Re: AntispamSniper in Commercial and FREE version

[Alastair Scott]

On 10/07/2006 at 18:10 Henk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 12:05:30 +0200GMT (10-7-2006, 12:05 +0200, where I
> live), Marek Mikus wrote:

>> developer of AntispamSniper released FREE version of its plugin, this
>> version misses some advanced features (DNSBL, deleting spam on server,
>> Anti-phishing etc.), but it is fully functional and with no trial.

>> Download:
>> http://antispamsniper.com/thebat_plugin.html

>> Upgrade info:
>> http://antispamsniper.com/upgrade.html

> Can this be used next to Bayes Filter Plugin or?

There is no technical reason why not. However, the author doesn't recommend it. 
Quote:

"It is recommended to remove any other installed anti-spam plug-ins from The 
Bat!. If you have several plug-ins installed, then the overall rating for 
messages is evaluated according to special parameter in The Bat! settings. It 
is "Average" by default and this means that the rating will be evaluated as 
average between the rating obtained from each plug-in. "Maximum" and "Minimum" 
mean that the maximum or minimum rating from all values will be taken as 
overall rating. Plug-ins are not learning from each other and that is why there 
is no sense in installing several plug-ins simultaneously. The classification 
quality will be approximately equal to the quality of the plug-in with the 
worst characteristics. Moreover, the less learned plug-in will be unable to 
learn normally. The more learned plug-in will correctly classify the messages 
unknown to less learned plug-in and therefore it will never learn such 
messages."

I would have to lie down for a few hours in a darkened room to fully digest 
that reasoning, but it seems plausible ;)

Alastair
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Folder views don't "stick"

[Alastair Scott]

Having come back to TB! after about 4 years away I don't have "history" on 
this, so cannot tell whether it is specific to 3.80.06. But ...

I am having trouble getting views to "stick" on folders. To start with I set a 
view called "Default View" then applied it to all folders. Some time later I 
decided to set a second view called "Default View (Outgoing)" and apply it to 
Outbox and Sent Mail folders for each account.

No matter what I do (right mouse button on folder, then Folder View Mode; 
Alt-Enter; Options, then Preferences, then View Mode, then Use By ... and apply 
to each folder) the "... (Outgoing)" view doesn't "stick" in the view pane; the 
columns in "Default View" (renamed "Default View (Incoming)") remain visible 
even though Folder View Mode has the "... (Outgoing)" option ticked).

Help!

Alastair
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Re: Folder views don't "stick"

[Alastair Scott]

On 11/07/2006 at 02:06 Stuart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello Alastair,
> Monday, July 10, 2006, 2:17:17 PM, you wrote:

>> Having come back to TB! after about 4 years away I don't have
>> "history" on this, so cannot tell whether it is specific to 3.80.06. But ...

>> I am having trouble getting views to "stick" on folders. To start
>> with I set a view called "Default View" then applied it to all
>> folders. Some time later I decided to set a second view called
>> "Default View (Outgoing)" and apply it to Outbox and Sent Mail folders for 
>> each account.

>> No matter what I do (right mouse button on folder, then Folder View
>> Mode; Alt-Enter; Options, then Preferences, then View Mode, then Use
>> By ... and apply to each folder) the "... (Outgoing)" view doesn't
>> "stick" in the view pane; the columns in "Default View" (renamed
>> "Default View (Incoming)") remain visible even though Folder View
>> Mode has the "... (Outgoing)" option ticked).

> Make sure to set View/Global View Mode to None.

Fixed. Thanks!

Alastair
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Re: AntispamSniper in Commercial and FREE version

[Alastair Scott]

On 28/07/2006 at 16:33 Henk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> I have installed this program/plugin 3 weeks ago and I must say that I
> am impressed the way it works/behaves. I will keep on using it.

Agreed - finally, in Windows, something as good as the astonishing SpamSieve on 
OS X <http://c-command.com/spamsieve/> which I previously thought was 
unbeatable!

In fact, it is so impressive I will be buying the paying version although I 
don't need it (the comments above concern the free version ...).

Alastair
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The 'cannot read email from POP3 server more than once' problem again ...

[Alastair Scott]

I've been looking at the 'can only connect once to POP3' problem with
three email clients (Outlook Express, The Bat! and AK-Mail
www.akmail.com), three POP3 servers (pop3.lineone.net, ice.cream.org and
mail.btinternet.com) and two operating systems (Windows 95, Windows
2000 - I don't have access to Windows 98, alas).

>From various trials, and conversations on ICQ, the problem looks like
something to do with the interaction between The Bat! and the Windows
2000 TCP/IP stack.

The problem, as noted before, is that, with Win2K, The Bat! can only read the POP3 
server once in a session; second and subsequent reads stick and the only cure is to 
close and restart The Bat!

I also note that sending email via smtp.lineone.net or ice.cream.org also hangs if the 
corresponding POP3 server has been interrogated; thus the only way to send email at 
all using The Bat! is to disable the 'check on starting' and 'automatic check every N 
minutes' options and, in fact, not check email at all until you've composed and sent 
your email(s).

What I've found:

1. All three programs send and receive email perfectly with Win95.

2. Outlook Express and AK-Mail send and receive email perfectly with Win2K; The Bat! 
fails.

3. Which POP3 server is used doesn't matter; all three programs work (or don't work) 
irrespective of which of the three servers are used.

4. The time between checking email twice on the same server doesn't matter; whether it 
is immediately after the last check, or several minutes after it, The Bat! fails under 
Win2K (but works under Win95) and the other two programs work under Win2K and Win95.

5. The Bat!'s settings (such as toggling 'send and receive at the same time') don't 
matter; I've tried all possible permutations and still see the problem.

6. An interesting discovery: I have a personal firewall, ZoneLabs'
ZoneAlarm (www.zonelabs.com), installed on the Win2K machine. On the
second and subsequent attempts by The Bat! to read any of the three
POP3 servers ZoneAlarm catches attempts by them to access
'non-standard' ports (generally in the 1030 to 1060 range), raising an
alert. There are no such alerts following the first attempt by The
Bat! or with Outlook Express or AK-Mail.

I will do whatever is needed to provide more data. For the moment,
here's a session with Outlook Express to show what is flying back and
forth in a working session (mail.btinternet.com omitted as it's
similar to pop3.lineone.net).

Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901
POP3 Log started at 06/29/2000 09:12:24
POP3: 09:12:26 [rx] +OK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
POP3: 09:12:26 [tx] USER alastair
POP3: 09:12:26 [rx] +OK
POP3: 09:12:26 [tx] PASS *
POP3: 09:12:26 [rx] +OK
POP3: 09:12:26 [tx] STAT
POP3: 09:12:26 [rx] +OK 3 3527
POP3: 09:12:26 [tx] LIST
POP3: 09:12:26 [rx] +OK
POP3: 09:12:26 [rx] 1 944
POP3: 09:12:26 [rx] 2 1599
POP3: 09:12:26 [rx] 3 984
POP3: 09:12:26 [rx] .
POP3: 09:12:26 [tx] UIDL 1
POP3: 09:12:27 [rx] +OK 1 962234045.27814.ice
POP3: 09:12:27 [tx] UIDL
POP3: 09:12:27 [rx] +OK
POP3: 09:12:27 [rx] 1 962234045.27814.ice
POP3: 09:12:27 [rx] 2 962241836.31956.ice
POP3: 09:12:27 [rx] 3 962264558.5839.ice
POP3: 09:12:27 [rx] .
POP3: 09:12:27 [tx] TOP 1 0
POP3: 09:12:27 [rx] +OK
POP3: 09:12:28 [tx] TOP 2 0
POP3: 09:12:28 [rx] +OK
POP3: 09:12:28 [tx] TOP 3 0
POP3: 09:12:29 [rx] +OK
POP3: 09:12:29 [tx] RETR 1
POP3: 09:12:30 [rx] +OK
POP3: 09:12:30 [tx] RETR 2
POP3: 09:12:31 [rx] +OK
POP3: 09:12:31 [tx] RETR 3
POP3: 09:12:32 [rx] +OK
POP3: 09:12:32 [tx] QUIT
POP3: 09:12:33 [rx] +OK
POP3: 09:12:38 [rx] +OK QPOP (version 2.52) at shaggy.lineone.net starting.
POP3: 09:12:38 [tx] USER alastair.scott
POP3: 09:12:39 [rx] +OK Password required for alastair.scott.
POP3: 09:12:39 [tx] PASS ***
POP3: 09:12:40 [rx] +OK alastair.scott has 1 message (1069 octets).
POP3: 09:12:40 [tx] STAT
POP3: 09:12:40 [rx] +OK 1 1069
POP3: 09:12:40 [tx] LIST
POP3: 09:12:40 [rx] +OK 1 messages (1069 octets)
POP3: 09:12:40 [rx] 1 1069
POP3: 09:12:40 [rx] .
POP3: 09:12:40 [tx] UIDL 1
POP3: 09:12:40 [rx] +OK 1 e6e9812616f9b7335a146dac1b18624f
POP3: 09:12:40 [tx] UIDL
POP3: 09:12:40 [rx] +OK uidl command accepted.
POP3: 09:12:41 [rx] 1 e6e9812616f9b7335a146dac1b18624f
POP3: 09:12:41 [rx] .
POP3: 09:12:41 [tx] TOP 1 0
POP3: 09:12:41 [rx] +OK 1069 octets
POP3: 09:12:45 [tx] RETR 1
POP3: 09:12:47 [rx] +OK 1069 octets
POP3: 09:12:48 [tx] QUIT
POP3: 09:12:48 [rx] +OK Pop server at shaggy.lineone.net signing off.

I like The Bat! and want to register it, but obviously cannot do so
with such a serious problem outstanding.

Alastair

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Re: The 'cannot read email from POP3 server more than once' problem again ...

[Alastair Scott]

Ming-Li wrote:

ML> I'm no expert and I'm afraid I can offer little help.  Yet it
ML> appears to me that the problem is more than that.  I'm using
ML> Win2k with TB! and I've seen no such problem since day one.  I
ML> believe many people on the list use TB! with Win2k as well.

The ZoneAlarm suggestion is interesting; problems with the personal
firewall may well be the problem and I'll find out later today (as you can
see I'm posting this with TB! so am on the "wrong" machine :)

ML> Could you tell me how you get the detailed POP3 communications
ML> log? Is it a built-in function of OE 5.5, Win2k or from a
ML> 3rd-party utility? (I've just left OE 5, but never tried 5.5,
ML> and don't remember there's such function in OE. And Win2k is too
ML> new for me to know much details.) Too bad TB! can't be set to
ML> provide logs in such detail.

For Outlook Express 5.01 select Tools | Options from the menu bar, then
press the Maintenance tab and, at the bottom of the tab, there's a
'Troubleshooting' section. Check the 'Mail' check box and, after you've run
OE for a bit, search for 'pop3.log' on your hard drive. That contains the
information received by OE from the POP3 server.

Unfortunately TB! parses the information it received from the POP3 server
before displaying it in the Log Panel (Ctrl-Shift-L) :/

(AK-Mail stores the information it receives from the POP3 server in
encrypted form and can display it, via an inbuilt viewer, from within
itself).

Alastair

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Re: The 'cannot read email from POP3 server more than once' problem again ...

[Alastair Scott]

Allie wrote:

AM> The above instructions do solve the problem and I hope this helps. :-)
AM> Most who have reported this problem have indeed been using ZoneAlarm.
AM> Another work around is to use a local POP server. XRay is a nice one.

It does - I can now use the three POP3 and SMTP servers ad lib. Many thanks!

(One mild warning is that, when you enter the POP3/SMTP server details into
ZoneAlarm, you have to be connected to the Internet first. ZA resolves the
IP address of the server immediately so, if you aren't online, it complains
with a rather obscure error message ...)

Alastair

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Re[2]: concerning a template suggestion

[Alastair Scott]

On 17 November 2001 at 2:43 pm Peter wrote:

> Hello Rick,

> On Samstag, 17. November 2001 at 09:35:51 you wrote (at least in
> part):

RR>> ... I do think an option to "Not use template" would be a nice
RR>> feature ...

> *hmmm* ... If you don't want to use templates at any time, but only
> for specified contacts you can delete the templates in account
> properties. To be absolutely sure you can insert the already known
> '%CLEAR' macro there.
> If you save the default templates already there into QuickTemplates
> before deleting them you can also access them manually if needed.
> But to be honest: don't we all need some kind of templates _at least_
> for replying? I mean ... somehow the original text should be contained
> within my answer, shouldn't it? So what about clearing
> account-new-template and optimizing/shrinking account-reply-template
> and account-forward-template as the best compromise?

