical) post(?): http://OzG2004.blogspot.com On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 15:05:55 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What was your impression then Charles? Do you believe Jesus is involved in this movement? I was a bit dismayed but what I heard and the churches around me are late getting into the game... Judy == On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 09:29:48 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Kevin: Can't we start focusing on the truth and just let the Mormons do what they want to do? I can't see that spending so much time and effort looking into the details of what they believe and how they practice it is glorifying to the Lord. What is the purpose? Judy From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] There seems to be some confusion about who controls BYU..
[TruthTalk] Original sin
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] David Miller wrote: I believe that the sin nature within us is simply a drive towards selfishness, which is a drive toward sin. However, if one resists this sin nature, he would be blameless. Judy wrote: I don't think so because death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those who had not sinned (Romans 5:14) DavidM: Careful. The text here does not say, over those who had not sinned, but rather have not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Judy: I should have completed the verse however this does not change its meaning. We are told by the prophet that Adam wilfully transgressed the covenant he had with God (see Hosea 6:7) and then rather than repent he tried to hide it (Job 31:33) which is the sinful nature bearing fruit immediately and this is the inheritance he left us, the one we are born into this world with. We don't have to transgress the original Covenant because Adam did it for us. DavidM: Two verses earlier, the text clearly indicates that all had indeed sinned, even though it was a different kind of sin. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED: (Romans 5:12 KJV). Judy: Yes we all have sinned and sin is sin no matter what kind it is; we are all born with an attitude and it doesn't take very long for it to manifest. DavidM: Ezekiel 18 balances the teaching that God visits the iniquity of the parents upon the children with the teaching that each person will bear their own sin. Judy: In Ezekiel 18 God is speaking of repenting of personal responsibility for sin but he is not negating His Law given in Exodus 20:5; and when Israel returned from the Babylonian captivity 68 years after Ezekiel 18 and the book of the law was found - Ezra read God's law to the people whereupon they wept, were willing to put away their foreign wives and Nehemiah led them in repenting for the iniquity of their fathers (Nehemiah 9:2) because they realized they had also been walking in it. DavidM, Consider: The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:20 KJV). It seems to me that we cannot ascribe blame and guilt until sin is actually committed. What do you think? Judy: I think that heaven and earth will pass away before one jot or tittle of the law fails and that unless we have parents who walked in total righteousness before God we inherited and have been trained in their iniquity as well as that of the first Adam. This is why Abraham was called out of Ur and told to leave his family behind. I think that Ezekiel 18 is a call to repentance and not a revision or change in the status quo. Judy wrote: and there is no power in our flesh to overcome the sin that indwells us. DavidM: True, no power in our flesh, but there is power in the Spirit. Judy: Only when we exercise spiritual discernment and walk after the Spirit - but old covenant people had no indwelling Spirit. Judy wrote: He was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin and look at how James describes the process of sinning. We sin when we follow the lust residing in our own heart (which is the sin indwelling us through Adam's fall) (see James 3:6-18). DavidM: Right, which would also apply to Jesus if he was a man. Judy: Only if he was a man with Adam's blood coursing through his veins which would impart Adam's iniquity and disqualify him as a sacrifice for our sin. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Fw: RE: [TruthTalk] fyi~g :: 'Tucked Behind the Home Page, a Call to Worship'
It most certainly is... This is part of a new movement which is Re-Inventing the Church It is known as the 'Church Growth Movement' and centered around Saddleback Church in California (BTW where is Corona? Is it in Canada or California?) Not that it matters as this phenomonen is worldwide and pastors come to the CA seminars from all over the world. I recently visited several Churches in our area and they were ALL getting involved in this program. IMO it is part of the 'Great Falling Away' that is prophesied for the end times. Anyone interested in learning more about the movement and the philosophy behind it can find it at the following website: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose.htm Judy From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Very interesting, G. A local church we used to attend is going quite secular in appearance and presentation...to the point that they spent 14 million building an area on their property that resembles a mini-mall, with stores, cafes, restaurants.The church website is http://www.crossroadschurch.com. It has a few links to articles in the local paper about the un-christian nature of the new development. One of the articles starts out like this... - Circle of Light Newer Inland churches don't look like houses of worship: Some have or plan 3,500-seat auditoriums, cafes, water parks, stores 12:14 AM PDT on Monday, September 1, 2003 By MELANIE C. JOHNSON / The Press-Enterprise CORONA - Virtually nothing about Crossroads Christian Church's new digs say house of worship. And that is what planners of the $14 million Circle of Light project said they intended, in part. The faux cobblestone walkways, geometrically shaped multicolored architecture, and bubbling mini-waterfall fountain -- which officially opened Sunday -- make it look like some of the new-fangled pedestrian-friendly shopping centers springing up in Orange and Los Angeles counties. --- I feel that when the church begins to try to emulate the world, it ceases to be a church...this is why my wife and I left this church. When they showed a virtual reality video during the service of what the development would look like, and above the entrance were large letters that said Plaza del Sol, I knew which way they were headed and we decided not to be a part of it. They also sponsor this website...http://www.xxxchurch.com ...it is an outreach to men (and women, I guess) that are addicted to pornography. What do you (and other TT'rs) think about this? Are they on the right track to bringing glory to God and winning sould for the Kingdom? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] fyi~g :: 'Tucked Behind the Home Page, a Call to Worship' Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 05:58:01 -0700 January 31, 2004 By JOHN LELAND http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/31/national/31EVAN.html?ex=1076553259ei= 1 en=23540f276c314a2d When Doug Reese put up his Web site, he felt he was answering a call. A college wrestling coach with a long involvement in Christian youth ministries, he wanted to spread a Christian message to people who were not getting it. Instead of working through his Methodist church, he created a site with no overtly religious images or affiliation, and articles about weight lifting, nutrition and profiles of athletes. Only after users click a few links do they start to see biblical passages or the religious testimonials of the athletes. I wanted it to look like a sports magazine, said Mr. Reese, who coaches at the University of Minnesota at Morris and hopes to turn his three-year-old site into a full-time ministry. It's a little covert. I know that religion or Christianity is a turn-off with a great part of the population. I didn't want to shove it in people's faces. Mr. Reese and his Web site, www.tothenextlevel.org, embody an increasingly popular strategy for evangelism in the Internet age. In the segmented realms of the Web, said Tony Whitaker, editor of a guide for online evangelists, sites that use overtly Christian material will reach only people who are already Christians, while everyone else can click by. Unlike Christian radio or television, the new medium calls not for powerful religious symbolism or rhetoric but for the absence of them, he said. You're not trying to trick people, Mr. Whitaker said. You can't appear to be something you're not. But Christians should legitimately appear to be taking a starting point on a subject that doesn't appear to be religious. A report released in December by the Pew Internet and American Life Project estimated that by December 2002, 35 million Americans had searched for religious or spiritual information online, compared with 36 million who had downloaded music files. Until recently, if someone typed god into a search engine, it retrieved as many sites as typing in sex, said Quentin J. Schultze, a professor of
[TruthTalk] fyi~g :: 'Tucked Behind the Home Page, a Call to Worship'
What was your impression then Charles? Do you believe Jesus is involved in this movement? I was a bit dismayed but what I heard and the churches around me are late getting into the game... Judy From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy, Corona, California, is 45 M. ESE of LA in Riverside County. The pastor of Crossroas Church in Corona (California) is Barry McMurtrie. He is a biggie in the church growth moverment, and frequently is a speaker and presenter at church growth conferences around the world. We attended Saddleback once with some of our friends (it is about 30 minutes away by freeway) and completed 40 days of purpose in a small group a year ago facilitated by those same friends. Perry From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fw: RE: [TruthTalk] fyi~g :: 'Tucked Behind the Home Page, a Call to Worship' Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:10:38 -0500 It most certainly is... This is part of a new movement which is Re-Inventing the Church It is known as the 'Church Growth Movement' and centered around Saddleback Church in California (BTW where is Corona? Is it in Canada or California?) Not that it matters as this phenomonen is worldwide and pastors come to the CA seminars from all over the world. I recently visited several Churches in our area and they were ALL getting involved in this program. IMO it is part of the 'Great Falling Away' that is prophesied for the end times. Anyone interested in learning more about the movement and the philosophy behind it can find it at the following website: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose.htm Judy From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Very interesting, G. A local church we used to attend is going quite secular in appearance and presentation...to the point that they spent 14 million building an area on their property that resembles a mini-mall, with stores, cafes, restaurants.The church website is http://www.crossroadschurch.com. It has a few links to articles in the local paper about the un-christian nature of the new development. One of the articles starts out like this... - Circle of Light Newer Inland churches don't look like houses of worship: Some have or plan 3,500-seat auditoriums, cafes, water parks, stores 12:14 AM PDT on Monday, September 1, 2003 By MELANIE C. JOHNSON / The Press-Enterprise CORONA - Virtually nothing about Crossroads Christian Church's new digs say house of worship. And that is what planners of the $14 million Circle of Light project said they intended, in part. The faux cobblestone walkways, geometrically shaped multicolored architecture, and bubbling mini-waterfall fountain -- which officially opened Sunday -- make it look like some of the new-fangled pedestrian-friendly shopping centers springing up in Orange and Los Angeles counties. --- I feel that when the church begins to try to emulate the world, it ceases to be a church...this is why my wife and I left this church. When they showed a virtual reality video during the service of what the development would look like, and above the entrance were large letters that said Plaza del Sol, I knew which way they were headed and we decided not to be a part of it. They also sponsor this website...http://www.xxxchurch.com ...it is an outreach to men (and women, I guess) that are addicted to pornography. What do you (and other TT'rs) think about this? Are they on the right track to bringing glory to God and winning sould for the Kingdom? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] fyi~g :: 'Tucked Behind the Home Page, a Call to Worship' Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 05:58:01 -0700 January 31, 2004 By JOHN LELAND http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/31/national/31EVAN.html?ex=1076553259ei= 1 en=23540f276c314a2d When Doug Reese put up his Web site, he felt he was answering a call. A college wrestling coach with a long involvement in Christian youth ministries, he wanted to spread a Christian message to people who were not getting it. Instead of working through his Methodist church, he created a site with no overtly religious images or affiliation, and articles about weight lifting, nutrition and profiles of athletes. Only after users click a few links do they start to see biblical passages or the religious testimonials of the athletes. I wanted it to look like a sports magazine, said Mr. Reese, who coaches at the University of Minnesota at Morris and hopes to turn his three-year-old site into a full-time ministry. It's a little covert. I know that religion or Christianity is a turn-off with a great part of the population. I didn't want to shove it in people's faces. Mr. Reese and his Web site, www.tothenextlevel.org, embody an increasingly popular strategy for evangelism in the Internet age. In the segmented realms of the
[TruthTalk] The Atonement
From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: There could not have been an atonement if Jesus had the blood of Adam coursing through his veins because then he would have been born in sin and he would have had a sin nature like the rest of us and this would have disqualified him because the sacrifice had to be a male who was perfect and without blemish. Scripture teaches that "he was made sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Cor 5:21). DavidM: We may have some deeper differences than atonement that concerns the sin nature and how it effects us. I do not believe that the sin nature in itself makes us guilty before God. I believe that the sin nature within us is simply a drive towards selfishness, which is a drive toward sin. However, if one resists this sin nature, he would be blameless. Judy: I don't think so becausedeath reigned from Adam to Moses even over those who had not sinned (Romans 5:14) and there is no power in ourflesh to overcome the "sin that indwells us". David: The Scriptures actually call some men blameless, such as Job, so I don't follow you on how Jesus must be distinct from the Adamic race in order to be a blameless sacrifice. Judy: Job may have been walking in all the light he had at that time but he was not 'righteous' before God and he knew it. Job asks "how can a man be right before God?" and he speaks of having a Daysman (someone to plead his case with God Job 9:33-35). Later Job prophesies"I know that my redeemer lives and that he shall stand in the latter day upon the earth" (Job 19:25). David also has the same awareness. He prays in Psalm 143:2 "Enter not into judgment with thy servant, for in thy sight shall no man living be justified." DavidM: The Bible teaches that the life is in the blood, but from myperspective, that simply points out how the soul interfaces with the physical body. In the Hebrew, it literally reads that the soul is in the blood. It seems to me that if a lamb could be blameless and worthy of being a blood sacrifice, how much more could a human being who never sinned yet was descended from Adam be blameless and suitable for the ultimate sacrifice for mankind. Judy: All a lamb has is a soul. Men are spirit beings originally created in God'simageso the covering of sin with animal blood/skins was only a temporary measure;the animal kingdom were not created in God's image and they became involved in the fall through Adam's sin. The animals involved in the sacrificesare also victims who are not responsible before God and their blood whichwas shed on the day of atonement and at other feast timesonly covered sin for that year whereas the blood of Jesus shed once through the eternal spirit is able to remit sin once and for all. DavidM: Jesus knew no sin but he did know temptation. I have some Scriptures in mind, but no time to continue this right now. Maybe later. Judy: He was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin and look at how James describes the process of sinning. We sin when we follow the lust of our own heart (which is the sin that indwells us through Adam's fall) (see James 3:6-18). DavidM: If you care to comment on how you see the sin nature, maybe we will get closer to the difference in our basic assumptions that ultimately divides our understanding on this issue. To recap, I believe that Jesus had a sin nature in his flesh, because he was descended from Adam, but I do not believe that this sin nature was something that brought him guilt or defiled him. It was simply a drive of his flesh that was directed toward selfishness and so he experienced many of the same difficulties that we do when we are tempted and weakened by our bodies of flesh. Judy: Flesh is much more than a tendency to be selfish. The flesh is already defiled and if not dealt with it defiles others. Jeremiah the prophet wrote that "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9) and Jesus taught that what defiles the man isnot ethereal, it is what comes out of the heart ie: "evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." these are the things which defile a man (Matthew 15:18,19). DavidM: Oh yeah, the reason for the virgin birth? Only because it was a signgiven to king Ahaz by Isaiah. Signs of prophets served to bolster faithin those who believed the prophets. Judy: It was a prophecy and as such it is either true or it is false. I believe it is true and that there is a reason whether we understand it perfectly at the present time or not. I for one, am still learning. DavidM: I'm sure this sign bolstered Mary's faith quite a bit and gave her great assurance in raising Jesus. Some might think that Jesus was a perfect child that every mother would want, but just seeing his behavior at the Temple when he was twelve ought to clue us in that