As a guide, my three "really simple" templates are:

"" [new]

"On %ODATE at %OTIME %TOFNAME wrote:

%QUOTES

%CURSOR" [reply]

"%CURSOR

BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE

From:%OTONAME
Date:%ODATE at %OTIME
Subject: %OSUBJ

%TEXT

-END FORWARDED MESSAGE-" [forward]

(Don't paste or type the quotes "" ... the 'new' template is blank,
for example)

The 'reply' one is particularly useful, as it puts

'On 17 November 2001 at 6.00pm Fred wrote'

at the start then quotes the text of the original message and puts the
cursor there ready for typing the response. This always provokes "wow,
how did you do that? did you type these in?" from Outlook [Express]
users ;)

[I also prefer to use 'None' as the sender information for quotes in
replies, which means that an angled bracket only precedes each quoted
line; anything else results in strange text like "Cac>" preceding each
quoted line ...!]

Alastair


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Re: moving address book to wok

[Alastair Scott]

On 17 November 2001 at 8:45 pm Rick wrote:

> Bat List,

>I'm in the process of doing some major house cleaning on the
>Pegasus address book that I've imported into TB (which imported
>nicely I might add). The question I have is what address book files do I need to
>bring over to my work computer where I will also be using TB. I saw
>several files in The Bat! directory that look related to the
>address book, but I want to make certain of the correct ones. Also
>is there a templates file that I could also copy over to my work
>machine as well?

The easiest way to do this is to try Tools | Backup and only tick
Account Options, Personal Address Books and Global Options, then pick
the address book(s) by name using the Choose ... button. This avoids
having to guess what the filename is, and Account Options picks up the
templates.

Transfer the file you save (second step of that dialogue) to the new
machine then, on the other machine, do Tools | Restore and import that
file.

[The Backup and Restore options are much underestimated].

Alastair


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Re: Search of two fields

[Alastair Scott]

On 17 November 2001 at 6:50 pm Januk wrote:

> 4. Use an external program.  People have reported that they really
>like a program called Mailbag Assistant for their archiving needs.
>I personally haven't used it, but I have yet to hear a negative
>comment about this program.  The drawback of this solution is
>that the program isn't freeware.  However, it does allow you to
>migrate between many different e-mail programs with ease (at least,
>that's what the marketing department says.)
>

Yes, this is a phenomenal package - some people have suggested that
The Bat! should have statistics, rather like Eudora does, but this
goes way beyond what is done there, And it provides selective archive
and restore, export to and import from lots of formats, extraction of
any or all fields, scripting, regular expression and soundalike
searches, ... 

For someone who ran a busy campaign and got hundreds of emails a day
it was vital.

Alastair


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Re: wildcards searching

[Alastair Scott]

On 19 November 2001 at 4:58 pm Rick wrote:

> I'm having trouble searching my LDAP directory here at work on
> Exchange. It doesn't seem to like any wildcards. When searching I can
> put in 'A' for Name and I'll get back all the First names starting
> with A but I'd like to be able to search for all the Names and have
> them in this new address book I made. I was going to suck it up and
> just go through each letter of the alphabet which wouldn't be that big
> of a deal except for the fact that each search erases the previous
> search in my new address book. I tried searching the archives and the
> FAQ but didn't find stuff to really help me (or else I didn't look
> long enough:). The two quesions are:

> 1) Is it a problem on the Exchange server not letting me use wildcards
> to search? I've tried using * and % and no luck with either.

I think this is a server-based thing, or may not be possible at all
with Exchange Server; I tried, using both TB! and Outlook Express, to
search my work-based server with wildcards; nothing happened. However,
I can use partial matches (so "Green" would match everyone from "Aaron
Green" to "Zachary Green" :) 

> 2) If I decide to just go through each letter of the alphabet and
> search LDAP in order
> to populate the new address book how do I prevent the previous search
> from being deleted? ( I simply want to keep adding to the book with
> new searches ).

I have this problem as well with LDAP (existing results being wiped
out), and some other peculiarities; when I have more time I'll
investigate further.

Alastair


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When is an attached file saved?

[Alastair Scott]

I ask because I was sent a .EXE file as an attachment which contained
a virus (Hybris/D). This was correctly caught by F-Prot Antivirus;
although I deleted the email straight off it seems that the executable
was, at some point, saved in ...The Bat!\Mail\\Attach as
F-Prot caught it there this afternoon, nearly a day after the first
warning. 

Q: is an attachment routinely saved there (irrespective of what
happens to the accompanying email, including immediate manual
deletion) or did I do something to save it (by some action I missed
while recalling the sequence of events)?

If it is routinely saved, that would appear to be a Bad Thing!

Alastair


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Re[3]: moving address book to wok

[Alastair Scott]

On 19 November 2001 at 3:30 am Rick wrote:

> Thanks for the info... question though, if I click on "Account
> Options" is this going to mess up the way I connect to my accounts at
> work? At work I have to connect to my accounts differently since I'm
> going through an Exchange server and have to use IMAP4. I don't want
> to have to reconfigure my connections. Not sure if this is what is
> backed up when "account options" is selected if so I should probablly
> skip that checkbox?

I've never tried each option separately; I'd imagine rather a lot more
than the [POP3] mail servers would be skipped if you didn't check it.
So, whatever way you go, you'll be recreating some data.

(There also appear to be some bugs with Backup/Restore - some trivial
settings, such as the folder fonts and the taskbar/system tray
appearance, appear not to be carried across. I've filed a bug report
and will see what response there is).

Alastair


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Re: filtering on language

[Alastair Scott]

- Original Message -
From: "Jan Rifkinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "TB! UDL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 20 November 2001 1:02 pm
Subject: filtering on language


> Hello TB! Listers.
>
>   I've been getting a lot of msgs like the one below & its
>   really annoying.
>
> > Original Message Starts <--
> www.internethaber.com yilin en iyi
> ancorhman_n_ belirliyor.
> Siz de oy kullanarak tercihinizi koyun.
>
> www.internethaber.com ve www.gazeteoku.com
> ile biz haberin tekelini kirdik; gelin siz
> de bu siteleri ziyaret ederek, bu tekeli
> kirin.
> -> Original Message Ends <---
>
>   Can anyone imagine a built in macro that identifies
>   language used, i.e. "%IF not %English"? Does anyone think
>   this is even possible?

It's certainly possible through some sort of dictionary comparison, but that
would probably be fatally slow on modest PCs (imagine checking a 2,000 word
email :)

There may be more clever statistical methods - the above is Turkish, and
it's pretty obvious the relative frequency of various letters (eg "z" and
"i") is entirely different from that of English - but more similar languages
(eg two Indo-European ones ;) might not be so simple to differentiate. I am
not a professional linguist so I can't comment definitively.

Alastair



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Re: filtering on language

[Alastair Scott]

- Original Message -
From: "Thomas F" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Alastair Scott on TBUDL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 20 November 2001 2:49 pm
Subject: Re: filtering on language


> Hello Alastair,
>
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:29:05 -0000 GMT (20/11/2001, 22:29 +0800 GMT),
> Alastair Scott wrote:
>
> AS> There may be more clever statistical methods - the above is Turkish,
and
> AS> it's pretty obvious the relative frequency of various letters (eg "z"
and
> AS> "i") is entirely different from that of English -
>
> This would be difficult to implement in a TB filter. But I just had an
> idea:
>
> You can actually filter for certain words that are likely to occur in
> most Turkish-language spams, such as siteler (web sites), for example.
> You can also use other simple words from the Turkish language. Without
> a scoring mechanism - i.e. just if one of those five or ten words is
> found, it's a hit - make your own, very simple, language parser in the
> form of a TB filter.

That would work - translations of "sex" and "money" would probably catch 95
per cent of spam ;)

The frequency analysis is actually very subtle - two other languages which
have lots of "z"s that come to mind are German and Polish. The huge mass of
rules needed to differentiate one language from another would probably be
just as slow as the dictionary lookup.

Alastair



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LDAP revealed

[Alastair Scott]

I had some time and decided to get this (populating my own address
book from a LDAP address book) working. Done as follows:

1. Set up two new address books.

a. The first is the source, and has properties:

Name - Global Address List (for example)

Use this book as default ... - not ticked

This address book is associated with an LDAP server - ticked

LDAP server details - filled in

Return maximum 100 matches (say) - the default is 1 which won't get
you very far with a big company :)

b. The second is the target, and has properties:

Name - Alastair's Address Book (for example)

Use this book as default ... - ticked

This address book is associated with an LDAP server - not ticked

LDAP server details - not filled in

2. This done, the task is to build up your personal address book (the
target) by doing LDAP searches on the LDAP address list (the source)
then dragging matched names from source to target. To do this:

a. In The Bat! press F8 then F7, which brings up the LDAP search
window (see the picture as attached);

b. Type in the partial* name you're searching for, then tick only the
name of the source in the bottom pane (green arrows);

c. Press Start and wait for the the matched names, if any, to appear
in the right-hand pane (behind the LDAP search window);

d. Drag and drop the names you want into the target (red arrow);

e. Press New Search, then go back to step b.

By doing b-e over and over again you can gradually build up your
personal address book by drag and drop; you can always see what you've
dragged and dropped by clicking on the target's icon (the 'blue book'
in the left-hand pane) then going back to the source (the 'green
book') before doing another search.

I find that, if you make one address book both source and target, you
get nowhere; the search results _are_ the address book as each LDAP
search, as far as I can tell, replaces the address book contents (!)
Unfortunately, this part of The Bat! is both badly documented and has
a confusing, because over-complex, user interface :(

Alastair

* On my server the only match is on surnames (the addresses are stored
as ) and at least three characters have to be
typed otherwise there's nothing returned.


tb-ldap.png
Description: PNG image

Re: Dead animal

[Alastair Scott]

On 22 November 2001 at 5:27 am Alexander wrote:

> Hello Batmans,

> About half years I've visited last time that place.
> Nothing happens, nothing changes, the same build, the same
> questions... It seems animal to be dead and smell

I notice Opera has the same problem (small company with everyone
expecting a new version every 10 minutes and personal feedback to
every query); that's a downside of being close to your users.

Conversely, I don't think people get excited about Microsoft bringing
out, or not bringing out, a new version of Internet Explorer or
Outlook Express. Especially as these are running into diminishing
returns; The Bat! is the same. After all, it's only an email package,
albeit a very powerful one.

(In fact, given Microsoft's enormous resources, one could wonder why
it takes 18 months to 2 years to get the next version of Office out.
On second thoughts, shhh ... I might give them ideas ;)

Alastair


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Re: can i recreate folder structure?

[Alastair Scott]

On 22 November 2001 at 5:09 pm atelier1 wrote:

> i have serious problems with my computer several os's are crashing,i
> did a reformat and new install of xp and w2k, installed thebat
> ,pointed to the old mail dir ( as outlined in previous posts)all
> worked fine again, until...the system started to crash again ,had
> to do many scandisks,maildir got messed up , i refreshed from a cd
> backup several times(the bat backup is not working ).
> now, after i find out what the reason for the crashing is ,and the
> problem is solved, i want to install the bat again, no reg settings
> import,no account info,no filters,i just want to be able to have my
> folder structure back with the mail in the folders again.
> Would this be possible, if so how would i go about this?
> Thank you in advance

This requires someone more technically competent than me in the file
structure to answer.

However, what is really needed reminds me of a feature request I had
in mind and forgot to make. In Tools | Backup, change the option from:

[x] Folders with Messages

to:

[x] Folders
[x] with Messages

(Obviously checking the second has an implied checking of the first).

Several times I've wanted to clear out messages but retain folder
structure (at last count 65 folders, so not simple to recreate);
without an option to restore the folder structure (after deleting
everything) the only way of doing this is laboriously deleting
messages from each folder ... unless someone knows better :) 

Alastair


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Re: netscape 6.2

[Alastair Scott]

- Original Message -
From: "Gerard de Vries" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Call me Babo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 26 November 2001 8:07 am
Subject: Re: netscape 6.2


>
> Saturday, November 24, 2001, 2:10:04 PM, you wrote:
>
> CmB> Dear listar,
>
> CmB>   I just install N6.2 ... and it looks much better then the prev.
> CmB>   verions ( I mean 6xx) :>
> CmB>   the only one problem I have with it - I can't use thebat!153d as
> CmB>   email client.
> CmB>   I installed N4.79 aswell + nsproto - in 479 it works. but in NN6 -
> CmB>   not :<
> CmB>   I did click in preferences "simple MAPI" and "assosiate"..
> CmB>   but it doesn't help.
> CmB>   Any help?
> CmB> thank You very much
>
>
> Hi Call,
>
> Isn't the email package a separate install option, meaning if you
> install it it assumes you want to use it?
>
> Best regards,
>  Gerard

This appears to be the case with Netscape: however, it is _not_ the case
with Mozilla.

Unlike Netscape it has a "Use Mozilla Mail as the default mail application"
checkbox in Preferences | Mail & Newsgroups. If this is not checked The
Bat!, once the options described have been set up from within, remains the
default mail package.

Moral - uninstall Netscape and install Mozilla. After all, the first is
based on (an older version of) the second ...

Alastair



_
This message has been checked for all known viruses by the 
MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit
http://www.messagelabs.com/stats.asp


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Three redundant options?

[Alastair Scott]

Just noticed - what do Folder | Browse (and Account | Refresh Folders) and
Folder | Refresh do that is useful?

Folder | Browse appears to open the currently highlit message, which is
pointless from the menu bar as there are are several more sensible ways of
doing this, and the second two appear to do nothing at all - I don't even
see the tell-tale flicker of something being refreshed.

I appreciate that the second two might have some sort of meaning in
multi-user situations, but with a single user they seem to be redundant.

Alastair




_
This message has been checked for all known viruses by the 
MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit
http://www.messagelabs.com/stats.asp


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(SOT) Re: HTML-mail

[Alastair Scott]

Don wrote:

> As much as some of us hate it, html mail is here to stay, and any mail
> client that doesn't offer the option to compose in this format is
> doomed in the long run. I despise tacky Outlook html templates but
> people love using them.
> 
> The Bat *needs* to be able to compose in html format. As far as
> viewing html mails, we should have the option of using the Bat's
> built-in limited viewer (which is enought for my own needs, anyhow) or
> selecting Microsoft's viewer if we want to see the mail with images,
> etc.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that TB! is doing the right thing
(read but not write).

The problem is that home and business have radically different
requirements.

People at home write HTML, quite often without knowing it, and are very
lax in handling emails; I am a member of two musicians' lists (the
participants being very much users of a PC as a means to an end, as
opposed to users of a PC) and viruses were turning up almost weekly
until I persuaded the list owner to set up their software to strip out
attachments.

People at work tend not to write HTML. There is often almost an
over-reaction to viruses; many companies I work with strip out HTML and
check for viruses at the server as well as on the desktop, but some go
further. One client strips out all attachments bar PDF (Word documents
and PowerPoint presentations have to be converted before sending or they
bounce), strips out HTML, plasters disclaimers everywhere, sets up NT to
prevent any software installation or alteration at all and reduces
Internet "access" to the intranet and one external site (news.bbc.co.uk)
:)

I have a feeling that strong feeling against viruses will spread,
particularly as broadband connections become common, and there will be a
fork; email will be for plain ASCII and attachments, whereas the bells
and whistles will move to instant messaging.

Given all this, I would not encourage people to use HTML in emails, but
they have to be able to read it (or remove it) :)

Alastair


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Re: HTML-mail

[Alastair Scott]

Marck wrote:

> Hi Geoff,
> 
> On 01 December 2001 at 11:54:50 [GMT+] (which was 11:54 where I
> live) Geoff Lane wrote to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and made these
> points:
> 
> GL> Personally, I feel that the *option* of using HTML would add value
> GL> to TB. (... but plain text should be the default:-)
> 
> This is now known to be on its way - early next year is the intended
> release date.

As per a previous suggestion, this should _definitely_ be optional -
many people, myself included, will deliberately not use it, and it is
sure to be a sizeable addition.

(I'm currently using Becky!; although it has vices, most notably a poor
editor, plugin support is one area in which it is better than TB!
Particularly good is a plugin which supports reading and posting of
news; the integration is seamless).

Alastair


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Account | Clone

[Alastair Scott]

Having spent a long time creating 3 new accounts then copying
information, by hand, from them, such a command is needed. (Copying
the account-wide templates is particularly awkward; I had to cut and
paste them into a text file then cut and paste them from there into
each account).

The command is almost self-explanatory; it would create a new account
called "Copy of " and retain all existing
settings bar the inbound and outbound servers (so that the user
doesn't forget to change them).

Alastair


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Cut and paste of attachments

[Alastair Scott]

>From an existing message ... why not?

(I ask because, tired, I was forgetting and trying to cut and paste
files from a message to the desktop. Nothing happened :)

I suspect it may have been ruled out to make handling messages
"deliberately awkward"; probably a good idea, given the dangers of
accidentally running attachments ... 

Alastair


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Re: Ticker Lifted?

[Alastair Scott]

On 9 December 2001 at 12:56 pm Nick wrote:

> This little app here:

> http://www.tickermymail.com/

> sure looks like it was lifted straight from TB!

On a second line of attack I had a look at the Association of
Shareware Professionals' site (of which the author of that program is
a member) and, in particular, its membership standards:

http://www.asp-shareware.org/memberstandards.asp

Incredibly, there appears to be no requirement that any product being
sold by a member is original! In fact, the whole statement is
extremely short and doesn't have the tiresome (but crucial) preamble
that defines terms like "shareware".

Alastair


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Re: Filters

[Alastair Scott]

On 9 December 2001 at 6:46 pm brett wrote:

> Hello All,

> I'm new to TB! and am struggling to find a way to create a filter which will leave 
>any mail with attachments on the server (without deleting it from the server).

> Suggestions much appreciated!

Me too - I thought this would be easy, but it isn't. I eventually
cracked it thus:

(i) in Account | Properties ..., select the Mail Management option
from the list on the left and change Message Management to 'Leave
messages on server'.

(ii) in Account | Sorting Office/Filters, set up a new filter with the
following options changed from the default:

Rule tab, Filtering string = @, Location = Anywhere, Presence = Yes

[in other words, filter all messages as an email message will always
contain "@" somewhere]

Actions tab, 'Delete the message from the server' ticked

Advanced tab, 'Message has no attachments' ticked

(iii) move this new filter to the top of the list of filters.

[to ensure that it is executed before any other filters]

Thereafter all messages will be deleted from the server if they don't
have attachments, but will remain on the server if they do.

The difficult bit is the combination of changing the account
properties and writing a filter; it appears you can't do what you want
to do with a filter on its own.

Alastair


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Re[2]: Filters

[Alastair Scott]

On 9 December 2001 at 8:13 pm Lars wrote:

> Hi Alastair,
> On 9  Dec 2001 at 19:11:52 [GMT +], you wrote:

>>> I'm new to TB! and am struggling to find a way to create a filter
>>> which will leave any mail with attachments on the server (without
>>> deleting it from the server).

AS>> (ii) in Account | Sorting Office/Filters, set up a new filter with
AS>> the following options changed from the default:

AS>> [filter details snipped]

> You should also activate "Continue processing with other filters",
> otherwise your filtering would stop after this filter (which is at the
> top of the list :-( ). All your other filters would be rather useless
> with this one. ;-)

I always forget that one :)

Would it not be safer to default 'Continue processing ...' to on?
After all, with 90 per cent* of filters doing so won't make any
difference as the message will have been moved to a folder :)

Alastair

* I think this is a fair guess as to what most filters do.


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Re[2]: Garbage filter(s)

[Alastair Scott]

On 20 December 2001 at 8:54 pm Jan wrote:

>   But I'm constantly looking for ways to improve ways to rid
>   myself of this disgusting side of email.

I get few at home thanks to careful use of email addresses,

As for the work ones (I've had the same email address for 8 years and,
in the early days, used to post to Usenet without disguising the email
address ... !), I get about 90% of them by a simple filter:

, Recipient, No -> Delete the message

(as they do not have  in the header) and putting all the
filters for mailing list posts (the only other type of email with
 not in the header) _before_ that one, so all incoming
emails from mailing lists are hived off to folders before the spam
filter is hit.

The other 10%, which _are_ sent directly to the email address, are not
really possible to filter out without elaborate matches on subjects
and so on. As life is too short for such poking around I delete them.

(En passant, has anyone noticed that spam sent directly to the email
address [in To:] is becoming more common? A year ago it was 1%, if
that, of incoming spam).

Alastair


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Re[3]: BAT's word wrapping abilities...

[Alastair Scott]

On 29 December 2001 at 4:22 pm John wrote:

> I can't help wondering if the programmers are indulging the nerd,
> sorry, expert, users at the expense of the rest of us in this
> 'feature'. Agent, for example, seems to do this simple task without
> the need for weird key combinations every time you paste stuff in or
> go back and add to or delete an existing bit of text. It's the one
> thing that stops me recommending The Bat to friends who are accustomed
> to the ease of use of more run of the mill mail programs.

> My suggestion would be a configurable option so that the editor can
> behave either way - this would satisfy both camps. The auto-wrap
> feature as it stands is just not good enough, imho.

Agreed - it has a large number of options, but life is just too
short to explore them all and their interactions with one another. I
have editor settings I'm happy with, but I couldn't explain how I got
to those settings (probably trial and error in the past).

Like many facilities in TB! "beginner" and "expert" approaches would
be useful although hard work to implement; the program is phenomenally
powerful but all of that power is (potentially) exposed no matter who
the user is. 

Alastair



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Re: CNET Bat review (also line-wrap)

[Alastair Scott]

On 29 December 2001 at 6:02 pm Avenarius wrote:

> Hi Bat-fellows,

> need to brag about something: back in July I ventured to write a few
> succinct lines of appreciation of The Bat! at CNET's www.download.com.
> Tonight while casually browsing that server, I've noticed that the
> review has been picked by CNET as representative for introducing The
> Bat's features to potential new users.

It's a good one! Further down the thread there's a few interesting
comments (first in part):

"The interface for composing messages is among the worst I've seen. The
one in Pine (UNIX) is better, for crying out load. So if, say, you
reply to a message, there's all kinds of configuration options, but no
way to simply line-wrap the quoted text. Plus, if you have two
paragaraphs without a filler carriage return between them, the
autoformat jams them together. The autoformatter also seems to fill in
spaces so when you key upward you don't cling to the flush left words.
This proved to be incredibly annoying. And frustrating that there was
no way to tweak the options to fix this (especially given how many
other options could be changed). So I fled to PocoMail, and have been
quite pleased." 

"The editor for composing messages is SO bad, that it ruins an
otherwise very nice program."

Although I don't agree with the comment about PocoMail it all comes
back to the same point as before; because of the complexity of the
options and the interactions between them the author is confused!

That the editor is being rewritten is good. If one could embed inter
alia TextPad, NotePad or UltraEdit into TB! for good measure ... how
about an "editor plugin" like the "antivirus plugin"? :)

Alastair


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SOT: TB!-aware firewall

[Alastair Scott]

Just to note that the new Agnitum Outpost [Free] firewall* knows of
The Bat! - it has preset rules for it, as I found out to my surprise
when I first tried to retrieve email with the firewall installed.

(Quite what these preset rules _mean_ is to be determined; I've never
seen a firewall with so many options ...).

Alastair

* http://www.agnitum.com/download/outpostfree.html


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Re[2]: SOT: TB!-aware firewall

[Alastair Scott]

On 1 January 2002 at 7:09 pm Alan wrote:

> I just loaded the page and haven't looked at it yet. So I thought I'd
> ask this out of ignorance anyway (LOL).  Is this Outpost any better
> than, say, ZoneAlarm - also freeware?  Does it pass the tests at
> www.grc.com (such as the Shields Up! and more importantly the Leak
> Test)?  I have to wonder what the preset rules are.. All I can think of
> is that it allows TB to send and retrieve mail even if the Internet is
> "Locked" (if Outpost has such a feature as ZA).

"No" is the one-word answer ;)

As it turns out, I removed it because it "forgets" all the settings
after restarting the machine, and turns out to be too complex for not
enough gain. So I didn't have the chance to do the Gibson tests, much
as I'd have liked to.

It guesses what an application is trying to do on first connection to
The Internet and applies rules from templates (either specific ones
such as "The Bat!" or generic ones such as "browser"). Unfortunately
it sometimes guesses wrongly and undoing the mistake is awkward ...