[TruthTalk] To all TT's
I'm really sorry to hear this Dean; you will be missed. I like your zeal for the Lord and His Truth; also I have appreciated and enjoyed the special and unique way you have of expressing yourself at times. I'm glad to know you and your wife are in Asheville taking a stand for righteousness and I hope you will be back to TT in the not to distant future.. Richest in Christ, Judy From: Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To all the brethren : I have been asked to leave this site for breaking the Ad. Hom rules-to which I will comply. I realize that I should have smiled more and said nicer things more often-but feel that the issue at hand was a grave matter. To those brethren I offended-I offer my apologies. To those who are not brethren-Jesus Christ died so that you can have life and not death-choose wisely. Terry I will be praying for you and request prayer in return-I regret our last discussion most deeply and would be willing to speak privately on any occasion at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yours in Christ Dean Moore -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] The Incarnation of Christ
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] So your idea is that Jesus was created in the same condition as the first Adam? Here are some problems with this idea: 1. If Jesus was in the same condition as the first Adam BEFORE the fall, then having never sinned, Jesus would be immortal and incapable of being killed. Judy: He was incapable of being killed. When the Jews tried to stone Him he walked right through their midst. Noone took His life from Him. He willingly layed it down. DavidM: I certainly agree that Jesus laid down his life on his own, but if he was like Adam prior to the fall, I don't believe he could have done even that. Can God the Father be killed? Can angels lay down their lives and be killed? I don't think so. One must first be mortal before he can lay down his life for others. What Jesus walked in was the protection of Psalm 91. This psalm concerns those who dwell in the secret place of the Most High, who make the Lord their refuge and fortress, who abide under the shadow of the Almighty and trust in Him. Judy: Adam before the fall was not God and in fact he did lay down his life in reverse when he bought the lie, he died spiritually which led to mortality and physical death later. Angels are spirits but then so is man. The body is what dies, spirits are eternal. I don't agree that Jesus walked in Psalm 91 making the Lord his refuge and fortress because He is the Lord Yhovah, Yahh, Jah who the Psalmist refers to here. However, I do believe he layed aside the glory he had with the Father and that he walked in the Spirit totally and did not do or say anything that he did not first receive from the Father. David Miller wrote: 2. The Scriptures teach that Jesus was of the seed of Abraham and of the seed of David (Heb. 2:16, 2 Tim. 2:8, John 7:42, Romans 1:3). This would not be true if Jesus was created de nouveau as a unique creature. Judy: The word seed in scripture #4060 in Strongs comes from the Greek word sperma (the male sperm) and we know there was no male sperm involved in the birth of Jesus. He was 'born of the woman' and fathered by God. DavidM: As with our discussions on women and feminism. Judy: I don't ever recall discussing 'feminism' with you David. I am against this movement as much as I am against men dominating and subjugating women. I believe the scriptures teach that God created man and woman to be team players and joint heirs of the grace of God. DavidM: ...you seem to have a penchant for explaining away the meaning of Scriptures as if they were spoken as opinion by someone else. I know you deny this, but it constantly appears that way to me. This is another case in point. The Scriptures say that Jesus WAS of the seed of Abraham and David, but you argue that seed means male sperm and there was no male sperm involved in the birth of Jesus. You leave us with skepticism and disbelief in the Scriptures because the Scriptures do say that he was born of their seed. Judy: OK, we need to pray for understanding as to what the one who inspsired the scriptures means rather than add our own interpretation. Basically the Bible is a spiritual book. God is Spirit and satan is spirit - so wouldn't their seed be spiritual rather than genetic. When God spoke in Genesis 3 about seed no children had been born genetically. Romans 9 tells us that they are not all Israel which are of Israel - because they are the (natural) seed of Abraham does not make them all children; but in Isaac Gods seed shall be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh are not the children of God but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Get that? The seed are spiritual seed rather than genetic. DavidM: Some Mormons try to say that God provided the sperm, either directly through physical copulation with Mary, or through some artificial means. I suppose God could have even taken some of Joseph's sperm and artificially inseminated Mary, or he may have provided his own genetically engineered sperm. Alternatively, he may have simply modified Mary's genetic material directly and created Jesus through some method of parthenogenesis. While I don't know exactly how God did it, I do believe the Scriptures that say he was of the seed of Abraham and of the seed of David. Genesis 3:15 also tells us that Jesus was of the seed of Eve: Judy: I'd prefer to skip the Mormon speculations. Since they are not born of the spirit naturally they see everything in the natural and so this is of no benefit here. DavidM: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Genesis 3:15 KJV) Now based upon my understanding of genetics, this is all very easy to understand. The genetic material of Eve, Abraham, and David all existed within Mary because she was descended from them. The sperm of Abraham contained genetic material which was passed on to his progeny, and the sperm of
[TruthTalk] The Atonement
DavidM: Perhaps you can explain your understanding of atonement more for us because I don't understand how the atonement has any meaning if the blood of Jesus was not like the rest of us, neither do I understand the meaning of Christ's moral uprightness if he did not share the same weak flesh as the rest of us. Is there any Bible verse anywhere that has taught you that in order for Jesus to sanctify us his blood had to be unlike our own? Judy: There could not have been an atonement if Jesus had the blood of Adam coursing through his veins because then he would have been born in sin and he would have had a sin nature like the rest of us and this would have disqualified him because the sacrifice had to be a male who was perfect and without blemish. Scripture teaches that he was made sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:21). Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] The Incarnation of Christ
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: why can't he be the same species as the first Adam before the fall and when faced with the same temptations overcome leading to life and hope for the rest of us rather than fall into sin and disobedience So your idea is that Jesus was created in the same condition as the first Adam? Here are some problems with this idea: 1. If Jesus was in the same condition as the first Adam BEFORE the fall, then having never sinned, Jesus would be immortal and incapable of being killed. Judy: He was incapable of being killed. When the Jews tried to stone Him he walked right through their midst. Noone took His life from Him. He willingly layed it down. 2. The Scriptures teach that Jesus was of the seed of Abraham and of the seed of David (Heb. 2:16, 2 Tim. 2:8, John 7:42, Romans 1:3). This would not be true if Jesus was created de nouveau as a unique creature. Judy: The word seed in scripture #4060 in Strongs comes from the Greek word sperma (the male sperm) and we know there was no male sperm involved in the birth of Jesus. He was 'born of the woman' and fathered by God. 3. If Jesus was as you suggest, he would be genetically perfect and beautiful, without moles, freckles, or genetic mutations of any kind. The Scriptures indicate that Jesus physically was not more beautiful or desirable than other men. For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him (Isaiah 53:2 KJV). Furthermore, the Scriptures are suggestive that in his resurrected state, his physical appearance was somewhat different (Luke 24:31-32, John 21:12). Judy: I wouldn't think his physical appearance would have much to do with anything the genetic effect of sin has a debilitating effect on the human body much worse than moles and freckles. 4. If Jesus was made in a unique un-fallen state, this would lead us to think that perhaps he should start a new race of people through physical reproduction. He did not do this. Instead, it appears that he was made with the same flesh as the rest of us, so that those who would believe upon him would be delivered spiritually immediately with the hope of a physical salvation to come later through the resurrection. Judy: It's not our flesh he came to redeem; He died on the cross and paid the price for our redemption so that we could be born of the Spirit, and led by the Spirit becoming part of a new creation. a spiritual priesthood zealous of good works. 5. If Jesus was not like the rest of us, then his resurrection from the dead is not really a firstfruits from among men (1 Cor. 15:20-23). Without my being physically descended from him, his resurrection would have no impact upon the idea that I might be resurrected. On the other hand, knowing that he had the same flesh as me and was just as much a man as I am, then I have confidence in his promise that I too will be resurrected just like he was. Judy: It is the firstfruits from among men because without his death, burial and resurrection there would be no new creation and the body we now live in will not go to heaven, we receive a transformed body. The reason Jesus could not have the same flesh as us is because the life of the flesh is in the blood. He would not have been fit to be the sacrifice with Adamic blood running through his veins. His blood had to be pure, holy, precious. His blood cleanses the consciences and washes white as snow. All other blood defiles. Grace adn Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just quoted the passage. It explains the suffering of Christ in human terms. He endured the cross, endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, resisted unto the shedding of blood. Judy: Yes he resisted sinners and sin that was coming at him and he learned obedience by the things he suffered, ie: He learned about waiting on the Lord and doing the will of the Father even when the cup he had to drink was abhorrent to Him. DavidM: The author then compares him to his readers, YE HAVE NOT YET RESISTED UNTO BLOOD, STRIVING AGAINST SIN. The point is that we should be encouraged by thinking about how Jesus resisted sin and endured contradictions against him so that we maintain our own integrity as we strive against sin. Judy: There is a difference much of the time in where the sin comes from. We must deal with our own hearts which too many times is where the sin oppresses us. Jesus did not have this problem. DavidM: Furthermore, the Scriptures say: Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. (Hebrews 5:7-9 KJV) Little children, let no man deceive you: HE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. (1 John 3:7 KJV) Judy: Yes, He did leave us an example that we should follow in His steps because all who have received Him have been born of the Spirit. The first Adam became a living soul The second Adam a life giving spirit. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] new revelation
From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is this a new revelation or old hat? I am very interested to know the answer to this.Did you GENTILE TTers know you were considered "ridiculous" before or did you just find this out? Judy: Kevin you need to learn the difference between the ad homenim and someone's opinion. This nephew is calling the Baptist pastor's belief 'ridiculous' not the man himself. You do the exact same thing to DaveH and Blaine all the time. You must spend a lot of timestudying the Mormon material that youpost on TT toshow how contradictory and ridiculous itis to you. So tell me - what's the difference?? Makes no differenceto me that the Mormons call me a Gentile. According to God's WordI am a Gentile, washed in the blood of the lamb... whose name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. JudyKevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Read the post, you just missed it, no big deal on this. I hope you do not miss it when it really matters! DAVEH: Note to some of the old TTersJeff has been gone from TTsome 20 ! months now, but he still refers to TT in some of his posts tohis Mom (who transcribes them for email distribution). Here is anexcerpt from his latest letter home that I thought some of you mightfind interesting I have tracted through the area a couple times since I got here. Andit is tough. A lot of apathy. Everybody isCatholic or Baptist. We tracted into a Baptist preacher last week. Heliked us, but of course we are a cult. Well anyway heinvited us to this Bible study. We watched him preach, then went intothe (illegible word), and he tried to bash with us. I havecome to new conclusions. The things he was saying were more ridiculousthan ANYTHING I ever heard on Truth Talk. I am sograteful that we are not being led by the blind. Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 7:14 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Courtesy of My Nephew Jeff I am very interested to know the answer to this.Did you GENTILE TTers know you were considered "ridiculous" before or did you just find this out? Blaine: Who called anyone rediculous, Kevin?Did you imagine this? Are you going paranoid psycho on us? Maybe I missed something--DaveH and I are the only two Mormons I know of, and I know neither of us has said anything about anyone being rediculous. LDS Modus Operandi: Pretend to be loving and sincere, but when among your own, Mock and Sneer. Image is everything. School spokesman Duff Tittle told the Salt Lake Tribune the photo had been altered because tattoos (along with smoking, drinking and premarital sex) violate the Mormon school's rules. "We have touched up photos for years -- as far as removing tattoos, covering up bellybuttons, just things like that," Tittle says. http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Jan/01142004/utah/128942.asp Blaine: Mr. Tittle offers a perfectly good reason for covering up the tatoos and etc. He says, "it's easier to doctor photos than deal with irate callers demanding to know why athletes are being immodest or wearing tattoos that many Latter-day Saints deem offensive or a violation of church standards." Having been a teacher,I know if a standard is set for a certain behavior, and a popular person models the breaking of the standard, others are more likely to follow. In Psychology, it is called"imitative learning," sometimes referred to as "social learning,"and is a major source of learned behaviors in students of all ages. Summed up, it says, "Monkey see, monkey do." Generally, the more popular the person, the more likely others will follow his/her lead. Athletes, of course, are popular almost by default. Mayor outlines program to repair the rift among Mormons and others living in Salt Lake http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Jan/01142004/utah/128949.aspGroupthink is the excuse http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/47372 "This is what happens when you leave the church" and "You're a traitor to your religion." http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/47356 http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/47264 Devotionaladdresses the disturbing comments and reactions http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/47296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Dave:I find it interesting that your nephew is stuck on the same question as you and what does the _expression_ "tracted into" mean?The apathy does not surprise me; nor does the confusion concerning"truth" because there is massive Bible illiteracy out there