I noted that, for some reason, the TB! log file is shorter when
Outpost is installed, which suggests that a transparent proxy or
similar is making its presence felt (there are various "ad filters"
and other plugins). From bad experiences with such transparent proxies
before (specifically Panda AntiVirus) this is not a good thing.

Alastair


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Panda Anti-Virus and PAVPROXY (once again)

[Alastair Scott]

>From conversations with two list members it turns out I'm not seeing
things; PAVPROXY.EXE (the Panda Anti-Virus transparent proxy which
scans emails without need for TB!'s new infrastructure for virus
checkers*) is _still_ misbehaving, crashing and confusing TB! on
download.

This is several versions of PAV after I first noted the crashes, and
I've been round and round in circles with Panda Software without any
real progress, so have been trying to work out myself what's causing
the problem given that they appear not to be capable of, or
particularly interested in, doing so. So far I've managed to telnet
into my mail servers and retrieve three email messages on which
PAVPROXY chokes**; unfortunately, there's nothing obviously unusual in
them apart from particularly long URLs (>~80 characters).

That may be a hint of what's wrong. Can anyone else brave enough to
use Panda confirm? (Not necessarily this minute!)

Alastair

* in 1.54 betas.

** PAVPROXY crashes on downloading them; removing them from the
server via the command line then restarting PAVPROXY and downloading
again doesn't crash PAVPROXY.


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Re: tB! v 3.0?

[Alastair Scott]

On 5 January 2002 at 9:39 am daveiw wrote:

> Hi all and happy New Year!

> Any  ideas  when version 3 will be released, and what extras it will
> have please?

The current betas (eventually leading up to version 2.00) have covered
a huge distance; the best way to see this is to download and install one if
you're feeling brave. The easiest way to do so (and read the reviews,
of which mine is the most recent :) is via

http://fileforum.betanews.com/detail.php3?fid=942557075

(The current betas are sound; there are some glitches, but nothing
that has a serious effect on emailing).

TB!'s version numbering is conservative; the change from 1.49 (when I
started) to 1.54 beta would've resulted in 2 or 3 major releases from
most other companies. (Compare, for example, Outlook Express 5 to
Outlook Express 6, which had little real change).

Alastair


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Re: Removing Microsoft Outlook from the system

[Alastair Scott]

On 5 January 2002 at 10:39 am Gerard wrote:

> Hi Bat Users,

>  I have a little problem.
>  Somehow MS Outlook keeps associating itself with files from type EML.
>  I do not use Outlook and I have TB associate itself with EML files each
>  time. I guess the best way would be to remove Outlook al together, but
>  I cant find it in the add/remove program option.

>  Does anyone know what I can do about this behavior, or how to remove
>  Outlook al together?

This is becoming a common problem; if you install a number of media
players (eg Winamp and RealOne) you'll find that each of them load a
little utility at startup to grab hold of "their" file extensions
before Microsoft Media Player does so. Bizarre but true.

Outlook or Outlook Express?

If Outlook, remove it using the Office installation utility ;)

Outlook Express is entirely different. If you have later versions of
Windows (I have XP here) you can't remove it cleanly; there is nothing
in the Control Panel to do so and it is tied in with Windows so
deleting files may be dangerous. With earlier versions (eg my office
machine, which has Windows 95), it _does_ have a Control Panel
add/remove entry for Outlook Express.

However, this may be of interest:

http://www.98lite.net/

Alastair


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Re: tB! v 3.0?

[Alastair Scott]

On 5 January 2002 at 11:52 am Ottar wrote:

> Hello Alastair,

> Saturday, January 05, 2002, 11:55:00 AM, you wrote to TBUDL:

AS>> (The current betas are sound; there are some glitches, but nothing
AS>> that has a serious effect on emailing).

>   You beta-folks? Do you just install the beta in your message base
>   and continue using the program. OK I will take a backup first, but
>   the mail I recieve after the backup will be hadled by the beta. Is
>   there any risk of losing important mail? Do you take any
>   other precautions?

I've never taken any precautions other than the daily backup from TB!
to CD-RW (using Tools | Backup ...) which I'd do anyway.

All I do is rename the program file to THEBAT.BAK and copy the
beta THEBAT.EXE from the distribution archive into TB!'s home
directory. I've never had any difficulties with going between beta and
release versions, and have tested both 1.53 and 1.54 betas.

Alastair


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Re: tB! v 3.0?

[Alastair Scott]

On 5 January 2002 at 11:54 am Allie wrote:

> @ 10:55:00 + [ Sat, 5 Jan 2002], Alastair Scott [AS] thoughtfully
> wrote the following:
> ...
AS>> TB!'s version numbering is conservative; the change from 1.49
AS>> (when I started) to 1.54 beta would've resulted in 2 or 3 major
AS>> releases from most other companies. (Compare, for example, Outlook
AS>> Express 5 to Outlook Express 6, which had little real change).

> Agreed!!

> I wonder at times, knowing of the power of human perception, if this
> is a good thing.

Probably not - if you look at various places where review comments are
posted (eg www.betanews.com) there are complaints that TB! "hasn't
reached version 2 although it was promised in 1957" and suchlike
although, really, it's at about version 4 on modern numbering systems
(those artificially accelerated by the ability of the Internet to
easily distribute minor changes with major hyperbole) ...

For example, the latest beta change (adding SSL "port 995" facilities)
would've provoked a press release and fanfare of trumpets from many
others I'm sure ;)

Alastair


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Re: Folder Columns

[Alastair Scott]

On 6 January 2002 at 5:45 am Dwight wrote:

> On 5 Jan 2002, 1:07:03 PM, Andrew Aronoff wrote:

>> IMHO, the program should do the reverse. Folder columns should use
>> shared settings _unless_ a box is checked.

> I would second this suggestion. This is especially important in the
> beta series, where some things can cause automatic creation of
> folders.

And thirded; I made this suggestion about 6 months ago so, if people
are coming up with it independently, it must be good ;)

[And, if it were implemented, a way to retrospectively fix existing
folders so that they all used the shared settings would be useful;
mine are a jumble of settings].

Alastair


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Re: Colour group

[Alastair Scott]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: MD5

On 6 January 2002 at 9:18 pm Luc wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1

> Hi list,

>   can somebody give me some feedback on colour groups? What arte they
>   good for and how do they work? The help files are a bit cryptic ;)

They're for automatically highlighting defined groups of messages -
for example, all the observation reports I get are highlit red and
bold when unread, which is reasonably useful :)

To use them you do two things:

(i) use Options | Message List Colours to set a colour definition up;

(ii) use Account | Sorting Office/Filters to apply that colour
definition to a (sub)set of the incoming messages.

An example (my folders, naming conventions etcetera) - to colour all
incoming messages for this list purple, with unread ones in bright
purple and bold text:

(i) Group name = [tbudl], handle = 1, colour of read = Purple, colour
of unread = Fuchsia, all other settings unchanged.

(ii) Filter name = [tbudl], Move to folder Inbox/Lists/[tbudl],
Actions | Set the message's colour group = ticked, dropdown box below
= [tbudl]

The only slight problem (?) is that messages already filtered without
the colour group set up don't change colour group automatically; you
have to drag them back to Inbox and then do Re-filter messages (right
mouse butto from Inbox folder in pane).

There are doubtless other ways of using colour groups, but the above
is what I do.

Alastair

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Re: Should I dump Outlook 2000?

[Alastair Scott]

On 7 January 2002 at 7:09 pm Jon wrote:

> I haven't yet moved over to TB from Outlook 2000 yet, so I am seeking
> opinions from others about whether or not I should do so.

> For those who have made the shift, what are the biggest benefits you have
> noticed? What is the biggest downside you have found?

That'll provoke a huge postbag but I feel no desire not to contribute
;)

Main benefits:

(i) TB! can cope with huge databases of emails (80,000+ in my case!)
without crashing or misbehaving; there was never the slightest chance
that Outlook could do so, and I was continually having to hive off
messages into archives and juggle things around (and there's no need
for "PST [Outlook mail file] repair utilities" and similar);

(ii) TB! doesn't suffer from intrinsic security problems (not merely a
spectator's opinion; my company suffered from several Outlook viruses
which caused the most extraordinary chaos);

(iii) TB! loads quickly and can be left to run in the background
without bloating up the machine;

(iv) TB!'s filtering is excellent; Outlook's filters are a sad
failure, as they try to use a "naturalish" language which isn't really
tractable;

(v) TB!'s templates are also excellent; Outlook users see something
like "At 6.48pm on 7 January 2002 Fred said:" at the top of the
message and think this is wonderful ;)

(vi) TB! has no integrated calendar functionality. This might sound
rather odd, but on one project I was plagued with meeting requests and
other auto-generated bombardments from Outlook. Things actually ran
more smoothly when I persuaded everyone to switch off all this
functionality because I used TB!, which didn't understand it ;)

(vii) The backup and restore is an absolute lifesaver, and would be
even better if it could be automated from outside the program (a
common request) ...

Main demerits:

(i) Rather stiff UI - customisable toolbars and suchlike are more
important than I thought;

(ii) The learning curve is phenomenal; after several months using the
package I'm still learning every day. Unfortunately, most people don't
have the time or motivation for this, and it's a bit annoying when
you've overlooked something because the online help isn't very good
(if a secret benefactor were willing to pay 6 months' salary I'd
gladly vanish into a corner and rewrite the whole help system from
scratch for nothing ;)

Alastair



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: Accented characters

[Alastair Scott]

On 8 January 2002 at 4:41 pm Marck wrote:

> Greetings Bat Fans,

> A question has been posed to me off-list be a journalist and I
> wondered if anyone here knows anything about this issue - I don't. it
> pertains to use of the UK keyboard.

> ,- [ Query ]
> | One convention which appears not to work is that of generating
> | accented characters using prefix key combinations. This isn't one
> | that's widely known so in case you're not familiar with it (excuse me
> | if I'm mentioning something you already know) it's using such as Ctrl
> | + ' + e to give é, Ctrl + Shift + ^ + a to give â, Ctrl + Shift + ~ +
> | N to give ñ, Ctrl + Shift + : + u to give ü, and so on. I've done all
> | these examples here using cut and paste from Word but it would be good
> | to have them readily available thus from the keyboard.
> `-

As pointed out elsewhere, this is an Office trick (borrowed from MacOS
:)

However, there is a very nice free application which allows such
multiple key combinations to be used in _any_ Windows application and,
for good measure, is completely customisable (something like this
would be nice for TB!'s own key combinations ;)

http://allchars.zwolnet.com/

Alastair



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Sudden inspiration - easy spam filter

[Alastair Scott]

Why not make the Filtering Strings | Strings settings in a filter
Filtering Strings | String or Filename? 

The rationale for this is producing an easily updated "anti-spam
filter"; I'm getting a lot of spam from Taiwan for some reason so the
filter would have, among others:

Rule.Move messages to folder = Trash

Rule.Strings = .tw (Location = Anywhere, Presence = Yes)

Actions.Mark the message as read = 

Now if, say, spam started turning up from China I would add another entry:

Rule.Strings = .cn (Location = Anywhere, Presence = Yes)

and if people started to sell me Viagra another entry would be:

Rule.Strings = Viagra (Location = Anywhere, Presence = Yes)

These multiple entries get unwieldy, especially with the cluttered
screen area in which they are held, and it would be much easier to
handle this situation if I could specify:

Rule.Filename =  (Location = Anywhere, Presence = Yes)

and then have  as a plain text file containing the lines:

.tw
.cn
Viagra
... and so on.

Thus another "junk string" would merely require altering a text file
_outside_ TB! (and could probably be automated in some way), rather
than adding rule after rule after rule _within_ TB! (Regular
expressions are not enough - the possible "junk strings" are too
disparate).

Thoughts?

Alastair



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: Should I dump Outlook 2000?

[Alastair Scott]

On 7 January 2002 at 11:55 pm Juan wrote:

> Hi Alastair,

> Monday, January 07, 2002, 4:38:32 PM, you wrote:

AS>> Main benefits:
AS>> [...]

> You forgot to mention that TB! doesn't come from Micro$oft ;)

Not an issue for me!

I really violently _hate_ this dogma, if X writes a good package and
if X writes a bad package it's bad; who X is doesn't come into it.
(If, in some crazy parallel universe, RITLabs wrote Outlook and
Microsoft wrote TB!, praise would be unto Microsoft; actually, Outlook
is "good but not good enough" ;)

I omitted another reason:

(viii) The ability to change the _account_ of a reply with one menu
option [Options | Active account | ...]. This is phenomenally useful
for someone like me who had to change ISPs 4 times in the past 2 years
and keeps getting messages to the "wrong" account; the reply can be
sent from the "correct" account without cutting and pasting and
confusing oneself.

Alastair



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: Should I dump Outlook 2000?

[Alastair Scott]

On 8 January 2002 at 3:13 am Raj wrote:

> I  guess  the  point  Alastair  was  making  is  that the learning curve is made
> phenomenal  mainly  due  to  lack of information or information not presented in
> proper manner.

Quite :)

> I  personally  used TB for over 8 months as described you in the first part. Its
> only  when  I  stated  digging  did I realize I have to dig deep and at multiple
> place to strike. This is what make getting used to TB difficult.

> For  most  people  e-mail is a tool to get their work done and one cannot expect
> them  to  search all over the net or subscribe to TBUDL to get majority of info.
> It should be available in the help file with examples.

> I  guess  its  high  time people at RITlabs realized that its just not important
> to have a good product but also package it well.

Yes, that could scarcely have been put better.

I rather dislike Apple for Steve Jobs' grandstanding, its
condescension (the implication that only it can do good design and
everyone else is an uncultured fool only interested in money) and the
semi-devotional atmosphere generated by its followers ... but one
thing it has _never_ done is cut corners on documentation, either
electronic or paper. Its manuals are a pleasure to read, and also an
education in how to write documentation yourself.

(A great danger when working for the IT industry is falling into the
trap "oh, we're clever and can work it out from first principles".
After 12 years in that industry I've learned better; I'd say about 1/3
of my time is spent writing up what I've done, either for those
working for me or for the users).

Alastair



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: Sudden inspiration - easy spam filter

[Alastair Scott]

On 9 January 2002 at 3:25 am Thomas wrote:

> I understand you have never received a message I sent from home? My
> cable provider is ethome.net.tw and this will be shown in the headers.

> Please be carefull with declaring whole countries/TLD's as spammers.

At work there is no doubt :)

[This is the home account, on which the real TB! work is done, and it
doesn't have that filter; I've received every one].

Alastair



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: Bat and Eudora

[Alastair Scott]

At 09:38 am 09/01/02 +, Mike wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I would like to ask a question that could get my head chopped off
> If one wanted to run TB! and Eudora simultaneously, how would
>one be able to reimport messages from TB! into Eudora?
>
>Thanks,
>Mike - putting on the tin hat.

You can take it back off :)

Unfortunately Eudora is very limited in its input formats (Outlook, Outlook 
Express, Netscape) and none of these are supported by The Bat!

There have been occasional posts about bridging the gap by using Outlook 
Express (export text files from TB!, then import text files to OE, then 
import OE -> Eudora) but these methods are hideously clumsy.

The best solution if you use more than one email package is to use a 
third-party utility called Mailbag Assistant, which handles conversion plus 
a whole lot else. You pay a bit but, for USD30, you get a lot for what you pay.

http://www.fookes.com/mailbag/index.html

Alastair




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ZIP and email peculiarity

[Alastair Scott]

When using WinZip's Zip and email from the Explorer context menu
(WinZip | Zip and Email ), I've noted something odd.

When I started off using TB! I was with ISP A and made it the default;
I then moved to ISP B and made B the default ("this account is the
default for mailto: URLs" in Account | Properties in both cases).

Yet Zip and email is still using A to send the email from.

The first thing to do is to establish whether it's a WinZip problem or
a TB! problem; I suspect this means monitoring API calls or similar,
which I don't have the knowledge to do. Anyone?

Alastair

NB I'm using WinZip 8.1 (build 4331).



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: winxp out of mem

[Alastair Scott]

On 11 January 2002 at 2:27 pm Joe wrote:

> Friday, January 11, 2002, 1:13:06 AM, you wrote:

> [...]
>> Try deleting old messages if possible, or archive them.

> May I ask you how you usually go about archiving your old messages?

> I assume you mean to completely remove them from TB! and place them somewhere
> else, e.g., onto removable storage media?

> Does this really improve the performance of TB!?

> How?

> And if so, at what point does this improvement occur?

As far as I can see (with anything from 0 to the current 30,000 messages
in TB!) there is no performance hit, in basic use, as far as I can see,
and no crashing irrespective of the size of the message base. This is a
remarkable achievement, and a rare one for Windows packages (which tend
to progressively collapse as more and more is stuffed into them) :)

Of course, things like searches, which may have to traverse the entire
folder tree, slow down as the message base gets bigger, but nothing can
be done about that.

I archive to CD-RW each night and to CD-R about every 50,000 messages or
so, but this is solely to keep the message base a manageable size for
myself.

What I do when I want to clear out TB! is a complete backup (Tools |
Backup) to CD-R then delete the contents of each folder by hand*.

Alastair

* a useful facility would allow you to delete all messages _but_ keep
the folder tree intact.


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Re: winxp out of mem

[Alastair Scott]

On 11 January 2002 at 3:05 pm Peter wrote:

> Hello Alastair,

> On 11 Jan 2002 at 15:39:58 you wrote (at least in part):

AS>> ontents of each folder by hand*.
> [...]
AS>> * a useful facility would allow you to delete all messages _but_ keep
AS>> the folder tree intact.

> I don't know if you're already doing, but you can easily delete the
> content of one folder by using + with the folder focused.
> Pretty much easier than selecting all messages and deleting manually,
> but of course not as nice as 'delete messages in tree' :-)

Ah, I see hypnopaedia à la _Brave New World_ (a speaker in the headboard
of the bed whispering 5,000 times per night "Ctrl and Del together
deletes the contents of the focused folder" and similar keyboard
shortcuts I've learned about through this list) is required :)

Alastair


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Re: Display Font

[Alastair Scott]

On 11 January 2002 at 4:06 pm Alan wrote:

> Friday, January 11, 2002, 7:12:25 AM, GJim wrote:

>> After re-installing TB! (along with EVERYTHING else), I no longer have
>> access to the display font, within TB!, that I used to use (Andale
>> Mono).

> Does the font exist in your c:\windows\fonts folder?  I couldn't tell
> you, off hand, if it's a default Windows font, but this would be the
> first place i'd look.

Ah, that reminds me :)

For some reason it isn't supplied on the Windows CD (even XP) or with an
Internet Explorer download. You have to download and install it
separately from:

http://www.eu.microsoft.com/typography/downloads/andale32.exe

Alastair


This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For 
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Re: winxp out of mem

[Alastair Scott]

On 11 January 2002 at 9:23 pm Joe wrote:

>> What I do when I want to clear out TB! is a complete backup (Tools |
>> Backup) to CD-R then delete the contents of each folder by hand*.

> If I were to do that, could I (if I ever needed to) "restore" multiple
> generations of a particular archive?  Say, restore Year 1 plus Year 2,
> to get an active file that included both Year 1 *and* Year 2?

Unfortunately not; TB!'s archive is absolute (restoring it replaces
the entire message database), not incremental (archives can be added
on top of each other) ...

>> This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For 
>more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around 
>the globe, visit
>> http://www.messagelabs.com

> One more question: Is the above notice automatically affixed by your
> virus-scanning software, or is it a cookie?

Automatically affixed - my company subscribes to it. (It is a rather
grand attempt to stop viruses getting onto company networks;
MessageLabs interposes a server between the Internet and the company
network which catches virus-infected emails and holds them).

Alastair



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: 1.53t

[Alastair Scott]

On 13 January 2002 at 09:12 Jernej wrote:

> Hello Ottar,

> 13. januar 2002, 8:40:41, you wrote:

OG>>   ZipMagic www.mijenix.com handles rar-files and allow you to use
OG>>   zip-files as folders so  you can run programs from them and open
OG>>   files wothout unziping to a seperate folder first. Nice.

> So does 7-zip  (and it's own archive format is much
> tighter than RAR or ACE)

Thanks!

As well as installing 7-zip I've deleted WinZip and WinRAR ("two fine
examples of user interface design", I write sarcastically ;)

Nice things come in threes :)

Alastair


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Re: [OT sort of] PocoMail- was Re[4]: HTML based emails

[Alastair Scott]

On 14 January 2002 at 03:20 Rick wrote:

>I'm just curious if anyone could give
>me some of the benefits/drawbacks of using PocoMail vs The Bat! I'm
>a registered user of The Bat! that came from Pegasus so I'm just
>curious what some users of it think of it compared to The Bat!. If
>this is too off topic I apologize and feel free to mail me off
>list. Mail clients interest me and I'll probably download pocomail
>just for the fun of it, but figured I'd get some opinions first if
>anyone had any.

Well, I had a look at Poco and it turned me right off straight away
(as Pegasus and Eudora do). I'm a user interface designer - and
sensitive to such things - and I'd rather have an "old-fashioned"
interface like TB's rather than one which doesn't look like a Windows
application.

That said, some of the Poco features are very powerful; I was amused
to see that the spam filtering (on word lists) was anticipated by
myself, and the scripting language looks nice :)

Alastair


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Re: Extended ASCII Characters

[Alastair Scott]

On 14 January 2002 at 18:41 Dierk wrote:

> BTW, the EURO sign, can you get at it by pressing the right +?
> Or is this only feasible with a German keyboard layout? And how then
> do other EURO countries do it? Or Americans? Or ...?

United Kingdom keyboards are Europhiles and AltGr-4 does it (your
'right Alt' is our 'AltGr') :€

(Switching to the US layout, AltGr-4 doesn't do anything; Alt-0128
produces the euro symbol).

Alastair


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Re: [OT sort of] PocoMail- was Re[4]: HTML based emails

[Alastair Scott]

On 14 January 2002 at 23:09 Melissa wrote:

> Personally, I think Slaven is great. I know he's dedicated to making
> Pocomail better, and no doubt it will improve. His tireless
> programming efforts and dedication to customer support (and openness
> to and implementation of suggestions) are much appreciated by Pocomail
> users and beta testers. However - it is, in my opinion, still *far*
> from being ready for prime time.

That Poco is maintained by one person is a big problem. What happens
if something happens to him? (And things do happen - I've been stung
several times by packages which suddenly stopped being developed for
one reason or another - www.akmail.com is an example very close to
home :)

That, for me, would be reason enough not to bother with it ...

Alastair


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Re: [OT sort of] PocoMail- was Re[4]: HTML based emails

[Alastair Scott]

On 15 January 2002 at 8:31 am Dierk wrote:

> Well, both are German luxury cars ... which means most Germans like
> them, virtually every non-German, and me not.

> I'd rather have a good British (they are mostly half American today),
> Italian or French car. Even the Spanish version of German cars (Seat)
> I'd much prefer to the German counterparts (VW).

> Sorry for being off-topic, needed a bit of comic relief here. :-)

As long as you don't have a British railway :P

Alastair


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Re: Oddity when replying.

[Alastair Scott]

On 16 January 2002 at 20:49 Geordon wrote:

> Hello list,

>   I'm trying to replay to a long e-mail and cut parts out, but when I
>   hilight and hit DEL or BACKSPACE, it only deletes a couple of
>   characters, rather than the whole selection.  I can CTRL-X it gone,
>   though.

>   Any ideas on what I can check to figure out why this is happening?

>   Thanks

I wouldn't mind any thoughts on this - I noted it this afternoon when
I was trying to delete a quoted section (each line prefaced with >).
Del only deleted the first quote (a couple of characters) no matter
the size of the paragraph selected, but Ctrl-X or pressing Backspace
repeatedly (yuck) did ...

(Strangely, I've used TB! for about a year and never noticed this
before; the behaviour is also present in 1.54 betas :)

Alastair
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Re: Oddity when replying.

[Alastair Scott]

On 16 January 2002 at 20:59 Alastair wrote:

> I wouldn't mind any thoughts on this - I noted it this afternoon when
> I was trying to delete a quoted section (each line prefaced with >).
> Del only deleted the first quote (a couple of characters) no matter
> the size of the paragraph selected, but Ctrl-X or pressing Backspace
> repeatedly (yuck) did ...

> (Strangely, I've used TB! for about a year and never noticed this
> before; the behaviour is also present in 1.54 betas :)

Discovered. I'd been doing some testing and forgotten to put back the
editor settings ...

If you go to Options | Editor Preferences and make sure the
'Persistent Blocks' option is unchecked and the 'Overwrite Blocks'
option is checked Del will do what you expected it to do.