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of My Nephew Jeff
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Dave:I find it interesting that your nephew is stuck on the same questionas you DAVEH: I think most LDS folks are curious to know how Protestants understand God's creation of Lucifer, the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the relationship they have with the plan of salvation. From our perspective, those things are very important to our eternal progression. From what I am hearing from TTers, it seems most Protestants believe Adam's fall was an unfortunate incident that has caused a lot of grief for everybody. That is diametrically opposite of my belief. Judy: In all the years I've been around believers I've never heard anyone agonizing over the fall. I accept it as having taken place before I was born. I can't do much about them but God has made a way for me to do something about me and since Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world, God took care of things before they happened. What do you mean by "eternal progression"and what does the _expression_ "tracted into" mean? DAVEH: Tracting is our _expression_ for knocking on doors cold turkey style. Judy: Thanks - I've learned a new _expression_. ActuallyThe apathy does not surprise me; nor does the confusion concerning"truth" because there is massive Bible illiteracy out there even amongthose in leadership positions in nominal Churches. Have you seen anyBarna polls on this? DAVEH: No. But I can give you a personal example. I was tracting in a new area and met a lady who brushed us off with saying that she attended the church just down the street a block or so. Being new in the area, I was curious as to which church she belonged to, and asked her what religion it was. Her reply was, "I forgot." H..I think that qualifies as an example of apathy, eh! Judy: She may have been lying to you. Some people are probably uncomfortable or distracted and don't want to take the time to think about these things. Just about everyone in the US or more than 80% according to some polls will tell you they are Christian.How is your nephew so certain he is not being led by the blind? If he is being led by anyone other than the voice of the Chief Shepherd, then he is being led by the blind. DAVEH: I'll let Jeff speak for himself when he returns this summer, as I suspect he will join TT again and you can ask him personally. Judy: Hashe been born again by the Spirit of God and is he a follower of theresurrected Christ? One who walks after the Spirit daily or is he justanother follower of Joseph Smith and his BofM? You don't have to answer the above ... because if that were true he would not be a Mormonmissionary who is out there tracting. Judy
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of My Nephew Jeff
Hi Kevin Perry: DavidH's nephew Jeff wrote, and DavidH posted:"The things he was saying were more rediculous than ANYTHING I ever heard on Truth Talk."The Bible explains it:1 Corinthians 2:14 - "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."Judy: I don't know that the above applies here... think about the ONE thing the newphew tells us that he said: + Well anyway he invited us to this Bible study. We watched him preach, then went into the (..), and he tried to bash with us. I have come to new conclusions. The things he was saying were more ridiculousthan ANYTHING I ever heard on Truth Talk. I am so grateful that we are not being led by the blind. This is one thing he said.I asked him, "Why would God create somebody to send them to Hell? Did he know that?Him: Of course. God is Holy, He is just. He knows everything. That person was CREATED to give Him glory by going to Hell.me: How's that???Him: By proving that God is just. . .Send that to Dave. . . See what he thinks. ++ Judy: I don't see that the above is spiritual at all, that pastor would have been better of saying that he didn't know. What he did say sounds more like Calvinism than Bible to me and IMO this is why cults have so much success out there. People who profess Christ don't know enough of what His Word says to give an answer for the hope that is in them. It's not our place to judge who is or who is not going to HELL. The scriptures teach that it is not God's will for ANY to perish. He would that all come to the knowledge of Truth even though in His omnipotence He knows they won't and He does not rejoice when the wicked die... so how does this bring Him glory? This just adds to the confusion out there. Judy
[TruthTalk] new revelation
Dean writes: I was here when Jeff was and when pressed He admitted to putting the BofM over the Bible-then tried to retract that statement- and of course he stated: I am only here to learn what protestants believe. He came here to learn how to defeat street preachers just before he was sent to N. Orleans. David Miller was warned-by me- of this at that time and ignore the warning-so Jeff was allowed to stay on-now street preachers have to deal with him... Judy: Well that's not all bad Dean, it will keep you guys on your toes. Dean: As concerning the Pastors answer to Jeff-consider: Romans 9:20-29 V. 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay,of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? 22. What if God ,willing to shew his wrath., and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: In short the Pastor was correct.God said that he had that right-would any here say He doesn't? Judy: In Romans 9 before making the above statement Paul refers to Esau and Pharoah both of whom rejected God before he rejected them. Esau by selling the birthright for a mess of pottage and the Pharoah? How many chances to change his mind did God give that Pharoah? The wisdom of God says I love them that love me, and those that seek me early shall find me (Proverbs 8:17). Whereas John Calvin taught that God created some people who he predestined for heaven and some who are predestined for hell. Scripture teaches that vessels of wrath who are fitted for destruction have come to this juncture through their own ungodly choices. V.15 For he saith to Moses. I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I WILL HAVE MERCY,AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I WILL HAVE COMPASSION. Judy: Paul here quotes Exodus 33:19 where God is telling Moses that he has found grace in His sight and Moses is interceding and asking God to go with them Dean: Kinda goes against the grain of the God loves everyone camp huh? Judy: I don't think so... God did and does love everyone enough to make provision so that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved even before the foundation of the world, we don't have to be blotted out of His book. Dean: Would this not go into the area that God called those whom he knew would answer and repent? Judy: God calls everyone. Many are called but few are chosen The chosen are those who overcome by His grace. Stait is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Adding/Diminishing the Word of Truth
We are forbidden to add or to take away from what is written ie: ++ Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you observe to do it, thou shall not add thereto, nor diminish from it. Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words lest he reprove thee and thou be found to be a liar. (incidentally liars don't inherit the Kingdom) Revelation 22:18,19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book. If any man shall add unto these things God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book; and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. + Grace and Peace, Judy
RE: [TruthTalk] new revelation
Dean writes:I was here when Jeff was and when pressed He admitted to putting the BofM over the Bible-then tried to retract that statement- and of course he stated: I am only here to learn what protestants believe. He came here to learn how to defeat street preachers just before he was sent to N. Orleans. David Miller was warned-by me- of this at that time and ignore the warning-so Jeff was allowed to stay on-now street preachers have to deal with him... Judy:Well that's not all bad Dean, it will keep you guys on your toes. Dean writes:If you were the on who has to answer these guided questions in front ofhundreds of lost people then you might be persuaded to have a syntheticheart toward those who do. Consider a young preacher trying to lead thelost to Christ and DaveH comes alone to ask the questions? Judy: Even if DavidM banned the Mormons from the TT List they could still come to outdoor meetings and harrass the SP's; can't you just tell the person you will meet with them privately later? That is, if they are causing an embarrassment. Dean:As concerning the "Pastors" answer to Jeff-consider: Romans 9:20-29V. 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay,of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?22. What if God ,willing to shew his wrath., and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction In short the Pastor was correct. God said that he had that right-wouldany here say He doesn't? Judy: He can do anything He wants to but it would be out of character.In Romans 9 before he makes the above statement Paul refers to Esauand Pharoah both of whom rejected God prior to his rejecting them. Esau by selling the birthright for a mess of pottage and the Pharoah by his double-mindedness. How many chances to change his mind did God give that Pharoah? Dean writes:True-but when fear of God came upon the Pharaoh-what did God do? He hardened his heart due to the fact Pharaoh went to far into sin- as many do today. Judy: I don't believe the fear of God ever did come upon that Pharoah because the "fear of God is to hate evil" and Pharoah never got that far. He was opportunistic and he would agree with Moses for a short time and then change his mind and go back to the way it was. He did that one time too many and at some point God hardened his heart so that he could no longer repent. Repentance is a gift. Dean: In verse 23 it states: What if God ,willing to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction v.23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,which he had prepared unto glory. Judy: He endured with much long suffering the Canaanite nations making Israel wait until the iniquity of the Amorites was full before he allowed them to be destroyed. Same with Nineveh when he sent Jonah to preach to them. They repented and got a reprieve and then later went back to their old ways and were destroyed. Dean: So then to punish sinners in hell-whom he foreknew would go to hell-allows God to show His Glory by the mercy He has giving the saints? So to put someone into hell is to show His glory. Judy: This, to me, is convoluted thinking Dean and I don't see it in scripture. It has got to be some man's doctrine and off the top of my head I would say it is John Calvin. Dean: God's love was no longer available to Pharaoh nor Esau-and wouldn't God know this from the beginning? Yet without act the committing of the crime there is no punishment for the crime-God knew they would commit the crime-sent them here-and they in fact committed the crime. Judy: Then by the same reasoning are you agreeing with the Mormons that God put AE in the garden knowing that they would fall and that they fell for His glory? Dean: I believe the love of God was available to them at one time-but He knew they would not accept that love-hence a vessel fitted to destruction. Note: God also demonstrated his power/glory by the plaques He sent upon Egypt. Judy: What about the plagues that are on the Church right now, do they also demonstrate God's power and glory? I wrote: The wisdom of God says "I love them that love me, and those thatseek me early shall find me" (Proverbs 8:17). Whereas John Calvin taught that God created some people to be predestined for heaven and some to be predestined for hell. Dean writes:I do not agree with J. Calvin as the sin must be committed before the punishment and that Jesus died for all people- even Esau/Pharoah. Calvin would condemn them before they even committed sin-but God alone decides when to turn someone over to a depraved mind (reprobate Romans 1-28).So yes it would be best to seek Him early.Judy:Scripture teaches that vessels of wrath who are fitted for destructionhave come to this juncture through their own ungodly choices. V.15For he saith to Moses. I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of My Nephew Jeff
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy: I find it interesting that your nephew is stuck on the same question as you. DAVEH:I think most LDS folks are curious to know how Protestants understand God's creation of Lucifer, the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the relationship they have with the plan of salvation. From our perspective, those things are very important to our eternal progression. From what I am hearing from TTers, it seems most Protestants believe Adam's fall was an unfortunate incident that has caused a lot of grief for everybody. That is diametrically opposite of my belief. Judy:In all the years I've been around believers I've never heard anyone agonizing over the fall. I accept it as having taken place before I was born. DAVEH: But.you do prefer that it had not happened, do you not? Judy: Makes no difference what I prefer and TTYTT I don't even think about it in those terms. It did happen and now I must deal with the reality. I can't do much about them but God has made a way for me todo something about me and since Jesus is the lamb slain before thefoundation of the world, God took care of things before they happened. What do you mean by "eternal progression?" DAVEH: Eternal progression is the evolution from our spiritual birth to eventually becoming one with God, and like God. To do that, I believe it was necessary for the fall of Adam to take place, and the grace of the Lord to provide a pathway to salvation. Judy: Why was it necessary? God created man in His own image so if there had been no fall there would be no need for any eternal progression? and what does the _expression_"tracted into" mean? DAVEH: Knocking on doors until you tract into a situation that is a bit unusual.I'll let Jeff speak for himself when he returns this summer, as I suspect he will join TT again and you can ask him personally. Judy:Has he been born again by the Spirit of God and is he a follower of the resurrected Christ? One who walks after the Spirit daily or is he just another follower of Joseph Smith and his BofM? You don't have to answer the above ... because if that were true he would not be a Mormon missionary who is out there tracting. DAVEH: LOLOhh Judy, aren't you cheeky! Judy: Cheeky? Why would you use that word?
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of My Nephew Jeff
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy:In all the years I've been around believers I've never heard anyoneagonizing over the fall. I accept it as having taken place before I was born. DAVEH: But.you do prefer that it had not happened, do you not? Judy:Makes no difference what I prefer and TTYTT I don't even think about itin those terms. It did happen and now I must deal with the reality. I can't do much about them but God has made a way for me to do somethingabout me and since Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world, God took care of things before they happened. DAVEH: My point exactly.God knew all that which would happen, which is why he put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and allowed Satan to influence Eve. IMHO, it was all a necessary part of his plans for us. There was nothing unexpected or unplanned about the fall of Adam.it was engineered by God from before the foundations of the world. Judy: The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not good DAVEH. The tree of life is good. Why do you make God the perpetrater of evil when His Word says that He can not be tempted with evil, neither does He tempt any man? DAVEH: And, it was done so specifically for our benefit..Which is why I (and Jeff) find the pastors comment about God creating people to burn in hell simply to glorify Himself to be so ridiculous. Judy: I don't go along with that pastor's comment and I believe it to be Calvinism rather than Bible. However, neither do I believe that God engineered the fall of man. DAVEH: Now that Dean has apparently said he subscribes to such a revolting idea, perhaps Jeff has not found anything more ridiculous in Louisiana than what can be found in TT. Judy: What do you mean byeternal progression? DAVEH: Eternal progression is the evolution from our spiritual birth to eventually becoming one with God, and like God. To do that, I believeit was necessary for the fall of Adam to take place, and the grace of theLord to provide a pathway to salvation. Judy:Why was it necessary? God created man in His own image so if there had been no fall there would be no need for any eternal progression? DAVEH: We were not created as God. We were created to become like God. We cannot do that without both a knowledge of good and evil nor without a physical body. Judy: Before the fall Adam was created in God's image which is as good as it gets. God is Spirit, Adam was primarily a 'spirit being' God did not have a body until Jesus received one at the incarnation. DAVEH: Eternal progression is necessary to bring us from a point of innocence in our spiritual creation, to a point where we have an eternally physical body and a knowledge of good and evil. However, it is impossible to be spotless as is God, without having first having the stain of our sins removed by the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Once that happens, then we can become one with God. Judy: How is this stain removed DAVEH. IOW how does this grace work in your life? Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Geography of Never Never land
Blaine and DaveH: What say ye about all of this? Who is the great nation referred to in your holy writ? This has nothing at all to do with the resurrected Christ because these names have no part in His genealogy. To me it all soundslike the kind of fables referred to in 1 Timothy 1:4: "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies which minister questions rather than godly edifying which is in faith - so do" along with 2 Timothy 4:3,4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears; and they shall turn away from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Actually I can see why men who are walking after the flesh would like your religion; it caters to the male ego and the women are subjugated. I was just reading an excerpt from a book called The Mormon Mirage written by Latayne Scott and reflecting on the role of women in Mormonism - from her own experience she writes: "I was once sitting in a Relief Society meeting when the speaker made an attention-getting remark. In explaining the relationship of husband and wife she said "Women are the doormats upon which men wipe their feet before going in to God" ... she continues "I was stunned. I looked open mouthed at my friends in the room. Surely someone else was as outraged about this as I - but all around me young women were nodding in contemplation and agreement" Judy From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]NUMBER 1: Bible:Genesis 11:9 - Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. Contradicting BoM passages: Ether 1[33] Which Jared came forth with his brother and their families, with some others and their families, from the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the face of the earth; and according to the word of the Lord the people were scattered.[34] And the brother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not understand our words.[35] And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon Jared; therefore he did not confound the language of Jared; and Jared and his brother were not confounded.[36] Then Jared said unto his brother: Cry again unto the Lord, and it may be that he will turn away his anger from them who are our friends, that he confound not their language.[37] And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon their friends and their families also, that they were not confounded. The confounding of the language of "of all the earth", as described in Genesis, would have made Jared and his nameless brother and their friends' and families' trip to the new world impossible, so the author of the BoM had to "undo" the Word of God in order to not have a logical fallacy. Instead, they contradicted the bible to do this. NUMBER 2: Contradicting BoM passages: Ether 1[43] "And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me." Here, the Mormon god, speaking to Jared and his nameless brother, said "And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed." +++ Now, surely so great a nation (of which there is "none greater") would be known today. But, I know of no one who has ever heard of a Jaredite. There is neither historical nor archeological records of any such nation. Not only that, but the visions given to Nebuchadnezzar and interpreted by Daniel the prophet, indicated that there wold be 4 great kingdoms...the Babylonian, the Medo-Persion, the Greek, and the Roman. Now either God of the Bible made a terrible error and forgot about the Jaredites, or the BoM god lied, or never existed anyway. The bottom line...a fictional story with fictional characters. Oh, by the way, one does not have to drink a whole carton of milk to find out it is sour...usually one sip tells the whole story. Same with the BoM. one does not have to read the whole thing to find out it is false. Once one finds a few blatent plaigerisms of and contradictions to the Bible, there is no need to continue to waste any more time with it. Perry
[TruthTalk] Courtesy of My Nephew Jeff
Hi Dave: I find it interesting that your nephew is stuck on the same question as you and what does the expression tracted into mean? The apathy does not surprise me; nor does the confusion concerning truth because there is massive Bible illiteracy out there even among those in leadership positions in nominal Churches. Have you seen any Barna polls on this? How is your nephew so certain he is not being led by the blind? Has he been born again by the Spirit of God and is he a follower of the resurrected Christ? One who walks after the Spirit daily or is he just another follower of Joseph Smith and his BofM? How sad and what a shame that Christians are so lethargic. Grace and Peace, Judy From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] DAVEH: Note to some of the old TTersJeff has been gone from TT some 20 months now, but he still refers to TT in some of his posts to his Mom (who transcribes them for email distribution). Here is an excerpt from his latest letter home that I thought some of you might find interesting + I have tracted through the area a couple times since I got here. And it is tough. A lot of apathy. Everybody is Catholic or Baptist. We tracted into a Baptist preacher last week. He liked us, but of course we are a cult. Well anyway he invited us to this Bible study. We watched him preach, then went into the (illegible word), and he tried to bash with us. I have come to new conclusions. The things he was saying were more ridiculous than ANYTHING I ever heard on Truth Talk. I am so grateful that we are not being led by the blind. This is one thing he said. I asked him, Why would God create somebody to send them to Hell? Did he know that? Him: Of course. God is Holy, He is just. He knows everything. That person was CREATED to give Him glory by going to Hell. me: How's that??? Him: By proving that God is just. . . Send that to Dave. . . See what he thinks. Well I am out of room. I gotta go. love, Jeff + -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Geography of Never Never land
From: "Blaine Borrowman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Kevin writes: Why are Greek names such as Lachoneus, Timothy, Jonas, and Alpha Omegain a book that should have absolutely no Greek influence? Blaine: The answer should be obvious, Kevn--the Book of Mormon wastranslated into English, which has a lot of Greek and even Latin in it. Why haven't any of the Book of Mormon proper names such as Nephi, Laman, Zarahemla, etc. been found in all of the many writings that have beenfound in Mesoamerica? Blaine: Again the answer should be obvious if you have read the Book ofMormon as you claim to have done--The entire Nephite civilization wasdestroyed by the Lamanites about 375 AD. The record says, in fact,that the Lamanites hunted down straggling Nephites, and if they would notdeny the Christ, they were killed. Moroni was one of the last to becaught and killed, but not before he buried the sacred records in theearth to hide them from the Lamanites. Otherwise, even the gold platesmight have been destroyed. The BoM does mention cultural traits of theLamanites which were still evident when the Spanish Conquistadorsarrived. One such evidence was the Lamanites were still sacrificingtheir enemy captives to their gods--huge piles of skulls of captivevictims were found near the sacrificial alters by the Spanish. Judy: Are these the Aztecs you are referring to, like Montezuma? They did have human sacrifice going on and they were pagans... but I've never heard of Nephites and Lamanites. Blaine: The Book of Mormon gives a similar account as the Lamanites closed in on the Nephites during their final days: Mormon 4: 14 "And they (Lamanites ). did take many prisoners both women and children, and did offer them up as sacrifices unto their idol gods." Mormon 4: 15 "And it came to pass, in the three hundred and sixty and seventh year, the Nephites being very angry because the Lamanites had sacrificed their women and children, . . . they did go forth against the Lamanites with exceeding great anger, insomuch they did beat again the Lamanites and drive them out of their lands." Mormon 5:21--"And when they (Lamanites) came the second time, theNephites were driven and slaughtered with an exceeding great slaughter;their women and children were again sacrificed unto idols.") Judy: Oh! So the story is that the unrighteous completely wiped out the supposedly righteous? Where was their god? Kevin: 3 Nephi uses Words from the KJV, such as "mammon", "synagogues", andAramaic word "raca" Matthew. These words would have had no meaning tothe Nephites! Blaine: Why not? The language of the golden plates was ReformedEgyptian, but the Book Mormon makes it clear that the Hebrew language wasalso spoken. Aramaic is a close cousin to Hebrew and was spoken by manyJews. Kevin: "Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, notfiction -- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope." Thomas Edison Blaine: Good thought. Maybe you really should get your facts starightbefore jumping to any more rash conclusions. (:) (snip "One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to recieve truth. Let it come from where it may." An American Prophets Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, p. 395 ...Galatians 4:6 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Judy: The perfect question right here would be Pilate's statement "What is Truth?" and this is the question each of us should ask ourselves. The way I see it, I can believe the Holy Spirit who inspired the writing of scripture or I can believe Joseph Smith who authoried the BofM. They cannot both be Truth because they are contradictory... and Galatians 4:6 definitely does not apply here. Paul was speaking truth - not one of his teachings conflict with the rest of scripture. Joseph Smith's teachings do fit with much of anything that I can see so far. Judy
[TruthTalk] Holy Hubert/Women
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] DAVEH: Hm...Were women considered kinsmen? I suppose it may be like mankind today.all encompassing. Judy: Of course, Paul calls other women fellow laborers in the gospel so I see no problem with the word 'kinsmen'. DAVEH: When I read vs 7, Judy, it merely seems as though they were in the company of the apostles, rather than equating them with the apostles. Judy: Probably because you have been trained to believe that women are not supposed to have these kinds of positions in the church from the time you were 8yrs old and possibly before that. DAVEH: Is your belief in this commonly accepted in Reformed theology? Judy: No, I'm not into different theologies and this thing about women permeates most of them anyway. Judy Judy wrote: Not only that but women were used in the early Church - from the scriptures themselves we can find deaconesses, teachers, evangelists, and apostles who were female DAVEH: ??? Where do we find female apostles in the Bible? Judy: Paul referred to a large number of servants of God, men and women, making no distinction of sex. He described Phebe as a ruler. He acknowledged Junia as an apostle, and distinguished her as "of note among the apostles" (Rom 16:7) John Chrysostom wrote in a Homily on Romans: "Indeed to be an apostle at all is a great thing. But to be even amongst these of note, just consider what a great econium this is. But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. Oh how great is the devotion of this woman that she should even be counted worthy of the appellation of Apostle." Grace and Peace, Judy -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
[TruthTalk] Geography of Never Never land
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: What exactly about the book of Mormon tells you it is true Blaine? What I can't figure out is why you would prefer that to the Holy Bible? Blaine writes: I have already answered this question once, but decided to answer it again, this time from a different angle: I have a book published by FARMS (Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies), titled Reexploring the book of Mormon: a Decade of Research, which has 85 chapters, all with separate evidences the Book of Mormon is reliable scripture. Judy: Can I safely assume that this Foundation is a Mormon one? If this is so then what makes you think it is unbiased research? Blaine: FARMS issued its first article in December, 1984. That article announced the discovery of domesticated barley in the Americas before Columbus. The book of Alma in the BoM says the Nephites raised barley. Prior to this discovery, critics of the BoM loved pointing out that the mention of barley as a Nephite crop was proof the BoM was false, because researchers had never found evidence of its existence in the Americas. It was thought to be exclusively an old world crop.As I said, the FARMS book has 85 chapters, and the book was published in 1992. FARMS has written many more articles sunstantiating the credibility of the BoM since then--13years ago. I will try to discuss more of them in upcoming posts. Judy: My question is Why do we need the BofM? and What is the Bible lacking that the BofM supplies? Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Geography of Never Never land