Alastair

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Re: Oddity when replying.

[Alastair Scott]

On 16 January 2002 at 21:23 Geordon wrote:

> Where can I find out what all of those options are supposed to do?

Good question :) The FAQ has bits and pieces in
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/Messages.html but, as far as I
know, there is no systematic description. I got the editor to behave
itself by trial and error, as have many other people.

The editor settings are a serious weakness of TB!, being in
"programmer-speak", and I believe the editor is being rewritten
although not for the current beta series (1.54).

Alastair


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Re: Problem with sending attachments

[Alastair Scott]

On 17 January 2002 at 19:39 Mary wrote:


> Mary Cassidy wrote:


>> Anyway it didn't work; usual error message.

> I  just tried an entirely different tack; I saved the document in Word
> 6.0/95 and guess what? it worked.

> But why?

> I've   only   recently  started  using  Win2000  with  Office2000  (my
> supplier's  lent me a copy to evaluate it because I was doubtful about
> upgrading from Office98).

> But  surely  lots of other people must be using TB with Office2000 and
> managing to send attachments?

> Any  brilliant  ideas  (other than XP, which I don't really fancy just
> yet)?

Aha, an idea :)

Go to the 'Account' menu, select the 'Properties ...' item, then
select the 'Files & Directories' item in the left-hand pane then look
at the drop-down box entitled 'By default encode attachments using'.
Change the setting there to the opposite of what it's currently set to
(there are two settings, 'MIME Base 64' and 'UU Encoding').

Then try sending the file you were originally trying to send (in Word
2000 format). Does it work this time?

Alastair


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Re: Problem with sending attachments

[Alastair Scott]

On 17 January 2002 at 23:15 Mary wrote:

> I  was  convinced  that must be it, but no, it doesn't work either.

> TB  was  set  to  Base  64; Eudora was set to MIME, and Netscape to
> the non-MIME  option,  something  like  "send  as  is" (I have the
> Italian version, so I don't know the exact English name).

> I changed TB to UUE, but it made no difference.

> Then I tried zipping the file, and again it worked, so the file format
> must have something to do with it.

> Any more ideas?

Last shot :)

Is it only one particular file in Word 2000 format that's causing the
stoppage, or can you repeat the problem with different files?

Alastair


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Re: Problem with sending attachments

[Alastair Scott]

On 18 January 2002 at 12:16 pm Mary wrote:

> I don't suppose all that many people send files from a different
> partition, but even so, Netscape and Eudora allow me to do it with no
> trouble.

> I've tried setting the Account Properties to save attachments in a
> separate new file in the Win2000 partition (couldn't find the default
> attachment file), but it doesn't work (the attachment is definitely in
> that file, I checked). The problem seems to be that the files
> originate from the other partition, so I'm going to have to save them
> on both partitions if I don't want to lose them when I uninstal.

> Bug?

Almost certainly :)

It triggers a similar "cross-partition" memory; many beta versions ago I
had problems saving a TB! backup to a NT 4 partition from a Windows 95
machine (during production of the backup TB! writes temporary files, the
directory for those being on the Windows 95 machine). The problem went
away before I raised a bug report ...

> Anyway, it's a temporary problem; before I register TB I'll have
> decided whether or not to buy Win2000.

> Thanks to all who offered help and advice; although I eventually found
> the solution myself, I would never have thought of the answer if I
> hadn't been subscribed to this group.

I had been writing a response (which I threw away) along the lines of
"Given that ZIP files work another workaround is to use WinZip's
self-extractor (C:\Program Files\WinZip\WZSEPE32.EXE on my machine) to
create a self-extracting ZIP file which people _without_ WinZip can
receive, copy to their hard drives, then click on to extract the
original file." That would be worth keeping in mind.

Alastair

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Re: Problem with sending attachments

[Alastair Scott]

On 18 January 2002 at 2:22 pm Andrew wrote:

> Hello Alastair & Mary,

AS>> ... many beta versions ago I had problems saving a TB! backup to a
AS>> NT 4 partition from a Windows 95 machine

> Alastair -- Do you remember, was the NT4 partition formatted as FAT or
> NTFS? Was this NTFS partition a shared directory on a network server
> or on your own PC?

It was (and is) an NTFS share on a network server.

> Mary -- Are you logging on to Windows 2000 with Administrator rights?

AS>> ...create a self-extracting ZIP file which people _without_ WinZip
AS>> can receive, copy to their hard drives, then click on to extract
AS>> the original file.

> Alastair -- Many mail systems now refuse executable file attachments
> and many users are very wary of opening executable attachments that
> they have not already been advised to expect.

Whoops - forgot about that (MS Outlook will silently delete them if the
various "security" options are installed) :/

Alastair



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Re: Problem with sending attachments

[Alastair Scott]

On 18 January 2002 at 2:47 pm Andrew wrote:

> Hello Alastair,

> Last question (but no promises): ;-)

AS>> It was (and is) an NTFS share on a network server.

> What rights do you have on this share? Can you create a file there?
> (In Windows Explorer, click on File, New..., then select anything on
> the list)

Yes. Even when TB! wasn't wanting to create the file, I could :)

Alastair


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Re: Horizontal versus Vertical

[Alastair Scott]

On 18 January 2002 at 10:15 Gerard wrote:

> Hi Bat Users,

>   Me and some other users are working on the translation of TB to
>   Dutch. While doing so I stumbled over the following.

>   In the main screen please go to View -> Split mode --> Select
>   Horizontal and then Vertical split.

>   Please let me know it performed the split as you would expected it.

I think this is why many applications use a little picture of the
panes rather than trying to describe what's happening in words ;)

Alastair


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Re: scanning incoming/outgoing emails

[Alastair Scott]

On 20 January 2002 at 16:29 Joseph wrote:

>  Jan Rifkinson wrote on Saturday, January 19, 2002:

>>   I use The Bat! which is not listed here. This email client has the
>>   ability to use an anti-virus plug-in from any program developer
>>   that provides one.

> How does this work?  Where is the documentation to be found?  I route
> my incoming email through my AV program (NOD32), but I've made no
> adjustments in TB!

There's a facility in the current 1.54 beta versions (not the 1.53
release version) which allows messages to be automatically
virus-scanned by TB! _provided a TB!-specific plugin exists_.

At the moment, as far as I know, only Kaspersky Anti-Virus has a
plugin written for it, and the virus-checking facilities are greyed
out in any case ...

(I suppose thie point of this plugin architecture is to allow any
anti-virus vendor to hook their product into TB! easily and in a
predictable way).

>>   If this were available, it would be of great help to
>>   many of us even though The Bat! has it's own built in
>>   virus checker.

> What built-in virus checker does TB! have?

None; see above.

Alastair


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Re: HTML- special folder

[Alastair Scott]

On 21 January 2002 at 11:04 am Jason wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm a novice user in TB
> can we set up a filter to sent all the html email straight to a
> special folder
> what is the condition to be applied in the filter
> thanks ya!

One way to do it would be to give the filter:

Strings =  [as every HTML page has  somewhere near the
start]

Location = Text [test for 's presence anywhere in the body of the
message]

Presence = Yes [self-explanatory]

Alastair



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Re: management of folders

[Alastair Scott]

On 21 January 2002 at 15:34 David wrote:

> Hello TBUDL,

> I  find  The  Bat!  very  easy  to  use  for filtering mail. It is
> extremely  powerful,  but  the  ability to so easily move messages
> around raises a question, for me:

>What is good strategy for handling folders of incoming and sent
>messages?  Is  it  a good idea to put sent messages in the same
>folder with incoming mail? What about setting up inbox and sent
>sub-folders  for  each  mail folder (seems very complicated and
>does  not really solve the problem of seeing sent messages with
>corresponding reply). Any suggestions?

This (filtering ingoing _and outgoing_ messages on the fly to folders)
is actually easier than any other mail package I've come across
because of a very nice feature.

Go to the Inbox, select a message in the message list and press
Ctrl-Shift-F or right mouse button | Specials | Create filter ...; the
dialog box that pops up on doing this is self-explanatory, creating
the filter for you (which would otherwise involve a visit to Account |
Sorting Office/Filters).

You can also set up the mirror image of such filters for outgoing
messages (go to Sent Mail once the reply has been sent and do the same
thing) to send them where you want; by making both Move to folder:
folders the same you _can_ have sent messages and replies next to each
other.

Alastair


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Re: HTML- special folder

[Alastair Scott]

On 21 January 2002 at 12:30 Marck wrote:

> Yes - for text/html, although that wouldn't see the
> multipart/alternative styled messages in which the HTML version of the
> message is a simple attachment. Such messages would be missed by both
> of the suggestions so far.

> I think you would have to have alternatives set up for each of these
> filter aspects for it to work reliably.

After much experiment the one that always works (given that the spam
email I get is almost exclusively HTML and exclusively multipart with
an attachment) is

"content-type: text/html" in Kludges (no quotes when typing it into
the box).

So a combination of that and "" (again no quotes) in Text would
probably cover everything reasonable.

Alastair


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Re: font size in message list

[Alastair Scott]

On 22 January 2002 at 20:20 Roman wrote:

> Hi Batters,
> I just reinstalled Win2k, Restored TB from the Backup I had made and started
> it. Now the font size in the message list is 8. I can set the font size for
> the folder pane and for the message header pane, but not for the message
> list. At least it seems that way. What am I overlooking?

This is gloriously obscure :)

Go to Options | Message List Colours, make sure  is
selected in the left-hand pane of the popup window then press the Font
... button and set the font.

(A feature request of mine is that the font support is rationalised;
it's currently scattered all over TB's user interface, even in the
latest beta versions).

Alastair


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Re: making an existing folder a subfolder

[Alastair Scott]

On 24 January 2002 at 2:52 pm Rick wrote:

> Is there a way to drag a folder into another folder so that it becomes
> a subfolder? I can use alt-and hold down on a folder to move it but I
> can't seem to get it to go into another folder to become a subfolder.

Ctrl-Alt-drag does it. In general:

i. Alt-drag onto a folder puts the dragged folder at the same level;

ii. Ctrl-Alt-drag onto a folder puts the dragged folder one level below.

A slight oddity with Alt-drag is that, if you do it twice, the folder is
displayed "either side of" the folder at the same level. So, if you have
A in place and B being dragged, the first drag of B onto A gives

- B
- A

and the second of B onto A gives

- A
- B

Alastair


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Re: Synchronizing two TB! mailboxes on different computers

[Alastair Scott]

On 25 January 2002 at 11:02 am Marcus wrote:

> Hello,

> I'm currently using The Bat! 1.53d at home and would like to use it at work 
> on my laptop as well. Mostly I bring my laptop with me when I'm leaving the 
> office, but not always. When I do, I will use the laptop to read my mails, 
> but when I don't I will of course use my desktop at home.

> Now comes the tricky part. When I bring my laptop home I would like to 
> synchronize the mailboxes from the different computers so that they look 
> exactly the same. A mail sent from my laptop should show up in my sent 
> folder on both computers and of course a mail sent from my stationary 
> should show up in the sent folder of my laptop as well.

> If you have used Outlook on a laptop you know what I mean, when you come 
> back to the office and plug the network cable in the local mailbox is 
> synchronized with the server's mailboxes.

> Is it possible to use The Bat! this way? I suppose I can run The Bat! in 
> server mode at my stationary and as a client on my laptop, but will I still 
> be able to send mail from the laptop when I'm not connected to my 
> stationary? And will the mailboxes automatically synchronize when the two 
> Bats get in contact with each other?

> (I'm sorry for all my words, english isn't my native language and it's 
> pretty annoying trying to explain what I mean in a language I don't speak 
> or write fluent)

You explained it excellently :)

Unfortunately, not many people (myself included) seem to use the
client-server functionality; I would always use Workstation with TCP/IP
(Options | Network & Administration), so can't help directly.

That said, I use two [manual] methods to synchronise between two machines:

1. Exporting and importing Unix mbox files (Tools | Export Messages);

2.  Synchronisation (Tools | Synchronisation).

The first, for less than about 20 or 30 messages a day, works quite
well.

Alastair



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Re: Fwd: I've been out of touch

[Alastair Scott]

On 26 January 2002 at 17:40 Costas wrote:

> I've  been  out  of touch with my email in the last two days, and will
> not be able to read any email received in that period. What's worse, I
> discovered that I was removed from the TUBDL, perhaps because of email
> bounces.

> Can someone please inform me:

> 1.  What is the latest Beta version of TB! and where can I download it
> from?

Beta 31 at

ftp://ftp.ritlabs.com/pub/the_bat/beta/tb154b31.rar

> 2.  I  think  there were no email messages posted to the Beta testers'
> list lately. Is the list now active?

It's just as active as it's ever been (except for the usual weekend
slowdown)

> 3. What is the subscription address for the Beta testers mailing list?

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Alastair


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Re: Cursors and font

[Alastair Scott]

On 27 January 2002 at 15:24 Headless wrote:

> New to The Bat!, can I get rid of the custom cursors that are
> displayed when hovering over links?

Wait until version 1.54 :)

(They have gone in beta versions of 1.54).

> I'd also like to change the editor font, but only a few of the
> installed fonts show up in The Bat!

That's because the editor only supports plain text email and restricts
itself to fixed-width fonts: these are a small subset of all fonts
installed on your PC (typically Andale Mono, Courier New, Lucida Sans
Typewriter, ...).

I believe that the editor is being completely rewritten to allow not
only variable-width fonts but HTML email (changes of font, size,
colour etc. within the text you write) as well; however, this change
is not in 1.54 unless it suddenly parachutes in.

Alastair
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Re: On Topic or Off Topic?

[Alastair Scott]

On 27 January 2002 at 14:41 DJ wrote:

> Hello Marck,

> Sunday, January 27, 2002, 2:20:14 AM, you wrote:

> Thanks for your reply, it's been parked and flagged.

> Will the bat work with HotMail? HotMail uses an older form of e-mail
> that 99% of others have discarded. I think it's HTML based, or
> something like that. I'm not sure what setting to change to get it
> running. I tried it with no results earlier today.

Unfortunately not - Hotmail doesn't use standard protocols for reading
and writing email (POP3/IMAP4/SMTP) and, I believe, is _completely_
proprietary. At various times there've been attempts (elsewhere) to
set up facilities to access it with POP3 gateways and similar, but
these've been rendered inoperable by Microsoft :/

Alastair

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Re: Global Sorting

[Alastair Scott]

On 28 January 2002 at 2:40 pm Dave wrote:

> Is there a way to set up filter which works across multiple accounts?

> Alternatively, is there a way to set up a folder which is common to
> more than one account?

> If, as I suspect, the answer to both questions is "no", can anyone
> suggest a graceful way to handle the following situation?

> I have several POP3 accounts.  The mail coming through all of these
> accounts needs to be sorted into a common set of folders.  Is there
> not some alternative to maintaining multiple sets of identical
> filters, one for each account?

Wait until version 1.54; it has "common folders" which can be set up
independently of other accounts and can have messages filtered into them
from any or all accounts.

(It doesn't have "common filters" which, come to think of it, might be a
worthwhile addition!)

Alastair

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Re: Missing mailticker

[Alastair Scott]

On 28 January 2002 at 10:18 am Gerard wrote:

> Not being faint of heart I hacked the register and restored the
> ticker.

> Although I agree that it is nice to be able to have the ticker
> partly of screen , I realy feel there should be a button somewere to
> restore the ticker to (0,0) were you can see it regardless of
> resolution

This sort of thing would do better as a command line switch
(/FIXTICKER); a button only pressed whenever something goes wrong is not
a good advertisement ;)

There may be some subtle Windows problem as TB! is not the first
application where I've noted windows appearing off screen unexpectedly
...

Alastair



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Re: Template for printing emails?

[Alastair Scott]

On 29 January 2002 at 10:09 am John wrote:

> Is there anywhere in TB! where I can create a template to use when I
> print out emails?

Select Print Setup from the Message menu then click the Template
(middle) tab ... and there it is.

Alastair



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Re: Template for printing emails?

[Alastair Scott]

On 29 January 2002 at 10:49 am John wrote:

> On 29 Jan 2002 at 10:18 Alastair wrote:
>> On 29 January 2002 at 10:09 am John wrote:

>>> Is there anywhere in TB! where I can create a template to use when I
>>> print out emails?

>> Select Print Setup from the Message menu then click the Template
>> (middle) tab ... and there it is.

> Thanks! I thought there must be a template somewhere. And there was me
> trying to find it under "templates" . . .

> Can I have folder specific print templates?

Well ... there's a 'Use folder-specific print settings' checkbox when
you bring up Folder Properties (Alt-Enter with the folder highlit), but
I've never used it and it's not clear how it works. Anyone?

Alastair



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Re: Messages deleted in Inbox folder?

[Alastair Scott]

On 30 January 2002 at 21:52 ETM wrote:

> I am a relatively new registered user of TB.  I did use ExpressAssist to
> protect my OE mail.  I have also performed one backup of all of TB,
> but have no proof that the backup was successful.  Is there a way to
> confirm that everything is actually there?  Does the backup program
> permit restoring in the event of a mail program failure?  How is
> that done?

It can't be verified, save by importing it into another copy of TB!
(I've never had any problem but, if the file format were made open,
someone could easily write a separate program to check that a backup
file followed the format  :)

If there's a catastrophic failure, the way you get everything back is:

1. Reinstall TB! from the installation package

2. Restore the backup file via Tools | Restore

and everything (including the program settings) is restored from the
time you made the backup.

[There's a minor annoyance in that, the first time you run TB!, it
forces you to go through an 'account wizard'. This can't be quit from
so you have to put in nonsensical account information then, when you
finally get to the main screen, restore the backup file and delete the
nonsense account. I've put in a feature request that the 'account
wizard' _can_ be quit].

> A wish would be that the Folder Menu specifically
> spell out "Empty Trash" -- I think the potential to be in the wrong
> folder when emptying "trash" is great.  Most other mail programs are
> pretty specific on which folder is being emptied and require
> selectively or consecutively marking mail for deletion from active
> folders and only allow "emptying" the trash folder.

Not quite sure what you're driving at here as 'empty folder' on any
other folder puts the contents of the folder into the Trash, then
'empty folder' inside Trash _really_ deletes those messages.

Alastair

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Re: The Bat vs. 1.54?

[Alastair Scott]

On 03 February 2002 at 07:17 Nick wrote:

> All I can say is that the wait will have been worth while... and
> shouldn't be too much longer. I have to agree with Dierk on this one
> point, and that is the importance of not releasing the next version
> until the major bugs have been resolved. The problem at times seems to
> be the addition of new features without resolving some of the old bugs,
> which results in further delays before the next release.

> Hopefully that cycle is near an end.

... because the authors were flattened by the beta testers ;)

There _was_ a problem with new features being added at too great a
rate but, following a big fuss over Christmas, there's now good solid
bug-fixing going on.

Certainly, since about beta 25, I've felt no need to go back to
version 1.53.

Alastair

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Re: complaint: thebat portability

[Alastair Scott]

On 03 February 2002 at 06:10 ::Andrew:: wrote:

> Hello tbudl,

>   Don't get me wrong I'm a great fan of TB! but if I had one wish it
>   would be to make TB! recognise it's won mail databases more easily.
>   I've had to re-install winxp several times recently which has
>   brought home just how much of a pain the current system is.

>   1) Point TB! at the mail folder in 'My docs' (because I keep my docs
>   on a seperate drive when I reinstall it's unaffected).
>   2) Create a stupid test account just so I can get into TB! then
>   delete it (this step may not be necessary but I've always doneit his
>   way).
>   3) Try and remember the names I'd given for each account I have was
>   it yahoo, yahoo.com, yahoo.co.uk that sort of thing.
>   4) Try and remember the order in which I like those accounts to
>   display - subconciously I'm used to them being in a given order and
>   reach for them there now.
>   5) Change the view so that the account tree is tall and reaches top
>   to bottom on the left - just my pref.
>   6) Go through all accounts checking user names for several accounts
>   I have user names like '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' that bat when it
>   recovers the configs for the folders etc always drops the
>   @domain.com bit which means I have to double check all accounts.
>   7) all done ... but there really should be something easier.

Somewhat baffled by all this ... you're missing Tools | Backup and
Tools | Restore which do all this for you (they back up all the
accounts' properties and so on into one file which can easily be hived
off to CD-R in case of disaster).

Unfortunately the "test account" problem is still present - you have
to create a dummy account before you get to the menus and can do the
restore. I've put a feature request in to fix this (which is trivially
easy!), though.

Alastair


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Re: complaint: thebat portability

[Alastair Scott]

On 03 February 2002 at 16:27 Roman wrote:

> On Sunday, February 03, 2002, 07:10:07, ::Andrew:: wrote:
>>   For those of you familiar with Zoot (www.zootsoftware.com) it's a
>>   dream by comparison just point it at your database files and ever
>>   configuration you made is instantly available again.

> Just curious: I went to the web site and didn't quite get the real pupose of
> that program. What does one use it for?

It appears to be one of those "mind mapping" things, except that the
nodes of the map can be made up of any (possibly Web-based)
information, not just words you type in yourself. I must say the Web
site would be greatly helped by screen shots; although the authors are
in information management they're not handling it very well
themselves!

(As my mind is incapable of being mapped by anything in the normal
four dimensions, I keep well away from such packages ;)

Alastair


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Re: Address book

[Alastair Scott]

On 04 February 2002 at 9:18 am Headless wrote:

> If I navigate to an address from the address book with the keyboard
> and hit enter, the address name edit box pops up, how do I select an
> address with the keyboard?

Hit Alt-Enter.

> Also, I can't get rid of 2 folders in the address book "Trusted root
> CA and Intermediate CA? (they are re-inserted after a restart)

(The following is a very terse description of a complex issue!)

This (regeneration) is done because, if these address books were
missing, S/MIME encryption and signing of messages would be barely worth
the effort.

In a nutshell, every message signed or encrypted with S/MIME requires at
least two other cryptographic signatures to be present on the
recipient's machine; these are hard-wired into the address books you
mention. If these address books weren't there the recipient would have
to import the other signatures themselves (by a process too complex to
describe here); at the moment, this only occasionally happens because
the hard-wired signatures cover about 95 per cent of cases.

> Most peculiar: I had to go back to Batty's main window to find out how
> to bring up the address book, the message compose window doesn't have
> a button or a menu entry to bring the address book up.

You can either press the small 'file card' button (at the extreme
right-hand end of the To: CC: or BCC: fields when the cursor is in it)
or, more easily, hit F8.

Alastair

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Re: way to delete all messages from subfolders?

[Alastair Scott]

On 06 February 2002 at 2:48 pm Rick wrote:

> One thing I would like to be able to do is to be able to select
> multiple folders and empty them or to be able to click on a folder and
> be able to delete all the messages in the folders below it. I know I
> can set up filters that will delete messages after a certain amount of
> time, but some times I don't want to do that. For example I have a
> main folder called "Lists" and then all my mail is filtered into sub
> folders below this one into the appropriate folder. Some weeks I just
> don't feel like reading any of the messages and would just like to
> clear out all the folders. Currently I have to do this by right
> clicking or using ctrl-del to delete all the messages in each folder.
> This can be a bit of a pain when you have a lot of mailing list
> subfolders. Is there anyway I can set up The Bat! to delete from more
> than one folder?

No. I can't remember whether this is a feature request of mine but, if
it isn't, it soon will be :)

Alastair



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Re: having one folder structure, pocomail, etc

[Alastair Scott]

On 07 February 2002 at 20:41 Rick wrote:

> I'm a registered user of The Bat!, but being that e-mail programs
> interest me, I figured I'd check out PocoMail also. I just installed
> it but one thing came to mind immediately that I'd like to ask the Bat
> group. Is there a way you can set up multiple accounts to only go to
> one inbox and related folders? For the most part I like the way The
> Bat is set up with each account being it's separate entity, but it
> would also be nice if I could just provide one folder structure for
> several of my pop accounts to pour into. For example I have about 3 or
> 4 pop accounts that are not that active. It would be great if I could
> have one inbox shared for these accounts but when I reply to one of
> the messages it knows which account it was sent to. This is how
> PocoMail and Pegasus act by default. I like The Bat's default set up
> but would like this option as well. I know I could filter all of the
> mail coming into those accounts into the inbox of another folder, but
> that seems more like a 'work-around' then really a solution.

'Common filters' is a feature currently missing from TB! which I put
on the request list.

Unfortunately, up until the 1.54 betas TB!'s architecture is very much
one account -> one set of folders -> one set of filters. Common
folders*, I think, are the first step away from this. One can filter to
a common folder, but the filter has to be reproduced within each
account which is to be filtered.