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kevin wrote: The BoM is a work of FICTION: Blaine writes: There is so much about the book of Mormon that tells us it is true, we don't need to know exactly where everything was, but we believe and have faith it will be revealed in the Lord's own due time anyway--He has not failed us yet. We know God is testing our faith--He will pull our very heartstrings to see if we can stand it, and if we can't, we are not fit for the Kingdom of God-- Judy: What exactly about the book of Mormon tells you it is true Blaine? What I can't figure out is why you would prefer that to the Holy Bible? **Blaine: How could you figure it out? You haven't read it! You can't draw water from a dry well. (:) Blaine: so, Kevin, and Judy, when the locations are eventually shown to man, you will be ashamed for not having had more faith, while we will be rejoicing, having had our faith tested, and having kept the faith as true and loyal servants. Judy: What if at His coming you learn that your faith has been misplaced? **Blaine: My faith in the BoM is such that I don't worry about that. I have read the BoM several times--each time, I have had my faith in it reinforced. Judy: After all, we will be judged by the words that Jesus spoke, not the book of Mormon. (see John 12:48) **Blaine:The BoM is chock full of Jesus' sayings. We will be judged by all of God's words, including, I believe, the BoM. I get the impression you think God could not do what he did in bringing forth the BoM. This takes faith. You need to begin by allowing yourself to believe it was possible--a small belief, as in a mustard seed. Your faith will grow as you are more able to see the BoM in a poitive llight. I have a question Judy-- The BoM claims to be more of the word of God, yet most peole are incurious about such a book. They have been so inculcated with the belief that the Bible is all that God is willing to do for us, that they just automatically turn the BoM off. Surely you have more faith in God than to believe he could not have brought forth more of his word. Judy: I dont' see any reason or any need to bring forth more the need is to understand and walk in what we have. Blaine: Our confidence will wax strong in the presence of God, but you will go away with your heads hanging down, unless you repent of your arrogance and pride. Judy: Paul told the Bereans they were more honorable than those in Thessalonica because they checked his teaching against the scriptures.. Why is it pride and arrogance to do the same today? It was God's wisdom then and God does not change. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. **Blaine: I apologize for using the words Pride and arrogance, I sometimes get a little arrogant myself, since I am so positive my faith in the BoM is solidly founded on the Rock of Christ. You are correct, you definitely should check the teachings of the BoM against the scriptures of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. (:) Blaine: BTW, there are already several newer books written by BYU people regards the locations in the BoM--very interesting stuff. But considering you are so anxious to make anything favorable to Mormonism appear wrong, or evil, I have fears you will not read them, or if you do read them, you would just fault them. Your quotes below are all back in the 60's and 70's-- any new stuff? I do have some things written more recently--all one has to do is vistit Deseret Book Store. Thye shalves get fuller and fuller. Judy: Of the writing of many books there is no end but the writer of Ecclesiastes tells us it is weariness to the flesh - I spend most of my time focusing on THE BOOK. **Blaine: Actually, I have studied the Bible as much if not more than the BoM, so I can't fault you for staying with it, especially since you were brought up with it exclusively. But stop and put yourself in the shoes of someone who was raised studying other scriptures not found in the Bible, as with myself. My perspective is different from yours only insofar as I have the advantage of a comparison. When I compare the two books, I find that the BoM answers questions not made clear in the Bible, yet does not contradict the Bible. The claim that bringing forth new scripture is violating a biblical injunction against doing so is nonsense. There are no injunctions against new scripture anywhere in the Bible--only injunctions about changing existing ones. But this would be true for any scripture--once written, it should not be changed. Judy: I can show you four different scriptures that warn against adding to or taking from the Word of God. You are right that I haven't read the BofM and I see no need to because the scriptures are all that is necessary for doctrine, reproof and instruction in righteousness. Grace and Peace, judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
[TruthTalk] Holy Hubert/Women
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] DavidM wrote: Let me quote 1 Timothy 2 for you and then quote some Torah portions that correspond to it. 1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. Judy wrote: And what does this have to do with anything relevant to us? Dosen't the prophecy in Joel and in Acts say that God's Spirit would be poured out on ALL flesh and that both men and women would prophesy and speak in other tongues. How do you do all of that in silence? DavidM: Do you realize that you are arguing with the words of Paul as written in the Bible? Why are you debating with the Bible? Judy: I'm not doing that David. I have no trouble with the Bible - I'm debating with you... DavidM: The emphasis is on exercising authority over the man. If you understand the Jewish mindset and method of teaching, it all makes perfect sense why he brings up silence. Judy: You've got that right - the Jewish mindset that is. This is not from the Torah rather it is from the Talmud or Jewish oral teachings. The Judaising party in the church were actively seeking to bring Christian wives into bondage to the Jewish oral traditions - Jewish men would thank God daily that they weren't born women. DavidM: He does not mean absolutely silent, but only in the kind of argumentative exchanges that happen among teachers and prophets digging into the Word of God. Judy: When I read silent I take it to mean silent. I don't know that the kind of argumentative exchanges that you describe are in the Spirit of the Lord. We are told in scripture that the servant of the Lord is not to strive but be patient with all men and apt to teach (2 Timothy 2:24) DavidM: Most churches, however, are very feminized and men do not function much above the feminine level. When you have feminized assemblies, these passages make no sense because men and women function in the same ways. Judy: I haven't a clue what you are talking about here, what do you mean 'feminized'? Are churches supposed to be 'masculine'? This is carnal reasoning. The scriptures teach that in Christ there is no Jew, Greek, male, female, bond or free so where does this division come from? DavidM: Women may prophesy, preach, speak in tongues, and sing as long as they do not exercise authority over men. Judy: Why should anybody be exercising authority over anybody else? We are told to subject ourselves one to another as believers and this applies to husbands and wives who are believers also. Why is so much importance given to men having authority over women. I don't see Paul living that way. He had women who labored with him in the gospel. Also the gifts Christ gave to the Church when he ascended. Are these only for men? DavidM: No. Why do you jump to such conclusions from my quoting the Bible? Judy: Because sometimes in exercising spiritual gifts there is a word of exhortation and if given by a woman she would be exercising authority over men - Are you saying that half the Church must be silent and listen to the other half? DavidM: No. Judy: Good. Not only that but women were used in the early Church - from the scriptures themselves we can find deaconesses, teachers, evangelists, and apostles who were female and you tell me this is not contradictory? DavidM: The passage is not contradictory when we look at the context and understand what is being said. Some try and say that Jesus Christ was a cannibal and taught cannibalism, but they are lifting passages out of context and not seeking to understand the message being conveyed. Judy: I'm glad you mention understanding in the light of context. Have you studied the history of Corinth and Ephesus? Had you thought that possibly some of their social customs could be part of the problem that Paul was addressing here? What about the head covering thing? DavidM wrote: Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. Judy: And what did the first Adam say? This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh (Gen 2:23) and we read of the last Adam, For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the Church; for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones... (Eph 5:29). I wrote previously: What is the above supposed to prove in your doctrine David? DavidM: I am quoting the Torah portion being referenced by Paul in 1 Timothy 2:12-13. I'm only trying to show you that Paul got his thinking from the Torah, and so when he says in 1 Cor. 14 as saith the Torah he meant the Torah of Moses
Fw: Re: [TruthTalk] Holy Hubert/Women
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Not only that but women were used in the early Church - from the scriptures themselves we can find deaconesses, teachers, evangelists, and apostles who were female DAVEH: ??? Where do we find female apostles in the Bible? Judy: Paul referred to a large number of servants of God, men and women, making no distinction of sex. He described Phebe as a ruler. He acknowledged Junia as an apostle, and distinguished her as of note among the apostles (Rom 16:7) John Chrysostom wrote in a Homily on Romans: Indeed to be an apostle at all is a great thing. But to be even amongst these of note, just consider what a great econium this is. But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. Oh how great is the devotion of this woman that she should even be counted worthy of the appellation of Apostle. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: I started this, I think--Judy seems to be having a difficult time accepting that there is a difference between the potential for sin and accomplished sin. Jesus had the potential for sin--otherwise the devil would not have taken him up on the high mtn to tempt him. Jesus did not succomb, either then or ever afterwards--or before, however.. Judy: Do you believe in the fall of the first Adam Blaine? Do you believe that every generation from then on is born with a fallen sin nature? Is this the potential for sin you are talking about? Judy From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman. DavidM: The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam). Judy: I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is different and spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father. Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born of fornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he chose to sin after the woman was deceived) and God held both accountable. (Rom 5:14). DavidM: We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy: Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allows everything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had an inheritance in the first Adam he would have been born spiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have had to have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also. but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father even at age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel. Grace adn Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Geography of Never Never land
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kevin wrote: The BoM is a work of FICTION: Blaine writes: There is so much about the book of Mormon that tells us it is true, we don't need to know exactly where everything was, but we believe and have faith it will be revealed in the Lord's own due time anyway--He has not failed us yet. We know God is testing our faith--He will pull our very heartstrings to see if we can stand it, and if we can't, we are not fit for the Kingdom of God-- Judy: What exactly about the book of Mormon tells you it is true Blaine? What I can't figure out is why you would prefer that to the Holy Bible? Blaine: so, Kevin, and Judy, when the locations are eventually shown to man, you will be ashamed for not having had more faith, while we will be rejoicing, having had our faith tested, and having kept the faith as true and loyal servants. Judy: What if at His coming you learn that your faith has been misplaced? After all, we will be judged by the words that Jesus spoke, not the book of Mormon. (see John 12:48) Blaine: Our confidence will wax strong in the presence of God, but you will go away with your heads hanging down, unless you repent of your arrogance and pride. Judy: Paul told the Bereans they were more honorable than those in Thessalonica because they checked his teaching against the scriptures.. Why is it price and arrogance to do the same today? It was God's wisdom then and God does not change. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Blaine: BTW, there are already several newer books written by BYU people regards the locations in the BoM--very interesting stuff. But considering you are so anxious to make anything favorable to Mormonism appear wrong, or evil, I have fears you will not read them, or if you do read them, you would just fault them. Your quotes below are all back in the 60's and 70's-- any new stuff? I do have some things written more recently--all one has to do is vistit Deseret Book Store. Thye shalves get fuller and fuller. Judy: Of the writing of many books there is no end but the writer of Ecclesiastes tells us it is weariness to the flesh - I spend most of my time focusing on THE BOOK. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] spare not CRY ALOUD
Hi Terry: This is an old one and you haven't been around in a while. Are you still out there and if so - what kind of evidence would it take? This is not an assumption but if you are of a certain 'religious' mindset nothing I have learned from scripture would make much difference. Judy From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy: Not necessarily; a lot of ppl have trouble with demons including genuine believers. I doubt the accuracy of this statement. Can you supply biblical evidence to support this assumption? I cannot see the Holy Spirit sharing the same house with a demon. Terry -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] He was COMPLETELY Man COMPLETELY God Nowhere in scripture does it say there was a conflict between these 2 Natures He had One personality 2 natures. Judy: How could he have two natures, the only two out there are the nature of God and the nature of the devil. Jesus had the mind of Christ - He only spoke and did what he first saw the Father speaking and doing. His words and works were from the Father - in fact he actually told Phillips "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father. Kevin: Jesus PROVED that He walked Holy! What scripture says He proved we could walk holy, because He walked Holy? Judy: I don't know about him proving it but he did leave us an example that we should follow in his steps. And he did say that the works he did we are to do also and 'greater' Also the apostle Peter writes in 1 Peter 1:15"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy" Grace and Peace, Judy David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judy wrote: ... he wasn't of the same flesh as the rest of us. He was made in the "likeness" of man - not the same as.. You are going to have to make up your mind whether or not Jesus was ahuman being. Jesus was either human, or he was an alien, angel, or godwho only looked like a human being. Which is it?
[TruthTalk] False Teachers
Judy: (see below) No it wouldnt... More accurately this would be the ministry of the Holy Spirit TO the unbeliever because when they hear the Word He convicts them of sin, their lack of righteousness, and the judgment to come which was what Paul spoke about to Felix in Acts 24:25 until he trembled but still heput off making a decision. The world can not receive the Holy Spirit (John 14:17) and so He does not work IN or through them until they make this committment to Christ (the real one) as Lord and Savior since ONLY those who call on the Name of the Lord are delivered. ~~~ David Miller wrote:Jesus clearly taught a specific work of the Holy Spirit in the lifeof the unbeliever. It deserves our attention. Consider the followingpassage:Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I goaway: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if Idepart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11 KJV)Dean wrote:And wasn't Jesus speaking to the Apostles? DavidM:Yes, he was speaking to the Apostles about the work of the Holy Spirit in UNBELIEVERS. The passage says, "BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE NOT ON ME." So would this not also include unbelieving Mormons?
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
Judy wrote: ... he wasn't of the same flesh as the rest of us. He was made in the likeness of man - not the same as.. DavidM: You are going to have to make up your mind whether or not Jesus was a human being. Jesus was either human, or he was an alien, angel, or god who only looked like a human being. Which is it? Judy: The first Adam was created a grown man and he was a human being, he was not an alien, an angel, or a demon. DavidM: The Greek word translated likeness is homoioma. Based on semantics alone, it might mean that Jesus possessed a completely human form, or it might mean that he only looked like a man but really was not one. We must look to other passages and to the context of this passage to determine which is meant. Judy: Why, we know he had a flesh, blood, and bone body; he had a mind, will, and emotions, and he was the image of God because he said If you have seen me you have seen the Father DavidM: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4 KJV) How does Christ condemn sin in the flesh if he did not become flesh? This does not make any sense to me. If you have a way of explaining, I would welcome hearing it. Judy: Sin in the flesh was condemned at the cross where he layed down His life for us and our sin. He says in John 14:30 The prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me So Satan had nothing in Him. DavidM: The author of Hebrews likewise turns to the humanity of Jesus to encourage us to resist sin, giving us power to rise above the flesh to do what is holy and good. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood,striving against sin. (Hebrews 12:2-4 KJV) Judy: Note the contradiction of sinners against himself was outward, and not also that He is the author and perfecter or finisher of our faith Our sin is inward for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies; these are the things which defile a man (Matt 15:19) DavidM: The clear implication here is that Jesus strove against sin and had to resist the temptation to sin. Surely he experienced the same infirmity of the flesh that we do, which is why he is able to help us and relate to us when we likewise must resist sin. Judy: We have no evidence that he was ever sick or that he ever offended anyone verbally. He went about doing good and healing ALL who were oppressed of the devil for God was with him. He was a man walking in the full measure of the Holy Spirit - with an inherited sin nature and What made him different is that he didn't have the same inheritance in the first Adam as us. DavidM: Where does this idea come from? What Bible verse taught you this? Can you even quote one? Judy: There are a lot of them but look at the reaction of John the Baptist for starters I baptize you with water unto repentance but he that cometh after me is mightier than I whose shoes I am not worthy to bear, he shall baptize yo with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. Vs.13 then cometh jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? Jesus got baptized as a formality to fulfill all righteousness... Not because he needed to repent. DavidM: The Bible teaches us the opposite of this, that Jesus had inheritance in Adam and was descended from him, being born of the seed of Abraham and of the seed of David. As pertaining to the flesh, Jesus was just as much a man as any of us. Jesus was a human being. Judy: He wasn't born of the seed of any man David. God the Holy Spirit was His father. DavidM: I do not believe that we can truly understand the atonement and step into holiness without understanding this humanity of Christ. Christ became flesh and dwelt among us. He was truly one of us and showed us how to live. Jesus Christ was our example in every way. If his flesh was some alien flesh that was not descended from Abraham and David, then he is not truly my brother, then he truly did not have the same experiences that I have in the flesh, and he would be no hero for me concerning my walk before God anymore than an angel would be. Judy: Did an angel hang naked on the cross publicly for you and your sin David? Yes he left us an example that we should follow in His steps and because of the cross we can now receive power from on high to walk it out. Judy wrote: The egg does
[TruthTalk]
Sorry about the double posting folk. I'm trying to use Juno Webmail at my daughter's house and it cut me off so I thought the post was lost and redid it - now I find they both showed up. Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: Blaine Borrowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: I started this, I think--Judy seems to be having a difficult time accepting that there is a difference between the potential for sin and accomplished sin. Jesus had the potential for sin--otherwise the devil would not have taken him up on the high mtn to tempt him. Jesus did not succomb, either then or ever afterwards--or before, however.. Judy: I don't have a hard time understanding the potential for sin vs accomplished sin Blaine. What I don't accept is Jesus being born with the spiritual inheritance left to the rest of us by the first Adam after his fall. Jesus did not have Adam's genes - He was created in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit. Is that too hard for God or is it just hard for us to accept? He is not the fruit of any fallen person's body. If God could create the first Adam full grown, why is it so hard to accept that God could create a baby in Mary's womb independent of Mary? Has science become our new god. Judy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman. DavidM: The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam). Judy: I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is different and spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father. Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born of fornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he chose to sin after the woman was deceived) and God held both accountable. (Rom 5:14). DavidM: We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy: Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allows everything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had an inheritance in the first Adam he would have been born spiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have had to have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also. but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father even at age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel. Grace adn Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Mormon Rituals
No DAVEH As it turns out yesterday a.m. was just alull - Do you ever feel like you are the recipient of'information overload'? Grace and Peace, Judy From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well that's up to you fellows, I thought it might clear the air orclear some things up DAVEH: There is little I can say that will clear the air as long as there are those in TT who do not want to discuss some of these things in seriousness. - whatever you want to call it and I don't thinkyou would get much 'flack' here. It appears as though Kevin has runout of steam...DAVEH: LOLDo you really believe that, Judy?Judy [EMAIL PROTECTED]DAVEH: Replying to your posts related to the Temple brings a lot of flack"Yup must be someone that is trying to destroy the Church This lady must be lying Anyone that goes against the ONE True Church... Blah Blah Blah" ..rather than sincere discussion, Judy. So rather than discuss that which I consider sacred, I'd rather just leave such alone. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this right DAVEH and Blaine? Mormon Rituals -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
[TruthTalk] Holy Hubert/Women
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: I just responded to the quote you posted from Holy Hubert David. Yes it was cute as a 'one liner' but not God's heart on the matter. DavidM: I disagree. I think it does capture God's heart on the matter, given the context in which it was spoken. Judy wrote: When Paul wrote thus sayeth the law he was talking about the Jewish writings or Mishnah which were comments made by the Rabbi's because the law itself says nothing about women being silent in an assembly. DavidM: Wrong, Judy. We addressed this already in the past and it is discouraging to have to repeat it yet again. The Mishnah was not written until hundreds of years later. Judy: I can empathize after a fashion DavidM because it discourages me to read such legalism coming from a man with influence over a wife and five daughters. Apparently I used the wrong word, it was not the Mishnah - it is the Oral Law I am speaking of ie: over the centuries various interpretations of the Law had been added to the religious literature of Judaism. These often added regulations were intended to protect the pious Jew from unintentionally violating any Mosaic statute or ruling. By Jesus time this oral law was considered to be as binding as Scripture itself and some even argued that God had given both oral and written law to Moses at Sinai (Revell Bible Dictionary p.624) and it is this 'oral law' that so discriminates against women. DavidM: I suspect you got this from a book that was wrong and you erroneously trusted it and believed it to be true, but it is an anachronistic statement made in ignorance. Judy: Wrong DavidM. I have given this topic hours and hours of study because of the contradictions in scripture if the surface meaning is taken at face value. I suggest you give it more time and attention. DavidM: Paul was teaching about what the Torah itself teaches. He even specifically teaches from the Torah on this matter in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 when he touches on this same subject. Judy: Where do you find this in the Torah? How do you know this statement did not originate with the Judaizing party in the church at Corinth who were quoting from the Talmud? DavidM: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Timothy 2:11-15 KJV) I could write for pages from the Torah alone about gender differences and the role of women and men. The idea that the Torah is silent about women being subject to men is bogus. Recognize this first, then let's talk about it. Judy: I don't believe you will find the above statement anywhere in the Torah because God does not ordain the government of women by men in fact he expressly forbids it. God does not want man to be as God to woman and usurp Christ's place of authority over His own servant. Even in the sphere of marital relations the woman is not to be irresponsibly submissive to her own husband; she was to be punished as severely as he if she submitted under unsuitable conditions (see Leviticus 20:18). I wrote: Thank you for shedding more light on Hubert's belief. However, neither should men be ruling the Church, we are all to be led by the Spirit of Christ. DavidM: Another erroneous teaching. Government is an orderly form of ruling, and the Spirit sets some in the church in governments (1 Cor. 12:28). We could discuss this in much greater detail. Where we agree is that godly rulers rule by serving, but that is not to say that men ought not rule and govern in the church. Judy: God's people are to submit only to those through whom they hear the voice of Jesus. The apostle Paul said 'follow me as I follow Christ' DavidM wrote: In regards to Sarah's telling Abraham what to do, she was basically undoing her previous work of telling Abraham to take Hagar to be his wife. Furthermore, she did not exercise authority over Abraham in this regard, but simply expressed her desire and let Abraham make the decision. Judy wrote: This is not the way it reads in my Bible DavidM: But Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian whom she had borne to Abraham playing with her son Isaac; so she said to Abraham Cast out this slave women with her son, for the son of this slave woman shall not be heir with my son Isaac And the thing was very displeasing to Abraham on account of his son. But God said to Abraham Be not displeased because of the lad and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you for through Isaac shall your descendents be named. (Genesis 21:9-12) DavidM: Yes, and notice that Sarah did not take the matter into her own hands here. She recognized
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kevin wrote: Ps 51:5 in sin did my mother conceive me. This is the purpose of the Virgin Birth that Jesus would not inherit a sin nature. He was not concieved in SIN you were! DavidM: Your teaching here comes from Roman Catholicism. Judy: No the above isn't Roman Catholicism; they are the ones who fabricated the 'Immaculate Conception' so that Mary would not be able to pass down her sin nature because according to them she didn't have one. DavidM: The Bible teaches the opposite, that Christ became flesh (1 John 4:2), that he was MADE OF A WOMAN (Galatians 4:4). Judy: My Bible says He was 'born of a woman and born under the law' Big difference. Mary had nothing to do with His making. He was begotten of God and this is why the 'virgin birth' is important. The life of the flesh is in the blood. God made the first Adam out of the dust of the earth, then breathed into him the breath of life/blood. and he became a living soul. Apparently in human procreation it is the male sperm that generates the blood and the placenta protects the child with no blood passing between it and the mother. So Mary was the incubated the Lord of Glory and Jesus blood was holy from the start... DavidM: The virgin birth was simply a sign according to Isaiah 7:14. Based upon the Bible, nothing more can be made of it. Judy: It is good to qualify by saying - 'based upon what I know of the Bible nothing more can be made of it. Because there is much more to it. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk]LDS Elohim Jehovah 2 sinners?