That said, the feature which allows a received message to be sent from
any account (by clicking on the received account name in the status
bar and selecting the new account from the popup) solves the other
half of the problem.

Alastair

* folders which "float" independently of any account.

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Re: having one folder structure, pocomail, etc

[Alastair Scott]

On 07 February 2002 at 21:13 Rick wrote:

> AS> Unfortunately, up until the 1.54 betas TB!'s architecture is very much
> one account ->> one set of folders -> one set of filters. Common
> AS> folders*, I think, are the first step away from this. One can filter to
> AS> a common folder, but the filter has to be reproduced within each
> AS> account which is to be filtered.

> By saying "up until the 1.54 betas" are you saying that in the
> 1.54 beta you can have multiple accounts empty into one 'inbox'
> (mailbox) ?

Yes, into any common folder (which can be called anything you like :)

Alastair


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Re: threading (or really, unthreading) a folder??

[Alastair Scott]

On 08 February 2002 at 11:47 am Dave wrote:

> Melissa Reese <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Yes - it's one of the things I really appreciate about TB!'s threading
>> options.  Each folder I want threaded in a particular way remembers
>> it's individual setting.

> But to accomplish this I would have to set up the heading columns for
> each of my several dozen folders individually, a somewhat tedious job.

> It seems to me a misfeature for TB! to have tied threading to the
> folder "Use account default column settings", such that any change in
> the threading selection for any one folder with that option ticked
> results in that threading selection being propogated to all folders so
> ticked.

> Or am I missing something?  Any enlightenment appreciated.

To the best of my incomplete knowledge you're not and, really, rather a
lot of TB!'s customisation features are a horrible muddle and need to be
rewritten from scratch.

(I've never understood the 'use account default column settings' - where
are they set? I would expect the defaults to be set in Account
Properties and folders which _don't_ take the defaults to have them
explicitly set via another tab in right-mouse-button | Properties. I'm
afraid that, if things like this don't hit you in the face, they're not
worth using).

If you think the column settings lack clarity, try 'use folder-specific
print settings' - this was explained to me as clearly as it could have
been yet is still utterly incomprehensible. I have neither time nor
inclination to learn such curious user interface notions ...

Alastair

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Re: Wish list (was: Microsoft attachment)

[Alastair Scott]

On 08 February 2002 at 4:00 pm Jonathan wrote:

> Use a high end editor (like Multi Edit, Slick Edit, etc) and see if you feel the
> same way!  The number one feature that distinguishes these are _configurability_
> (keymapping, toolbar, etc) although TB wouldn't the need extension-specific
> configuration.

> TB is actually pretty good, but it would be nice to be able to remap the
> keyboard - and not just for the editor - so that one doesn't have to remember
> multiple ways to do the same thing (e.g., reformat paragraph, F5 for search,
> etc.)

I think the problem is that TB!'s editor is deliberately _not_ like
other editors in many ways. That doesn't mean that it's wrong, but the
ubiquity of Microsoft applications (and copies of the way they do
things) exerts enormous hidden pressure to always do things the same
way.

Something else useful for new users (and old users :) would be a button
in Options | Editor Preferences to reset them to the defaults. It is
_very easy_ to go away from the defaults and get completely confused ...

(This is wish no.492 for those who want to look in the bugtracker).

Alastair

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Re: IMAP4 settings and Exchange Server

[Alastair Scott]

On 08 February 2002 at 20:31 Nancy wrote:

> When I configure the connection to the server, there is only two boxes
> (user and password).  My question is: Is there a way of sending the
> three different informations into the two boxes ?

Aha, this suddenly came to me because my work situation is similar :)

It's possible that the configuration should be set as:

user name = \

password = 

or

mail server = .walshautomation.com

user name = 

password = 

as I've seen both.

However, your system people are going to have to tell you this as
there seem to be many (almost random) ways of setting these things up.

Alastair


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Re: Attachments' reminder

[Alastair Scott]

On 09 February 2002 at 19:53 Sergey wrote:

> Hello TBUDL,

>   Sometimes  I  need  to  send  files. And sometimes they are very big
>   (about  1  meg).  And sometimes I forget to zip them before sending.

>   The  question  is:  is  it  possible in TB! to make a reminder (with
>   macros  or  regular  expressions)  so that when I'm trying to send a
>   message with attachment that exceeds, for example 200 kb, it pops up
>   and  asks  something like "wouldn't be better to zip your attachment
>   before sending?"

You could do it with an Outgoing Mail filter - in the Advanced tab of
that there's an option 'Message is larger than ... K Bytes'. Setting
... to 200 would trigger the rest of the filter in the situation
described.

I think the pop-up box is beyond TB!*, but you could certainly park
the message in the Outbox (see 'Park the message' in the Actions tab)
and play a suitably annoying sound (same tab at bottom).

Alastair

* that inspires a feature request; it would be very easy to add a
filter option to pop up a box with text defined in the filter.


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Re: Future Development

[Alastair Scott]

On 10 February 2002 at 08:24 Yuki wrote:

> Very advanced in what context?  What I am asking about actually, I
> guess, is the often referred to but somewhat phantom version 2.  And
> my comment above is really about release versions, not betas.  There
> hasn't been a new release version, highlighted on the TB home page,
> since June 19 of last year.  I'm not really interested in running a
> beta, although a beta being developed with DBCS support would
> probably change my mind very quickly.  Version 2, I heard, a long
> time ago, was supposed to be headed in the direction of DBCS support.
> I'd like to hear from someone who knows if this is still the case, or
> even if there is currently development being done on version 2 --
> serious development, of course.  I wouldn't be surprised if it's
> dying.  E-mail clients are not fantastic money makers in the first
> place.  I'd just like to know the current story.

Part of the problem is that TB!'s numbering is too modest - 1.54 is a
big upgrade to 1.53.

But, at the moment,

+ 1.54 definitely doesn't include double-byte encoding or Unicode
support;

+ 2.00 has had both of these hinted at, as well as a new filtering
system, new editor with HTML writing as well as reading, new user
interface, news reading plugin, full IMAP4 folder handling, support
for global peace and understanding (only joking about the last one ;)

What I don't know is what happens when 1.54 is released; does 2.00
beta 1 instantly appear with all these new features ready for
(doubtless protracted) testing?

> EC> If you want to have a TB!Japanese you better get in touch with
> EC> Ritlabs directly.

> I am not interested in a TB! Japanese.  Not in the slightest.  What I
> am interested in is a TB! English that can read Japanese e-mail, and
> that will let me input Japanese directly into its message editor.  I
> hate to say this . . . but Microsoft is starting to get way ahead of
> the game here, with their Global Input Method Editor (IME).  This
> allows almost seamless input of Japanese, Chinese, or Korean into
> English Office documents, or into English Web documents.  Of course,
> it works just fine with Outlook, as well.

As far as I can see the IME can work with third-party applications:

http://www.eu.microsoft.com/windows/ie/downloads/recommended/ime/default.asp

So, in principle, there's no difficulty integrating it into TB. The
problem is making the developers see this :(

I shall email them privately about this.

Alastair


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Re: Attachments' reminder

[Alastair Scott]

On 10 February 2002 at 11:23 Peter wrote:

> Hello Alastair,

> On Sunday, February 10, 2002 at 10:53:25 AM you wrote (at least in
> part):

> AS> You could do it with an Outgoing Mail filter

> Nope ... he can't.

> Outgoing Mail filters are triggered _after_ sending is done, so the
> only effect would be he has sent the 1MB message plus it is
> addtionally parked in oubox, a kind of reminder: 'You sent again a big
> mail without zipping attachment!' :-)

I thought of that possibility about 2 minutes after I wrote the
response :(

Oh well, another feature request (it seems that a filter triggered
_before_ the email was sent - or not - would be extremely useful in
certain circumstances, and this is one).

Alastair


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Re: I want to make wishes

[Alastair Scott]

On 11 February 2002 at 21:37 Marcus wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> Try using the menu option Help->Feedback->Suggestions, that way you
> will get a template to fill in.

Or go to https://bt.ritlabs.com/ get a username and password, log in
and then post to the 'The Bat! Wishes' forum (drop-down box in top
right picks the forum).

Alastair


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Re: New User - IMAP Folders?`

[Alastair Scott]

On 12 February 2002 at 9:58 am Steffen wrote:

> Hi List!

> I am looking for a new eMail client and so far TheBat looks nice
> enough. I have one problem though ... how do I have to configure
> TheBat to download my folders from the IMAP server including the mails
> inside the folders? Please don't tell me that TheBat is not supporting
> the whole IMAP protocol!

Unfortunately it doesn't - at the moment it treats IMAP4 like POP3 (only
'seeing' the root folder).

Alastair

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Using Windows 95 and The Bat! 1.54 Beta/37



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Re: New User - IMAP Folders?`

[Alastair Scott]

On 12 February 2002 at 10:16 am Linke wrote:

AS>> Unfortunately it doesn't - at the moment it treats IMAP4 like POP3
AS>> (only 'seeing' the root folder).

> Makes me wonder, why I'm able to download my server-rule-sorted mails
> from various folders ;)

> Honestly: I guess the Mail Controller/Dispatcher isn't that well
> documented, but just give it a try. For me it works.

Mine definitely won't do this - I've tried many times and all that is
ever visible is the Inbox although there are both personal folders and
common (company-wide) folders on the server :/

(It may well be "undocumented" = "doesn't work very well so isn't
emphasised" ... on the [tbbeta] mailing list there've been various
discussions in the past about IMAP and TLS/SSL* working, or not working,
depending on the server at the far end).

Alastair

* new in the 1.54 betas.



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Re: SMTP authentication problems with The Bat!

[Alastair Scott]

On 14 February 2002 at 18:08 Stuart wrote:

> And can you tell me how I would get that for The Bat! ?  The "Log" doesn't 
> contain that much info.  This was extracted from Eudora.log with the 
> appropriate debug selections made in the ini file.

Bizarrely, you can't. One of my feature requests is for TB! to write
the unexpurgated logfile somewhere. The sanitised version TB! presents
is fine until something really obscure goes wrong ...

Alastair


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Re: E-mail message

[Alastair Scott]

On 18 February 2002 at 19:32 John wrote:

> Hello fellow Bat! fans.

> Is this message from the Bat! mailing list server?

> [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of VS
> 28-70 front.jpg]

> This was received in place of an attachment.

It isn't - at least, I can't find it anywhere in my folders (and I
don't run anything which cuts off attachments considered to be dodgy).

Alastair


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Re: reading aol mail with the bat

[Alastair Scott]

On 17 February 2002 at 19:54 Shoebuddy wrote:

> Sunday, February 17, 2002 at 2:53 PM

>  Hello Everyone,
>   Is it possible to read aol mail with the bat?

Yes, but not directly - you need a third-party application which acts
as a proxy POP3 email server and puts itself in between TB! (which
understands POP3) and AOL (which uses its own protocols). Try:

http://www.enetbot.com/

These two are also interesting (and would allow TB! to receive
Hotmail, among other Web-based email services), although I haven't
tried them myself:

http://www.jmasoftware.com/english/products/web2pop/

http://www.cyber-info.com/

Alastair

-- 
Alastair Scott (London, United Kingdom)
Using Windows XP and The Bat! 1.54 Beta/39


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Re: Harvest Email Addresses from All Emails?

[Alastair Scott]

On 18 February 2002 at 10:09 am Dave wrote:

> Monday, February 18, 2002, 2:13:18 AM, Qwackmaster wrote:

> Qwackmaster> Is there a way that I can extract all the email addresses out of
> Qwackmaster> received messages in a particular folder?  I'm a member of a Music
> Qwackmaster> Email List and I would like to contact everyone who has posted to the
> Qwackmaster> list privately.  In order to do this, I'm wondering if there's a way
> Qwackmaster> to extract all the email addresses into a text file or into a separate
> Qwackmaster> folder in my address book?

> I'd call that SPAM ;-)

Indeed - but the only way I can think of to do it is:

i. Use Tools | Export Messages | Unix Mailbox (with all messages
selected in the folder) to export them as a single text file;

ii. Use external programs to hack around that text file.

For example, my text editor (TextPad) would allow me to mark every line
containing From: with a bookmark, then cut and paste the bookmarked
lines only to a second file. A bit of tidying that up would give the
list.

Alastair


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