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kevin wrote: Jesus could not have a Carnal Mind DavidM writes: The carnal mind is the brain. Are you trying to argue that Jesus did not have a brain? !! Judy: The carnal mind is not a physical organ called the brain because to be carnally minded is death and to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Jesus was never ever carnally minded. He was/is always Life, Light, and Truth. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy wrote: What I don't accept is Jesus being born with the spiritual inheritance left to the rest of us by the first Adam after his fall. DavidM: Spiritual inheritance? What is spiritual inheritance? How is ittransferred to us? Where does the Bible teach "spiritual inheritance"? Judy: Iniquity is a generational participation with sin bearing the same fruit. It shows up as inherited genetic disease and it shows up in a predisposition to personality characteristics such as molestation and doing crime, drugs, rage, anger, and fear. When the Jews of the dispersion returned to Jerusalem and found the book of the law. They stood and listened to it being read all day, and after they agreed to getrid of their foreign wives, they confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers. (Nehemiah 9:2) I wrote: Jesus did not have Adam's genes - DavidM: He most certainly did. The Bible teaches that he was made of the woman(Gal. 4:4), Judy: Born of the woman and born under the law (Gal 4:4); where do you get the idea the He was "MADE" of the woman? DavidM: was made flesh (John 1:14, Romans 1:13), Judy: Romans 1:13 says nothing about Jesus being "MADE" flesh; John 1:14 says the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory the glory of the ONLY begotten of the Father full of grace and truth. and Vs18 "No man has seen God at any time; the ONLY begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. So Jesus was BEGOTTEN, not MADE. DAVIDM: was begotten of Adam (Luke 3:22-38), and Jesus was truly, in truth, a mortal man being made the son of man (John 5:27, Luke 24:7). Judy: The geneaogy in Luke 3:23-38 is through Joseph and we all know that Joseph was not the biological Father of Jesus - this does not make Him a son of the first Adam, he was born of the woman. I wrote: He was created in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit. Is that too hard for God or is it just hard for us to accept? He is not the fruit of any fallen person's body. If God could create the first Adam full grown, why is it so hard to accept that God could create a baby in Mary's womb independent of Mary? Has science become our new god. It is not too hard for God to have created Jesus this way, but suchteaching is contrary to what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that Jesus was made of a woman and truly became flesh like the rest of us. He was not some alien from outer space. He was a mortal man just like the rest of us. Judy: Yes he was mortal in the sense that he had a full range of emotions and he got hungry and had to rest but he was not born with the fallen bloodline the rest of us are heir to. DavidM: Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise TOOK PART OF THE SAME; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily HE TOOK NOT ON HIM THE NATURE OF ANGELS; BUT HE TOOK ON HIM THE SEED OF ABRAHAM. Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted,he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:14-18 KJV) Judy: Phil 2:6,7 explains how he is MADE like his brethren ie: "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God but MADE HIMSELF of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death even the death of the cross" Yes He took flesh blood upon Himself and every sin known to humanity on the cross at Calvary so I would say He knows about sin first hand. "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN (Hebrews 4:15)For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sin; who can have compassion on the ignorant and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity; and by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins" (Hebrews 5:1-3). Conclusion:Jesus did not go beyond the veil with an offering for his own sin andHe was not compassed with generational sin/infirmity. DavidM: Believe the BIBLE, not the fairy tales told by the religious clergy. Judy: TT are the only 'religious clergy' I presently hear fairy tales from, but I will accept your counsel on this point... Grace and Peace, Judy
[TruthTalk] The Incarnation of Christ
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kevin wrote: It is Blasphemous to deny the incarnation and since Jesus was God manifest in the flesh to attribute the ability to sin and a sin nature to Jesus is to attribute the same to God. DavidM: The incarnation means that Jesus had qualities of both man and God. Judy: More of those 'fairy tales' DavidM. This word is not in the Bible. It comes from some theology, most likely RCC since they are so big on the 'incarnation' DavidM: Therefore, Jesus had attributes which were characteristic of man but which also were not characteristic of God. For example, Jesus could be killed, but God can't be killed. Judy: Correction - they could kill his body, or more correctly He could lay it down but they could not touch anything else. His body was not Him, it was just the house he lived in for a time. DavidM: It was the quality of Jesus being a man that enabled him to taste death and be killed. Another attribute is that Jesus could be tempted to sin. God cannot be tempted to sin. This is another quality of Jesus whereby Jesus experienced something which Father God never experienced. Consider the following passages: ... God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But EVERY MAN IS TEMPTED, WHEN HE IS DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. (James 1:13-14 KJV) Compare this Scripture with the following Scripture: For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (Hebrews 4:15 KJV) Clearly, Jesus was like other men regarding the infirmity of the flesh. Jesus was not like God in this respect or he never could have been tempted in the same way as other men are tempted. This is Bible. Believe it. There are many other passages that agree with this and teach the humanity of Christ. Judy: So Jesus was tempted by the devil in the wilderness and overcame in the three areas the first Adam fell in. He then went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed of the devil and finally lay down his life of his own free will taking upon himself the sin of all humanity knowing by faith that the Father would raise him up on the third day. What other examples do you have from the Bible of how Jesus was 'tempted' and 'drawn away of his own lust and enticed as per James 1?' Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kevin wrote: Ps 51:5 in sin did my mother conceive me. This is the purpose of the Virgin Birth that Jesus would not inherit a sin nature. He was not concieved in SIN you were! DavidM: Your teaching here comes from Roman Catholicism. Judy wrote: No the above isn't Roman Catholicism; they are the ones who fabricated the 'Immaculate Conception' so that Mary would not be able to pass down her sin nature because according to them she didn't have one. DavidM: They fabricated the Immaculate Conception because in their effort to make Jesus not flesh they were cornered by the passages that showed Jesus being begotten of a woman. Judy: He wasn't begotten of a woman He was born of a women and begotten of God. DavidM: Therefore, they imagined the Immaculate Conception in order to keep their fantasy that Jesus was not really of the same flesh as the rest of us. Judy: And he wasn't of the same flesh as the rest of us. He was made in the likeness of man - not the same as.. and He limited Himself by laying aside the glory He had with the Father during His earthly ministry. What made him different is that he didn't have the same inheritance in the first Adam as us. I wrote: My Bible says He was 'born of a woman and born under the law' Big difference. Mary had nothing to do with His making. He was begotten of God and this is why the 'virgin birth' is important. DavidM: The Greek word translated made in the KJV and born in some of the modern translations is ginomai. It is the same word used in Mat. 4:3 when Satan tempted Jesus to make stones into bread. He said, command that these stones be MADE bread. It is the same word in 1 Cor. 15:45 where it says that the first man Adam was MADE a living soul. It is the same word in 21:42 translated as become, saying the stone ... is become the head of the corner. Jesus was of the seed of David and of the seed of Mary. Judy wrote: Apparently in human procreation it is the male sperm that generates the blood DavidM: This is bogus. Somebody started repeating this lie again and again so that I hear it all the time but there is no biological truth to it. The blood develops from the mother, and it is genetically determined by both sperm and egg. Judy: The egg does nothing at all until united with sperm which comes from the father and blood begins to flow in the 3rd week before the heart begins to beat. No blood flows in an egg incubating all by itself because there is no life and the placenta protects the child with no blood passing between it and the mother. DavidM: This is an over-emphasis, as the placental barrier is not perfect and the sex of the child may actually be determined from taking a blood sample of the mother and testing the blood cells from the unborn found therein. Judy: Normally there is no blood interaction between mother and child. and today the sex of an unborn child is determined by ultrasound. Being RH- myself and having had four children I know how uncertain all of this is. Judy: It is good to qualify by saying - 'based upon what I know of the Bible nothing more can be made of it. Because there is much more to it. DavidM: The point was that the much more to it is from extra-Biblical sources. I'm not faulting that, but trying to make sure we keep the authorities separate in our minds. Judy: Not necessarily - are you saying that you know all there is to know about scripture DavidM? Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk]LDS Elohim Jehovah 2 sinners?
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: The carnal mind is not a physical organ called the brain because to be carnally minded is death DavidM: If you think about it, that is exactly why the carnal mind leads to death. Judy: Scripture says that 'IT IS DEATH'; I think our problem is in part that I speak of the spiritual and you translate it and respond to the natural. DavidM: The physical body is under a curse, so whoever sows to the flesh reaps of the flesh corruption. Judy: The carnal mind is death without any sowing one way or the other. It just is... DavidM: The physical brain is that part of the mind that cares about the body and the things of this physical world. Judy: Not always, I've read that Einstein was so intellectual that he never knew if he had matching socks or an overcoat on in the middle of winter. DavidM: If we mind it, we will reap only that which it can yield, which in the end is corruption and death. Judy: The brain in and of itself is amoral. Nobel Laureate Sir John Eccles describes the human brain as a machine that a ghost can operate. In fact the late Eccles was convinced that there is compelling evidence to support the traditional religious belief in the existence of a nonphysical soul and/or spirit - and that this is the ghost which actually operates the human brain and through it the body. Grace and Peace, Judy Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] The Incarnation of Christ
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not looking for a debate. I'm looking for some kind of agreement that Jesus was a human being. If Jesus was not human, then the logical inference from that is that you do not believe in the Incarnation (God clothed in humanity). If Jesus was not of the same species as us, then he is an alien. Judy: Not necessarily - why can't he be the same species as the first Adam before the fall and when faced with the same temptations overcome leading to life and hope for the rest of us rather than fall into sin and disobedience Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Holy Hubert/Women
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] I see no contradictions in Scripture if taken at face value. Judy: How can you not, I find this incredulous DavidM: Let me quote 1 Timothy 2 for you and then quote some Torah portions that correspond to it. This is pretty basic, but for some reason you seem to be having some kind of tunnel vision that keeps you from seeing the obvious. 1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. Judy: And what does this have to do with anything relevant to us? Didn't the prophecy in Joel and in Acts say that God's Spirit would be poured out on ALL flesh and that both men and women would prophesy and speak in other tongues. How do you do all of that in silence? Also the gifts Christ gave to the Church when he ascended. Were those only for men? Are you telling me that half the Church must be in silence and listen to the other half? Give me a break. Not only that but women were used in the early Church - from the scriptures themselves we can find deaconesses, teachers, evangelists, and apostles who were female and you tell me this is not contradictory? DavidM: Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Judy: Yes and what is all of the above supposed to prove in your doctrine David? How does this validate the idea that the woman is supposed to be 'silent'? DavidM: Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife Judy: I hope you are not implying that Adam did the same as Abraham and messed up by listening to the woman .. I'm kind of getting the idea that this is what you are leading up to. DavidM: 1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Judy: And how does the man get saved? He too gets saved through childbearing since Christ the Messiah is the ONLY way to God and the man is also fallen... DavidM: Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. So when Paul said in 1 Cor. 14, as also saith the Torah, he really meant the Torah and not the oral law of the Rabbi's. Judy: No DavidM, you've not proved anything here because the curse prophesied over the woman in Genesis 3:16 is now null and void through Christ because Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us, so why would Paul put women back under that pray tell? Judy wrote: God does not want man to be as God to woman and usurp Christ's place of authority over His own servant. Even in the sphere of marital relations the woman is not to be irresponsibly submissive to her own husband; she was to be punished as severely as he if she submitted under unsuitable conditions (see Leviticus 20:18). DavidM: Equal punishment is always given to those under one's authority. Look how many died because of David's sin with Bathsheba. If I make a poor decision, my children suffer because they are under my authority. Judy: I'm not speaking of children DavidM, certainly we have a responsibility for them. But your wife stands or falls by her own choices, not yours. DavidM: The New Testament Scriptures clearly teach that the man is the head of the woman just as Christ is the head of every man. But I would have you know, that THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN IS CHRIST; AND THE HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3 KJV)
[TruthTalk] Jesus had the same sinful flesh that we have
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Jesus had no inheritance in the first Adam, he was born of the woman. DavidM: The woman Mary was descended from Adam; ergo, Jesus was descended from Adam and had inheritance in Adam (see Luke 3 for the direct genealogy to Adam). Judy: I am speaking of spiritual inheritance which is different and spiritual inheritance always comes through the Father. Jesus was created in Mary's womb; he was not born of fornication, neither was his spiritual inheritance in the first Adam - remember it was Adam that transgressed (he chose to sin after the woman was deceived) and God held both accountable. (Rom 5:14). DavidM: We know from Scripture that Jesus was of the same flesh that we have, and he was therefore partaker of the same sinful nature that is part of this flesh, being tempted in every way that we are (Romans 8:3, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 1:7). Judy: Being tempted proves nothing and is not sin. God allows everything He creates to be tested. If Jesus had an inheritance in the first Adam he would have been born spiritually dead like the rest of us and He would have had to have been 'born again' just like the rest of us also. but he was very much alive to the voice of the Father even at age 12 he knew more than all of the teachers in Israel. Grace adn Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk]LDS Elohim Jehovah 2 sinners?
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Laura wrote: Jesus is and always was. He was before Adam. He did not inherit carnal tendencies. Any human traits he took on were by choice. DavidM: If Jesus did not inherit the same carnal tendencies, then he was not tempted in all points like we are. Judy: The first Adam was created without carnal tendencies and he was tempted in the garden. DavidM: For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (Hebrews 4:15 KJV) Judy: Yes he was hot, cold, tired, despised, rejected, a man of sorrows and a man aquainted with the fruit of sin in the lives of those around him. DavidM: Therefore, we must conclude that Jesus Christ was made flesh, human flesh, and therefore was of Adam in all points just as we are of Adam. To this agrees also Romans 8:3: Judy: This is where logic breaks down DavidM and Romans 8:3 does not validate this assumption since a likeness is just that - a likeness... DavidM: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. (Romans 8:3 KJV) Judy: Yes, he overcame in the areas where the first Adam failed. The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the boastful pride of life (see Genesis 3:6) and (Matt 4:1-11) ATST neither he nor the first Adam had an inheritance in sin when the first Adam failed and the 2nd Adam (Jesus) overcame. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Mormons and Women
From: "Blaine Borrowman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: Hi again Judy, This was a very interesting account. Sounds like this woman is pretty bitter. Judy: I don't know about that, she went on to say that she tried other religions but could not feel comfortable with them so she is now of the opinion that she is spiritual rather than 'religious' Blaine: But when she says the Church told her she could not divorce her husband, I have to take that with a grain of salt. The church has no say in civil matters, so to say they won't let her get a divorce, isjust not true.. Judy: Well obviously because she went to the Courthouse and got a divorce. But we don't know that the stake leader or whatever they are called didn't tell her that do we? and he would represent the Church to her, she is just recounting her experience with the Church and this man. Blaine: If she is talking about having hertemple sealing to her husband "cancelled," which is the word they use, she is the one who needs to initiate that--the man doesn't need to, as he can basically be sealed to more than one woman. But if he is sleeping with other women, he is committing adultry, and unless he repents in sackcloth and ashes, he will not behaving a second woman sealed to him--he would noteven be able to get a temple recommend in the first place, and all sealings must be done in the temples, so? Judy: She didn't mention all that, she did say that she lives in Fairbanks Alaska and that they got married in SLC. I'm not sure which one was a Mormon to begin with but it sounds to me as though it was him and he didn't have a problem with it. Blaine: What is the problem with this woman? She is mad as H--- at her husband, that is for sure!!! LOL Other than that, I cannot seethat she has any problem. Judy: For starters she is totally against your Church now and any Church for that matter. The husband is now an ex and who knows when and if she will trust another man. I see these astwo huge problems and no laughing matter. Judy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is part of a testimony by Karen that was on a website I was visiting... So what about this DaveH and Blaine? This is most definitely not the Jesus I serve... Judy Karen writes: I have been reading the articles about the Mormon church on David's site and I just wanted to tell you that you are definitely on the right track. I was raised Mormon here in Fairbanks, Alaska. I was married in the Salt Lake Temple in April 1980. The ceremonies, word for word, were exactly the same as the Masonic rituals. I especially was disgusted by the part of the ritual where I was told that my husband would have to "bring me into heaven" - I could not get there by myself, no matter how good I was. My husband ran off with an underage hooker one month after we returned from the temple, and informed me that I must remain married to him, because he wanted to be able to "get some" from me any time he was bored with the hooker. The church told me, when I complained to them, that I must do as he said, and that I could not divorce him. Well, I knew where the court house was, so I got my divorce, anyway and left the church in the dust.
[TruthTalk] Mormons and Women
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] DAVEH: I find the below a bit curious, Judy. First, let me reflect upon your comment, This is most definitely not the Jesus I serve I guess I am missing something.where did Karen mention anything about Jesus? Judy: Isn't your Church called The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints? DaveH: Next, while I'm not intimately familiar with Masonic rituals, the comment The ceremonies, word for word, were exactly the same as the Masonic rituals. is not at all true. Judy: I don't know how she knows about Masonic rituals but there are books and I've heard this before also. Joseph Smith is said to have gone thru the whole 33 degrees of the York Rite in one day and he incorporated these rituals into his new religion. How do you know this is not true if you are not familiar with them? DaveH: And, as Blaine explained.The Church simply would not have said that she must do as he said, and that I could not divorce him. Judy: Maybe 'the Church' whoever that is would not have said it but how can you be sure that the leader of their Stake in Fairbanks Alaska did not say it? DaveH: Furthermore, the comment My husband ran off with an underage hooker one month after we returned from the temple, and informed me that I must remain married to him, because he wanted to be able to get some from me any time he was bored with the hooker. just seems a little too patently silly. Judy: To you and me maybe but there is worse than that out there... DaveH: Also..Karen said the ritual where I was told that my husband would have to 'bring me into heaven' - I could not get there by myself, no matter how good I was doesn't sound anything like what I've heard, either in or out of the Temple. Judy: Really?? I've never been to the temple but I have heard that this is the reason that marriages are sealed in SLC - because women need to be sealed to a man to get to heaven. Are you saying this is not so? DaveH: So Judy..In my opinion, Karen's 'testimony' is a bit too contrived to be believed by anyone except those who are gullible. Judy: Well then I guess I must be gullible because I am not ready to call her an out and out liar. Her experience didn't sound so off the wall to me, I'll just put it on my big shelf. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Dean Ruben
From: Dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] Charles Perry Locke wrote: DavidH, I am aftraid I can't buy your presentation of 2 Sam 12:7-8 as a prooftext that God commanded polygamy. DAVEH: Of course you can't buy it, Perry...It would make your beliefs pretty suspect. So when the Bible say's something that is a bit difficult to swallow, you have to rationalize it to a point where it no longer means what it implies. Read it again and ask yourself how many wives David had and where/how did he get them along with the kingdom. Judy: How did David get to be the standard for marriage? Yes he took more than one wife but this was not God's will or choice Deuteronomy 17:14-20 tells us what God's will in the matter is, but Israel did not always do God's will - neither did David. Grace and Peace, Judy -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk]LDS Elohim Jehovah 2 sinners?
From: "Blaine Borrowman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blaine: When Jacob gave his blessings to Ephraim and Mannasseh, he gave the greater blessing to Ephraim, whom he said would be greater than his older brother. Judy: Which is not surprising when one looks at the life of Mannasseh... Blaine: In Biblical history, Ephraim was one of the two leading tribes, competing with Judah. Thekingdoms of Israel and Judah were ruled by descendants of Ephraim and Judah respectively, those from the tribe of Judah being of the lineage of David. Judy: Not exclusively, more than once a servant took the throne in Israel. Jehu and his four sons are one example. Blaine: The tribes led by Ephraim (the ten tribes) were "lost" as they were conquered and taken out of the land of Israel. Judy: Both Israel and Judah were conquered and taken out of the land of Israel. Only difference being that Israel went first. Blaine: Butseveral books have been written with evidence that they were led into the Northern European countries. I believe many of the European "Gentiles"are of that lineage, especially the British. Judy: They were conquered by the Assyrians and led off toBabylon for 70yrs It is called the "Babylonian captivity". European gentiles are not Semitic people. The Jews fled to Europe during the dispersion. Blaine: The British flag shows both the Lion and the Unicorn. The Lion has always represented Judah. It is still the symbol for the nation of Israel. Moses Mainamides, a Jew of the 14th century, showed by pedigree that most of the ruling class of Europe descends from David, who was of the tribe of Judah. Judy: Who is this Moses? His thesisreminds me of Islam where every sect claims to have a lineage that goes back to Mohammad. Blaine: The Unicorn is from a mistranslation in the Bible of the true symbol of the tribe of Joseph, which is the wild ox.The two horns represent the two sons of Joseph--Ephraim and Manasseh. Judy: Is the above validated by scripture and so -what is the point of all this? Blaine: England, I believe in particular has much of the blood of Israel in it. The word "Saxons" is thought by some to be a corruption of the word "Isaac'sons." Judy: Huge leap into heresy - the British descended from the pagan Celts. Blaine: Many of the fair people of Northern Europe probably are also of the House of Israel, including Denmark--where the tribe of Dan settled? Just alittle food forthought. Judy: Don't think so Blaine - all of this sounds like a flight of fantasy to me. Europe was overcome by Vandals, Vikings, Huns etc. and during Jesus'earthly ministrythe Jews did not consider the Romans to be any kin to them. Grace and Peace, Judy
[TruthTalk] Mormons and Women
From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] DAVEH: I find the below a bit curious, Judy bigt snipSo Judy..In my opinion, Karen's 'testimony' is a bit toocontrived to be believed by anyone except those who are gullible. Judy: I have another Oophs! here. It wasn't Karen who wrote the first testimony. I read more than one and got the names mixed up; thatwoman didn't give her name and Karen's testimony is the one below. I'm posting it because it goes along withDean's experiences.If this anointing with oil goes on then I wouldn't be surprised at anythingthat follows. Dean writes:At the risk of sounding gullable Daveh-I have personally had women come up to me on the street in SLC and make similar claims in the area that theyare oppressed by Mormon Church-talking of suicide and talked of becoming alesbian-some even have made claims of being raped in the Temple. One wentas far as tell me that she approached me because we were the only ones whowould stand up to this church. I could overlook one isolated report of thisevent but we have had many come up to us with the same report-but don't askfor names as they were afraid to give those out. I have told you of thisbefore- last year. Is this related to the fact that SLC has a much higheraverage than the nation in teen pregnancy and drug abuse? You will knowthem by their fruits.Do you ignore the suffering of your own people byturning a blind eye to this also?. ~ Karen writes: I was reading your article about the Mormon's and the JW's and I have for long time known something was really wierd about the Mormons. I lived in Boise, Idaho for many years in the 70's and the 80's and they built a new Temple (first in Idaho) right off the freeway so all could see. For a few days before the actual opening of the Temple they allowed everyone who wished to tour through the temple and see what is there.I saw with my own eyes a circular room with 12 doorways covered by cloth curtain which they explained were the doorways where the elders were to stand and look as a young initiate was to undress and which they were supposed to anoint every 'orifice' with oil. Next to this room and leading from that room was a room where there was a GOLDEN CALF. Really now...what do they need to have a golden calf for as in the Old Testament which the Jewish people made sacrifice to when Moses was out trying to write down from God the Ten Comandments. They didn't actually admit that they did sacrificing but they said it was for their rituals of 'Faith'... I just thought you might find this interesting as you said no one had ever been in one of their temples who wasn't a Mormon and I might be just one of those rare persons.Thanks,Karen
[TruthTalk] Mormons and Women
Here is another unhappy Mormon woman who is saying the same thing about having to be sealed to a man in a temple to get to heaven... Judy ~~ It Was NO Mistake Dear David,Thank you for confirming the suspicions I have had for many years about the Mormon church which I've been in all my life. Just thought I'd like to add an example of how unfair their rules are for women without going back to when I was a young girl since they will claim someone just made a mistake in my case (it was NO mistake). Several years ago my uncle was going around to homes campaigning for the job of county commissioner here. He met a woman he visited regulary for sex and then decided to move in with her. He and his wife had been sealed in the Salt Lake City Temple. She divorced him because of the adultery. He married the woman who is about the age of his adult sons, she joined the church, and they were sealed in the Orlando Temple. The church cancelled the marriage performed in the Salt Lake Temple. If the rules had been applied fairly, he would have been excommunicated according to church rules. Now if you keep in mind that they have indoctrinated women into believing they cannot reach the celestial kingdom in heaven unless they are sealed to a man in one of the temples while here on earth, you can see why women are unhappy with the system. The relatives here protect one another. His first cousin is a Patriarch and a big percentage of the members are related since it's a small community. The church boasts about how they begin teaching children at age 3. I hate to admit it, but I've taught the 3-5 year old group, the teen-agers, and the adult class. I've been a history teacher in Miami so when I taught the adult class I didn't follow the manual exactly and used additional resources causing one woman who graduated from BYU to question my information. Last time I went to a class I noticed the teacher who is a school principal here, follows the manual exactly. If you question anything you're accused of being influenced by Satan. How did you find out about the connection to the Jehovah Witness and Satanism at the top level? I've always read and questioned things but that evaded me until I read it on your website. Thank you again. It's been a struggle for me but I'm feeling more free by the day.Love,Name withheld
[TruthTalk] Mormon Rituals
Is this right DAVEH and Blaine? Mormon Rituals Hi David,Although I was raised Catholic, I did join the LDS (Mormon) church in the mid-70's but left it in the late 70's after looking deeply into the religion, beyond the surface, outward hype. Before I left, I had been initiated (endowment) in the temple and had gone through the ceremony several times after that. I also graduated from Brigham Young University in 80, although I had left the church by that time.The temple ceremony includes oaths and you're told several ways in which 'god' may "take your life" if you reveal the secrets of the temple. Each member at these ceremonies repeats the hand gestures of god's potential wrath. These include having your throat cut and disembowelment. The participant extends his/her right arm with hand open and thumb extended, then move the extended thumb to just below his/her left ear. Next, in one motion, the extended thumb is drawn across the throat to the right ear "demonstrating how 'god' may take your life if you reveal the first token of the Aaronic priesthood". There are 2 more penalties, for the second token of the Aaronic priesthood and the first token of the Melchizedek priesthood. No penalty is given for the second token of the Melchizedek priesthood, but a warning of it's 'sacredness' is given.After the endowment ceremony, which includes anointing with oil and the giving of a secret name (mine was Enoch, which I find very interesting these days) when one goes through the first time, the initiate wears a one piece underclothing called the garment. It has short sleeves, you step in through the neck, and it goes down to the knees. There are symbols on the garment, a compass and a square (one over each nipple of the chest), a small (1/4") slit over the navel and another over the knee. This, you're told, is your protection and all kinds of mythical rumors surround wearing these. This is worn by both men and women.In the Mormon temple wedding ceremony, the man and the woman are joined "for time and eternity". The woman, during the ceremony, must tell the man what her temple secret name is. He does not tell her his. It is by this name, according to the Mormons, that the man will resurrect her IF she's faithful. In Mormon heaven #1, men will have multiple wives and create worlds. These wives will make spirit children and work in the heavenly kitchens under their husband's direction (he is 'god' after all!). In the endowment ceremony, the men sit on one side and the women sit on the other side (of the room). The first oath is for the women to stand and take an oath to obey their husbands. Next the men stand and take an oath to obey 'god'. You'd love the film they show in the temple for this ceremony. It's of their version of the creation, Adam Eve who are visited by Satan and also by 3 apostles led by Peter. I'll never forget Satan looking at the audience while the picture darkens except around his eyes. Satan says, "If these people don't live up to the promises made here today, they'll be in my power." Quite dramatic.They DO use the bee both in temples (I've been to several temples) and it is found at Brigham Young University as well. Also the state police have the beehive on the doors of all their cars. Beehives/bees are found on the doorknobs of temple doors in Salt Lake.Needless to say, Mormons will pale horrified if they've been through the temple and you tell them what I told you in the second paragraph above.With warm regards,Enigma
